anyone here sit and play a German bow? my teacher plays french. i have been taking inspiration from Gary Karr ( and a bit from Alan Karr re. January give up smoking) but he stands and uses the hole arm which is impossible sitting. i use more of a wrist action. my teacher says it's fine but does anyone have any thoughts about if i am going to run into problems later on? any players you could name that i could try and find photos of who sit and play German bow? i would appreciate the tip.

HI,

I sit and play german bow (and French) and I'm still able to use my whole right arm. My stool is custom fit to my leg length so my feet can reach the floor. My teachers were students of Ludwig Streicher, and Lawrence Wolfe (french).

By sitting i can free up my upper body from instrument support and focus on playing the bass, not holding it. I dont know of any methods that teach how to sit other than my teacher's.

I play German. I used to play both pizz and arco sitting. Bowing the E string was always a problem requiring body and arm adjustments.
I've stood for years, now, and I intensely dislike playing seated. Standing, I feel at one with my instrument. I feel that bass playing (as does all human use) starts in the spine, and I achieve better use of the spine, neck (actually part of the spine), and head standing.

I play both sitting and standing. When I play sitting down, I try to get the instrument in almost the same position as when I'm standing, so my technique really doesn't change much. All sitting down does is take some weight and strain off of my body makeing those long rehersals a bit easier. I still stand when I'm doing solo work and practicing and stuff, simply because I don't want to become dependent on a stool; I hate packing them around.

anyone here sit and play a German bow? my teacher plays french. i have been taking inspiration from Gary Karr ( and a bit from Alan Karr re. January give up smoking) but he stands and uses the hole arm which is impossible sitting. i use more of a wrist action. my teacher says it's fine but does anyone have any thoughts about if i am going to run into problems later on? any players you could name that i could try and find photos of who sit and play German bow? i would appreciate the tip.


I have played both bows, and in both postions. I currently play predominately French while sitting for reasons of comfort, control, and ease of shifting from lower to above upper thumb postion. I do believe it is a matter of preference, neither one better than the other. That being said, I have found from my teachers, and with my students, holding the bass in a "open" position, (cello-like, more from the back as opposed to from the side), should enable you to play the E string without obstructions. Given that the stool is at the correct height, where your left leg is straight, but not locked. you should be able to use your arm instead of just the wrist. I believe playing with mostly wrist will affect the quality, intensity of your sound, not to mention wrist problems over time. Hope this helps!

I have been playing german for a good long while but have also went the french way for experience. in case im the only one in the orchestra thats holding german and doin pizz. i definitely do prefer standing over sitting as it allows me change position for leaning back and play lower fingerboard notes or leaning forward to play those solo stuff/passages. the other concern would be being able to play the A and E string properly while standing.

The reason why i went to sitting is because of long practise hours and i juz cant make it for anything else after standing for 4hrs. I would think that there is not too much disadvantage in terms of pitching as i move my hands relatively to the last position im in. so even if i have a very tall bass that's not mine, im still able play my notes in tune. Playing the E string will require bigger movement of pushing the bass outwards so that your right hands doesnt hit your right knee and stop there while sitting. This is probably the biggest obstruction for sitting. As for playing higher fingerboard passages, it would require more effort in trying to lean forward while sitting as im not of huge build. i would still prefer playing solos while standing.

When it comes to playing jazz and pop. doesnt matter at all. altho it does helps a little but having more arm power when im standing doin really loud and unamplified bass settings.
:bassist:

My bass teacher is a long-time stool player , and a former german player...He finds both types of bow very comfortable...Dont know why he gave up german come to think of it........

Mike, just curious as to why you play German? I was looking through your profile, and you seem to be from the London area. There's a long standing tradition of French bow there, why would you want to stand out like that?

I play sitting and I've found that Levinson's technique works very well for german sitters.

The idea is that you should not adjust to playing the bass; rather the bass should adjust to you. I play with both legs up on the rung of the stool and I use my left leg to angle the bass according to what string I'm playing. I open my leg to play the E so I have room for the bow and close my leg to bring the G string to my bow.

If you want to try this it is very VERY important that you get a stool which all the rungs are even. If you use one of the wooden stools with off-set rungs, it will make your spine crooked and cause some nasty pain.

Good luck!

Good point. You could also grab a french bow, stand/sit with ease and comfort either way, and not look like you're chopping meat :smug:

Good point. You could also grab a french bow, stand/sit with ease and comfort either way, and not look like you're chopping meat :smug:It looks to me like Snakewood is trolling for a religious argument.

I never felt comfortable sitting until I subbed for a friend who sat on a roc n soc drum throne. Saddle seat with a back for those interested. Soon after, I broke my left thumb and the chair has proved invaluble after rehab, taking a lot of work off of my hands and transporting it to my body. I've definitely found a place for me that I can comfortably bow the E string, however like all bows, basses, people everyone is different, and I'm only stating what works for me. I've not found any other stool, chair etc. (and I'm looking) to be as comfortable as the roc n soc. Peace. ASG

It looks to me like Snakewood is trolling for a religious argument.

hehe, nah; I think we've all heard the bow battle argument too many times. I think both bows have their strong points, I'm just one for poking at my German brothers :smug:

I'm sure that they also get a kick out of French players after about 10 minutes of FFFF on the E string, waving bye-bye with their still-working right hand as the EMS runs the compatriot to the ER.

I'm sure that they also get a kick out of French players after about 10 minutes of FFFF on the E string, waving bye-bye with their still-working right hand as the EMS runs the compatriot to the ER.
:) :) :) :) :) :)

anyone here sit and play a German bow? my teacher plays french. i have been taking inspiration from Gary Karr ( and a bit from Alan Karr re. January give up smoking) but he stands and uses the hole arm which is impossible sitting. i use more of a wrist action. my teacher says it's fine but does anyone have any thoughts about if i am going to run into problems later on? any players you could name that i could try and find photos of who sit and play German bow? i would appreciate the tip.

The whole advantage of German is that you get to use the whole arm without ever feeling like you're "holding up" the bow. I use a lot of Gary's ideas for my bow hold, even while playing seated - Full Time.
It's easy to play with either both legs on the stool or with the right leg on the floor; either way, thinking of Alexander-type alignment and muscle-use.
Gotta run; more later,

The whole advantage of German is that you get to use the whole arm without ever feeling like you're "holding up" the bow.I play both bows and don't understand this distinction that you are making. I'm an advocate for using the whole arm whenever possible and the only time I feel like I'm holding the bow up is when it is not resting on the string.

Don't you guys ever feel awkward bowing the E? or What if you have a five string? I'm asking this sincerely, cause I was tried playing german on a five string while standing and I just couldnt get the hang of it. Does the process of tilting the bass back and forth get difficult in fast passages?

:) :) :) :) :) :)I've switched to the Freedom Stick myself, incidently...

I play both bows and don't understand this distinction that you are making. I'm an advocate for using the whole arm whenever possible and the only time I feel like I'm holding the bow up is when it is not resting on the string.

If you play both bows, then you know! It's especially obvious with beginners, as to the "holding-up" feelings.

Someone else explained it better; you feel it most after 5 minutes of Tchaikowski Quadruple-Forte on the E string....

Anyway, both bows can be played in the seating posture easily. Standing posture actually can require more adjustments for German bow, but it's never on-the-fly; if a lick comes up that you actually change the angle of the bass for, the angle is changed for the whole lick.

I understand the problems that go along with being a german bow player and now I sit to get around them. While I think that there certainly is a method to standing and playing (Karr's,) I follow Simandl and standing was just not easy. This is really true once I started getting into much harder material. Time was also an issue. I love Gary Karr, but he is not playing in an ochestra for a four hour opera...thus he can stand with ease.

Playing sitting down freed up both hands and now I am able to work passages easier. You should be able to use your entire arm no matter what position you play in and overtime I think you'll find out that certain portions of the arms are better at certain actions and vital to performance. I prefer the folding chair that lemur sells since it is adjustable compared to a bar stool. When I play the bass is not like a cello position and play the E string with ease, try "kicking out your knee" so that the leg is not like a 90 degree angle, but more relaxed and lower to the ground.

About using the wrist alone: This may work for you current material, but just remember that it will not always. Eventually, depending on how advanced the material you study is, you will have to use the entire arm and know which sections need to be used for certain technique.

anyone here sit and play a German bow? my teacher plays french. i have been taking inspiration from Gary Karr ( and a bit from Alan Karr re. January give up smoking) but he stands and uses the hole arm which is impossible sitting. i use more of a wrist action. my teacher says it's fine but does anyone have any thoughts about if i am going to run into problems later on? any players you could name that i could try and find photos of who sit and play German bow? i would appreciate the tip.

No offence, but if you're only using your wrist you probably have problems right now with you bow arm, no matter what your teacher says is acceptable for the time being. There's no way you can draw the bow from the frog to the tip using only your wrist so I'm guessing you don't explore many parts of the bow when you're playing.

However, I must admit I'm confused by this entire post so maybe I'm reading something wrong. Why can you not use your entire arm sitting down?

No offence, but if you're only using your wrist you probably have problems right now with you bow arm, no matter what your teacher says is acceptable for the time being. There's no way you can draw the bow from the frog to the tip using only your wrist so I'm guessing you don't explore many parts of the bow when you're playing.

However, I must admit I'm confused by this entire post so maybe I'm reading something wrong. Why can you not use your entire arm sitting down?

I have to agree. I don't inderstand how you couldn't use your whole arm while sitting. How are you postioning the bass when seated? Is the rib on the E side against you? If you're postioned in back of the instrument (like playing a cello) the entire fingerboard, and any string crossings needed, are very accessible without having to move either yourself, or the bass, unlike standing.

Dennis

I believe he was referring to drawing a full bow stroke with your arm on the e-string without hitting your right thigh. This can be avoided by not tilting the bass towards you when you play on the e-string, like a cello. Personally I think that's even more difficult unless you have some sort of large stool where you're hovering over the instrument. When I play german using a cello like position, I find it difficult to reach thumb position.

I believe he was referring to drawing a full bow stroke with your arm on the e-string without hitting your right thigh.

That's absolutely what he's talking about. I hate that.

Ya it is quite a pain. It's one of the few reasons why I use a French Bow.

I believe he was referring to drawing a full bow stroke with your arm on the e-string without hitting your right thigh. This can be avoided by not tilting the bass towards you when you play on the e-string, like a cello. Personally I think that's even more difficult unless you have some sort of large stool where you're hovering over the instrument. When I play german using a cello like position, I find it difficult to reach thumb position.

There should be no need to change your seated position to accomodate either bow on the E string.
As Paul Ellison was recently heard saying (being a player and teacher of both bows), [paraphrase:] 'playing the bass is complicated but not difficult. If you find something to be very difficult, it's (likely) because you're making it so. Just get out of the way."

There should be no need to change your seated position to accomodate either bow on the E string.
As Paul Ellison was recently heard saying (being a player and teacher of both bows), [paraphrase:] 'playing the bass is complicated but not difficult. If you find something to be very difficult, it's (likely) because you're making it so. Just get out of the way."

Okay, that's nice. :smug:
I think it might very well have something to do with the individuals body size as well, and especially the length of their arms. I'm sure Mr. Ellison would be titled "god" by now if he published a series of steps in order to play german while sitting without halving to change your body/bass position. Maybe he has? Honest question.

Going back to the original theme of this post, I've found a great difference in comfort depending on the size of the bass. I'm a big tall skinny guy (6'4", 170) and this has always caused me difficulty in playing comfortably. For a while, I was actually playing on a slightly-less-than 3/4 bass (I picked it up because it was only 2k, plywood-free, and sounded really damn good for the price and didnt break the bank). I was having really awful tendonitis problems during this time, and I could never play comfortably for any lenght of time with this bass standing because, even after two custom made endpins, it was never tall enough and I would always lose the bass when doing quick shifts into thumb. I tried to remedy this by playing sitting, but the bass was so damn thin I couldn't reach the E string without CONSIDERABLE acrobatics and I ended up with nasty back pain from doing this. After a performance of beethoven's 6th on this thing one night, I felt like someone had beat me senseless with a baseball bat. Over the summer, I drove down to Lemur and got a new bass, really nice german-made bass that's 3/4 upper bout and 7/8 lower bout, really thick body, not 5-string pollman huge but close. Ever since I started playing on this bass, my tendonitis has almost completely gone away and I can play for much longer periods, sitting or standing, without discomfort. Sitting I have no problem with the E-string , as the bass clears my leg by several inches. Just as a conclusion, I think instrument/person size has a pretty large impact on whether playing german sitting is feasable. Thoughts?

Yes I would agree. But then again Ludwig Streicher was apparently less than 5'4" and he looked extremely comfortable when playing seated.

I've read most of these and I think I fall into a little different category. I started standing with French and left it to sit with a german.

I made the move to the stool this past spring. I saw the definate advantages of making it fine through my 2 hour youth symphony rehearsals. I was teacherless at the time but a friend wanted me to try it since he'd been using the stool so long. I felt pain in my shoulder from long constant play on the g string and began to wonder what to do. About this time I went to the ASoDB and Dr. Morton made me a believer in the German bow. Don't think that he's getting people there to convert them over to a different side, he just noticed I respond better with the German and it feels much more natural to me.

As to stools all I can say is: "FIT THE STOOL TO YOU. FIT THE BASS TO YOU." It blows my mind seeing a bass player with this 30 inch stool that's only about 5'10. Your legs should easily touch the ground at about a 55 degree angle. Like being able to comfortable sit with both feet on the floor. Now the height of the bass should be proportional to where you hand will be while bowing. For French players your finger tips should go about 2-3 past the bridge when your arm is fully extended. German players should should keep their wrists stright and fingers out to their left and their finger should fall about an 1/2 inch from the bridge in the bowing area. Then from here the bass should be rested in that cello position talked about earlier. If anything I try and get the neck further away from my head because it feels unnatural otherwise. Your natural instincts will be to keep the neck close to your head, but I think it helps to have it further away. I still play jazz while standing.

After making all these changes my bass playing has just gone through the roof. I think these changes may help alot of bass players. I still practice standing up sometimes because I believe it to be a very important skill that we have that versatility whereas all cellists sit.

Much Love,
-Jake