Last night my girlfriend and I celebrated the (Chinese) New Year at the SF symphony. No, Metallica wasn't there!

Amy Tan read from her children's story "The Chinese Siamese Cat." The music was composed by Nathan Wang, and featured Jiebing Chen on erhu, Zhiming Han on yangquin and dizi, and Cynthia Hsinmei Hsiang on zheng. We also heard Nathan Wang's "Overture to On Golden Mountain" and Chen Gang and He Zhanhao's "The Butterfly Lovers Concerto" again featuring Jiebing on erhu. There was another reading by Amy Tan from "The Joy Luck Club" with Rachel Portman's score. What a tremendous night! Hearing the butterfly harp as accompanied by the Chinese violin was amazing. What awesome virtuosoes. It's unbelievable the soul that Jiebing can play from a two-stringed instrument!

Getting to hear to string basses along with cellos, violas, and violins is absolutely amazing. I must learn URB, I must learn URB, I must learn URB, I must learn URB.

All in all, it was a wonderful night. It's always magnificent to go to the symphony; however, when you can celebrate eastern instrumentation and folklore in addition to your standard symphony, it's an awesome experience. The night began with a local kung fu school demonstrating their dragon dances.

It was a great night!

Welcome. I hope you follow through; step one: please don't call it a URB

I must learn String Bass. I must learn String Bass. I must learn String Bass. I must learn String Bass. I must learn String Bass. :D

Looks like your success is virtually guaranteed. :D

jazzbo, you are half way there. Don has an amazing knack for identifying the problem, and offerring the appropriate solution.

Originally posted by Don Higdon
Welcome. I hope you follow through; step one: please don't call it a URB

Don, please don't take this as a smart a** question. It's not meant to be.

Why? That's what I've always called it. Wrong terminology or what? If I own a 3/4 size bass, something doesn't ring right when I call it a DB. I assume that the "proper" name is double bass. Right?

On the other hand, I don't want to sound like an idiot to someone who's classically trained.
Tnx, Pkr2

I find it frustrating having to use the "international symbol" (C-shaped left hand over head, fingers-extended right hand in front of stomach) every time I try to explain my chosen instrument. I guess that the term URB maybe helpful in that regard, but the actual instrument we play is quite simply the BASS.

The other instrument requiring sound amplification is a bass guitar, not a BASS. Therefore, I think alot of veteran players find it somewhat insulting to have to describe their hand-crafted, pieces of art as anything other than bass or double bass.

URB falls into the category containing such descriptives as:

Bull fiddle, slap bass, cello?.....etc.

Poke Her, Too:
I guess this is the area where my petulance surfaces.
It's alot of things.
1. On their manuscripts, Mozart, Stravinsky, Penderecki, et al never wrote "upright" or "acoustical" or "standup".
2. We were here first, before there was another instrument that laid claim to the word "bass". Our heritage is 4 centuries old.
3. In the space of 40 years, solely via the arrogant force of numbers, the world of BG has forced the DB world to explain itself, to add modifying language to our description of our instrument, for reasons which include the dumbing down of the general public, the power of boneheaded media (was that a redundancy?) and the corporate world.
4. I'm a purist, not always reasonably so.

This reminds me of a story Michael Moore told me.
In the earliest days of cable TV, he and Jimmy Rowles, both badly hung over, appeared on a morning talk show. After their number, the overly cheerful host came over to interview Jimmy. After listing several major highlights of Jimmy's career (e.g. Billie Holiday's accompanist) the host asked "...with all that, what's left? Is there anything you haven't done that you wish you had?"
Jimmy replied, "I wish I had blown up the Fender factory."
The host didn't ask any more questions.

[Edited by Don Higdon on 01-27-2001 at 04:39 PM]

Well, I've always felt it's about the music first, the artist second, the instrument third, and somewhere way down the line, the label. But then again, what do I know? :)

Anyway, I do frequent the DB side of the world here at talkbass, and have read all posts here to help learn more about the BASS. I can recall in several threads, seeing posts by BASS players using the term upright bass, or URB. Actually, that's the only reason I chose to use that term.

String bass is legit too, though doublebass is most accurate. Paul Brun claims the original name for our axe was violone.

As one who plays both the string bass and bass guitar (although it's no secret which I prefer), I can get away with this: in the early '90's I lived in the Germantown section, near Mt. Airy, of Philly, a breeding ground for jazz musicians. The Arkestra was a few blocks away, the Eubanks brothers grew up there, Stanley Clarke, I met Arthur Harper up that way, there's other names I can't recall, one of Ellington's bassists, and plenty of cats no one's heard of but they all burn. That's where I learned the official designations: real bass, toy bass.

The washtub fiddle is also a commonly used name for the double bass.

contrabasso

Originally posted by contrabasso_classico
The washtub fiddle is also a commonly used name for the double bass.
contrabasso

But the difference is, no one cares if you spill your beer on a washtub fiddle! ;)
Seriously, though, in addition to Don-San and KrackHouskey's
very valid points, I should also point out that "Upright" and "Standup" are physical positions, While Double bass, String Bass, Bass Viol, Kontrabaß, refer to the actual instrument,and since you play an instrument, not a position, these terms are correct,yes?

[Edited by reedo35 on 01-28-2001 at 05:41 PM]

???? You guys explain theory much more clearly than semantics (sp?).:)

May I take the devils advocate position? It really isn't a very important issue to me but I still don't see the error in terminology.

1- A bass guitar is not played in an upright position, therefore the difference is quite obvious.

2- An electric bass can certainly be as much a work of art as a DB.

3- A beer spilled on an EBG or tub fiddle is just as traumatic to the owner of them as it it is to a double bassist.

4- String bass is no more legit for a DB as it is for URB. They both have strings. So does BG for that matter.

5- " On their manuscripts, Mozart, Stravinsky, Penderecki, et al never wrote "upright" or "acoustical" or "standup"."

This is very logical reasoning. On the other hand, none of these old masters ever used the tem "jazz" to describe music. Granted, this is a pretty weak retort since Jazz hadn't been invented in thier time.

6- Real bass vs. toy bass needlesly belittles the players of toy basses. It really didn't mention which was which in the post that I am addressing.

7- "Paul Brun claims the original name for our axe was violone."

If this be the case, why is DB not just as inaccurate as URB? Shouldn't they both be called the "vialone"? I wont even mention the fact that none of them used the term "axe".
I'm not insulted by theat terminology, although some may be.

8- We were here first, before there was another instrument that laid claim to the word "bass". Our heritage is 4 centuries old.

I really don't think that this is 100% on the money. I was under the impression that "bass" is technically a description of the clef upon which a musical score is written. technically speaking, a tuba is as well described as a bass as a DB. I stand to be corrected, but I thought that the absolutely proper name for DB is contrabass.


9- "URB falls into the category containing such descriptives as:
Bull fiddle, slap bass, cello?.....etc."

I'm curious as to what authority this statement is based upon.

To sum up: A rose is a rose is a rose... However I do yield to the opinion of those who definitely know more about bassy type things than myself. Hereafter my descriptive name will be double bass. When in Rome...:)

pickaroot

The I.S.B Mainline had a humorous editorial to the effect that we can't even agree on what the name of our instrument is. Bass, bass viol, string bass, double bass, contrabass, bass fiddle. On the other hand, "upright" was not on the list.

I don't get your point regarding jazz and the name of the instrument.

There is scholarly disagreement on the characteristics of a "violone."

EB as much art as DB? You're entitled to think so, and I'm entitled to reject the notion.

OK, there's no rule book. So? Do you think that in rehearsal, if the conductor says "...bar 95, cellos and basses," the tubas should play, "technically speaking"? For that matter, is the conductor required to say "double basses", "contrabasses", etc. when she means us? Similarly, if the conductor says "...brass and horns...", the trumpets, trombones, tubas play. So do the French horns. And the English horn does not. Everybody knows what "the horns" are. The whole point is that a vocabulary has been in effect for centuries which, absent the need for hair splitting, is crystal clear. Everyone knows what a bass is, and a tuba, and a contrabassoon, etc.

Good enough reasons all, Don. I really wasn't arguing that anyone was wrong. As I said, I was speaking as the d.a.

Again, it'll be double bass for me too hereafter.

I would love to have the opportunity to be around the players who play in orchestras and jazz groups and that sort of thing. I was never that lucky so my info will have to come from the guys like yourself on T.B. who are willing to share with me what you know.

By the way, after only a couple or three weeks of daily skull practice some of the mystery is beginning to disappear. I actually understand now what is meant by scales, degrees and modes. I know that these things are boringly basic to the guys that know it but it has created a brand new interest in music for me. It's amazing to me how a concept can seem so intimidating until that light comes on. I honestly feel now that I am going to be able to learn this stuff.

What truly amazes me is how much of this stuff that I've been doing for years by ear. Most of my practice at home has been playing along with recordings. One of the neatest solos that I do is absolutely nothing but major scales done to a walking bass line. I really thought that I was going to have to learn twelve different scales as opposed to learning one scale and moving it to different fingerboard positions.

If I start getting on anybodys last nerve, just let me know. I sure don't want to kill the goose that lays the golden egg, so to speak.

Now I have another dumb question. I am trying to learn to read standard notation and all the online lessons that I have found seem to be slanted toward the guitar or keyboard players. All of them start out teaching the treble clef. Since I am a bassist, should I concentrate on becoming proficeint on the bass clef and not worry too much about the treble clef, or am I trying to take a shortcut that will only slow me up when I get deeper into sight reading?

Please keep in mind that I ain't no spring chicken so I really don't have as much time left as the younger players.
At 63 I figure that I might have ten or fifteen years max of good playing time so I don't really want to spend a lot of time on that which doesn't apply to the double bass or bass guitar.

Maybe the theory forum that Chris has suggested will get off the ground. If so, I certainly hope that you, Ed , Dave and all of you will support it with your help. That would be a formidable base of knowledge to tap into. Besides, it would get rookies like me out of your hair and you guys can have some discussion without interruption. :)

Pkr2

I must say that before using this board. I always said "Double Bass" or just the Basses if I was referring to an orchestral section. Ironically enough, I now tend to say "upright" bass as this seems to have been the most commonly used and understood term around here. I can see the argument that this helps distinguish it from the bass guitar for those who play the electric instrument and have no experience of (maybe even the existence of)Double Bass and just refer to their own instrument as "Bass". Nobody I have met in the UK calls it "upright" and I assumed this must be an "Americanism" which I went along with to be one of the "Guys" - another expression that nobody really uses in the UK. ;)

As to pkr2's question on clefs - I don't know about orhestral - but all the "proper" Jazz books I have; like Rufus Reid's Evolving Bassist, stick exclusively to Bass Clef and recommend writing everything out in this.

pkr2
The only way to do it is to do it. If you want to learn to read bass clef, buy bass method books.
I don't know what these online courses are offering; I'm by nature suspicious of how good they are.

To answer the question, should you (pkr2) just ignore the treble clef and concentrate on bass? I think it goes without saying that your emphasis should be in the bass clef; however, learning the treble clef is very important as well. You would cut yourself off from all the music written in treble clef if you were not to learn it, and keep in mind that most melody tends to be written in that clef. I think it's important to master both, with your emphasis on the bass clef.

Advice well taken, Don.

Does anyone have a reccomendation for a good book for a person at my level. It seems that I see the Mel Bay books mentioned a lot. Good, bad , indifferent?

Tnx,all. Pkr2

Didn't mean to ignore your reply, Jazz. We were both typing at the same time.:) Thanks for the response. I'd rather have something and not need it than to need something and not have it so your advice seems to make good sense.

Pkr2

PK:

"Axe": slang term meaning instrument, not bass specific.

String Bass is legit. Though plenty of other instruments have strings, the String family is commonly accepted as violin, viola, violoncello, string bass doublebass etc. When the conductor calls for strings, the basses are included. They are the bass voice of the String Instrument Family. The term may also found on scores.

On "realbass" and "toybass": I learned the terms from long time masters who play both. As I perform on both, and am aware of their dissimilarity, the work that goes into playing the doublebass, and the relative ease of playing the bass guitar, I feel I have a right to carry on the tradition. No one should feel belittled, no one ever said the toybass isn't a valid instrument.

If calling the doublebass "upright bass" because of its playing position in relation to the playing position of bass guitar is valid, then I suppose those who play bass guitar are so egocentric that they should name all instruments in regard to playing position as it relates to bass guitar. And by that same token those who play the realbass may be of equal egocentricity in calling the bass guitar "toybass".

[Edited by David Kaczorowski on 01-29-2001 at 12:58 PM]

"egocentric"....? Duh, anybody got tabs for that?

Originally posted by Ed Fuqua
CRACKHOUSEKEY - does it stand to reason that the person who doesn't feel slighted when you refer to their instrument as a "toybass" would also not understand why you should feel slighted if they ever referred to you as "childish"?

Dat be me, Ed, you calls 'em likes you sees 'em and you sees good. But between you and me, I just think it's funny. Folks take me too seriously sometimes.

The first time I heard "Fender bass" was when an old guy was talking to me about a gig and he asked if I played fender bass. At the time, I thought he said slender bass, as in skinny bass.

No reaction to my Jimmy Rowles story on the first page?

O.K., I 'fess up. I was splitting hairs. The two proper descriptions will forever be "double bass" and "left hand by left ear while scratching belly." :)

Now back to the meat and 'taters.

Ed, I assumed that just learning the scales and modes was only one part of a bigger picture. I now know the scales but I want to apply my new knowledge. As I said earlier, I've known the scales for years but didn't realize it. I have been playing triplets and arpeggios for a long time also but didn't even know that they had a name. I can play a walking bass line just fine but the people that I've been playing with all of my life don't know a walking line from a walking catfish.

If I can hear it(I don't mean audibly), I mean if I can hear the chord progression I can usually play it. I have come up with my own mental terminology for most of the movements over the neck, such as a box pattern, a chime, straight time, waltz time , phrase emphasis and various other homebrew terminology. Mostly terms that only make sense to me. I am a reasonably good mechanic but I'm illiterate.

Good suggestion about focus but if I can't understand what I'm looking at it becomes blurry.

What I want to accomplish is the ability to take the sound from the page and be able to hear the song. Again, not audibly, of course, but at the very least useably, and then be able to play the song. I want to be able to take the song from my head and put it to paper and look at it later and be able to play the song.

No, I have no desire to play at the classical level but if a classical musician is speaking, I want to be able to understand what he is talking about within reason.

I would love to be able to teach when I can no longer play adequately but I'm aware that I'll probably never be that proficent but I can dream, can't I? :)

Can I reach that level without being able to read? That is not a rhetorical question.

The one thing that I am not looking for is a quick fix. Shortcuts in the past are what brought me to this pickle to start with.

Well now that I've probably gotten everyone as confused as I am myself, I look forward to everyones comments.

Thanks, guys, you all are very much appreciated.

Don, The "horizontal geetar" picker in my band knows a lot of tab. I'll ask him if he has "Egocentricity". LMAO

Punkernot

This thread has "mutated" in interesting ways, but never actually addressed the original topic, which is something that I have thought about many times.

I have been to many "symphonic" or orchestral concerts at the Proms in the Albert Hall and other London venues with the great London Symphony Orchestras and been inspired by the music of Mahler, Bruckner, Messiaen amongst others. But no matter how intense these musical experiences have been, I have never thought that I would like to be an orchestral bassist. I have the utmost respect and admiration for these people, but to me, orchestral pieces are about the whole and a large number of people subsuming their individuality to create a work of art defined by the composer and conductor.

My own interest in music is in creating something and to me that means being somehow more involved in the process of creation - adding something that is my own - even if it isn't up to the standard of what has been written previously. And I fully accept that I could never write a bass line as fulfilling as Beethoven or whoever!!

But if I'm not doing "my own thing" I tend to lose interest and I just don't think I would ever have the discipline to play exactly the bassline as written every time - I also find that no matter how much I like an orchestral piece, I don't always find the bass lines that interesting, but rather that they are the foundation of the orchestra and don't make much sense as a "tune" in their own right without the rest of the strings.

I just imagine that the sort of people who make good orchestral bassists are not like me at all and that while I envy the fact that they are at the centre of some of the most amazing music, I could never actually be like that no matter how long I studied or trained.

Bruce, I used to feel similarly. However, a few years ago I began studying orchestral music and Bach Cello Suite #3 out of a sense of how it might help my development. At around the same time I also began playing in an orchestra. I admit, it can be boring at times. Or, when preparing to perform The Planets, all the time. But I also discovered that there is something very satisfying in playing notes on a page as a composer conceived them and tradition has brought down. It's almost Zen-like, if you can pardon my corniness; eight basses playing some difficult **** in unison. And not only making the notes, but putting something of yourself into the music. In a sense, you sacrifice your Self to the music. I love playing the Bach,
and after having spent countless hours preparing a movement, it's part of me. I can play three movements by memory and they're mine. My point is that a relationship with the music develops and reaches a point where the difference between whether Bach or Beethoven wrote it, or it's a jazz tune I improvise on is small.

The additional benefit of studying classical literature is that you'll gain a greater understanding and appreciation of the Tradition of the Bass, and increase your chops tenfold.

Bruce - I'll prbably deal with this in bites.
I maintain there are more similarities than dissimilarities between what you do and playing classical.
I don't accept that a classical player is not creating just because the notes are written on a page. It's akin to saying an actor is not creating because the words have already been written. Were the premise true, there'd be no need for more than one recording of any piece of music.

I don't see the difference between playing orchestra bass lines that "don't make much sense as a 'tune' in their own right and playing in any section of a band like Basie, Ellington, et al. That's part of ensemble playing.

Ensemble is ensemble, whether it's a duo, trio, or 70+. You collaborate, especially as the bassist, for the sound of the group. The worst gigs are the 'star' and three guys.

At a recording session, the leader told the group on no uncertain terms to "stay within the scales" that he passed around. The album was Kind Of Blue.

Now, I'm off to orchestra rehearsal.:)

[Edited by Don Higdon on 01-30-2001 at 03:48 PM]

Don, You continue to be The Man.
I jump in kind of late, been kind of busy lately. Years ago I kind of thought that I´d contribute more to the music when I kind of did lots of "my own stuff". The more I played, learned, listened and loved jazz, I began to kind of understand that it was an easy way to end up mixing the harmony or time and f*****g up my fellow players´ solos.
These days I kind of enjoy when someone writes something special for me to play and also enjoy being a part of an ensemble. I agree with Don 100 % that it has no significance if it´s a trio or 70+.

Thanks Arto. Isn't it midight where you are? Don't you have to work tomorrow?

DAVID K: Please clam up about having to play The Planets. What do you think we're playing tonight?
Technical question: I'm trying to decide what to use for the col legno in Mars. My toilet plunger handle seems a bit heavy, since the passage is marked piano, so I'm considering a strip of moulding I ripped down when we redid the kitchen. Does it make any difference if it's painted?

Originally posted by Don Higdon
DAVID K: Please clam up about having to play The Planets. What do you think we're playing tonight?
Technical question: I'm trying to decide what to use for the col legno in Mars. My toilet plunger handle seems a bit heavy, since the passage is marked piano, so I'm considering a strip of moulding I ripped down when we redid the kitchen. Does it make any difference if it's painted?

That's too bad, last night I was rehearsing the Egmont Overture and Tod und Verklarung.

I'll confess that last season when we did The Planets I kinda faked the col legno. I figured with seven other basses I wouldn't be missed. For those few measures I didn't feel like going through the trouble of finding a wood alternative to my bow. Despite it being too heavy, a toilet plunger would certainly make your feelings about the piece known. Could you convince the entire section to use toilets plungers?

I was practicing the Allemande from Bach cello suite #3 this morning. I've only been working on it for a few days now. At one point I thought of this thread and an analogy for playing music written by others. It's a lot like getting to know a woman. In the beginning you gotta take it slow, you slowly get to know her, learning her likes and dislikes, what makes her laugh, where she likes to be tickled, her moods, etc., then eventually you're gettin' it on. But just because you know what she likes and what to expect back doesn't make gettin' it on any less fun.

Bruce, my original post was really intended to share my appreciation of the performance, the music, the musicians. My desire to learn STRING BASS was simply reinforced by seeing it, and hearing it in it's piece in that music. I wasn't necessarily saying that it inspired me to learn classical, although it did. For me, when I hear something like that, a full orchestra, and the STRING BASS'S role in that music, it is definitely inspiring, a wonderful thing to be a part of.

Now what do you call that instrument? Standup bass? :D

coupla times I used the term "bull fiddle" after my name in the gig poster. Nobody noticed anything....anyhow it´s funny to follow this name discussion, ´cause we mostly use one name in our language and that´s "kontrabasso". Stolen from Italian of course, but even people who don´t know anything about music can recognise it. Anyhow, we DO have terms
"pystybasso" and "läskibasso" , the former of which can be translated to upright bass and the latter is unprintable. I hate them as much as their equivalents in English.

R2D2

Originally posted by Don Higdon
Bruce - I'll prbably deal with this in bites.
I maintain there are more similarities than dissimilarities between what you do and playing classical.
I don't accept that a classical player is not creating just because the notes are written on a page. It's akin to saying an actor is not creating because the words have already been written. Were the premise true, there'd be no need for more than one recording of any piece of music.

I don't see the difference between playing orchestra bass lines that "don't make much sense as a 'tune' in their own right and playing in any section of a band like Basie, Ellington, et al. That's part of ensemble playing.

Ensemble is ensemble, whether it's a duo, trio, or 70+. You collaborate, especially as the bassist, for the sound of the group. The worst gigs are the 'star' and three guys.

At a recording session, the leader told the group on no uncertain terms to "stay within the scales" that he passed around. The album was Kind Of Blue.

Now, I'm off to orchestra rehearsal.:)

]

Well I was just putting my own "personal" perspective on this and I never meant to imply that this would apply to anyone else. I fully accept that I may well not have the right temperament to be a musician (full stop) and have never been a full-time player.

I suppose what I was saying is that symphonic concerts inspire me more to be a composer than a player. Also, whenever I see a great Jazz bass player I often think wow that's great, but he's put so much effort into that and more than 2/3 of the audience didn't even stop their conversation during the bass solo! I guess I'm just saying that I'm very lazy. ;)

I did get a record deal in the 80s and I spent most of my musical "prime", writing and recording "original" music (pop to you probably )that I had written, using sequencers, synths, drum machines etc. Maximum reward for minimum effort - that's how I like it! However, when I didn't earn enough to make a career out of it, I gradually came to the conclusion, that if I was just doing music for "fun" then I would rather be "getting out" and playing with other people - sort of like an extended social circle.

So my perspective, is that I only do what's "fun" to me and I tend to try to avoid the "hard work" parts! I am interested in learning however and am at the point in my life where I feel the need to fill in the gaps. So a few years ago I went to a "Science" summerschool at my local University, about Cosmology, Quantum Physics etc. out of interest. I discovered that they also did Jazz courses and signed up for these.

I am doing all this out of a sense of interest and as "realaxation" from my full-time job, so my point of view is very different from those of you who take this more seriously.

Having said that, when I retire I intend to start studying seriously and will attempt to write my own symphonies - well one would be nice! ;) I take my inspiration from the British Composer - Havergal Brian, who lived and wrote in my home town and composed more than 20 symphonies after he was 70 years old. I have a lot of these on CDs and it is some of my favourite orchestral music.

PS - I love the Planets! I have a full-size facsimile of Holst's original score! Although I love some of the recordings - like Charles Dutoit and the Montreal Symphony - I've never heard a "convincing" performance in the concert hall in the UK - I should have known!! ;)

If cats are calling the doublebass, "upright bass," because of it's verticallness, couldn't it just as easily be called ,"the downright bass." I think "downright bass" has nice ring and better suits the nature of the beast.

"Yeah, I play downright bass." Or the band leader calls out, "Gimme more o' dat downright bass." That works pretty well.