Simple music theory questions with which to impose (thanks in advance for your kindness):

Do 9th and 11th chords assume b7 as part of the chord?
Sus4 chords - does only the second note get raised a half step, or do both the second and third note get raised a half step? If the latter is false does one say, for example, Asus #5 to cover it or would this construction be covered by changing the root and doing the A/whatever?
Dim chords - do min b5 chords always get called dim chords instead?

I never thought much about this music theory stuff before, but I just recently picked up a Hal Leonard fake book and was running though tunes on the piano and enjoying the sound of some chords where the melody helped to spell them out. Its really cool to finally see that kind of stuff.

Well, I know now that you can stack another minor 3rd on a dim chord, and that wouldn't let it be a min b5 chord...could it be a min b5 bb7 chord then?

Dim chords are 1, b3, b5, bb7(6). They are symmetrical at the minor third. Min b5 would be a half-diminished chord.

9th and 11th chords are dominant chords with a b7.

In some places you may see a maj9 chord which implies a major 7 chord with a 9 above it. take further to the 13.

in a sus chord, only the second note is raised.
1 4 5 b7.
I tink they call it a sus4 chord because the major 3rd is raised to a 4th.

I can't say I've ever seen a sus#5 chord, maybe because it would be easier to call it a minor 11 chord with a 5th in the bass or something like that.
think of taking the D, making that the root and writing it D-11/A

Originally posted by Perplexer
I can't say I've ever seen a sus#5 chord, maybe because it would be easier to call it a minor 11 chord with a 5th in the bass or something like that.
think of taking the D, making that the root and writing it D-11/A

Wouldn't it just be a minor chord inverted? In C, you'd have C F and G# (Ab), which would be a 2nd inversion Fm triad...

So do I have it correct if I say a C half-diminished chord would be spelled C,Eb, F, Bb, and a C dim chord would be spelled C,Eb,F,A?

How does one indicate a half-dim chord in a fake book? Would it be an o with a slash, C 1/2dim or something?

With inverted chords - does that get indicated too, or is it a matter of spelling it out somehow with an added note and it's up to the reader to deduce that?

Thanks very much,
Johnny

Originally posted by Johnny L


How does one indicate a half-dim chord in a fake book? Would it be an o with a slash -

Yes


With inverted chords - does that get indicated too, or is it a matter of spelling it out somehow with an added note and it's up to the reader to deduce that?


Often the latter, but sometimes composers will specify a particular inversion by notating it as a slash chord.

Originally posted by JOHNNY L. GOODE
So do I have it correct if I say a C half-diminished chord would be spelled C,Eb, F, Bb, and a C dim chord would be spelled C,Eb,F,A?

If you're being anal about it, you'd spell a half-diminished chord in C as: C, Eb, Gb, Bb. Remember that half-diminished is synonymous with "mi7b5", as these chords used to be called back in the old "illegal Real Book" days (many still use this designation).

A fully diminished 7 chord built on C would contain the same diminished triad as the half-diminished, but the 7th would be lowered an additional half step from a minor 7th to a diminished 7th: C, Eb, Gb, Bbb (A).

How does one indicate a half-dim chord in a fake book? Would it be an o with a slash, C 1/2dim or something?

Typically it's the "O with the slash" thing, but can also be called "mi7b5" without harming anything...just takes a little longer to write.

With inverted chords - does that get indicated too, or is it a matter of spelling it out somehow with an added note and it's up to the reader to deduce that?


Sometimes either or both, depending on who wrote the chart. If an inversion is really intended, it's usually drawn as a "slash chord" i.e. - Cma7/G or whatever. Sometimes, the chord is simply named as if it were built up from the desired root note.

Hope this helps.

Chris - are you ignoring my posts now? :confused:

Thanks for the extremely helpful clarifications. Sorry, I did mean to say C, Eb, Gb and not fall short.

Originally posted by ROGER THE BRUCE
Chris - are you ignoring my posts now? :confused:


Now there's a trick question if I ever heard one...isn't that kind of like asking, "Are you asleep?". :D

The answer is no - I started by answering the spelling question and just got carried away. DOH!

OK - thanks! :)

Originally posted by Johnny L
Simple music theory questions with which to impose (thanks in advance for your kindness):

Do 9th and 11th chords assume b7 as part of the chord?

If you mean C9, C11 etc, then yes. If it has a 'maj' in it, e.g. Cmaj9, then a major 7th, not a b7 is assumed.

Sus4 chords - does only the second note get raised a half step, or do both the second and third note get raised a half step?

Firstly, I don't think it's such a good idea to call it "second note" and "third note", because there are many voicings for a sus chord (or any chord), and the 3rd and 5th will often not be the 2nd and 3rd notes, respectively. Better to call them the 3rd and the 5th, IMO.

In a sus chord, the 4th usually replaces the 3rd. So C is C E G, and Csus is C F G. The 5th (G) remains unaltered. Note that the 4th doesn't have to replace the 3rd, you can have both notes in there, but in practice the 4th usually replaces the 3rd. Mark Levine defines a sus chord as a dominant 7th chord in which the 4th is not an avoid note.

If the latter is false does one say, for example, Asus #5 to cover it or would this construction be covered by changing the root and doing the A/whatever?

I've never seen sus#5 written, so maybe it's not a good idea. But, as Pac pointed out, this basically turns it into a different chord - in that case, D minor (in second inversion). The #5 is an E#, aka F, so you get A D F, which spells out D minor.

Dim chords - do min b5 chords always get called dim chords instead?

No, a dim chord isn't really the same as a min 5b chord. A diminished triad is the same as a minor triad with a b5, but when you add a 7th they differ because a dim chord will have a bb7 (or 6th) and the min5b chord will have a b7.

dim = 1 b3 b5 bb7
min7b5 a.k.a half-dim = 1 b3 b5 b7

Hi Moley - nice to see you back and straight into the fray on the harmonic battlefield!! ;)

I haven't seen you around for over a week!

I realized when I went back to the piano yesterday that the chord progressions for the songs I ended up singling out for memorization in the Hal Leonard book(A Train and Funny Valentine) don't have any dim or half-dim chords listed. I'm going to have to find some progressions that have augmented and diminished chords in them. #9 chords are awesome.

Now that I know how a diminished, half-diminished, and suspended chord is spelled, and that sus #5 chords pretty much get written as something else, I would like to impose further and ask about augmented chords.

I know augmented chords stack maj 3rds instead of min 3rds, but can it be stacked like a full dim chord and get spelled B, Eb, G, Bb without any additional info, or would this be something like Baug maj7 instead?

Bossa Novas use half-diminished chords a lot...or maybe it's just Jobim who does?

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield
Hi Moley - nice to see you back and straight into the fray on the harmonic battlefield!! ;)

I haven't seen you around for over a week!

Hi there Bruce! I haven't been around much, I've been sorta busy lately, Uni's just started back up and I've been doing quite a few shifts at work too.

Originally posted by Johnny L
I know augmented chords stack maj 3rds instead of min 3rds, but can it be stacked like a full dim chord and get spelled B, Eb, G, Bb without any additional info, or would this be something like Baug maj7 instead?

Firstly, G to Bb is a minor 3rd not a major 3rd. If you're gonna stack major 3rds, you only get 3 before you repeat yourself, whereas you get 4 with dim chords. So a full diminished chord is 4 notes, whereas a full augmented chord is just 3.

The B Eb G Bb example, I would call Bmaj7(#5) and it'd be spelled B D# Fx A# (x = double sharp).

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield
Bossa Novas use half-diminished chords a lot...or maybe it's just Jobim who does?

Any tunes in a minor tonality should use a lot of half-diminished chords - it's the ii chord in minor.

Originally posted by Johnny L
I realized when I went back to the piano yesterday that the chord progressions for the songs I ended up singling out for memorization in the Hal Leonard book(A Train and Funny Valentine) don't have any dim or half-dim chords listed

Of course - but I was just suggesting an obvious/easy place to look for some....;)

Thanks and I did mean to say G to Bb. I was just curious to see how it would be spelled and better understand more differences between augmented and diminished chords. I'll see if I can ask for these answers a different way to test my understanding of the augmented and diminished world now:

Bmaj7 #5 - B, Eb, G, Bb
Bmin7 - B, D, Gb, A
B - B, Eb, Gb, B
B dim - B, D, F, Ab
B 1/2dim 7 - B, D, F, A
B aug 7 - B, Eb, G, A
B 13 - B, Eb, Gb, A, Db, F, A
Bmaj13 - B, Eb, Gb, Bb, Db, F, A
Augmented chords are built with the root, maj3rd, maj3rd only. Diminished chords are built with root, min3rd, min3rd, min3rd.

Where am I mistaken?

Thanks for grading, and I apologize in advance for using the key of B rather than something like C...it was designed to help me learn something more.

Johnny

Some folks might insist on sharps for B natural.

for 13th chords sometimes it helps to check the extention note by relating it to it's place in the first octave. for example the 9th should be the 2nd an octave higher, the 11th a 4th and 13th a 6th. even more confusing? possibly. but ask if A is the 6th or not.

at this point I just might insist on sharps. yeah, why not.

And don't forget that augmented chords come from the whole tone scale (usually), so they're normally dominant chords. I typically write them: C7+5.

Originally posted by Johnny L
Thanks and I did mean to say G to Bb. I was just curious to see how it would be spelled and better understand more differences between augmented and diminished chords. I'll see if I can ask for these answers a different way to test my understanding of the augmented and diminished world now:

Bmaj7 #5 - B, Eb, G, Bb

B maj7#5 = B D# F## A#

Bmin7 - B, D, Gb, A

Bmin7 = B D F# A

B - B, Eb, Gb, B

B = B D# F#

B dim - B, D, F, Ab

correct

B 1/2dim 7 - B, D, F, A
Bm7b5 (half dim) = B D F Ab

B aug 7 - B, Eb, G, A

Baug7 = B D# F## A

B 13 - B, Eb, Gb, A, Db, F, A

B 13 = B D# F# A C# E G#


Bmaj13 - B, Eb, Gb, Bb, Db, F, A

Bmaj13 = B D# F# A# C# E G#

Augmented chords are built with the root, maj3rd, maj3rd only. Diminished chords are built with root, min3rd, min3rd, min3rd.

Where am I mistaken?

Thanks for grading, and I apologize in advance for using the key of B rather than something like C...it was designed to help me learn something more.

Johnny

Mostly, you've got the idea, but remember when spelling chords to use 3rds. When you're using any type of "E" note in the key of B, you're talking about a 4th (Eb in B is a diminished 4th, D# is a major 3rd). Enharmonics don't work when spelling chords.

Thanks all for the grading and guidance. I'm editing this because I'm not sure what I said before makes any kind of sense....so here goes again:

The whole 7 and maj7 think kinda messes with me. When I see B7, I want to see maj7 because I understand it to be a major triad with the seventh note of the major scale added...but no, this is Bmaj7. O.K.

So when I see B9, I'm O.K. with the 9th being C# (even rather than Db, since the key of B would be written on the staff with sharps instead of flats). When I see #9 or b9 and listen to the chord against the melody line my ears tell me that 9 is a whole step above the octave anyway. Good enough.

Since I haven't been doing any 11 or 13 chords yet in the Hal Leanoard I haven't been listening or comparing...the F and A was only a guess that 11 and 13 where whole steps up from the octave like 9 seems to be.

Must 9, 11 and 13 correspond to the scale from which the chord is built (whether major, minor, or whatever)? If so, why does 7 not get this treatment?

Thanks again to all very much for helping me with this stuff...it's like I've finally found a key to open the door with.

Originally posted by Pacman


B 1/2dim 7 - B, D, F, A
Bm7b5 (half dim) = B D F Ab

No man, he had it right the first time. Bm7b5 is the 7th mode of C, which doesn't have an Ab. You spelled a dim chord.

Dammit! I knew that - stupid mistake....

Wow this is one hell of a refresher course. I had a lot of this stuff burried by the nature of the styles of music I find myself playing nowdays..... Thanks guys.

Now I've got a foundation to work with:
http://www.creativekeyboard.com/nov01/chordtheory.pdf

It's all in C, but I can hear what they're supposed to sound like now and simply transpose.

It talks about the 13th as really being the 6th of the chord, as was offered to me earlier. Guess that makes 11 the 4th and the 9th a 2nd, if I ride with the "stacking of 3rds" reference.

Cool...get this stuff down and then move forward with that chord progression roman numeral stuff...

Originally posted by Johnny L
Must 9, 11 and 13 correspond to the scale from which the chord is built (whether major, minor, or whatever)?

They do generally, yes. It's a matter of knowing which scale accompanies each chord. Here's an example, using C:

C, Cmaj7, Cmaj9, C6, C6/9 ... : C Major
C7, C9, C11, C13 : C Mixolydian
C7b9, C7#9 : C Half-Step/Whole-Step Diminished
C7alt, C7b13, C7#5#9 ... : C Altered
Cm7, Cm9, Cm11 ... : C Dorian
Cm7b5 : C Half-Diminished/C Locrian

This is by no means definitive though, different players have their own ideas of which scales go with which chords.

If so, why does 7 not get this treatment?

It does. Dominant 7th chords are built off the mixolydian scale, not major.

I guess that's another gap that needs to be closed...thanks for more guidance.

I can't imagine how painful it must be to study this stuff without getting to hear it at the same time.

Found a Mingus song in the Hal book called Pork Pie Hat, in Ab or some key that has 4 flats in it...had to play it a couple of times to get the melody and chord spellings right. Pretty wild, and it ends on an 11 chord too. Kinda fun trying to bring it from out of the paper world without having heard a recording first. That's not my usual approach to learning a song...

I love Pork Pie Hat. You should go out and get Mingus Ah Um, and check Mingus's chords against your chart. I know the Real Book(illegal) is in the wrong key, along with the usual other mistakes, so you may be surprised at how different it sounds than Hal's version.

It's also in the official Mingus fake book.

Josh, What key is it in the officail fake book?

You probably already know it's F minor in the Hal book after I said 4 flats. Took me a little longer...

What key does Mingus do the song in Ah Um?

Sorry this took a while--I haven't been paying attention. It's in Eb.