I got to see a guy named Ira Gold do a master class a couple of weeks ago, and he performed some of the Beethoven 5th Scherzo stuff.

He did all the 8th notes off-the-string, and it sounded great. So of course, I'm inspired to mirror it. I tightened my bow some more, though I'm not sure why I thought this would have been the answer on reflection, so that the notes on the E-string would speak more clearly.

Besides simply adding more rosin, does anyone out there have additional insight to doing spiccato on the E-string so that sounds like a cannon firing?

Thanks,
Johnny

I don't know if you're playing french or german bow. I play german, and my suggestion would be to start slow and work up the speed, and also make use of the weight and rebound of the bow. Instead of trying to control each bounce with pressure and the muscles in your hand, try to get a natural bounce and then dig in with the weight of your arm. I'd also say don't overtighten your bow; you want it tight enough to get a nice bounce and so it doesn't 'bottom out' but if it's too tight the bounce will be difficult to control. Hope that helps some...

This is my third time trying to reply, and I had lots more to say but I'm too pooped now. Thanks for the info Toman. It's good reading.

I know for a fact that Ira Gold spent hours and hours over the course of years to get his beautiful, heavy spiccato. One must start slow, as already mentioned, and never allow oneself to move up the dial on the metronome until it sounds perfect at the given click. Be sure that up bows are as heavy as down bows, and that the bow is prependicular to the string, in order to get the cleanest sound possible. Beyond that, personal research along with a conception of the desired sound will lead you in the direction. Spiccato is a long, long process... anyone who tells you otherwise probably doesn't sound as refined as he could!
Also, read Portnoi's Creative Bass Technique, an extraordinary "Boston sound" guide book, along with daily practise of Zimmerman's Contemporary Concept of Bowing (I think that's the title).

Why did this message board have to get changed with all this doodad stuff that kills me when I try to write anything??!!?!>!!>!>!>>KKLASFKLK

Anyway, Thanks TA for additional info. I loved Ira's sound and bouncing bow stroke on the scherzo. He recommended not ignoring Zimmerman's book too, and I pulled it back out last week to bounce my bow with (along with the usual scale stuff). I didn't recall him mention Portnoi though and will look for it.

The Portnoi book seems to be an ASTA publication. Does anyone know anything about this organization? Do I need to be a member or know a member with access to obtain this book?

I am pretty sure Southwest Strings has the book. Go to www.swstrings.com, I think.
Its a very, very "old school" approach so you might find some opposition from the progressive approach of bass playing. Best of luck!

Thanks,
Johnny

Well, I'm doing what I said - the Zimmerman book is getting a workout and the string crossings are being done bouncing bow style. When I first started doing this stuff, I was making this effort to make the bow bounce just about every single time. Now my body has learned to do something I don't really understand yet, and I don't feel like I'm making any effort to make the bow bounce - it's like I'm just letting it happen. Not consistent yet, as sometimes I'll start thinking about it and something happens to keep the bow from dribbling anymore, but it's all starting to sound much smoother and nicer. And the ricochet type bowings are starting to happen with a much nicer sound too. Whatever is happening, it's pretty cool, and I can finally hear that spiccato sound in all those Karl Boehm Mozart recordings.

A delight to hear of your personal success. Often verbal articulation of what "exactly" one is supposed to be doing when executing strokes (or any type of movements for that matter) is not as helpful as it might seem; personal research, trial and error, compounded with a particular sound in mind, are the resources to exhaust, I feel. Don't feel that an even, heavy, loud spiccato has to be accomplished in a matter of weeks, months, or even years, for as soon as it sounds pleasing this week, you will soon figure out that you have the ability and work ethic to make it sound even better! Basically, to make a wordy passage a bit more clear, keep doing what you are doing.

A few tips to make the stroke more even:
-alter the rhythm of stroke. Yes, we must be able to play perfectly even 8th notes, and Zimmerman is full of gorgeous 16ths, however, applying various rhythmic permutations towards a stroke will only strengthen the control, the evenness, and the comfort of the stroke.
-begin difficult exercises with an V bow for an truly engaging Friday night.
-set the metronome on as big of beats as possible (in addition to prior practice with subdivisions). For example, have a click on only the strong beats of measure, then only the down beat, then only every other measure, and so forth. At this point any discrepancy in evenness and perfect time will be GREATLY MADE OBVIOUS. Often this exercise is the both the most frustrating and infuriating, but the most, most helpful.

Best,
Tyler

Thanks very much for the additional exercises and advice Tyler. Friday nights are now my favorite nights!

Johnny

Hey, Super Newb question but... What's a Spiccato? I know my theory but have not heard this word before.


Full of Questions,

-Tim S.

Spiccato's just a term for a classical bowing maneuver and getting specific sounds from the bass with it. It's not really about the left hand or note choices, though one does want to have the bow reach the right string at the right time.

I'm not a DBer (sigh), so I may be wrong, but I believe spiccato it a bowing maneuver in which the bow is bounced off the string with each note, so it decays like a plucked note would.

hi, i would recommend practicing short clean strokes on the string while being relaxed 1st. i try to get clarity on the bottom strings by thinking of getting the same sound as pizzing but using the bow... it's all about pinch and release. just a general idea... hope this makes sense...

If you mean to say that there should be a clear, strong fundamental pitch speaking when the bow gets the string moving, then I understand what you mean.

hi, i would recommend practicing short clean strokes on the string while being relaxed 1st. i try to get clarity on the bottom strings by thinking of getting the same sound as pizzing but using the bow... it's all about pinch and release. just a general idea... hope this makes sense...

"pinch and release"...is that a new uku removal technique?

(sorry all, that was for my homeboy Kurt)

I just recently got to watch the Victoria Bach Festival Orchestra bass section (of which Talkbass's own Paul Determan was a member - GREAT JOB to Paul, Steve and David!!!) perform some great music last Saturday: a Bach piece (of course), a Mozart violin/viola duet with the orchestra providing support, and Beethoven's 5th symphony. Got to watch a whole lot of off the string bowings there, which, of course, has inspired me to continue working on those strokes.

But I didn't realize that the 5th asked for so much off-the-string work throughout. I found out that the scherzo stuff could be done off the string from getting to see Ira Gold do it, but I've never seen the whole piece performed before. Pretty darn cool, since before I thought of this as not a whole lot more than a novelty thing for bassists who want to make Mozart pieces look more exciting or something...maybe lots to learn about the classical repertoire on my part. Is this typical, to see so much bow bouncing on this piece? I was told that it would be played "Viennese Style", is this what was meant?

In a waltz context, Viennese style is a way to swing the beat. I don't remember the exact rhythm.

If you ever get the chance to see a real Austrian or German orchestra, you would be in for a real surprise as soon as you see their bow technique. It is a far different approach than that of a general American approach. They nearly all exclusively play German bow, obviously, and bounce the bow MUCH higher and much more frequently than a general American orchestra would. The "Viennese" style refers to a bow style that has a player bounce nearly incessantly (when possible), and with a grand horizontal motion, sometimes around 2 and half inches off of the string. That is compounded with a much more bow, and a faster speed. German and Austrian orchestras tend to use the whole bow so much of the time, and is quite a different sight than the bow-saving American counterparts.
The difference in sound, is a bit different. The volume of the Vienna Philharmonic seems to be much louder, and the general tone is much more round and fat. Compared to an American orchestra that generally has a softer string sound, yet much more focused, clean, and precise.
Now, OBVIOUSLY I am completely over-generalizing and stereotyping. I don't wish to step on anyone's toes, however these opinions are not exclusively carried by me, and I am sure with observations, another might feel the same. There are videos of Karajan with Vienna, and shots of the bass section that will help clue you into a bit of what they do differently. Check them out; they are amazing.

A side note- the "Viennese style" in a waltz setting, as it was mentioned before, has an early 2nd beat, and either a perfectly placed 3rd beat, or even a late 3rd beat.

Thanks guys for both the waltz rhythm and the Wiener uber-stroke explanations. I'll look for Karajan on video and scope out the performances.

The Warsaw chamber orchestra hit town a few years ago, with one young fellow playng bass (devilish looking longhair with a musical wit, who wasn't afraid to smile as he played). He had a hammer stroke with the German bow that was totally remarkable, and used it all evening. The rhythmic pulsations of this gave a whole new meaning to the word "chamber music."

I've never seen it in the U.S., and studied it to where I had it pretty well cultivated on a French bow. I had occasion to use it once, in St. Andrews Episcopal at Jackson, MS. The organ player was English trained, and even gave me a slight raise of the eyebrows, while the orchestra members wondered just what I was doing. Rhythm!

A hard spiccato, hammered into the bass. But is this called "spiccato" or is it "hammer stroke"? Whichever, it's remarkable what it does to a lively chamber piece.

I've read of hammer strokes in the x2 bass board, but it was in reference, if my poor memory serves me well here, to the thumb placement on French bows. Makes sense that it's some spiccato flavored stroke, but I really have no clue.

Hey, now, you're talking about hammer strokes in your post above...what are they really?

This is a flamboyant bow technique, best with German bow, raised high of the strings and virtually drummed onto the strings, but (maybe) with some spiccato east and west. Mostly drumming, and produces a "bong" (excuse reference) sort of sound ...hammer, rebound, repeat... think like a drummer.

I played both German and French, depending on the situaton, and tried it on French after awhile - towards the middle to the tip 1/3 of the bow. Seems to work. Need a real tight bow! If you like flamboyant and "show," as well as rhythm - that's the method.

I also wonder if some of the old, very short, deep German bows might not have been specifically designed for this. You don't see many of those any more, though - about half the length of a normal bow, twice the depth the stick sometimes even arced upwards. There was one for sale on e-bay awhile ago, and long ago, I sold a bass to a fellow who used one. You can almost play "slap bass" with 'em. "Dragonetti bow?"

Neat. When I first started spiccato I was directed to "dribble" the bow as if it was a basketball, but I think your "think like a drummer" idea works great too as a conceptual starting point, especially for those who've put sticks to the skins.

I've been reading a little of a book by Menuhin on violin technique, and he recommends learning ricochet strokes as a precursor to spiccato rather than teaching spiccato first. I thought that was an interesting idea, as I've been working on richochet along with spiccato to keep from getting bored with just doing spiccato all the time. I think he is trying to get violin players to focus on landing on the string with just the bow's weight and avoid that crunching sound. That's what I try to do to make it sound gorgeous.

It's really good for "landings." I think bass players can get ground into the "on the string" hole in the U.S. I've had teachers who said - "On the string!" Emphatically. And that's important, too. I practice both ways - Staccatos on string, spiccatos and hammered (?) off. Flare - goes with bass playing. Good to watch. Bridge has to be just a little more rounded though - or grooved deeper. Not to catch two strings at once. Fun is the game, to me (no matter how hard I have to work at it).

American symphony bass sections don't look like they are enjoying themselves, always. And eveyone knows, bass players can only get about so serious.

That's probably because most American orchestras are right on the verge of financial collapse.

Aren't we all!?

There's an old painting (print) hanging on a wall in a Mississippi antebellum mansion, of nine bass players playing us out. Don't know if your familiar with that painting, nor do I remember who dunnit. I figure that'll be who it's gonna end.

I practice spiccato starting by playing 8th notes for 3 beats of the measure then 16th notes on the 4th beat. With metronome of course; repeat until it gets comfortable then go to 2 beats 8th notes, 2 beats 16th notes...then 1 beat 8th notes 3 beats 16th notes....

Finally you can break into a steady 16th note pattern at that tempo. Then as someone else suggested alter the 8th note/16th note pattern. When that really settles in increase the tempo by 1 (ONLY) bpm.

I learned this from my drum teacher, a Berklee grad. This is how drummers develop single-stroke roll speed.

This is one of the only exercises you can safely do while "distracted", e.g. reading email, watching TV, as it is largely developing muscle control and that just plain takes time. Sometimes I purposely distract myself so I can get more time in on a given exercise before I give in to boredom. I know it is not good to not be totally focused, but this is the only way I can get around my naturally short attention span and increase the effectiveness of a simple exercise.

I have to come up with a lot of tricks to try to make a good bassist out of myself as my attention span is about 2 seconds long and I tend to constantly be thinking of 3 or 4 things at once and do things like read a book, watch TV, eat supper and write all at the same time. It's a handicap.

I practice next to the computer as I use a lot of MIDI tunes to play along with. It also helps in prompting me to repeat exercises more times.

Steve who plays with Victoria Bach is a great player! What a huge sound and controlled tone.

This works for German bow. Take your rosin in container, tie about a yard-long piece of string to it and tie the other end to your arm right above the elbow. Let the container hang down near the floor while you are playing. You will have to rotate your bass to the right somewhat so you can watch the string and play your open 'A' at the same time. Work on your spiccato using only wrist and fingers and generating a very short, dry 'tick'. It takes a fairly high bounce. When your motion is isolated to the hand, your elbow is all but motionless, and the string will move in an almost vertical motion, bouncing the rosin and hardly swaying.

It's pretty difficult to start working on isolating your hand from your elbow without physically holding your right forearm still with the left hand until the right wrist becomes strong enough. Needless to say it's challenging to play the bass while holding your right forearm with your left hand. Watching the string just makes it easier to isolate that motion.

Ah made that up mah self.

Spiccato driven by the wrist and fingers is what my teacher recommends. He has been in Houston sym. 41 years and really makes this look EFFORTLESS. Great control at speeds I can't begin to approach.

I'm guessing that ultimately the weight of the whole arm MUST be used to get a heavy fortissimo, but control from the hand can be a key to velocity. This is another way spiccato crosses over from drums - speed of repeated strikes mostly comes from rotation of the wrist - similar to the left hand of a drummer (traditional grip) - with horizontal motion supplied by the fingers (like a drummer's right hand).

Watching a drummer, you can see that just like bass, fortissimo utilizes the weight of the arm all the way from the shoulder. Not force, but inertia (like a karate chop). Since the surface we are striking is springy and naturally rebounds, force is not necessary and inertia is all you need.

Or is it...LOVE is all you need?

:)

Steve who plays with Victoria Bach is a great player! What a huge sound and controlled tone.

Yes, Steve is a great player. Yee haw! :D

I've found that my most preferred spiccato sound comes almost entirely from the bow's weight alone. If I let any part of my arm, wrist, or fingers stiffen, then I lose a part of the bow's weight and get a less-than pleasant sound out of my spiccato.

If you ever get the chance to see Paul Ellison demonstrate a spiccato, and you decide that it is a gorgeous sound as I do, then you'll want to work on letting the bow do the work for you while you sit back and enjoy the tone as your teacher does. Paul might even lift some fingers off the bow in random patterns while it bounces to prove that he is "driving" the bow as little as possible.

But yes, the bow is still connected to one's hand, arm and body, and that makes it a little more difficult to argue that they are not all working together somehow. It's all concept stuff. The important part is the result - getting the sound you hear in your head and want.

I've found that my most preferred spiccato sound comes almost entirely from the bow's weight alone. If I let any part of my arm, wrist, or fingers stiffen, then I lose a part of the bow's weight and get a less-than pleasant sound out of my spiccato.

....

But yes, the bow is still connected to one's hand, arm and body, and that makes it a little more difficult to argue that they are not all working together somehow. It's all concept stuff. The important part is the result - getting the sound you hear in your head and want.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I think I know what you're saying - not to "drive" or "force" it? I know it's possible to hold oneself back by over-analyzing, or by focusing too much on one physical aspect of the motion, instead of going for the sound. I've been working on things like keeping the forearm still so I can develop the strength in my wrist/hand. I apologize for dragging in another drummer reference but if you ever get a chance to see (live or on video) Dennis Chambers for example. He is so relaxed he looks as if he is hardly doing anything, but he puts out the volume! Most of the time, all you can see moving is his pinkies. When he really gets going fast, his finger motion is a blur and all you can see moving is his mouth chewing gum. He is just so controlled, although you can see he is moving between surfaces that are 2 and 3 feet apart, it never looks like he is reaching or making an effort to strike the exact center of each head. His body is virtually motionless.

Anyway, that relaxed absence of extraneous motion seems to be a sign of a very high level of development. Once the required strength and precision are in place, KWIM?

I've seen Paul E. demonstrate and the lifting different fingers part. He is spectactular.

Anyway, that relaxed absence of extraneous motion seems to be a sign of a very high level of development. Once the required strength and precision are in place, KWIM?

I don't know what KWIM means, but yeah, I agree. The best I can do is refer to The Inner Game of Tennis again to offer any sort of intellectual understanding over the matter. For me, it's all about knowing what I want to sound like, woodshedding, and then listening to recordings of myself for observation and comparison...and none of these things remain in stasis. As I learn and experience more, I find that my mental picture evolves along with my technique and confidence. And this is barring my developing understanding of music, how and what can be expressed, the tools of intonation, rhythm, melody, harmony, blah blah blah. I'll stop now before I get lost and can't find my way back to my bass...

Glad you've gotten to see Paul E. too!

Know What I Mean?

Thanks Marcus!