I couldn't find this, though I am sure it has been talked about. What key is a song in with the classic rock twist on a 1-4-5 chord progression in reverse. Say "Taking Care of Business, by B T O." chords are C-Bb-F in that order. It is like a 1-4-5 backwards, so is the key of the song in C or F?
Thanks in advance.:confused:

It can be in any key you want. Thats why the put it in the numeric system. This is the way it works

1. Tonic
2. Subtonic
3. Mediant
4. Subdominant
5. Dominant
6. Submediant
7. Leading Tone
8. Tonic

Each number corresponds to one of the notes in a major scale. Take C Major scale for example. It would be laid out like this

1. C
2. D
3. E
4. F
5. G
6. A
7. B
8. C

So what your 1-4-5 pattern means is the chord progession goes from the 1st degree of the scale(C in our case) to the 4th degree (F) to the 5th degree (G).

And is a really easy way to communicate how a song is going to run its course.

good luck!:bassist:

Originally posted by Plus
It can be in any key you want. Thats why the put it in the numeric system. This is the way it works

1. Tonic
2. Subtonic
3. Mediant
4. Subdominant
5. Dominant
6. Submediant
7. Leading Tone
8. Tonic

Each number corresponds to one of the notes in a major scale. Take C Major scale for example. It would be laid out like this

1. C
2. D
3. E
4. F
5. G
6. A
7. B
8. C

So what your 1-4-5 pattern means is the chord progession goes from the 1st degree of the scale(C in our case) to the 4th degree (F) to the 5th degree (G).

And is a really easy way to communicate how a song is going to run its course.

good luck!:bassist:


:confused: Where's the Bb?

Wouldn't this be a 1-m7-4? The root is C.

Thanks plus, but you really didn't answer my question. If you are telling me the song I used as an example,(Taking Care of Buisness) is in the key of C, then it would be a 1-7b-4. I think if you reread my inquiry you will get what I am driving at. It is an inverted 1-4-5, does that make it in the key of F. Or is it in the key of C which would make it 1-7b-4? And I believe the true key lies in the melodie of the song, but I was curious as to the common and general consensus on this standard rock progression of a 1-4-5 in reverse.:bassist:

It's a blues in F.
Since structure starts on a C, 5th degree is emphasized so any solo/melodic will probably sound better in myxolydian mode.

I have to admit that I don't understand a thing to what Plus posted. A root and a tonic are the same thing to me.
It looks like a complicated way to take care of modes.
Enlightements are welcome.

Originally posted by Jazz Ad
It's a blues in F.
Since structure starts on a C, 5th degree is emphasized so any solo/melodic will probably sound better in myxolydian mode.

I have to admit that I don't understand a thing to what Plus posted. A root and a tonic are the same thing to me.
It looks like a complicated way to take care of modes.
Enlightements are welcome.

Root refers to the lowest note of a chord. Example: if you plat a C root - fifth - octave power chord but add the G below C to it, you're no longer playing a C chord.

The "numeric system" that Plus described doesn't really complicate things. It's just a different way to look at it than you're probably used to.

Progression begins on the dominant, moves to the subdominant, then returns to tonic. The key is F, C is the dominant, Bb is the subdominant. In your notation, you would say that it begins on the 5th degree, then moves to 4th, then 1st. No more or less complicated, just musical semantics. ;)

Originally posted by ChenNuts44
Root refers to the lowest note of a chord. Example: if you plat a C root - fifth - octave power chord but add the G below C to it, you're no longer playing a C chord.



Sorry, but the root does not always refer to the lowest note of a chord.

Originally posted by ChenNuts44
Root refers to the lowest note of a chord. Example: if you plat a C root - fifth - octave power chord but add the G below C to it, you're no longer playing a C chord.

The root does not always refer the "lowest" note of a chord. You can spell a "C" chord however you wish and it will still be a "C". A Cmaj can be played C,E,G, or E,G,C or G,C,E or and combination of those notes and it will still be a Cmaj. It's just inverted. These are called inversions. Now you are talking about two note chords. Which some think are not chords at all but double stops. Anyway if you only have a C and a G being played it can be interpreted a couple of ways. One as a C chord. Or like you stated if the G is in the bass it could be heard as a Gsus of sorts. Depending on what was going on with the other instruments will determine the chord. I don't look at two notes played together as chords. That's just me. The root of a chord is just the tonal center of the chord. Gmaj7 chord even though it can be played F,B,G,D, G is still the root or tonic.

Originally posted by ChenNuts44

Progression begins on the dominant, moves to the subdominant, then returns to tonic. The key is F, C is the dominant, Bb is the subdominant. In your notation, you would say that it begins on the 5th degree, then moves to 4th, then 1st. No more or less complicated, just musical semantics. ;)

While this makes sense and sounds correct, the progression ends on the dominant(5th) and begins on the dominant(5th)and that seems contrary to me. So is the key C mixolydian or is it F major?

Come on Heraldo Chrisgerald, where the hell are ya?:rolleyes:

Originally posted by Jazz Ad
It's a blues in F.
Since structure starts on a C, 5th degree is emphasized so any solo/melodic will probably sound better in myxolydian mode.

It's not a blues in F. Blues indicates a specific form, and this tune doesn't nearly follow it.

As to the key, you can look at it either way - the key of C (1 b7 4) or the key of F (5 4 1). I look at in F from an analytical standpoint, but would call it C on the bandstand.

Pacman, are you saying that a blues has to stick with the typical 12 measure 1-4-5 progression ?

I know many famous blues that don't follow it.
Some tunes like Long Train Running don't even fit a 1-4-5 and they still are called blues.
What defines a blues for you ?

You can't analyse a tune based on just a few chords. It could be a blues (there's certainly more to that genre than a couple of twelve bar forms - for example eight and sixteen bar versions) but I'd expect a bit of a turn around somewhere (even if it was just V IV I I V IV I V) - I don't know the song so can't comment more on that.

However, if you know that the song is based on a V IV I progression, then its key is indicated by the I (F in this case). The question is how you've come to that knowledge :D

Wulf

Ok now,follow me here. Those that know the song it is by B T O , Taking care of buisness. It follows the familiar chord progression in rock, but it is inverted. I miss stated the form before cause it is actually goes back to the C, "C-Bb-F-C", and then it starts all over again. The movement is very familiar, many rock songs do this, but it is sort of an inverted 1-4-5. So what key is the song in?? That is the question I have raised. I am sure there is a simple answer. I think Packman is probably correct that the song is in F Major, and the progresion is simply inverted. But again a song that starts its progresion in C, and ends the progresion in C, but is in F seems contrary. The song could be in C Mixolydian. Someone must know for sure here:confused:

Originally posted by Jazz Ad
Pacman, are you saying that a blues has to stick with the typical 12 measure 1-4-5 progression ?

I know many famous blues that don't follow it.
Some tunes like Long Train Running don't even fit a 1-4-5 and they still are called blues.
What defines a blues for you ?


Well, I've never heard of a 4 bar blues before, and that song has the same 4 bars over and over again. "Blues" infers 8,12 or 16 bar form, with variations on the I IV V progression. Yes there are exceptions, but the presence of I IV and V doesn't automaticly mean it's a blues, either.

Originally posted by Turock
Sorry, but the root does not always refer to the lowest note of a chord.

Had the same argument with a room full of music profs etc. I lost.

If it repeats round and round C Bb F C then there's much more chance that the song is based on the C mxyolydian mode - I'd assumed it was C Bb F F.

One idea that might work is to first of all try playing over it using just the notes of an F major triad (F A C) and then C major (C E G). Which sounds more anchored to the character of the song?

Also, for what purpose do you want to know the key?

Wulf

Originally posted by wulf

Also, for what purpose do you want to know the key?



That's the question - why does it matter? Lots of rock-type songs are ambiguous as to what key they are in at any particular time, they have no functional harmony at that point - but so what?

Who cares what key it's in? The guitarist is going to shred on a blues scale and everyone will keep plodding along, so it doesn't matter!! ;)

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield
That's the question - why does it matter? Lots of rock-type songs are ambiguous as to what key they are in at any particular time, they have no functional harmony at that point - but so what?

Who cares what key it's in? The guitarist is going to shred on a blues scale and everyone will keep plodding along, so it doesn't matter!! ;)

Word up Bruce. It's just Rock n Roll man.

Originally posted by Plus

1. Tonic
2. Supertonic
3. Mediant
4. Subdominant
5. Dominant
6. Submediant
7. Leading Tone
8. Tonic


fixed it for you. :)

Subtonic = flat 7th

Originally posted by wulf

Also, for what purpose do you want to know the key?

Wulf
Inquiring minds want to know;)

Just because:p

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield
That's the question - why does it matter?

Who cares what key it's in?

Actually the question is: "What key is the song in". And I care because lots of rock songs use this sort of inverted 1-4-5 and I have always wondered what key they would be in.
I have gotten lot's of opinions so far but nothing definitive:hmm:

We've agreed that it's likely to be either F or C as the general tonal centre, with C looking a strong favourite (with a modal slant). That's about as definite as you're going to get from people (like me) who don't know the song - although, often it is hard to pin things down even when the song is very familar to you.

You just have to be scientific - come up with a hypothesis, test it and evaluate the results. You also have to accept that not every chord will fit neatly - if the composer of the song started off by figuring out what they could hear in their head rather than working from a theoretical basis, it might be very hard to pin it down to a clearly defined key.

Wulf

Originally posted by Pacman
As to the key, you can look at it either way - the key of C (1 b7 4) or the key of F (5 4 1). I look at in F from an analytical standpoint, but would call it C on the bandstand.

Thats pretty much the way i see it.

If i was given this as a question in a theory exam, and asked to decipher it using chord scale theory. 99.9% of the time i would say that its in the key of F.

Usually though ...a 5 4 1 progressions will go:

C///Bb////F///F///

But this progression is structured:

C///Bb////F///C///

....So to my ears, the "tonal centre"(not necessarily key) of C is implied much stronger than F......

If i was writing this out on a chart though, i'd more than likely write it in the key of F.

so my lame conclusion would be:

Key=f

Tonal centre=C

This is interesting. What exactly is wrong with wanting to know what key the song is in? Some of the people asking are the same ones criticizing folks for "not" knowing what's going on. Judging from the variety of answers apparently it's not that simple a question for some... even if it is only rock and roll;)

This song is one of Bachman Turner Overdrive's biggest hits. Take a listen to it, I think most here are forming an opinion without a clear idea of how the song actually goes. For some reason I don't see this as being as complicated as it seems be. I guess ignorance is bliss;)

It's going from what sounds like the root to me (C) to the b7 (Bb), to the 4 (F) and back to the root (C). To my ears the song deosn't hit the 5. The chords are all major chords. Play the bassline in old school boogie woogie style and it should be clear that the F is the 4. Stay on the F and it sounds unresolved to me. YMMV

I'd say it's definitely in C:D

Originally posted by bizzaro
Actually the question is: "What key is the song in". And I care because lots of rock songs use this sort of inverted 1-4-5 and I have always wondered what key they would be in.
I have gotten lot's of opinions so far but nothing deinitive:hmm:

Judging by the variety of answers it was a good question;)

It's in C; that's what it resolves to, and that is where it starts as well.

And that is why I have always wondered what key it and other rock songs like it are in. On the fret board it shapes itself like it is in the key of F, but the movement is like it is in C. And I guess the absolute answer would be in the melody. Thanks guys and I am back to thinking it is in C Mixolydian and not F Major.:bassist:

Originally posted by Brad Johnson
This is interesting. What exactly is wrong with wanting to know what key the song is in? Some of the people asking are the same ones criticizing folks for "not" knowing what's going on. Judging from the variety of answers apparently it's not that simple a question for some... even if it is only rock and roll;)
You're right Brad;)
But you must understand that this is a very interpretive question. Even though it's only rock n roll. My thinking of keys or tonal centers and structures is based on there is NO other key within western music besides C major. Everything else is just a derivative or modulation of C major.

Originally posted by Turock
It's in C; that's what it resolves to, and that is where it starts as well.

I'm hardly a theory boffin, but i'd say this is the answer tha t i would use. and then use slots answer to go into more depth.

just my 2 pence.

Originally posted by Lewk
I'm hardly a theory boffin, but i'd say this is the answer tha t i would use. and then use slots answer to go into more depth.

just my 2 pence.

While it does resolve to C it doesn't have to start there.

Originally posted by fivestringdan
You're right Brad;)
But you must understand that this is a very interpretive question. Even though it's only rock n roll. My thinking of keys or tonal centers and structures is based on there is NO other key within western music besides C major. Everything else is just a derivative or modulation of C major.

I should've put "only rock and roll" in quotations:D

Originally posted by fivestringdan
You're right Brad;)
But you must understand that this is a very interpretive question. Even though it's only rock n roll. My thinking of keys or tonal centers and structures is based on there is NO other key within western music besides C major. Everything else is just a derivative or modulation of C major. I think that's taking it a bit far - Western music is the one sphere in which you do find key centres as defined by Western music theory. However, even in Western music, there are many songs that don't fit neatly into simple analysis and there's no requirement to understand the theoretical basis of the music in order to compose decent songs - I've certainly met guitarists who have composed things which sound good but which they can only explain as 'this shape and then this one and this one...'.

Wulf

Originally posted by Brad Johnson
This is interesting. What exactly is wrong with wanting to know what key the song is in? Some of the people asking are the same ones criticizing folks for "not" knowing what's going on. Judging from the variety of answers apparently it's not that simple a question for some... even if it is only rock and roll;)


Well - firstly - who said there was anything wrong? I just said that many rock songs are ambiguous as far as key goes - they have no functional harmony, as such.

Of course - if somebody had said - well if I know which key, then I can play any note from that key in the bass line - then I would have said that is wrong! You must take each chord in the progression on its merits, regardless of what key you might think it is in.

But anyway - I didn't say there was anything wrong in asking - I was just saying really - "how does it help you in any way, to know what key it is in?"

I would like to know the answer to this question!! Then it may be easier to help the questioner.

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield
Well - firstly - who said there was anything wrong? I just said that many rock songs are ambiguous as far as key goes - they have no functional harmony, as such.


They obviously do have functional harmony, otherwise the songs wouldn't work, people wouldn't listen to them and they wouldn't be so popular.

Originally posted by Brad Johnson
While it does resolve to C it doesn't have to start there.
I didn't mean to imply that it has to start there; however, it is a pretty good clue, and that coupled along with the song's resolution is stronger evidence of the key. I think it would be safe to say that a very high percentage of songs do start (and end) that way, particularly in rock. That's been my experience, yours may be different, but I would seriously doubt it.
While I believe it is in C, I also believe a strong case can be, or has been, made for F, and I don't believe that there is an absolute answer to the question.

Originally posted by Brad Johnson

It's going from what sounds like the root to me (C) to the b7 (Bb), to the 4 (F) and back to the root (C). To my ears the song deosn't hit the 5. The chords are all major chords. Play the bassline in old school boogie woogie style and it should be clear that the F is the 4. Stay on the F and it sounds unresolved to me. YMMV

I'd say it's definitely in C:D

This seems obviously the right answer to me. It's just 1-b7-4 in C. C is clearly where the tonal center is. You could call it C mixolydian if you wanna. This just illustrates the point that there's a lot of music for which classic diatonic major-minor designations aren't completely appropriate.

I don't think a case can be made for F at all. The tune doesn't resolve to F, it resolves to C.

Originally posted by Richard Lindsey


I don't think a case can be made for F at all.
Well, one reason that a case can be made for F is because a Bb chord is not in the key of C.

Originally posted by Turock
Well, one reason that a case can be made for F is because a Bb chord is not in the key of C.

Doesn't really matter. You can't assume that every piece of music, even Western music, follows the rules of standard diatonic major-minor harmonic structure. Much of rock, pop, folk, and ethnic music just doesn't do that, at least not entirely. What determines the tonal center of a piece is simply where the piece wnats to resolve or rest. The song in question clearly, to me anyway, does not resolve to F but to C. It isn't relevant that those 3 chords would be a 5-4-1 in F, because that's not how they're working here.

Basically, if the chords by which the piece gets to the resting point I mentioned don't fit into the analytical method we're using, that's often because we're using the wrong analytical method.

The theory is just a way of explaining what already exists an works.

I've never even heard of the band, let alone the song... anyway

Strictly speaking it is in F - like, if you saw it notated in a guitar mag it'd be written in F.

But from a rock point of view - i.e. if I were teaching the song to fellow members of a rock band I'd say it is in C, because C is obviously the resting chord.

The definitive answer is F.

The long haired axe wielding rockers answer is C.

:D

Originally posted by Phil Smith
They obviously do have functional harmony, otherwise the songs wouldn't work, people wouldn't listen to them and they wouldn't be so popular.

I kept waiting for the wink to appear, and it didn't.

That's really not what functional harmony means, Phil.

Originally posted by Howard K
The definitive answer is F.



No, that's not the definitive answer. Fundamentally, the key (or, perhaps better, tonal center) of a song is not determined by what's written in the key sig. The key sig is chosen on the basis of the tonality of the song. In other words, the song comes first, and the sig is one of the devices you use to render it in written form.

BTW, for tunes that are not strictly diatonic, there is no rule that says the key sig used has to be the one that the chords would be in if they were all diatonic to a key. Many, perhaps most, people would recognize that the tonal center of TCOB is C and thus would notate it in C and use accidentals where necessary.

Originally posted by Richard Lindsey
Doesn't really matter. You can't assume that every piece of music, even Western music, follows the rules of standard diatonic major-minor harmonic structure. Much of rock, pop, folk, and ethnic music just doesn't do that, at least not entirely. What determines the tonal center of a piece is simply where the piece wnats to resolve or rest. The song in question clearly, to me anyway, does not resolve to F but to C. It isn't relevant that those 3 chords would be a 5-4-1 in F, because that's not how they're working here.

Basically, if the chords by which the piece gets to the resting point I mentioned don't fit into the analytical method we're using, that's often because we're using the wrong analytical method.
I agree with you that the tonal center is C, but is the tonal center always the key? There are rules, and any song written in the key of C, will use only certain chords unless it changes to another key, and Bb is not one of the chords in C.
C mixolydian is not a key; I'm sure you are aware that all keys are either major or minor.

Originally posted by Turock
I agree with you that the tonal center is C, but is the tonal center always the key? There are rules, and any song written in the key of C, will use only certain chords unless it changes to another key, and Bb is not one of the chords in C.
C mixolydian is not a key; I'm sure you are aware that all keys are either major or minor.

Tonal center is a more fundamental concept than key. There are thousands of pieces of music that simply do not fit into our major-minor keyset. Basically, our major-minor system only really closely fits a minority of the music out there.

A piece can most definitely be in C mixolydian or D dorian, or any of a number of different modes. The point to remember is this: the modality *is the fundamental harmonic structure* of such pieces. It is not tacked on in addition to a conventional key but is a substitute for one. A piece can't simultaneously be in D dorian and C major. It is one or the other. (I'm simplifying a bit because pieces can go through several tonalities/modalities, but you get my point). IOW, it makes no sense to say that, say, a song is in the mode of C mixo but the key of F. That just doesn't compute. It's tantamount to saying the piece has two tonal centers simultaneously, which it doesn't. So if it's in C mixo, it's not in F.

BTW, the "rules" by which chords are used in standard major-minor harmony are a bit more elastic than is often supposed. It isn't the case that you can use only diatonic chords. You will often find a V of V, or a V of iv, or a V of vi, all of which contain accidentals, and none of which *necessarily* marks a modulation to a new key. Check out some Bach, which can get pretty chromatic.

From dictionary.com:

Key, Music:
1. A tonal system consisting of seven tones in fixed relationship to a tonic, having a characteristic key signature and being the structural foundation of the bulk of Western music; tonality.
2. The principal tonality of a work: an etude in the key of E.


In which case, like pacman - in my head I'd thnk of it as F... playing it, feeling it, describing it to anyone else, etc, I'd say it was in C.

No one answer to rule them all...

Wow lots of complicated discussion for something that seems pretty simple. The question is what key is it in. Richard Lindsey is correct in saying that it doesnt matter. More information is needed for a definitive answer. It could be modulating over the modes of Cmaj or Fmaj or C/F minor pentatonic or natural minor. Knowledge of the melody and guide tones are required to say wether its one or the other. The reason why it doesnt matter is because its not up to you as the bass player to define the changes with a key because there may be a melody which dictates a certain key and if you choose differently then from what the other instruments are playing then you will ruin the song. There is also the possibility of a melody line that leaves room for more than one key to be used.

Sorry I rambled. Heres the definitive answer: you cannot tell.

Originally posted by Howard K
From dictionary.com:

Key, Music:
1. A tonal system consisting of seven tones in fixed relationship to a tonic, having a characteristic key signature and being the structural foundation of the bulk of Western music; tonality.
2. The principal tonality of a work: an etude in the key of E.


In which case, like pacman - in my head I'd thnk of it as F... playing it, feeling it, describing it to anyone else, etc, I'd say it was in C.

No one answer to rule them all...

The problem is, you're thinking that every piece has a key in the dictionary sense. Not all do. Thousands upon thousands of pieces of music, including much popular Western music, don't adhere to the rules of keys as assumed in this definition.

Originally posted by Richard Lindsey
Tonal center is a more fundamental concept than key.
A piece can most definitely be in C mixolydian or D dorian, or any of a number of different modes.
Yes, but the question is "What key is it?", not what is the mode. Since C mixolydian is not a key, the key cannot be C since Bb is not in that key. Which is why I said (and you disagreed with) that a case could be made for the key of F.

Yes, but the question is "What key is it?", not what is the mode. Since C mixolydian is not a key, the key cannot be C since Bb is not in that key. Which is why I said (and you disagreed with) that a case could be made for the key of F.

You are incorrectly assuming that when a key is specified that its always major. Right now Im learning "So What" Its in D dorian. That is a mode. You could say the song is in the key is C major but thats misleading because its played in D and then it modulates to Eb (dorian) and then back to D. You could even say its in A minor... but this is another misleading and pointless way of describing the music.

Originally posted by metron
Heres the definitive answer: you cannot tell.
Yes; that is the definitive answer.

Originally posted by Turock
Yes, but the question is "What key is it?", not what is the mode. Since C mixolydian is not a key, the key cannot be C since Bb is not in that key. Which is why I said (and you disagreed with) that a case could be made for the key of F.

The key cannot meaningfully be based on a note that is not the tonal center, as I mentioned in the rest of the post.

In the strictest sense, you could say that TCOB is in *no key at all* but in a mode. It is in C mixo, at least the main part of it is. There certainly is no meaningful sense in which it can be in the key of F if the tonal center is not F. That would be harmonic nonsense. A piece whose tonal center is C cannot be in F *anything*, pretty much by definition. You have to analyze it in terms of C *something*, whether that something is a mode or a conventional key.

What complicates matters is that "key" is used in more than one sense. Besides the strict, correct sense, it's often used as a shorthand for tonal center. Thus, something like "Dock of the Bay" might be casually said to be in (the key of) E, even though it really doesn't do a lot of the "correct" E major stuff.

In this second, looser sense, just about everything could be said to have a sort of key. In this sense, TCOB is in C.

Originally posted by metron
Right now Im learning "So What" Its in D dorian. That is a mode. You could say the song is in the key is C major but thats misleading because its played in D and then it modulates to Eb (dorian) and then back to D. You could even say its in A minor... but this is another misleading and pointless way of describing the music.

Exactly. Not only is saying So What is in C major misleading, it's flat-out wrong, because it does not describe what's going on harmonically.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the piano is playing 7th chords, which would make the progression more like. C7 Bb7 F7 C7.

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield
Well - firstly - who said there was anything wrong? I just said that many rock songs are ambiguous as far as key goes - they have no functional harmony, as such.

If there was nothing wrong with asking, why ask why they're asking?

"That's the question - why does it matter? Lots of rock-type songs are ambiguous as to what key they are in at any particular time, they have no functional harmony at that point - but so what?;)"

The original poster wanted to know... that's "what":D

I haven't found rock keys to be as ambiguous as you.

Who cares what key it's in? The guitarist is going to shred on a blues scale and everyone will keep plodding along, so it doesn't matter!!

Your elitist is showing again, Maestro.

Remember anything about your stereotyping rants?;)

Of course - if somebody had said - well if I know which key, then I can play any note from that key in the bass line - then I would have said that is wrong! You must take each chord in the progression on its merits, regardless of what key you might think it is in.

Anticipating?

But anyway - I didn't say there was anything wrong in asking - I was just saying really - "how does it help you in any way, to know what key it is in?"

Let's say you're on stage at a jam session and decide you want to play "Takin' Care of Business" and they ask "What key?". That's one very simple reason for understanding what key it's in. Call this one in F and a train wreck will ensue from the start.

I would like to know the answer to this q\uestion!! Then it may be easier to help the questioner.

He's already been helped. While you looked for clarification on the original basic question, if you had been more clear about your questions this might've moved along a bit quicker;)

Originally posted by metron
You are incorrectly assuming that when a key is specified that its always major. Right now Im learning "So What" Its in D dorian. That is a mode. You could say the song is in the key is C major but thats misleading because its played in D and then it modulates to Eb (dorian) and then back to D. You could even say its in A minor... but this is another misleading and pointless way of describing the music.
No, I am correctly assuming that all keys are either major or minor, and that dorian, mixolydian, etc. are not keys. Once again, the question is "What key is it?", and a mode does not the answer the question asked, however misleading and pointless that answer may be.

Open for business! Original poster's question was not answered.


Sorry Bizarro,

Carry on! :)

Originally posted by Richard Lindsey
Many, perhaps most, people would recognize that the tonal center of TCOB is C and thus would notate it in C and use accidentals where necessary.

That's exactly what I'd do. I don't know the song, but there are plenty of other songs based around the 1 4 and b7, with which I would do the same. For example that Blues Brothers song, "Everybody/needs somebody..." - transposed to C, the chords (IIRC) are

| C F | Bb F |

But I'd definitely say it's in C, and I'd notate with no key sig. Even though all three chords are diatonic to F but not C, C is definitely the tonal centre, to me.

IMO, the key signature is intended to indicate the key of the piece. Even if there's another key signature that better fits the chords/scales used (in this case F Major).

Originally posted by Brad Johnson
He's already been helped. While you looked for clarification on the original basic question, if you had been more clear about your questions this might've moved along a bit quicker

Is this a race? We have all the time we like - people can come back whenever they like and read it - best to get it right rather than hurry !!

Originally posted by Brad Johnson
If there was nothing wrong with asking, why ask why they're asking?


What's wrong with clarifying a question - it helps everybody a lot in their replies, if they know where the original poster is coming from!!

Originally posted by Brad Johnson
Your elitist is showing again, Maestro.

Remember anything about your stereotyping rants?

Well - as you are the only one objecting to what I said and contradicting me - maybe you ought to apply that to youself!!

Several people have agreed with me and Richard in particular is saying exactly what I did - so how about accusing him of being elitist and ranting... or is this just a personal vendetta against me, as usual!

:rolleyes:

Where's the :yawn: smiley.....!!

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield
Several people have agreed with me and Richard in particular is saying exactly what I did

I don't have a beef with either you or Brad on this, but to be accurate, I don't think you and I were saying *exactly* the same thing. IIRC, you were saying that it doesn't matter what key it's in. I was saying that it does kinda matter, in terms of locating the basic tonality/modality of the song. My point was that you can either argue (a) that TCOB is not really in a key, if by being in a key one means strictly adhering to the rules of conventional major-minor Western harmony as taught in our many fine educational institutions, but rather in some mode or other; or (b) if we interpret "key" a bit more loosely, as meaning basically tonal center, that TCOB is in C if it's in anything. There's no meaningful sense in which TCOB can be in F at all, if the tonal center is not F.

Originally posted by Turock
Once again, the question is "What key is it?", and a mode does not the answer the question asked

Actually, it does answer the question. If a piece is in a mode, say C mixolydian, it cannot, by definition, be "in" a key based on any note other than C. The name of a key or mode reflects the tonal center, and if the tonal center is C, it can't also be F (unless you're Charles Ives or somebody). So no answer to the key question other than "C" or "no key" is logically possible. Either TCOB is in no conventional key at all, by a certain strict application of the meaning of key, or else it is in C, by a looser interpretation of the term.

Originally posted by Richard Lindsey
I don't think you and I were saying *exactly* the same thing. IIRC, you were saying that it doesn't matter what key it's in.

Well I agree with what you have been saying - my take on this was a sort of frustrated. anguished cry of - not so much that it doesn't matter - but rather how does it help you to know?

Which is what Brad is objecting to!! :hmm:



I was saying that it does kinda matter, in terms of locating the basic tonality/modality of the song. My point was that you can either argue (a) that TCOB is not really in a key, if by being in a key one means strictly adhering to the rules of conventional major-minor Western harmony as taught in our many fine educational institutions, but rather in some mode or other; or (b) if we interpret "key" a bit more loosely, as meaning basically tonal center, that TCOB is in C if it's in anything. There's no meaningful sense in which TCOB can be in F at all, if the tonal center is not F.

I agree with you that it is not really in any key - that is, you can say it is in C - but how does it help you to know that - why not just be satisfied that some songs are ambiguous as to tonality?


....but this is getting kinda boring...;)

Well Bruce, you would need to know what the tonality is to determine what you're going to play on it whether you're a bassist, pianist, brass or reed player, just like you'd want to know if you were playing a blues.

This tune is sort of like a blues turnaround played over and over again.

Originally posted by Phil Smith
Well Bruce, you would need to know what the tonality is to determine what you're going to play on it whether you're a bassist, pianist, brass or reed player -

Why!!!?? :confused: You already know what chords are involved and what notes are in each chord, so how does the tonality help you any further? This is clearly not a tune that is using functional harmony, so knowing the key adds nothing - you just take each chord on its merits !!

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield
Why!!!?? :confused: You already know what chords are involved and what notes are in each chord, so how does the tonality help you any further? This is clearly not a tune that is using functional harmony, so knowing the key adds nothing - you just take each chord on its merits !!

It helps you in the same way that it helps you when you're blowing over any blues, or any tune for that matter. You're :confused: because you're thinking inside of a particular box. Come on out!

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield
Why!!!?? :confused: You already know what chords are involved and what notes are in each chord, so how does the tonality help you any further? This is clearly not a tune that is using functional harmony, so knowing the key adds nothing - you just take each chord on its merits !!

The reason would be that you don't just play the same thing over, say, a C7 every time you encounter one, regardless of whether it's functioning as a "blues" I7, a V7 in F, or a V7 of V in Bbm. The notes in the chord proper might be the same, but the passing notes you use, the resolutions you adopt, and the chordal extensions you select most likely won't be.

Originally posted by Richard Lindsey
The reason would be that you don't just play the same thing over, say, a C7 every time you encounter one, regardless of whether it's functioning as a "blues" I7, a V7 in F, or a V7 of V in Bbm. The notes in the chord proper might be the same, but the passing notes you use, the resolutions you adopt, and the chordal extensions you select most likely won't be.

But that's nothing to do with knowing what key we are in, in this particular sequence!! Arggghh!!

:bawl:

Originally posted by Phil Smith
It helps you in the same way that it helps you when you're blowing over any blues, or any tune for that matter

NO NO NO NO - this is just so wrong I dont know where to start!! :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield
But that's nothing to do with knowing what key we are in, in this particular sequence!! Arggghh!!

:bawl:

No, it's a lot to do with it. You would play it differently if you thought the F was the tonal center than if you thought the C was.

Originally posted by Richard Lindsey
No, it's a lot to do with it. You would play it differently if you thought the F was the tonal center than if you thought the C was.

Give me a concrete example - I disagree in this particular case, but am willing to listen... :hmm:

Open for business! Original poster's question was not answered.

Actually it has been answered. You cannot say what key it is in based on the information given.

Either TCOB is in no conventional key at all

I think this is likely the answer given more information. The original poster doesnt actually say what type of chords they are (c, Bb, and F...)

I am correctly assuming that all keys are either major or minor, and that dorian, mixolydian, etc. are not keys.

Main Entry: 1key
Pronunciation: 'kE
Function: noun
7 : a system of tones and harmonies generated from a hierarchical scale of seven tones based on a tonic

Im going to go out on a limb and say that any group of tones in any order can be called a key including and mode of any scale. Someone please tell me if Im wrong. Isnt the chromatic scale a key...? Lets not forget to differentiate between key and key signature.

EDIT: I didnt think to mention about the last quote, minor is the 6th mode of the major scale, commonly referred to as Aeolian.

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield
Is this a race? We have all the time we like - people can come back whenever they like and read it - best to get it right rather than hurry !!

Yes, take all the posts you need to finally get to the point:rolleyes:

What's wrong with clarifying a question - it helps everybody a lot in their replies, if they know where the original poster is coming from!!

There's nothing wrong with it, just do it up front instead of adding on later. That's what I'm saying.

Well - as you are the only one objecting to what I said and contradicting me - maybe you ought to apply that to youself!!

Sometimes you really can't see the forest for the trees. One very simple reaosn for wanting to know has been put forth all ready... it's very helpful on the bandstand.

Believe it or not it is very easy to play a song like this if you know the root. As long as someone telles me the key I don't have to "think" the chords, I can work the intervals, which will not change regardless of where you start. Again, if the original poster calls this song in F and plays C-Bb-F chances are there will be problems.

Granted this is a simple way to look at it but sometimes things can be simple.

Several people have agreed with me and Richard in particular is saying exactly what I did - so how about accusing him of being elitist and ranting... or is this just a personal vendetta against me, as usual!


:rolleyes:


You're obviously not reading the same posts by Richard that I did. Where did you read Richard asking "why" they wanted to know? When did Richard say something like this:

"Who cares what key it's in? The guitarist is going to shred on a blues scale and everyone will keep plodding along, so it doesn't matter!!"

That is eltist. You don't know what the guitar player will do when playing this... because YOU DON'T KNOW WHO THE GUITAR PLAYER IS OR ANYTHING ABOUT THEM.

Duh.

And somehow you still can't see the obvious stereotype you're spouting. I'm sure if I played this song with Steve Vai he'd shred on the blues scale. And I of course would have to plod along.

Thank you, Nostradamus:rolleyes:

This isn't personal... I just told you how what you've said sounds to me. Elitist. I'd say the same thing to anyone who came off the same way. If that's a personal vendetta you're correct... it's a vendetta against locked minds like yours.


Where's the :yawn: smiley.....!!

Where's that :whiney: smiley?

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield
Give me a concrete example - I disagree in this particular case, but am willing to listen... :hmm:

Why not just listen to the song and see how complicated this really is?

Then try to play it with F as the tonal center.

:D

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield Well I agree with what you have been saying - my take on this was a sort of frustrated. anguished cry of - not so much that it doesn't matter - but rather how does it help you to know?

Which is what Brad is objecting to!! :hmm:

No, it's not. Obviously you haven't a clue as to what I've said. Cool.


I agree with you that it is not really in any key - that is, you can say it is in C - but how does it help you to know that - why not just be satisfied that some songs are ambiguous as to tonality?


....but this is getting kinda boring...;)

That we agree on... at least this tangent;)

I look forward to the next gig where we don't have a chart and the keyboard player, when asked what key he wants to do a standard in, say:

Why? It's ambiguous. Just play.

Originally posted by Richard Lindsey
No, it's a lot to do with it. You would play it differently if you thought the F was the tonal center than if you thought the C was.

Maybe not. It would definitely be an interesting reading of the song.

:D

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield
Why!!!?? :confused: You already know what chords are involved and what notes are in each chord, so how does the tonality help you any further? This is clearly not a tune that is using functional harmony, so knowing the key adds nothing - you just take each chord on its merits !!

See my earlier post. You don't have to immediately know every chord of this song to play it.

So when you're all finished splicing hair and have agreed that the song is in F, degree V, maybe we can start playing it ?
Unless someone wants to look smart and write it in C with flats added everytime you meet a Bb ?

I fail seeing the point.

Originally posted by Jazz Ad
So when you're all finished splicing hair and have agreed that the song is in F, degree V, maybe we can start playing it ?
Unless someone wants to look smart and write it in C with flats added everytime you meet a Bb ?

I fail seeing the point.

No, we've agreed the opposite, that the song is not in F at all.:D And writing it in C with accidentals is actually a sensible--and, BTW, commonly used--method of indicating that the tonal center of the song is C.

Originally posted by Richard Lindsey
No, we've agreed the opposite, that the song is not in F at all.:D And writing it in C with accidentals is actually a sensible--and, BTW, commonly used--method of indicating that the tonal center of the song is C.
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield
Give me a concrete example - I disagree in this particular case, but am willing to listen... :hmm:

Honestly, I'd be happy to, if we were sitting over a couple of pints with a bass handy. It would be easy, and you'd hear it in a second. But I lack the patience to try to write it out for you in this setting. It's nothing personal, it's just that I always find such attempts mostly incomprehensible anyway. I'll just say this: think about how you establish the tonal center of a song, think about how you manage the dominant-tonic resolution, think about where you use passing tones and why (and which ones you choose). If you don't approach a 5-4-1-5 differently from a 1-b7-4-1, I'd be surprised.

There was a time when I was really excited by the prospect of learning more about music theory. Then I read this thread. :spit:

I'm no expert, but it seems beyond pointless to actually argue over what key a song is in when the only clues you have to work with are three notes! :rolleyes:

Carry on, and have fun. I'm going to go play bass... :bassist:

Originally posted by Richard Lindsey
No, we've agreed the opposite, that the song is not in F at all.:D And writing it in C with accidentals is actually a sensible--and, BTW, commonly used--method of indicating that the tonal center of the song is C. Commonly used, as in never ?
For example, I can't think of a Real Book tune written this way.
It's painful, unpractical and doesn't seem to make much sense.

Originally posted by Jazz Ad
Commonly used, as in never ?
For example, I can't think of a Real Book tune written this way.
It's painful, unpractical and doesn't seem to make much sense.

Don't have any of my books handy, but what key is "Killer Joe" in yours? There's a tune that goes back and forth between I and b7. Say C7 and Bb7. Are you gonna say that is/should be written out in F? I've never seen anybody do that.

Ive got all my real books on my work pc! :D Killer Joe (Real Book #2) has no key signature designated at the beginning of the song.

Originally posted by metron
Ive got all my real books on my work pc! :D Killer Joe (Real Book #2) has no key signature designated at the beginning of the song. Well thanks, but it's not helping much. :hmm:
There must be other examples then.

Originally posted by Jazz Ad
Well thanks, but it's not helping much. :hmm:
There must be other examples then.

I'm sure there are, but as I said, at the moment I'm not able to find them, since I'm without my books. If you're really interested, I'll see if I can find you some more. You could also do some looking yourself.

In any case, even one example is sufficient to establish that that "never" of yours was a bit too strong. You said you couldn't think of one Real Book song that did what I mention; well, now you can!;)

Originally posted by Jazz Ad
Commonly used, as in never ?
For example, I can't think of a Real Book tune written this way.
It's painful, unpractical and doesn't seem to make much sense.


That's the way I was taught to do it in theory class in college.

Well thanks, but it's not helping much. There must be other examples then.

This is an example though. There are possibly more songs in the book I was looking through that have no key sig where all accidentals are written out then ones with a key sig at the beginning. It happens ALL the time.

Originally posted by Jazz Ad
Commonly used, as in never ?
For example, I can't think of a Real Book tune written this way.
It's painful, unpractical and doesn't seem to make much sense.

Crack open a real book and see for yourself. :D Most of the tunes in the real book are written this way.

Tune in point, "Have You Met Miss Jones", the tune is in FMaj, one flat, but the tonal center of the tune changes and where it does you the melody notes incidentals. "Heaven", is another tune, it's in Bb, but there are G#'s, C#'s and F#'s in the melody.

The "Key" is the general rule, but there are always exceptions.

Lastly, the song isn't in F, what ever gave you that idea? Because it has an F chord?

Another example: Ana Maria. Obviously not in C major, but charted with no key signature. There are tons more. You can find a number of them without even getting past the Bs.

Originally posted by lushfreak
There was a time when I was really excited by the prospect of learning more about music theory. Then I read this thread. :spit:

I'm no expert, but it seems beyond pointless to actually argue over what key a song is in when the only clues you have to work with are three notes! :rolleyes:

Carry on, and have fun. I'm going to go play bass... :bassist:

You actually have much more to go on than that:D

This is a very well known song (apparently in some circles) and as such is available for a listen. I'd be willing to bet that the people arguing in favor of F haven't heard the song;)

Originally posted by Phil Smith
Crack open a real book and see for yourself. :D Most of the tunes in the real book are written this way.

Tune in point, "Have You Met Miss Jones", the tune is in FMaj, one flat, but the tonal center of the tune changes and where it does you the melody notes incidentals. "Heaven", is another tune, it's in Bb, but there are G#'s, C#'s and F#'s in the melody.

The "Key" is the general rule, but there are always exceptions.

Lastly, the song isn't in F, what ever gave you that idea? Because it has an F chord?

I am getting really bored with this debate - but I will just say that - we are not talking about a Jazz tune!!

If we were, then it would all make sense, but as we are not - it doesn't!! ;)

Originally posted by Brad Johnson
You actually have much more to go on than that:D

This is a very well known song (apparently in some circles) and as such is available for a listen. I'd be willing to bet that the people arguing in favor of F haven't heard the song;)

OK, OK, so there's a little more to go one than three notes. ;) (And, as much as I hate to admit it, this has been an educational and enlightening thread.)

I was just feeling surly and amazed at how many different ways you guys seemed to be saying what is functionally the same thing. For example, if I want to get some folks together in a room to play this tune, and half of them want to play the song in F and half of them want to play the song in C with a flatted seventh, won't everything work out OK as long as everybody knows what chords to play (over)?

I appreciate the talk of tonal centers and the like from a music philosophy point of view. However, in terms of the practical matter of what key it's in -- and "key" to me, seems to be just a general, flexible guideline as to what notes are fair game or not within the context of a given tune -- does it really matter whether it's in F or C with a flatted B? Ignoring the tonal center issue, it's the same thing, right? :confused:

I've heard the song before, but at the time I knew even less about theory than I do now. Its key signature was the last thing on my mind. (I think I was much more concerned with shotgunning a Pabst Blue Ribbon...)

:bassist:

Originally posted by lushfreak
half of them want to play the song in F and half of them want to play the song in C with a flatted seventh, won't everything work out OK as long as everybody knows what chords to play (over)?

does it really matter whether it's in F or C with a flatted B? Ignoring the tonal center issue, it's the same thing, right? :confused:



It's not quite the same thing. You tend to emphasize different notes depending on what you think the tonal center is. You play the song differently. That's why it's probably not a good idea to just ignore the tonal center issue. You might be using the same set of Lego blocks, but you put them together a little differently.

Now for the guy who's just chunking out the same chords over and over and not doing anything else, maybe it doesn't matter to him on a practical level. But to any soloist, and to a bassist, I'd think it would matter, because it would affect which of the Legos you select at a given moment and where you place them.

However, I tend to agree that we've ridden this particular horse about as hard as it needs to be ridden for now. I'm definitely repeating myself, which is probably helping no one, and several people have expressed boredom, so maybe we can zip this thing up?

Originally posted by lushfreak
I was just feeling surly and amazed at how many different ways you guys seemed to be saying what is functionally the same thing. For example, if I want to get some folks together in a room to play this tune, and half of them want to play the song in F and half of them want to play the song in C with a flatted seventh, won't everything work out OK as long as everybody knows what chords to play (over)?


The only people that would want to play it in F are those people that want to play it in a different key, in which case they would play;

F7 Eb7 Bb7 F7

Which will sound different than;

C7 Bb7 F7 C7

And they may want to do this because the singer may have a better time with the song in F as opposed to C.

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield
I am getting really bored with this debate - but I will just say that - we are not talking about a Jazz tune!!

If we were, then it would all make sense, but as we are not - it doesn't!! ;)

You're bored? Go away then, no ones asking you to post. :D

Jazz isn't the only music that can be subject to analysis and where rules of harmony can be applied. Keep in mind that Jazz at one time wasn't held in high esteem nor was it analyzed to the extent it is now because back then it was considered "Black People's" music.

Originally posted by Phil Smith


Which will sound different than;

C7 Bb7 F7 C7



But the "rule" is that the five chord is the only dominant 7th chord in a key - you have put up 3 different ones in a row - so functional harmony clearly doesn't apply here!! :hmm:

If it was CMaj7 D Min7 F7 CMaj7 for example, then fine - you could determine the key and everything you have been saying would make sense - but it's not!!! :bawl:

Geez, bruce - ever play Freddie the Freeloader? It's all V7 chords, does that make it nonfunctional harmony? No. Functional harmony also implies that chords can function as other chords (e.g. IVmaj7 chords can function as I chords, etc, etc...)

I'm amazed that you've all managed to argue for 5 pages about the key of a BTO song. That is truly funny.

First, I'd like to clarify definitively that the "root" is the "first"note in a chord. Not necessarily the lowest since we can build chords in many different inversions. This is a common misconception shared by not only the uninitiated but also by some of your Ph.D's that went to less than stellar grad schools.

Now,back to the BTO. These three "chords " C-B flat -F ; are they actually "chords " in that do they include the note that characterizes them as minor or major or are they merely perfect 5ths ?

IF they lack the chord defining character note -the third in a triad - then they are no more than p5's and that;s that.


As has been argued as nauseum, the key could be f or c but I maintain that if the chords are imcomplete and lack the important chord tones then you've really just got to pick on key and live with it.

John, I'd say Freddie is nonfunctional...just kidding...;) how about dysfunctional ?

DonZ, have you listened to the tune? Or are you just being theoretical?

about Freddie ? I was just joking around...not being serious. I do however know the tune(freddie) and play it all too often. BTO on the other hand...haven't played that in 20 yrs...

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield
But the "rule" is that the five chord is the only dominant 7th chord in a key - you have put up 3 different ones in a row - so functional harmony clearly doesn't apply here!! :hmm:
Rules are made to be broken. You said you were bored, but here you are still posting.


If it was CMaj7 D Min7 F7 CMaj7 for example, then fine - you could determine the key and everything you have been saying would make sense - but it's not!!! :bawl:

That makes sense? Have you tried listening to what you just wrote? Don't you want a G7 or maybe a Db7 in there instead?

Originally posted by DonZ
about Freddie ? I was just joking around...not being serious. I do however know the tune(freddie) and play it all too often. BTO on the other hand...haven't played that in 20 yrs...

I'm referring to "Take'n Care of Business".

Should I stick my nose into this one?

No.

Am I going to anyway?

Why not.

Here's how I would say it on the bandstand.

"Okay cats, we're gonna play BTO's Takin' Care of Business. It's in C minor. Start on the one, go to the seven (I wouldn't say "flat seven" because in C minor the seven is flat) then to the four, then back to the one, repeat forever until I signal the end."

Doesn't matter if I'm correct about what key it's written in. I've described it in a way everyone can understand.

Originally posted by Craig Garfinkel
Should I stick my nose into this one?

No.

Am I going to anyway?

Why not.

Here's how I would say it on the bandstand.

"Okay cats, we're gonna play BTO's Takin' Care of Business. It's in C minor. Start on the one, go to the seven (I wouldn't say "flat seven" because in C minor the seven is flat) then to the four, then back to the one, repeat forever until I signal the end."

Doesn't matter if I'm correct about what key it's written in. I've described it in a way everyone can understand.

If they were told this most likely the first chord they'd play would be a C minor. That would be a major problem;)

Originally posted by DonZ
I'm amazed that you've all managed to argue for 5 pages about the key of a BTO song. That is truly funny.


I find it incredible as well!! :eek:


As has been argued as nauseum, the key could be f or c but I maintain that if the chords are imcomplete and lack the important chord tones then you've really just got to pick on key and live with it.


Yup - that's my view!



John, I'd say Freddie is nonfunctional...just kidding...;) how about dysfunctional ?

Agreed again!!

Originally posted by Craig Garfinkel
Should I stick my nose into this one?

No.

Am I going to anyway?

Why not.

Here's how I would say it on the bandstand.

"Okay cats, we're gonna play BTO's Takin' Care of Business. It's in C minor. Start on the one, go to the seven (I wouldn't say "flat seven" because in C minor the seven is flat) then to the four, then back to the one, repeat forever until I signal the end."

Doesn't matter if I'm correct about what key it's written in. I've described it in a way everyone can understand.

I said - "it doesn't matter" - five pages ago :eek: and got a load of abuse for this!! :rolleyes:

But I agree with you entirely Craig!! In intention, if not in detail..;)

Originally posted by Phil Smith
Rules are made to be broken.

Fine - but don't then assert that you can determine the key centre !! :rolleyes:

That makes sense?

As an example that would make sense!
I'm not saying that's what the song is - I am giving an example of a different chord sequence, that you could analyse successfully and determine the key!!

Don't you want a G7 or maybe a Db7 in there instead?

NO! As that would make it ambiguous again!! :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Pacman
Functional harmony also implies that chords can function as other chords (e.g. IVmaj7 chords can function as I chords, etc, etc...)


Of course - but in this one, particular case - (not any other) - you have no context to be able to do that!

Tell me which of the chords in this particular sequence (not a blues or other tune) are functioning as others, then - you can't!!

Um...er...yup.

I should've said I would say on the bandstand "It's in C" and play all dominant chords.

I'm slinking off to give myself 1000 lashes with a wet noodle.

Jeez, don't you guys need to pratice? ;)

All those people who are having a hard time figuring out what key this song is in, JUST LISTEN TO THE SONG!!! It should be pretty obvious.

Theory is a great tool to have, but it doesn’t give you the excuse not to listen.
;)

Originally posted by Craig Garfinkel
Um...er...yup.

I should've said I would say on the bandstand "It's in C" and play all dominant chords.

I'm slinking off to give myself 1000 lashes with a wet noodle.

No biggie...just don't tell Bruce.

;)

Originally posted by Bassin'
All those people who are having a hard time figuring out what key this song is in, JUST LISTEN TO THE SONG!!! It should be pretty obvious.

Theory is a great tool to have, but it doesn’t give you the excuse not to listen.
;)

Bingo! But of course that's been said before.

Some are taking a very simple song, applying as much "knowledge" as possible and coming to conclusions that can't be drawn if you just listen to the damn song:D

I will admit I'm enjoying watching this take on the air of doing a triple somersault double-inverted power dive off the high board (triple digit degree of difficulty)...


while the song just does a cannonball off a rope into the creek:D

Theory is indeed a great tool... and your ears can be too.

If the progressions is 5-4-1, then wouldn't the 1 automatically be key of the song, since that is the definition of "1" when refering to keys?

Originally posted by Nick Gann
If the progressions is 5-4-1, then wouldn't the 1 automatically be key of the song, since that is the definition of "1" when refering to keys? Yes - but only if the progression really is 5-4-1. This one sounds like it's I7 - bVII7 - IV7, although I'm guessing the song's not overcomplex and anyone who had heard it would be able to play along whether or not they grasped the correct theoretical structure ;)

Wulf

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield
That's the question - why does it matter? Lots of rock-type songs are ambiguous as to what key they are in at any particular time, they have no functional harmony at that point - but so what?

The guitarist is going to shred on a blues scale and everyone will keep plodding along, so it doesn't matter!! ;)

Originally posted by the Bard of Johnson

No biggie...just don't tell Bruce.

The above was my first contribution - 5 pages and several days ago......:hmm:

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield
The above was my first contribution - 5 pages and several days ago......:hmm:

And?

Originally posted by Nick Gann
If the progressions is 5-4-1, then wouldn't the 1 automatically be key of the song, since that is the definition of "1" when refering to keys?

It's not 5-4-1... though a few people seem to want it to be;)

I'm confused.

Yay.

Originally posted by Nick Gann
I'm confused.

Yay.

Have you heard the song?

BTW it's not a 3 chord progression, it's four. It comes back to the C, then starts all over again.

http://bassforum.pointbeing.com/users/subsonicbass/deargod.jpg

Originally posted by Brad Johnson
Have you heard the song?

BTW it's not a 3 chord progression, it's four. It comes back to the C, then starts all over again.

I know the song, but its all the talk in this thread that confuses me. Its ok, I am going to take some theory courses in a while, so I will wait till then to really worry about this stuff ;)

I wasn't trying to incite a riot, but wrongly assumed that for a learned musician there would be a simple answer to this question. And modes are, in my opinion, an acceptable answer. I really didn't think a simple rock song could be so controversial in it's analisis. Some would demand the question to be quailified in the context of purpose. It is a "simple" inquiry:hmm:
It is a simple song. I know how to play it. I wondered what key it was in due to the chords used and the movement of the song.;)

The only way this thread would be more ironic is if it was about a ramones three cord romp.


The song is deffintetly in C IF any of you listened to the song for 30 secs then turned off the cd and sang home you would sing "C" thats how you tell what keys its in.Sometimes its slightly obscured. Sometmes you have to wait for it.Use the force,Trust you ear, turn your brain off and sing the most in sounding note you can come up with it will probally be the root of what key the tunes in.


Its I7/flatVII7/IV7/I7

Thats a tonic cord followed by 2 two cords with subdominant function,resolving back to the tonic.Repeat.

The Flat seven 7 cord (yes it should be called that there are minor scales with a natural 7th) comes from natural minor. The IV7 cord could be thought of coming from the melodic minor.The IV/I resolution is a OLD school cadence that comes from church its called the Plagel cadence (think Aaa--MEN).


AJ

that's "plagal" not "plagel."

TalkBass: where 5 pages and nearly 100 posts can be found arguing the tonality or lacktherof regarding a BTO song.

101...

If you call that tune out at a gig.....you would be yelling out ..."Takin' care of business" in C....1..2..3..4:D

Sitting here listening to the song, I can tell you for certain that if you listen to the piano in particular, the progression is C7 - Bb7 - F7 - C7.

Does conventional major/minor tonality or even modality apply to this entire song? Not that I can tell.

C-E-G-Bb, then Bb-D-F-Ab, then F-A-C-Eb, then C-E-G-Bb. Going from the second chord to the third, you've got to flatten the A from the second chord and the E from the first chord, so that's two extra accidentals even if you put it in C dorian. Most people would tend to think of it in C, not necessarily C major but C as the tonal centre. A lot of rock is like this, and it doesn't really need to be argued over.

In layman's terms, the damn thing is in C, regardless of theory nitpicking. Tell me to play it in F and you'll get something particularly stupid sounding when played with the rest of the band. This isn't Stravinsky, it's BTO and there's no need for polytonality. :P That's your answer.

Originally posted by GobyWan


Does conventional major/minor tonality or even modality apply to this entire song? Not that I can tell.


I've been saying exactly that for the last 5 or 6 pages and getting a lot of flack for it!! :hmm:

wait...i need more popcorn.

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield
I've been saying exactly that for the last 5 or 6 pages and getting a lot of flack for it!! :hmm:

Probably because you're not saying the rest of what he said:

"C-E-G-Bb, then Bb-D-F-Ab, then F-A-C-Eb, then C-E-G-Bb. Going from the second chord to the third, you've got to flatten the A from the second chord and the E from the first chord, so that's two extra accidentals even if you put it in C dorian. Most people would tend to think of it in C, not necessarily C major but C as the tonal centre. A lot of rock is like this, and it doesn't really need to be argued over.

In layman's terms, the damn thing is in C, regardless of theory nitpicking. Tell me to play it in F and you'll get something particularly stupid sounding when played with the rest of the band. This isn't Stravinsky, it's BTO and there's no need for polytonality. :P That's your answer."

He's saying it's in C, Bruce. Are you saying that now?

:hmm:

Originally posted by Brad Johnson


He's saying it's in C, Bruce. Are you saying that now?

:hmm:

No he's not - he said :

"Does conventional major/minor tonality or even modality apply to this entire song? Not that I can tell."

"Most people would tend to think of it in C"

"In layman's terms, the damn thing is in C, "


I agree that most people might think of it in C - but as he said - that doesn't make it right, strictly!

It is ambiguous - there is no functional harmony and each key only has one dominant 7th chord - so you can't tell by analysis!!

Read my above post.



AJ

Originally posted by DonZ
wait...i need more popcorn.

:D
:D
:D
Word...

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield
No he's not - he said :

"Does conventional major/minor tonality or even modality apply to this entire song? Not that I can tell."

"Most people would tend to think of it in C"




I agree that most people might think of it in C - but as he said - that doesn't make it right, strictly!

It is ambiguous - there is no functional harmony and each key only has one dominant 7th chord - so you can't tell by analysis!!

Well, you've certainly spun the f___ out of what didn't appear to be an ambiguous post. I guess you're seeing what you want to see. I guess "In layman's terms, the damn thing is in C, " isn't straighforward enough.

:rolleyes:

Originally posted by bizzaro
While this makes sense and sounds correct, the progression ends on the dominant(5th) and begins on the dominant(5th)and that seems contrary to me. So is the key C mixolydian or is it F major?

Come on Heraldo Chrisgerald, where the hell are ya?:rolleyes:


Many days late and several dollars short, I'm afraid. Wow, what an entertaining read!

Even though it's already been decided, my answer would be: Use your ears - it's in C. Duh.

If you take everything into account that happens, you get the dominant chords C E G Bb, Bb D F Ab, and F A C Eb. Then you get the blues "5-6-5" (Major 6ths, all) riff on each chord from the guitar. Then you get the singer singing both the Major 3 and the b3 over the C chord. Put it all together and waddaya get? C, D, Eb, E, F, G, Ab, A, Bb, C. Hell, it's almost Chromatic!

But if you actually listen to the song with your ears instead of your theory knowledge", the song is so obviously in C that it's not even funny. That's the real test, not what note-matrix fits the chords. Sure, the Guitar player is going to shred on the blues scale over the changes...but unless he really, REALLY sucks, he's going to shred on the C BLUES SCALE.

Flame away, folks! :D I could use some more good clean fun today.

This has indeed been entertaining

The correct answer is "F"

Mountain out of a molehill:p (just kidding)

M flat.

Originally posted by DonZ
M flat.

I hate keys with 9 sharps.

It's a 5-4-1 progression, 1 being the root and the key. The song you are discussing is normally played with the 1 being F but you can always change that. But in classic rock you play 1-4-5 or 5-4-1, that indicates the progression but the one always indicated the key. Don't confuse this short hand for rock with a numbers system out of Nashville, a completely different monster. At least thats how we communicate it in our band. Peace:D :D

Originally posted by muddywaters
It's a 5-4-1 progression, 1 being the root and the key. The song you are discussing is normally played with the 1 being F but you can always change that. But in classic rock you play 1-4-5 or 5-4-1, that indicates the progression but the one always indicated the key. Don't confuse this short hand for rock with a numbers system out of Nashville, a completely different monster. At least thats how we communicate it in our band. Peace:D :D

Okay, I'll play along.

This song has a FOUR chord progression. How could it be a 5-4-1... the first and last chords are the same?

It would have to at least be a 5-4-1-X

Would that be 5-4-1-5?

In describing the song, to me it has only three notes, and they can best be described as 5-4-1
in relation to the key of F, based on previous
posting. We actually play it 5-4-1 in the key of A. The 5-4-1 just describes the progression
of the notes in relation to the scale and given this little info any first year player on the bass could probably follow along after the first
run thru on the song. Just a short hand way to comunicate what to play and a good way to know which scale to stay in for runs, passing notes, etc. :bassist:

Muddy, did you bother to read the rest of this thread?

I just did read the almost all of the post and I have mis-spoke and that was due to my ignorance and reading the posts didn't help. I talked with my guitar player with 20 years on the road experience and who has taught me to play bass the last four years. I thought I knew more and didn't. He said the song is written in the key of C. If someone checks out the music thats what it will say. He explained to me in our short hand that it would be played 1-7-4. He also went on to explain how alot of rock songs are f**ked up and don't follow any rules and said therories are just that and won't apply all the time. I will sneak off into the corner now. :confused:

No need to sneak off, it's an honest mistake;)


And I don't see how this song doesn't follow any rules... though it does appear to mess with some heads:D.

BTO... who knew?;)

Read my previously written post.It follows rules simple difineable rules.



AJ

I'm amazed this thread is still active. It really doesn't say much for the collective abilities of this group...

Originally posted by DonZ
I'm amazed this thread is still active. It really doesn't say much for the collective abilities of this group...

:confused:

This group has no collective abilities that I know of.

http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/games/ogrebattle/cards/13.gif


No more insanity! Is there really a horse left to beat?