Do luthiers consider it "cheating" to order preshaped bodies and necks from Warmoth? Or do some luthiers order from Warmoth and make basses at a cheaper price. Why or why not do luthiers use Warmoth, or Carvin, or Moses etc?

I'm sure some luthiers consider it cheating. But some well respected luthiers outsource their necks and even bodies. Some are obviously not outsourced, some hard to tell. Only way to know for sure is to ask.

Those who build their own necks probably do so to have complete control over the instrument, including the shaping and materials. That's why I do it, plus I generally enjoy the entire process.

i guess it's generally up to the individual definition of cheating in this case...i personally think that using CNC machines is cheating. sure you have to program them and know what you're doing, but the machine is doing the work for you.

there isn't anything wrong with ordering parts from carvin or warmoth...just as long as you don't pretend to be some hot shot luthier. moses is a bit different, because i don't really know of many people who construct their own graphite necks.

Originally posted by skguitarsbasses
i guess it's generally up to the individual definition of cheating in this case...i personally think that using CNC machines is cheating.


But you cant get your neck pocket and pup routing aligned to +/-.001" without one :p

I know what you're saying- I enjoyed shaping my body by hand and don't feel that I would have as much personal attachment to it if I would have CNC'ed the body shape and contours. OTOH, builders like PRS must use CNC's to meet the demand for the guitars- once a builder becomes well known, their instruments cannot all go solely through their hands; they have to hire help, outsource, etc. to meet demands. I would prefer handmade over machine cut for myself, but if it's the same wood, same shape, the CNC is just saving time.

I think calling a CNC cheating would be like calling it cheating to use a power drill- why sell out.... we should still be using hand crank drills like the amish :rolleyes: :D

I do agree that the CNC takes the personal touch away though.

in my opinion, if the machine is doing the work, then a part of the personal artistic touch of making the instrument is taken away.

i also think that if you're spitting instruments out on CNC machines, the price should be dropped considerably. it's like using a xerox machine on a picasso and still charging an obscene amount of money for it.

call me a curmudgeon, but mass produced instruments just leave me very cold and uninterested. give me something that someone has carved by hand and labored over for 20+ hours any day.

I have "built" a few basses for customers in the past from Warmoth necks and bodies, and they either were aware of Warmoth and wanted them but either didn't have the time and/or skills and/or tools to finish them, build them out and set them up themselves, and I was able to finish them and build them up for them.

At no time did I or would I ever attempt to potray their necks and/or bodies as my own.

:^)~

Originally posted by Ian Hall


it if I would have CNC'ed the body shape and contours. OTOH, builders like PRS must use CNC's to meet the demand for the guitars- once a builder



What's "OTOH"?
just wondering......

on the other hand

Thank you sir,

I don't understand why people don't like CNC.

I'd like to use some!!!

Ok, when you build masses (not only one) you usually use templates. For example for body shapes, I use a MDF template and a ball bearing router bit. The template is guiding my router bit, I'm just pushing the router.... what's artistic in there??? What the difference between guiding the router bit with a template or a computer...wait, I know the difference is precision and consistency.

The artistic nd technic part is in the design of the bass and in the wood choices.

CNC are definitely worth it. Still a bit expensive but more an more builders use $10,000 custom made machine that work great. I'd love to have one to build my basses. Definitely.


Peace, JP

Originally posted by JP Basses
I don't understand why people don't like CNC.

I'd like to use some!!!

Ok, when you build masses (not only one) you usually use templates. For example for body shapes, I use a MDF template and a ball bearing router bit. The template is guiding my router bit, I'm just pushing the router.... what's artistic in there??? What the difference between guiding the router bit with a template or a computer...wait, I know the difference is precision and consistency.

The artistic nd technic part is in the design of the bass and in the wood choices.

CNC are definitely worth it. Still a bit expensive but more an more builders use $10,000 custom made machine that work great. I'd love to have one to build my basses. Definitely.


Peace, JP

JP, I think your thinking is right on the money. After all, it's the quality of the design that attracts the eye and it's the precision of it's manufacture that keeps the interest. The real funny thing is that no one would begrudge a builder the use of a computer in a bass design. So, if the design is done on a computer, the only way to carry that precision to the construction is to use CAD/CAM machines.

I've built basses using CAD/CAM routers and by all hand work. I enjoy both and would defy anyone to discern the difference by viewing the finished product. So, since you can't SEE the difference, and you certainly can't HEAR any difference, just how important is it really that a precision machine is used in it's manufacture? Not much in my book.

And finally, the original question goes to using pre-made parts in bass construction. This is perfectly OK in my book also for all of the reasons mentioned above. Besides, Warmoth makes a neck that I personally can't replicate with my current level of building skill. I am NOT going to postpone a project that I'm driven to complete while I work on my neck building skills by trial and error. Life is just too short. And I wouldn't pass one off as my own and don't.

Originally posted by Hambone
...
After all, it's the quality of the design that attracts the eye and it's the precision of it's manufacture that keeps the interest.
... Well said. If your design is good, why not execute perfectly every time? The only way I would think doing it all by hand (and not using templates, which is similar to using CNC, only more difficult) would be an advantage would be a rare case where you are actually working out the design as you carve it - like a sculptor. And I doubt many people who achieve good results do it that way - possibly Carl Thompson, and even he may use templates.

I don't think CNC machines are "cheating" anymore than I think using a router instead of a chisel and mallet is cheating. Much of the quality of the instrument comes down to what happens before and after you cut wood. Material selection, customization, quality control at every step - that's where you get your value from a custom build, not what's pushing a blade.

Perhaps CNC machines have a bad name because they're associated with high volume production lines. I feel it's not the machine that has caused the bad name, but the other compromises that go into high volume production.

well, in defending my position on this-
if you're solely in the business of making guitars for the profit then CNC machines as well as outsourcing to foreign markets is pretty much the easiest way of mass production to equal profit.

but i am personally doing it for the fact that i love making the instruments by hand. i do use a router for neck pockets, pickups, electronics cavities and to cut the top and back to size relative of the middle wood. but i do all of the actual shaping by hand with a rasp and spend hours doing so. i enjoy doing that aspect, and i don't think that i would ever go the route of using CNC machines.

i think they are great for achieving precision and profit...but since when has art been about precision?

i would want to pay for a perfect bass

and over time you would hope that an experienced luthier would be able to produce a fully functioning and attractive instrument that is as close to perfect as they can humanly make it.

but if i'm going to spend my hard earned money on a bass, i'm definitely going to buy something made by Carl Thompson, or Ken Bebensee...not some carbon copy fender that a computer produced.

maybe i'm the only one that is not up for turning all of the fun over to machines

Originally posted by skguitarsbasses
and over time you would hope that an experienced luthier would be able to produce a fully functioning and attractive instrument that is as close to perfect as they can humanly make it.

but if i'm going to spend my hard earned money on a bass, i'm definitely going to buy something made by Carl Thompson, or Ken Bebensee...not some carbon copy fender that a computer produced.

maybe i'm the only one that is not up for turning all of the fun over to machines

http://www.thornguitars.com

Check those guitars....works of art definitely and not comparable to what you call" carbon copy fender"

You guessed it, heavy use of CNC there but no mass product!! Ron knows his sh£$!t and does the best use of technology

Peace, JP

not a carbon copy fender there, but does look just like a PRS or double cut away Les Paul...

i appreciate his wood choice, the composition, the inlay and the attention to detail...but for christ's sake, make something that looks original.

jp, i like your basses because they don't look like anyone else's basses, and you do use router bits to round the edges and so forth, but at least it's your hands guiding the instrument- there is a human factor there that is absent when you program a machine to do the work for you and then just leave it to do it's thing.

Originally posted by skguitarsbasses
i appreciate his wood choice, the composition, the inlay and the attention to detail...but for christ's sake, make something that looks original.

jp, i like your basses because they don't look like anyone else's basses, and you do use router bits to round the edges and so forth, but at least it's your hands guiding the instrument- there is a human factor there that is absent when you program a machine to do the work for you and then just leave it to do it's thing.

Sorry, my hands are holding the router but the templates are guiding it...

Ton makes double cutaway guitars that you compare with PRS and so on. Maybe he just choosed to build what sells. He could build whatever shape he want with his machine.

Peace, JP

Just FYI, when machining in hard woods like ebony, etc., a tolerance of .001" isn't hard to get at all.

When you have a neck pocket that fits perfectly, just slightly snug; it means that the pocket is approximately .001"-.002" too small, causing a snug fit. That doesn't involve any fine sanding for adjustment or guesswork as with a router/template technique- with a CNC, as long as you use quality wood that isn't going to be moving around a lot, it'll be perfect fit every time- that's why I like 'em.

Like I said though, I can definitely relate to the viewpoint that the NC machine cutting can take some of the "handmade" aspect away.

If you think about it though, almost any major high-end builder you can think of uses at least one CNC cut template for their hand routing, and I fail to see any way that detracts from the quality of their products.

You do lose the human factor when you can sit and eat a bag of doritos while the machine is cutting your body out though:D

"Sorry, my hands are holding the router but the templates are guiding it... "
- regardless of that fact, at least there are human arms holding the equipment

why don't we all just get a bunch of computers and have everyone program to make the same instrument over and over ad nauseum? where is the enjoyment in that?

i understand that he is making what sells, but how boring is that?
sure it pays the bills, but i'd like to think that there is a lot more to life than just making money. such as creativity..originality...sure he could make any shape he wants with his shiny computer- but he doesn't. he makes something that multiple companies make.

i don't see why people insist on utilizing current technology to re-invent yesterday's wheel

Well, there certainly is more to life than making money but don't underestimate how good food and shelter are. Luckily for me building is not my primary source of income. If it was I probably wouldn't have time to anything BUT build, which would leave little time for the other things in life... The point is that I can carve a neck with a spokeshave and scraper. I am excellent with a handplane. Would using CNC be a cop out? No, I don't think so, because I have the skills. Just because I love doing something doesn't mean I want to do it 12 hours a day. (NOTE: I don't have any CNC machine equipment but it would be nice...)

Originally posted by gyancey
Well, there certainly is more to life than making money but don't underestimate how good food and shelter are. Luckily for me building is not my primary source of income. If it was I probably wouldn't have time to anything BUT build, which would leave little time for the other things in life... The point is that I can carve a neck with a spokeshave and scraper. I am excellent with a handplane. Would using CNC be a cop out? No, I don't think so, because I have the skills. Just because I love doing something doesn't mean I want to do it 12 hours a day. (NOTE: I don't have any CNC machine equipment but it would be nice...)

Right on Greg ;)

Peace, JP

i've probably taken the arguement too far, especially for only having 2 years of building experience

but i do have a distinct opinion on this subject. i appreciate everyone's tolerance in debating it!

i can definitely understand the use of the machines for a monetary standpoint, and if instrument making is your sole source of income, then that would probably be your best bet.

i just don't want to look up some day and see that all bass makers are utilizing computers to make a homoegenous product.

call me old fashioned, i just appreciate hand crafted instruments

I do understand that there is a satisfaction in doing it all by hand that would be lost if a machine did the work.

I think there may be another idea operating here - that CNCs are associated with boring, look-alike, clone bodies. This need not be the case. If JP or Greg Yancey had access to the proper CNC equipment, they could make their unique body shapes, in less time, and with less opportunity to screw up. Maybe they'd miss the interaction with the wood like skguitarsbasses puts forth, and maybe they wouldn't. That's up to each individual person. The bodies would turn out visually identical to the observer, though, and the fit might possibly be better.

Another example is Warwicks. Very unique, original shapes, all kinds of varying rounding, contoured backs and fronts. CNC made, but I'll bet that the prototypes, whether they were done by hand or by programming, took a lot of time and care and thought. And to me anyway, they look at least as handmade as the majority of handmade basses - certainly moreso than the handmade Fender clones.

Man!! that's a CNC'ed thread!!!

I can sit here and see all those post came out just the way I wanted them :D

lol

Word Peter!

gret thread we have here indeed

Peace, JP

i'm in a possibly unique position in that i run a cnc router (shopbot) daily, doing 100% custom work. each shape is individually programmed, and i haven't had an exact duplicate yet in almost two years of doing this. i appreciate the ease of the cnc, but i also agree that there is a satisfaction in hand work.

on the bass i'm building, i've avoided using the cnc, with the exception of the fingerboard, where i wanted the accuracy the cnc gives me. but even that will be touched up by hand in the end.

my issue with mass produced instruments is the design, not the technique. prs, fender, etc. all make good instruments, but i don't think any compare to the best custom basses out there because the custom builder (hopefully) has artistry as a first consideration and profit as a secondary factor.

that being said, i think the cnc is a tool just like any other, and it is the skill and imagination of the builder that determines the end result. OTOH, i firmly believe that someone who can't run a handheld router will never be able to do great work on an automated one, because the real difficulty lies in understanding the wood, feed rates, and rpm.

and anyone who's getting .001" tolerances on a cnc with wood is a better operator than i!

Why, of course using machined parts is heavy cheating!

It's like....well....it's like using a car to go shopping!


Seriously, 100% ahndwork is impressive on it's own, but once you have played a bass for 60 years, you don't care howit was made. What matters is, that it was so well made that you couldn't make yourself change to another one, for such a long time.

Originally posted by JP Basses
Man!! that's a CNC'ed thread!!!

I can sit here and see all those post came out just the way I wanted them :D

...
:D :D

Originally posted by pilotjones
I do understand that there is a satisfaction in doing it all by hand that would be lost if a machine did the work.

I think there may be another idea operating here - that CNCs are associated with boring, look-alike, clone bodies.

Counterpoint to Warwick, as you noted.

I really think it's not so much the shape or originality of the body as the lack of attention during the build. If a maker uses CNC, they're more than likely looking for economy of scale. That might imply they're also looking for other economies, as well. They're just not going to do the hand-selection, the close-up inspection, the fine-tuning, the last buff and polish... To me, that's the negative association with CNC.

I also think we've diverged in the discussion between player satisfaction and builder satisfaction somewhat. For me, I'd LOVE to have a piece of wood come out exactly as I intended every time (noted by the stack of miscuts in my garage...) but I really would miss the sights, sounds and smells of a sharp blade passing through a beautiful piece of hardwood.

Since I have been around both CNC production and hand work and do most everything by hand now I thought I'd add my $.02.

You have to remember that a CNC is run and programmed by a HUMAN. If that person does not have the proper experience with the type of wood he's cutting or an eye for detail the product that comes off the machine will be hit and miss and he'll throw half of them away.
When using a CNC you have to make sure that you have all the correct bits in the tool changer, that the head height and alignment is correct relative to the bed, and that you align the work piece properly on the table. If any one of these things is off you can count on throwing that quilted maple and alder blank in the trash.
Oh, and you also have to make sure you have the right program running. When you cut 5 variaions of a strat body and the customer selects his wood and then you cut the wrong bridge rout guess what? Big loss. You now have a body you most likely don't have an order for and you have an upset customer.
Then there's feed rate related to type of wood. Have you ever seen a quilted maple carve top fresh off the machine? In my experience there's a LOT of sanding to do after the body is cut. Enough that the skill of the person sanding plays a very big role.
I have personal experience with all of these things(I was not the operator though, just an employee).

So, as a case in point that CNC cut parts can end up as handmade feeling instruments just look at Tom Anderson or John Suhr. Sure, you get part after part off the machine, but that's really only just the beginning. Trust me, there's a LOT of skill that goes into these instruments after they come off the machine. And these guys are known for the "feel" (a very human notion) of their guitars.

So, would I use a CNC is I could afford one? Sure, but I'd have to be pretty rich, because not only would I have to buy the machine, but I'd have to learn how to program it and run it and that would cost a lot of time and money.
I do things the way I do them now because it's the most efficient way for me to produce a quality product. And trust me, if you want to make a living at this efficiency is VERY important. The notion of carving away at a piece of wood with hand tools for two or more hours until it's just right is very romantic and nice, but if I can do the same thing in 15 minutes with a CNC or templates that's what I'll do. You've got to ship instruments to keep the doors open.

Ok, I'll get off my soapbox now. Sorry for the rant...

Originally posted by Carey
Since I have been around both CNC production and hand work and do most everything by hand now I thought I'd add my $.02.

You have to remember that a CNC is run and programmed by a HUMAN. If that person does not have the proper experience with the type of wood he's cutting or an eye for detail the product that comes off the machine will be hit and miss and he'll throw half of them away.
When using a CNC you have to make sure that you have all the correct bits in the tool changer, that the head height and alignment is correct relative to the bed, and that you align the work piece properly on the table. If any one of these things is off you can count on throwing that quilted maple and alder blank in the trash.
Oh, and you also have to make sure you have the right program running. When you cut 5 variaions of a strat body and the customer selects his wood and then you cut the wrong bridge rout guess what? Big loss. You now have a body you most likely don't have an order for and you have an upset customer.
Then there's feed rate related to type of wood. Have you ever seen a quilted maple carve top fresh off the machine? In my experience there's a LOT of sanding to do after the body is cut. Enough that the skill of the person sanding plays a very big role.
I have personal experience with all of these things(I was not the operator though, just an employee).

So, as a case in point that CNC cut parts can end up as handmade feeling instruments just look at Tom Anderson or John Suhr. Sure, you get part after part off the machine, but that's really only just the beginning. Trust me, there's a LOT of skill that goes into these instruments after they come off the machine. And these guys are known for the "feel" (a very human notion) of their guitars.

So, would I use a CNC is I could afford one? Sure, but I'd have to be pretty rich, because not only would I have to buy the machine, but I'd have to learn how to program it and run it and that would cost a lot of time and money.
I do things the way I do them now because it's the most efficient way for me to produce a quality product. And trust me, if you want to make a living at this efficiency is VERY important. The notion of carving away at a piece of wood with hand tools for two or more hours until it's just right is very romantic and nice, but if I can do the same thing in 15 minutes with a CNC or templates that's what I'll do. You've got to ship instruments to keep the doors open.

Ok, I'll get off my soapbox now. Sorry for the rant...

:)

very, very nice!

Originally posted by mslatter


If a maker uses CNC, they're more than likely looking for economy of scale. That might imply they're also looking for other economies, as well. They're just not going to do the hand-selection, the close-up inspection, the fine-tuning, the last buff and polish... To me, that's the negative association with CNC.


Not trying to be difficult, but why would this implication necessarily follow? I'm not a builder, but it seems to me that using a CNC machine to do some of the grunt work could actually free you up to do *more* of that other stuff--wood selection, fine tuning, etc--that you're talking about. Thus resulting in instruments that can be just as good in every sense and sometimes even better.

Back to the original post -

I would think that if you start with pre-fab parts (Warmouth, etc.), you are a bass builder. You can't be a luthier unless you start with a raw block of wood. Once you start with the raw materials, in my estimation, there are any number of legitimate ways to move from idea to finished creation.

What about luthier who buys neck-thru blank necks and then sculpts the body and does everything else?

I'd agree that "luthier" is a very overused and ever-more-meaningless term these days. Sure there is skill required in assembling, finishing, wiring, and setting up a package of manufactured parts, but it's quite different that starting from "here's a piece of wood that looks nice...." :)

Individual hand-building luthiers do have the upper hand on CNC manufacturers when it comes to one-off designs tailored and carved to a particular player's request. We can offer a lot of options, but you get to a certain point of customization where programming and retooling become unreasonably expensive for small projects. For a hand-builder, almost everything's equally easy or difficult to pull off.

The strengths of CNC manufacturing are precision and consistency, which can be very good qualities in a finished instrument. However, getting great precision and detail in a one-off, custom-from-scratch design is the realm of a skilled luthier building by hand.

FWIW, I'm about to get my feet wet with a pre-fab build and feel really good about it. Do I mind that the body I ordered was CNC'ed? No. Will there still be a hands-on relationship between myself and the end result? Absolutely. Positioning the bridge, shaping and slotting the nut, drilling to attach the neck, applying a finish, wiring, all these things are aspects of building. I guess my point is it's all about choices, whether a player is choosing an instrument off-the-shelf, or I'm making a parts list for a pre-fab build, or a luthier is picking out a slab of mahogany. To get back to the quote that started the thread:

"Do luthiers consider it "cheating" to order preshaped bodies and necks from Warmoth? Or do some luthiers order from Warmoth and make basses at a cheaper price. Why or why not do luthiers use Warmoth, or Carvin, or Moses etc?"

That right there is a severely loaded question in my opinion beacause you first need to eshtablish what your definition of a luthier is. To me, to be a luthier is to be skilled at every aspect of the creation of an instrument from beginning to end. If I get a Warmoth neck and put it on a body I built from scratch, I'm a builder. Cheater? Depends on who you ask. The crux of it is, if I claimed to be a luthier without being able to build that neck myself, then I'd be a liar.
Hope I didn't make too many moot points.

-RH

I don't see how CNC machines force a homogenous product.

Point in case:

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/attachment.php?s=&postid=773756

Almost all the wood cutting on this bass was done with a CNC machine.

I would say that the detail, artistry and precision on this bass really cannot be compared to many mass produced basses built on CNC machines. Therefore I find it close minded to stereotype all basses built on CNC machines to some of the statements I have seen in this thread.

Geoff

Rather than try to include or exclude all of the things a luthier could be or not, use the dictionary definition as gospel. Then think of it this way - there are all levels of skill, participation, productivity, and motive in being a "musician". Do you have to do it well to be a "musician"? - No. Do you have to do it professionally to be a "musician"? - No. Is it necessary to be respected or popular by your playing music? - No. As far as a definition, all you have to do is sing or play an instrument to be a "musician". It's the same for "luthier".

It really serves no purpose to argue the definition since it's simple enough to understand completely.

Getting on to other opinions about CNC machines. Almost to a man, those with opinions against the use of heavy equipment in bass making have held, as a large component of their argument, that there is something different about the way THEY approach their instruments from a guy that designs and fabs on a computer. Why is there this distinction? I love designing on the computer, I dream it, then render it in a precise fashion for later production. I am driven to do this - I HAVE to do this - I would die if I couldn't do this. How is this connection I have with my design any different from the connection a devout hand builder would have with his instruments? If you are intellectually honest, you would have to agree nothing is different. Just as you would know every single nuance of your design, so do I. I have envisioned and drawn every single plane, joint, and transition of the body and neck. Then, after the neck is fashioned, I compare it to the perfect version I keep in my head. If it's right, I'll know it - the same way a hand builder would - by feel and having a real connection with my product.

So, you see, whether you're using a hammer and chisel, a planer and a router, or bits and bytes and more bits, the connection to the instrument is the main thing here.

It really serves no purpose to argue the definition since it's simple enough to understand completely.

Sorry if I came off sounding like arguing. I reacted to the original question as more of a matter of semantics, rather than a moral dilema. The pursuit of an agreed upon definition is a way to clarify. The term "luthier" is most deffinately morphing as methods evolve. Such as the use of CNC. So I thought it valid to introduce the idea that a definition is in flux that, by it's nature, could include or exclude certain practices. I get the feeling that to some, tradition is at stake. Technology usualy has a way of forcing re-defining.

As far as setting forth the criteria to designate someone a musician as an example, that would probably flare up twice as much as spokeshave vs. CNC. Very delicate. There again, without an agreed upon definition, it depends on who you ask. So there really is no answer, only opinions.
Which is why we have discussion forums.
use the dictionary definition as gospel. Please don't take this as sarcastic, but I have to say that I don't own one, or I would've looked it up.:rolleyes:

Not fanning flames, just warming up.

-RH

i'm pretty sure you have a few dictionaries at your disposal
www.dictionary.com
and
www.m-w.com
are the more popular ones

Originally posted by Hambone
...
Almost to a man, those with opinions against the use of heavy equipment in bass making have held, as a large component of their argument, that there is something different about the way THEY approach their instruments from a guy that designs and fabs on a computer. Why is there this distinction? I love designing on the computer, I dream it, then render it in a precise fashion for later production. I am driven to do this - I HAVE to do this - I would die if I couldn't do this.
...
Just as you would know every single nuance of your design, so do I. I have envisioned and drawn every single plane, joint, and transition of the body and neck. Then, after the neck is fashioned, I compare it to the perfect version I keep in my head. If it's right, I'll know it - the same way a hand builder would - by feel and having a real connection with my product.
...Truth.

Originally posted by clef360
i'm pretty sure you have a few dictionaries at your disposal
www.dictionary.com
and
www.m-w.com
are the more popular ones

Honestly, for all the use I make of the web, I never thought of that. Thanks!
No more taking the "definition" angle for me.

You mean a luthier is someone who makes or repairs stringed instruments using an annual European species of brome grass (Bromus secalinus) widely naturalized in temperate regions?!?!

Cheaper than snakewood, I s'pose.


:D
-RH

Originally posted by Richard Lindsey


Not trying to be difficult, but why would this implication necessarily follow? I'm not a builder, but it seems to me that using a CNC machine to do some of the grunt work could actually free you up to do *more* of that other stuff--wood selection, fine tuning, etc--that you're talking about. Thus resulting in instruments that can be just as good in every sense and sometimes even better.

Oh, I agree. It wouldn't necessarily follow. It just often does.

Originally posted by RyanHelms

You mean a luthier is someone who makes or repairs stringed instruments using an annual European species of brome grass (Bromus secalinus) widely naturalized in temperate regions?!?!

Cheaper than snakewood, I s'pose.


:D
-RH

Dang!, is that what your dictionary said??:confused:

I've been doing it with Bromus pecalaris all this time!

We do everything by hand. IMO, CNC would just make the whole bass building process boring......*yawn*

Originally posted by Geoff St. Germaine
I don't see how CNC machines force a homogenous product.

Point in case:

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/attachment.php?s=&postid=773756

Almost all the wood cutting on this bass was done with a CNC machine.

I would say that the detail, artistry and precision on this bass really cannot be compared to many mass produced basses built on CNC machines. Therefore I find it close minded to stereotype all basses built on CNC machines to some of the statements I have seen in this thread.

Geoff Such is the high level of artistry and craftsmanship on that Dingwall that I never would have guessed that it was CNC'd. I would say that that bass, combined with Carey's comments on how much hand-making and feel go into a handmade/CNC bass, should put to rest any arguments that use of CNC removes the "humanity" from the instrument.

Originally posted by mikgag
We do everything by hand. IMO, CNC would just make the whole bass building process boring......*yawn*

You might have a different view if you were to do some CAD/CAM design for yourself. Take it from someone that's been there - you can screw up just as well with the technology as you can with a hand-held tool. And isn't recovering from such a mistake part of what makes building so exhilirating?

Besides, I would never find it boring to get the kind of raves about my instrument like the Dingwall above gets.

I suppose a "real" luthier carves his own tuning pegs. I'm cloddish enough to want machine-built tuners. Maybe a "real" luthier gathers his own meteorites, pounds them into wire, and draws it into the profile of a fret using his teeth. Maybe he even guts his own cats for strings. I ain't paying for any of that. Otherwise, I don't much care how an axe gets built. I just want the complete involvement of a great mind in its execution. And if I'm not enough of a player to know the difference, tough on me.

Dang!, is that what your dictionary said??I've been doing it with Bromus pecalaris all this time!
Well ya know, one man's Bromus pecalaris is another's Bromus secalinus. ;)


I suppose a "real" luthier carves his own tuning pegs. I'm cloddish enough to want machine-built tuners. Maybe a "real" luthier gathers his own meteorites, pounds them into wire, and draws it into the profile of a fret using his teeth. Maybe he even guts his own cats for strings.

LMAO!! Duuuuude. With his teeth?!?!?!?

-RH

Yes, with his teeth... that's what a real luthier would do;)

I think Carey nailed it, it's looked at as less "romantic".

IMO...

CNC is a tool. Period. It's not an evil tool, it has no mind of it's own, at midnight all of the CNCs don't get together to plot the assimilation of all Wishbasses (I have proof), there hasn't been more than three or four recorded times where CNCs came up with their own programs and turned a potential Dingwall into a Jazz clone. Four tops.

As far as what the luthier/builder/ part-time beautician does whilst the CNC is CNCing, I guess on some level that is important, though I really can't imagine why? Would I be aghast if it were revealed to me with photographic proof that while my luthier was CNCing he was also painting his girlfriend's toenails? You might be... not me;)

The CNC could free the luthier up to spend even more time inhaling paint fumes or doing finish shaping or fretwork or any number of things where his/her time might possibly be better spent.

For me, how the luthier/builder/part-time beautician arrived at their final product is inconsequential. I want a bass that sounds great, plays easily and is sturdily build.

Cheating would be rebadging knockoff hardware as it's name brand inspiration. By some of the logic here you'd have to assign different levels to cheating when cutting wood...

CNC... really cheating
Bandsaws/routers/etc... Tim Allen-esque, not so bad cheating
Hand saws/rasps/awls, etc... close but no cigar
Bare hands... now "that's" luthiering!!
:bassist: :p

I'm guessing that no one would have value issues with a $2,000 bass that was built from raw wood using the ancient luthing art known as fisticuffs.