I saw this on the Just Jazz mailing list (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/justjazz/) and thought it might be useful or interesting. Any comments?


From: David Roberts <david.roberts@t...>
Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 9:57 am
Subject: Tips for connecting the chords

Hi to all,

I have a some Aebersold CDs on which there are some tracks on them where the keys are cycled downwards using a ii-V formula at a tempo of about 110 bps i.e.
|F-7 |Bb7 |Eb-7 |Ab7 |
|Db-7|Gb7 |Cb-7 |Fb7 |etc

I was wondering if anyone had any tips / suggestions / strategies on how you could approach playing over these changes in order to produce a smooth sounding musical melodic line without sounding as if you are doing an exercise (even though you are!). I find myself thinking and playing in one key for the first ii to V sequence and then feel an obvious shift downwards to the next key to hear all the notes relating to the new key. As a result it feels like a lot of 2x bar phrases not joined together well and the obvious key change over-emphrasised. I would rather the solo sound more holistic with the key
changes not over emphrasised in the solo.

TIA

David


From: "Marc Sabatella" <marc@o...>
Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 1:02 pm
Subject: Re: [justjazz] Tips for connecting the chords

I think the basic problem hear in in thinking of, for example, the key of Db as being a step *below* the key of Eb, and thus tending to move
your line downward as well. A key is just a set of notes. The key of Db is not inherently lower than the key of Eb. If ou play a line in Eb, you can answer it with a line in Db that is higher, just as surely as you can answer it with a line that is lower. It will just happen to lie in a different place relative to the scale. You must think of the line first. Actually, it can be useful to think of the difference between Eb and Db in terms of Db being lower, but not in the way you think - Db is two steps flatter on the circle of fifths, meaning the keys consist of the same set of notes but with two of the notes flatted half a step in Db (G in Eb becomes Gb in Db, D in Eb becomes Db in Db). That this is significantly different from the other way of thinking becomes clearer if you consider that while the key of Db is lower than the key of of Eb in this sense, the keys of D and C are bout is *higher* than the key of Eb in this sense.

The most straightforward way to apply this is to imagine how you'd approach the line if it stayed in Eb - Fm7-Bb7-Fm7-Bb7. Play over that, maybe even write out one of the lines you played if you find one you especially like. Now take that line, and flat any G's or D's that occur in the third and fourth bar, and play the line again. This is what I mean about the line coming first, and then adjusting it to fit the key.

> As a result it feels like a lot of 2 x bar
> phrases not joined together well and the obvious key change
> over-emphrasised. I would rather the solo sound more holistic with the key
> changes not over emphrasised in the solo.

Well, there *are* key changes, and if you don't hit them, it isn't going to work too well. But that doesn't mean there is any excuses for not
joining phrases together.

--------------
Marc Sabatella
marc@o...

The Outside Shore
Music, art, & educational materials:
http://www.outsideshore.com/

I think this approach has definite merit, but I'm not sure about the part about just changing the key signature (was he responding to someone there?), but I recommend this kind of "pitch flow chart" kind of approach all the time as a way to rid your lines of ROOTJUMPING. There's a whole theory behind it which is kind of interesting if anyone has eyes for that kind of thing.

Originally posted by Chris Fitzgerald
...There's a whole theory behind it which is kind of interesting if anyone has eyes for that kind of thing.

Interesting. I'm all eyes.

I'd like to read more on this, if anyone is willing to go further into it.

I plan on writing more on this, but right now there's no time. I'm saving a marker in my mailbox for when that time comes. in the meantime, maybe somebody else could explore the topic?

Originally posted by Chris Fitzgerald
I plan on writing more on this, but right now there's no time. I'm saving a marker in my mailbox for when that time comes. in the meantime, maybe somebody else could explore the topic?

Ermm - I'm not sure what you mean - are you talking about concepts like "Guide Tones" - which I know is taught at Berklee?

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield


Ermm - I'm not sure what you mean - are you talking about concepts like "Guide Tones" - which I know is taught at Berklee?


Not really, although they figure into it. I'm talking about looking at key centers in a holistic way that allows lines to be constructed whose shapes and motivic content are independent of the small scale key/scale changes happening at any given moment. But it takes a while to explain.

In a soloing context, my teacher thinks you should aim to change scale associated with the chord so as to be able to play any run, phrase or series of intervals and they will still fit the harmony (or conversly you will have the ability to be deliberately outside the harmony). Ambitious - not that much for a bass player as it is for horns, since a scale is only the chord notes plus the spaces in-between.

But it applies to basslines. What Mark S doesn't mention is where you are going - is it the end of a phrase? what's the soloist up to? do you want it to sound a if its leading to more, or static, or resolving to a close? Doing the above you can stay within a tone or move as much as you want. Purists can get upity if a chord tone isn't on 1 or 3 but .... if it works - context is all.

One other thought, every interval has an inversion, so going down in tones could mean going up a 7th & etc.

Mike - name sounds strangely familiar - ever been to Jazz Summer school at Glamorgan Uni? As you are based in Manchester, it's the only place I can think we could have met?

I find playing through the changes without thinking about the chords too much gives you a smoother feel. I think about the actual key i'm in learn the melody( by ear or reading or both) keep an ear and eye out for the frontline soloplayer and "turn it loose" with the drummer. It's more of a "homemade" approach to playing jazz but it does connect with the other players and swings it hard.

Originally posted by contraman
I find playing through the changes without thinking about the chords too much gives you a smoother feel. I think about the actual key i'm in learn the melody( by ear or reading or both) keep an ear and eye out for the frontline soloplayer and "turn it loose" with the drummer. It's more of a "homemade" approach to playing jazz but it does connect with the other players and swings it hard.

I think this is kind of a "dangerous" approach to advocate..? So - it may work for you, but I think this approach is exactly what causes people to get frustrated at their inability to progress beyond a certain level.

So you might hit on a good line now and again, by chance - but how are you going to plan to build on this or develop those ideas?

The other thing is that you are likely to repeat yourself a lot and only play what feels comfortable or safe - OK, but hardly challenging or interesting....?

If you play with good players who decide to do something different with the tune - re-harmonisations, substitutions etc - then you are probably going to be lost or feel out of your depth?

Overall, I think this is just a recipe to be stuck in a rut!

I think this is kind of a "dangerous" approach to advocate.

I like to live on the edge

.? So - it may work for you, but I think this approach is exactly what causes people to get frustrated at their inability to progress beyond a certain level.

not if you have studied all your scales modes inversions like a good little boy

So you might hit on a good line now and again,

maybe the odd bum note but you learn from your mistakes. It's improvisational for goodness sake!

by chance - but how are you going to plan to build on this or develop those ideas?

I sing them when i solo and build a harmonic line around the soloist!

The other thing is that you are likely to repeat yourself a lot and only play what feels comfortable or safe - OK, but hardly challenging or interesting....?

A minute ago I was taking chances now im a boring old fart....? C'mon man! make up your mind. Fact is most Bass players have signature licks they fall back on. eg Ray brown and his two octave third inversion arpeggio. how many times did he do that on a turnaround . That's something we all recognise.

If you play with good players who decide to do something different with the tune - re-harmonisations, substitutions etc - then you are probably going to be lost or feel out of your depth?

I look at the charts! If unrehearsed I try to simplify what I'm doing and build on it.
I probably would get a little lost because i have I only been playing jazz for a year now. I would stil have a go and give it my best shot.

Overall, I think this is just a recipe to be
stuck in a rut!

Sounds like your argument is very subjective.
That's the thing. I merely explained a state of being when i'm intimately conected to the song. It feels like I am channeling and in turn doing my best to support the band i'm in. I don't proclaim that this is the method for everybody. I don't use this this method all the time either.

I don't have the luxury of going to university so time is of the essense. what do you want me tio do? Shut myself off from the world? That does not mean i don't want to learn and better myself. I can't help it if I have a natural gift. Rest assured I'm working as hard as I can and learning with the small amount of time I have.arial :spit: :D

Originally posted by contraman


A minute ago I was taking chances now im a boring old fart....? C'mon man! make up your mind.

No - you're misreading - I was saying you might come up with a good line by some slim chance - but generally I think you are going to be playing the same stuff that you are comfortable with.

And even if you did hit on something interesting - you have no systematic approach to repeat that or incoporate it into your playing.

The odd mistake doesn't add interest - it just makes people think you're a sloppy player!

As I said - you may be happy with this - but I don't think it is a good approach to advocate to others.

No - you're misreading - I was saying you might come up with a good line by some slim chance - but generally I think you are going to be playing the same stuff that you are comfortable with.

I guess you havent heard me play> i'm evolving> i'm not comfortable with sounding the same every time I play something.

And even if you did hit on something interesting.

- you have no systematic approach to repeat that or incoporate it into your playing.

It sounds like you have been to one of my gigs or you aer insiode my head!what would you suggest

The odd mistake doesn't add interest - it just makes people think you're a sloppy player!

It depends how much fun they are having.
They asked Errol Garner; (who could not read music)what happens if you hit the wrong note?
he answered "I play it again.

As I said - you may be happy with this

I am in the meantime. I feel less stiff and antiquated.

but I don't think it is a good approach to advocate to others.

How do you get in the Zone?

When peoeple are at a learning stage they can't just rely on sheet music.

I see many people without sheet music and they cannot hear thier mojo.

You sound fairly sceptical of peoples ability to find thier own voice. Django Rienhardt was a genius and he could not read music. It was all in his head. Do you actually play Jazz?

Originally posted by contraman


I guess you havent heard me play

If you play anything like you write - I definitely don't want to!! ;)

Stop taking this personally - when I say "you " I mean it as "one" - but that sounds too formal - I am talking generally - not about 'you' personally!!

Stop taking this personally - when I say "you " I mean it as "one" - but that sounds too formal - I am talking generally - not about 'you' personally!!

Well I guess it's how you write it then!:D

I love a good debate.

You fail to acknowledge any good points I bring to the table!

why's that?

Do us all a favour and try and wite in a more positive objective way!:D

How about writing "coherently" - that would help!! ;)

Originally posted by contraman
eg Ray brown and his two octave third inversion arpeggio. how many times did he do that on a turnaround . That's something we all recognise.
So Ray is at the turnaround, and the key is C; Ray plays what?

contraman, it'd be nice if you put the quotes in quotations so we could know what you were writing and what was quoted without looking at the previous message. Right now, alot of your posts read like william carlos williams on a bad day.

Originally posted by lermgalieu
like william carlos williams on a bad day.
Believe it or not, he was the school doctor when I was a wee lad in Rutherford.

Originally posted by Don Higdon
So Ray is at the turnaround, and the key is C; Ray plays what?
eg: How High The Moon Solo key of C. Album: OPT@ stratford shakespereian festival.
quoted from Bass Player.

"On bar 15, Ray play's one of his trademark 2 octave, arpeggiated runs up the bass. He uses the open G on the & of beat 2 and a G harmonic on the end of beat 4."

I maybe wrong on the "inversion" theory. To me though it sounded like an inversion because beat 1 is a D with the & of beat 1 as a B natural the 2 & is C E & G eight note triplet. 3 & 4 & is B,D,E,G(harmonic tone) over Am7. The next note is a B on the & of the first beat.

Another example of this is "have you met miss jones" of the album " We Get Requests(In a different key and sounding similar).

I'm sure you will advise me if I have made a mistake. In fact, I would apprieciate it.

Bruce I hope I'm becoming more articulate and "Cohearent" if that is the right word.


:D ;) :bassist:

Originally posted by contraman
.C'mon man! make up your mind. Fact is most Bass players have signature licks they fall back on. eg Ray brown and his two octave third inversion arpeggio. how many times did he do that on a turnaround . That's something we all recognise.
Addressing this and your response to my question immediately above on this page:
The performance you cite is in G, not C. Ray's run is not "his two octave third inversion arpeggio." Your D is not the 7th (third inversion connotes a 4 note chord, the 4th note usually being the 7th note of the scale from which the chord is spelled). Try this: Ray plays a D on beat 1 (and 3-and) of the bar, and lo and behold, so does the melody of How High the Moon. Duh. It's a C chord with two passing tones, a IV on the way to a V7, or the relative minor of the IV, an Am11 with the root implied. Who cares?
The other example (Miss Jones) you give to support your borrowed claim is a descending run, not ascending. Your idea of what constitutes a "signature lick" is too loose to have credence, even if to you it "sounds similar."
Under questioning, you moved from your (prior page) condescending response to Bruce, a working bassist, to quoting from a magazine that doesn't say quite the same thing as you did, side-stepping your own little flourish ("how many times did he do that on a turnaround" - as if your rhetorical question observed some self-evident truth that he and I were missing), for what purpose I don't know beyond trying to appear breezy and hip.

Originally posted by Don Higdon
Addressing this and your response to my question immediately above on this page:
The performance you cite is in G, not C. Ray's run is not "his two octave third inversion arpeggio." Your D is not the 7th (third inversion connotes a 4 note chord, the 4th note usually being the 7th note of the scale from which the chord is spelled). Try this: Ray plays a D on beat 1 (and 3-and) of the bar, and lo and behold, so does the melody of How High the Moon. Duh. It's a C chord with two passing tones, a IV on the way to a V7, or the relative minor of the IV, an Am11 with the root implied. Who cares?
The other example (Miss Jones) you give to support your borrowed claim is a descending run, not ascending. Your idea of what constitutes a "signature lick" is too loose to have credence, even if to you it "sounds similar."
Under questioning, you moved from your (prior page) condescending response to Bruce, a working bassist, to quoting from a magazine that doesn't say quite the same thing as you did, side-stepping your own little flourish ("how many times did he do that on a turnaround" - as if your rhetorical question observed some self-evident truth that he and I were missing), for what purpose I don't know beyond trying to appear breezy and hip.

Thanks for your help! Did not mean to get anyones nose out of joint.;)

Crikey! ...and I thought it was tense in EB!!!

So, Bruce are you working, like getting paid more than a nominal amount then?
I got a paid a few months back - two beers, a burger and £30 for a blues rock gig... but I'm still out of pocket as a bassist ;)

Back to the start: CF said
I recommend this kind of "pitch flow chart" kind of approach all the time as a way to rid your lines of ROOTJUMPING. There's a whole theory behind it which is kind of interesting if anyone has eyes for that kind of thing.

Well, I feel my lines could often be decribed as rootjumping - and probably in a rather in a clumsy way - so when you do post on this theory I'd be intersted to hear it too... even if it is a bit too advanced at my stage of the game :)

Personally, I find a smoother sounding line can often be created by playing through the chords horizontally rather than vertically - but then I am playing real basic stuff, at a basic level - so I guess it's much easier at this stage?

Also, with new material, I frequently sit down and write out every chord, the look at the notes in each chord (I have to do this on paper as I cant do it in my head, yet), but this way I find all those nice semi-tone changes between chord tones - and shared chord tones, and that often helps create a smoother, more flowing line.

Heck I dunno!?!

Interested anyway, bring it on...

Originally posted by Howard K
So, Bruce are you working, like getting paid more than a nominal amount then?
I got a paid a few months back - two beers, a burger and £30 for a blues rock gig... but I'm still out of pocket as a bassist ;)



Eh? :confused:

The large latin band charges between £700 and £1500 for a gig - but there's a lot of us!! ;)

Originally posted by Don Higdon
Addressing this and your response to my question immediately above on this page:
The performance you cite is in G, not C. Ray's run is not "his two octave third inversion arpeggio." Your D is not the 7th (third inversion connotes a 4 note chord, the 4th note usually being the 7th note of the scale from which the chord is spelled).

At the time I was thinking the D was leading into the B which is the 7th of C. I could hear an inversion there!

Try this: Ray plays a D on beat 1 (and 3-and) of the bar, and lo and behold, so does the melody of How High the Moon. Duh. It's a C chord with two passing tones, a IV on the way to a V7, or the relative minor of the IV, an Am11 with the root implied.

Who cares?

I think we all care. Or is that a rhetorical question!

The other example (Miss Jones) you give to support your borrowed claim is a descending run, not ascending.

I used the wrong word I meant acscending wich it is!

Your idea of what constitutes a "signature lick" is too loose to have credence, even if to you it "sounds similar."

It really depends if you are looking at the differences or similarities
You can't deny when you hear that you can't say "That dosen't sound like Ray!".

moved from your (prior page) condescending response to Bruce, a working bassist, to quoting from a magazine that doesn't say quite the same thing as you did, side-stepping your own little flourish ("how many times did he do that on a turnaround" - as if your rhetorical question observed some self-evident truth that he and I were missing)

When Bruce made a general comment about repeating licks and getting stuck in a rut I was merely trying to illustrate that even the best Bass players have licks they used to define their playing style.

It seems like a natural reaction when one's ego takes a battering. I took what bruce said personally. My perception was that Bruce seemed to want shoot everything down I had said. You are right about me not saying the same thing as the magazine. I was trying articulate what I heard.
Failing to acknowledge anything I had to say that had credence seemed a little harsh. I'm not trying make any enemies here.

what purpose I don't know beyond trying to appear breezy and hip. [/B]

It appears you don't have all the answers!

The large latin band charges between £700 and £1500 for a gig - but there's a lot of us!!

Yeah, I kinda meant, has your situation changed - from being a part-time bassist and full-time marketeer to vice versa, innit :) nevermind, jus messing aboot

Originally posted by Howard K
Yeah, I kinda meant, has your situation changed - from being a part-time bassist and full-time marketeer to vice versa, innit :) nevermind, jus messing aboot

Ah - I see now - it was Don's phrase "A Working Bassist"....:hmm:

Yes - that is entirely accurate - I work and I am a bassist!

But as you are no doubt implying - my day job pays far more than I could ever hope to make from playing Latin Jazz!! ;)

Yes, a bassist that works properly.. as opposed to a broken one :)