This is Jasmedias son. And I wanted to hear which of those 2 bass players is better. Flea (red hot chili peppers's bassist) and Victor Wooten (soloist and bassist of flecktones). Thank's alot.
Nick

and this is going to start a war by the way...

but i generally thing that victor could play anything that flea can, but not the other way around.

i'd take victor on that bet anyday....

Ditto.

But shouldn't this thread be in the "Bassists" section of Talkbass?

[Edited by JimS on 02-12-2001 at 07:19 AM]

Yo, word, I'm with that, but if they had a sword fight, Flea would win hands-down.

Victor Wooten is so much better than Flea, that to compare the two is almost laughable.

QUOTE: "Victor Wooten is so much better than Flea, that to compare the two is almost laughable."

If Mr Wooten is so much "better" why doesnt he "sell" as many records?

You're "better" than me cause you can play faster, but I'm "better" than you casue what I play sounds nice.

better worse better worse better worse better worse better worse better worse better worse better worse better worse better worse better worse better worse better worse better worse better worse better worse better worse better worse better worse better worse better worse better worse better worse better worse better worse better worse better worse better worse.

Arthur - Since when is record sales ANY kind of measure of musical ability ? I'm surprised that you even threw that one into the argument.Let's see that would make Bill Wyman better than Jaco, wouldn't it? Oops sorry, Jaco didn't have other good musicians in his band like Wyman did.The point is thay my Wyman/Jaco comparison is about as pointless as your statement.

DaveB - It was supposed to be pointless. I used that ridiculous arguement to highlight that I don't believe it possible to objectively determine "better" in terms of music... and that the statement "Victor Wooten is so much better than Flea" is equally as pointless as saying "Record sales are the measure of musicianship".

I'd even agree with this:

"i generally think that victor could play anything that flea can, but not the other way around".

But could Wooten write those lines... No, cause he's not Flea and vice versa. IMO Flea & Wooten are great becasue they write fantastic music, not becasue either can play 'real fast' - how can "better" or "worse" be determined on the basis of what they can play?

Another One Bites the Dust is a fantastic bassline, but it sure aint difficult to play.

Arthur - Thank you for clearing that up for me. I can now go on reading your good posts knowing that there may be a degree of sarcasm in your opinions.I happen to agree with you but I do think that "playing" and "writing" are two very different skills that are not mutually exclusive.If a comparison between Flea and Wooten ( or anybody and anybody) were even valid it would have to be as player to player separate from writer to writer. Nobody will ever accuse John Lennon of being a good guitar player compared to just about anybody...but writing...that's a different story.

I should really change my pseudonym to Arther 'sarcastic' Daily, as I am a bit of a smart-arse.

Yes, I agree writing & playing are sooooo different. The term bassist then should apply to both? or should it?

I see it like this the people here that have played bass for more than 10 years of there life and truly understand a bass in the way that a great bass player would would say that vic was a hell of alot better but i love to listen to flea play!And no record sales dont mean anything guys are you saying that the bass player from goo goo dolls is better than vic because they have sold more cds?Go to there shows and see both of them live and you tell me who is the best ive seen them both live and flea did a small 20 sec solo that a could pic up in a hour or so but old vic played a 30 min solo that i set there with my mouth open!Bela fleck has sold alot of albums with vic and maybe vic hasnt sold alot of solo stuff but take flea out of the chili pepper and off of mtv for awhile and have him do a solo album lets just see how many cds he sells!Lets stop comparing bass players its silly nad childish!To comapre bass players thay would all have to play the exact same things and we dont want that!To be a great bass player you dont just have to be fast or mean with a sword you have to be creative!

Spaces, Eric, spaces.

Well, Victor always looks like he's in pretty good shape, but Flea's got that scrappy, crack-head quality about him . . . kinda like those guys you hear about, getting all hopped-up on angel dust and taking a chestful of lead from a 9mm but keep on running. I think I'll take Flea to win on a TKO in the 12th round.

Oh, weren't we talking about boxing? ;)

Originally posted by Deeter
Oh, weren't we talking about boxing? ;)


Nah, we're talking about swordfighting :)

I like Flea's lines better but Victor's stuff is a lot more challenging and technical. I like them both and I don't really think they should be compared since they play different genres of music. I won't say it, I won't say it, aw, what the hell. IT'S LIKE APPLES AND ORANGES....:D

OK I think this is the best place for this ?
I am getting married in August what is better Fish, Chicken, Beef, or Pasta.......Wait I think I got it that is why there is a choice.... Sorry nevermind......

By the way I find Vic's music more enjoyable, but then again N'Sync sells more cds.......

"By the way I find Vic's music more enjoyable, but then again N'Sync sells more cds......."

There you have it. N'Sync's bassist (or synth) is obvioulsy the root cause of their success, he must be a genius.

This is a stoopid debate, and I'm even stoopider for replying to it! I wonder if Flea could play Victor's bebop lines at 350bpm on the New Nashville Cats album, let alone the solo that Victor unleashes 3/4 thru. I'm talking 1/8th notes, dude!!!

"This is a stoopid debate, and I'm even stoopider for replying to it!"

...Amen, but I just cant help myself....

"I wonder if Flea could play Victor's bebop lines at 350bpm on the New Nashville Cats album..."

I'd like to hear this. Mainly because I cant undertsand how playing at that speed is anything but showing off and I want to see if it actually sounds 'good'?

I'd also like to point out that both Flea and Wooten are guilty of blatent "look how fast I am" playing - which in my book is pretty sad. Surely it's not much differnet from the metal guitarist widdling away in his bedroom?

I dont know any of Wootens stuff, Please advise and I'll buy some, but I've seen and heard a few things here and there. I'll bet that neither of these players are at their best while 'showing off' and knocking out breakneck solos?

I think it all comes down to this:

Flea IS better than Wooten, because he is shorter, sells more records, has a silly hair cut and a sparkley signeture bass.

Anyoen disagree: come round my house and my Dad will beat you up.

Originally posted by Gel


Nah, we're talking about swordfighting :)

So more like, <i>Crouching Tiger, Hidden Crackhead</i>? :D

Wooten. A "Show Of Hands" on this one?

FLEA ALL THE WAY. And besides, do u think Either of them care who is better than who? Would u actually walk up to flea and say "HEY FLEA U F'N SUCK VICTOR WOOTEN CAN PLAY BETTER THAN U CAN U LOSER".





p.s the Person who said speed is a show-off thing just cant play fast

Selling records does not mean your a great bass player. Jaco was one of the greatest bass players ever. And in the last year(s) of his life, he lived out of his bass case. It is a very sad story. Your reasoning (son of the j?????? dude) would mean that Feedy or whatever (the bass player for korn (i hate korn, or krap)) is a much better bass player than jaco, wooten, and other bass greats. No one is the greatest bassist on earth. How could that be rated? use of harmonics? tone? overall bass playing ability? impact? innovation? ability to read music, etc.

if you have never listened to the Flectones or "A Show of Hands" or any of vic's stuff don't even bother to post. You just show how ignorant you are. It angers me. It is like those people "Kirk Hammet is the best guitar player ever!!!" "Stevie Ray Vaughn who? Nokie Edwards Who? James Burton who? ..."

Don't judge untill you investigate. Jaco Pastorius once said "keep your mind open to all music." i think that is a great quote. Of couse that was before nsync, but are they clasified as music? Flea isn't an awful bass player, he just, in my opinion, is not as nearly as good as victor. Victor has better stats in every category over flea except biting heads off of chickens. I think Vic is definately one of the most talented, even at his young age.

"p.s the Person who said speed is a show-off thing just cant play fast"
>>>That is a stupid comment. You have no idea how I can play: fast, slow, standing on my head, with two my fingers up my a**e?

"Flea isn't an awful bass player, he just, in my opinion, is not as nearly as good as victor. Victor has better stats in every category over flea except biting heads off of chickens."

>>>No that's Ozzy Ozzbourne and it was a bat. If you mean 'technically' better, I'm in agreeance. If you just mean "better" I'd that's impossible to judge. How can YOU say which bass player is "better", really? I mean if we lived in a democracy and put it to the people you KNOW who would win! (I'm not serious about this arguement I'm just making a point!)... and "stats", STATS, you cant relate music in statistics for God's sake!!!

"If you have never listened to the Flectones or "A Show of Hands" or any of vic's stuff don't even bother to post. You just show how ignorant you are. It angers me."

>>>Are you calling me ignorant becasue I've never heard Victor Wooten??? My opinion is perfectly valid whether I have heard his studio work or not. I've seen him play about 3 solos from the Ampeg site and yes it was very impressive, but it was also blatent showing off... what makes him so great for showing off??? Flea showed off in the Mothers Milk era and that was just a dumb-ass look-at-me thing, so what makes Wooten any different?

Recommend me an album with Wooten playing on and I'll buy it and I promise you I'll still be in no position to say which bass player is better.

Please don't comment that I am closed minded towards music, even in a general sentence. It really pisses me off, you have no idea what I listen to and why.

Wow someone made this dude mad! Get any of vics stuff or better yet go see him live! I really like alot of what flea has done! But then again ive seen them both live and man vic s a stud! What flea considers a solo is what vic plays all the time! When vic does a solo you will never forget it!

Wow someone made this dude mad!
>>being caled ignorant is pretty insulting...


Honestly I get annoyed with whole "slag off Flea thing" it just annoys me, cause I like his playing.

...and Wooten does show off (hey who wouldnt if they coudl play like that?)

whoa, stress out. sorry about that guys.

Next pay-day I will buy some Wooten, some Jaco and possibly Tony Levins solo album?

Then I'll eb able to join in good and proper, AAh, HAA< HAAAA!

Originally posted by arther daily
Honestly I get annoyed with whole "slag off Flea thing" it just annoys me, cause I like his playing.

Good point, Arthur. I really don't understand the need to compare two guys who only have an instrument in common. It would be like comparing Boots Randolph (the guy who did, "Yackity Sax," used as Benny Hill's theme song) and Coltrane. Yes, they're both tenor men, yes they both excelled at what they did, and yes they both lived around the same time. But do those to points make what they did similar enough to compare?

The question that's really being asked here is, "Which style is more valid?" And to answer that question definitively, you need to be able to know your stuff enough defend your point. And to be able to defend your point well enough, you will have to have a commanding knowlegdge of Aesthetics, the study of which, dates back to Ancient Greece, Aristotle, and perhaps beyond. And even then, there are people who probably still know more about the topic than you, unless of course you've got your PhD in Aesthetics.

Now I don't know about you, but I don't have the time, patience, or interest enough, to go for that PhD in Aesthetics . . . not to mention it would cut immensely in to practice time. :) So it's best to preface any comments one might have on style, or taste, with the words, "In my opinion . . ." or some reasonable facsimile thereof.

So to quote Dennis Miller, "Of course, that's just my opinion, I may be wrong." :D

I couldn't resist. I had to jump in here!

Ok, call me stoopeed with a capital 'S', but I didn't even know who Flea was before today. So I read through this thread and I'm thinking to myself, this Flea guy must be pretty darn good to be compared to Wooten. Well, I just downloaded some 'bass solo' by him (Flea). All I can say is....

:D

(So shoot me!)

i'm not saying anyone is ignorant if they never heard victor wooten. I'm saying that person is ignorant if they judge victor wooten and never listened to him. I was talking to the person that said something like "I don't know who the hell victor is but Flea can @#$% his @#$%" or something like that. That message ticked me off. It is the equivalent of saying "i've never used roundwounds before, but flatwounds are much better."

1st of all, I do agree that comparing flea and vic is stupid and pointless. But honestly, vic is a much better bass player technically. Which is in itself a stupid arguement.

Finally, a friend of my dad knows victor wooten, and when he found out I was a bass player, he gave me some tapes of vic he had. They blew me away, and they wernt just his normal solo stuff, he was playing "real" bass. But he was amazing still.

Originally posted by XavierG
I couldn't resist. I had to jump in here!

Ok, call me stoopeed with a capital 'S', but I didn't even know who Flea was before today. So I read through this thread and I'm thinking to myself, this Flea guy must be pretty darn good to be compared to Wooten. Well, I just downloaded some 'bass solo' by him (Flea). All I can say is....

:D

(So shoot me!)

If you're talking about the famed 'Rare Flea Bass Solo' you get off Napster, I strongly do not think that is Flea.I'm sure Arther Daily would agree with me :)

Anyway, cap it off, I like both their music. they are different musicians and you cannot compare them unless you are doing it on a 'technique with a bass' where Victor has an obvious superiority, but as far as the music goes, you cannot compare them.
I think personally technique is nothing and substance is everything in music. Technique is only good for getting a better understanding of the instrument. Just like theory. The more control you have over the instrument, the more expression you can get out. IMHO of course, I know lots of people see music differently to me.

!"If you're talking about the famed 'Rare Flea Bass Solo' you get off Napster, I strongly do not think that is Flea.I'm sure Arther Daily would agree with me"

-Aiiigght!

That AINT Flea, no way dude.

OK yeah oof the little I've seen of MR Wooten he is damned impressive adn I'd guess he could play anything Fkea could and then some.

But Flea is still very cool for a short ugly bloke!

Originally posted by arther daily

That AINT Flea, no way dude.


Why do you say that? I mean I've heard the thing and it sounds possibly like something that some no name person could have done and they thought it sounded like flea so they called it that and let it go around napster, kind of like that Les Claypool and Stanley Clarke song there is going around there (that isn't either of them). But even if it's not Flea, I'm sure he could play it anyway. The mp3 I have says it's from some outtakes and demos '85-'88 tape. Besides, it's mostly a bunch of fast slapping popping stuff, and that's the main thing flea did back then.

Oh yeah, and to comment on the original subject of this thread, I don't think Flea would even compare himself to Vic. Their styles are totally different. Vic (I think) learned all his stuff from jazz and probably some classical training, I don't know. Flea started on bass when he was a teenager and learned was influenced by a bunch of punk and funk bands (most of his jazz influences would probably come from his trumpet playing). Flea has said himself that he wishes he knew more jazz and technical kind of musical knowledge, so if you're comparing the two in terms of technical ability, it's obvious that there's no comparison. I still like flea better. Just shows that you can't say who is better and it's up to the listener I guess.

Flea all the way!!!

This is pointless trying to compare two brilliant bass players ,It annoys me when someone does or asks this because bass players should' nt be compared and everyone has their own taste. I'd say that newer bass players who are usually listening to contemporary mostly will say Flea is better , but more experienced players who know a wide variety of bass players and listen to all music will know that Victor Wooten is better. I hope the author of this did not ask this question to get everyones feedback then count whether Flea or Victor Wooten had the highest amount of votes then say for instance Flea is better because the majority of people said he was.

I personally know that Mr Wooten is in a different league and more superior than Flea. Ask Flea himself and he'll give you an answer!

Ok, everyone keeps posting these huge replys that say, in essence, "This is stupid, you can't compare the two." Ok, then what's the point of posting another post that says the same thing as the last post? I'm beginning to think that those jokes about us "bull headed bass players" are all true...

This is stupid. You can't compare the two.

:)

Brilliant...

:) :)

I think Flea is more versatile and writes better songs that Wooten, but it's hard to compare I think. Wooten slaps fast as hell, which is cool, but the stuff I've heard of him (not that much) is hella' repetitive.

/lovebown

Is Flea really shorter than Victor? I mean Vic's just this side of a midget, Flea must be the shortest bass player ever.
who is better ? well they are both better than me.

Originally posted by Lovebown
I think Flea is more versatile and writes better songs that Wooten, but it's hard to compare I think.
/lovebown
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight! Lovebown, use the big-boy voice when you're in the bass chamber!

Originally posted by blackwell68
Is Flea really shorter than Victor? I mean Vic's just this side of a midget, Flea must be the shortest bass player ever.
who is better ? well they are both better than me.

I think Flea is a bit taller.

Originally posted by Lovebown
I think Flea is more versatile and writes better songs that Wooten, but it's hard to compare I think. Wooten slaps fast as hell, which is cool, but the stuff I've heard of him (not that much) is hella' repetitive.

/lovebown

Actually that description fits Flea better than Vic IMO...

Originally posted by JMX


Actually that description fits Flea better than Vic IMO...


I don't really think Wooten's music is bad, but it doesen't really connect to me.
Flea's lines on songs on like Aeroplane are just tremendous. ALthough I think Sinister Minister for example is a cool song it don't got that much soul. Just my opinion...

/lovebown

..maybe it's the simplicity and lack of jazzness in Fleas playing that makes him more accessable.

i love jazz, but when it's full-on it's not easy to listen to, like full-on rock, punk, funk or practically any other style.

Originally posted by arther daily
..maybe it's the simplicity and lack of jazzness in Fleas playing that makes him more accessable.

i love jazz, but when it's full-on it's not easy to listen to, like full-on rock, punk, funk or practically any other style.

I must be misunderstood you with the full-on thing..

Ever heard the remixed Search And Destroy by The Stooges?

Ive seen them both in concert wooten would walk all over flea! But i can see why alot of people out there like flea better! If you arent crazy about new age jazz then you arent going to like vic! The same thing about Jaco and Pat Methany if you dont like hard core new age jazz then you will have a very hard time swallowing it! Dont get me wrong flea is a very good bass player but ive seen alot better in my travels in jazz clubs and blues bars in my life! Trust me there are alot of big fat black men down south that can just rip fleas head off! The people that dont get this need to go to a large city go down town and see some jazz shows! You might not like the music put to watch them play is awsome! Kansas city has some awsome jazz clubs!

Originally posted by eric atkinson
Ive seen them both in concert wooten would walk all over flea! But i can see why alot of people out there like flea better! If you arent crazy about new age jazz then you arent going to like vic! The same thing about Jaco and Pat Methany if you dont like hard core new age jazz then you will have a very hard time swallowing it! Dont get me wrong flea is a very good bass player but ive seen alot better in my travels in jazz clubs and blues bars in my life! Trust me there are alot of big fat black men down south that can just rip fleas head off! The people that dont get this need to go to a large city go down town and see some jazz shows! You might not like the music put to watch them play is awsome! Kansas city has some awsome jazz clubs!

Flea doesen't try to be the fastest slapper in the world, I'm sure he could be if he wanted to though. People underestimate the guy, because he seems all "drugged out" but I'm telling you that guy is one sharp mother****er actually.

Originally posted by Lovebown
People underestimate the guy [Flea]
On the contrary, I've never heard anyone underestimating him. Judging by people's view on Flea, I'd say he's... oooh, I hate to say this... overrated (yes, ratings are overrated, I know). He is a very good bass player, no doubt about it, but if people were noted for their skills rather than their looks and attitude, there are hundreds of bass players that would get more attention than Flea (Vic W being one of them). I think the majority of people who like Flea, mainly do so because he's cool, and plays in a well-known band.

Ya like i said trust me when i say there are hundreds of bass players out there that arent in huge bands that play in small clubs that are much better! Plus think of all the studio bass players around the world!

Originally posted by Oysterman
I think the majority of people who like Flea, mainly do so because he's cool, and plays in a well-known band.

That's true, the majority of people do. But another thing about that would be Flea has introduced many people to bass playing.

I remember, when I was like 7 or something (probably one of my first musical recollection that really touched me) I was listening to radio in some car and I heard Under The Bridge (call me a sucker, whatever) and I pretty much freaked because I realised there was this big thick guitar under there and it was so beautiful and touching I couldn't believe it. AND YOU COULD HEAR IT (what? bass guitar audible on the RADIO?? :)).
Not to mention John Frusciante is a genius (everyone go buy his new solo CD, it's pretty easily available unlike his previous 2)

I just wanted to share that.

Originally posted by Oysterman

On the contrary, I've never heard anyone underestimating him. Judging by people's view on Flea, I'd say he's... oooh, I hate to say this... overrated (yes, ratings are overrated, I know). He is a very good bass player, no doubt about it, but if people were noted for their skills rather than their looks and attitude, there are hundreds of bass players that would get more attention than Flea (Vic W being one of them). I think the majority of people who like Flea, mainly do so because he's cool, and plays in a well-known band.

Say what you want about Flea, but he has contributed more to bass playing and music in general than what Wooten ever will probably (but Wooten is still a badass bassist).
RHCP pretty much founded a new genre.

"Ya like i said trust me when i say there are hundreds of bass players out there that arent in huge bands that play in small clubs that are much better! Plus think of all the studio bass players around the world!"

I agree 100% - the guy that plays straight 8ths on Tina Turners album, or the bloke who worked live with Elton John in the 70's could most likely play Flea (and most 'band-famous' bass players) in circles.... but I still love Fleas playing.

I forgot all about this thread.My 14 year old son posted this.Victor Wooten is his favorite but he likes Flea's vibe. Thanks for all the responses even for the insulting ones.We should end this here and now as I wonder if my son is the adolescent or some of the people who responded.

I'm 26 and still haven't grown up... if I'm lucky I never will!!!

Originally posted by arther daily

I agree 100% - the guy that plays straight 8ths on Tina Turners album, or the bloke who worked live with Elton John in the 70's could most likely play Flea (and most 'band-famous' bass players) in circles.... but I still love Fleas playing.

You are nearly as sarcastic as me. That's a new one :)

Flea, comercially, has had a lot of success, but I am going to have to put Wooten on top, I mean come on.

Originally posted by Lovebown


Say what you want about Flea, but he has contributed more to bass playing and music in general than what Wooten ever will probably (but Wooten is still a badass bassist).
RHCP pretty much founded a new genre.

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Alright. You people have p@#ed me off. I'm now going to tell you how it really goes. My definition of being better at bass playing/music etc. is based on two criteria.
The first basically has to do with the ability of others to emulate what you can do. The harder it is for others to emulate what you can do, the more value I place upon the playing(etc.). Maybe 1 in 500 can play exactly dead-on like Flea, but with Vic it is closer to 1 in 5,000.
The second criterion consists of a unique view, perspective, take on the instrument. The more unique you are, the better you are IMO. The first criterion could be a part of this, but I believe it is important enough to stand alone. Now in this I include musical vision, techniques, bass line writing, and a host of other things, but I will simplify the comparison like this.
Flea took a single technique from Larry Graham, Louis Johnson, etc. and infused it into punk/pop rock. He directly copped most of his material from existing players or by directly emulating their style. He is very good at what he does, but when you put into perspective (while also being subjective) all he did was introduce a new generation to the playing of old masters. This in itself is not bad, but contrary to popular belief, he is not a ground-breaking bass player
Victor Wooten took the time to master an array of techniques as well as melody and harmony. He took the same slapping technique that Flea and others use and he expanded it and made it his own by slightly altering the mechanics of it. He also uses tapping a bit and he seems to have excelled at that as well (albeit not really offering a fresh view on it). He gives the bass (in his bass lines) a fresh, more melodic voice. Basically it is almost the equivalent to a cello voice in an orchestra (or string quartet). He has done the same as Flea in a way, because he borrows bits from Jazz players, Rock players, Bluegrass players, etc., but (unlike Flea) he melds them into his own style. His entire style is just an amalgam of his influences, not a direct copy.
Now, before you go off on a rant concerning the preceding, let me interject this. I've been listening to both bass players for years. I used to listen to "Catholic School Girls Rule" when it first came out. I listened to the Chili Peppers alot until after Mother's Milk came out. But, I was also subjected to the subsequent albums, so I've got a firm grasp on his playing. And, I am well versed in Vic's solo, Bela work as well. I just prefer Vic over Flea.

Yep!

thats right on the money...one thing tho ytsebri. you said "He also uses tapping a bit and he seems to have excelled at that as well" most of his better songs are done with Two Hand Tapping along with harmonics. peace.
Chad

Originally posted by ytsebri
Alright. You people have p@#ed me off. I'm now going to tell you how it really goes. My definition of being better at bass playing/music etc. is based on two criteria.
The first basically has to do with the ability of others to emulate what you can do. The harder it is for others to emulate what you can do, the more value I place upon the playing(etc.). Maybe 1 in 500 can play exactly dead-on like Flea, but with Vic it is closer to 1 in 5,000.
The second criterion consists of a unique view, perspective, take on the instrument. The more unique you are, the better you are IMO. The first criterion could be a part of this, but I believe it is important enough to stand alone. Now in this I include musical vision, techniques, bass line writing, and a host of other things, but I will simplify the comparison like this.
Flea took a single technique from Larry Graham, Louis Johnson, etc. and infused it into punk/pop rock. He directly copped most of his material from existing players or by directly emulating their style. He is very good at what he does, but when you put into perspective (while also being subjective) all he did was introduce a new generation to the playing of old masters. This in itself is not bad, but contrary to popular belief, he is not a ground-breaking bass player
Victor Wooten took the time to master an array of techniques as well as melody and harmony. He took the same slapping technique that Flea and others use and he expanded it and made it his own by slightly altering the mechanics of it. He also uses tapping a bit and he seems to have excelled at that as well (albeit not really offering a fresh view on it). He gives the bass (in his bass lines) a fresh, more melodic voice. Basically it is almost the equivalent to a cello voice in an orchestra (or string quartet). He has done the same as Flea in a way, because he borrows bits from Jazz players, Rock players, Bluegrass players, etc., but (unlike Flea) he melds them into his own style. His entire style is just an amalgam of his influences, not a direct copy.

Now, before you go off on a rant concerning the preceding, let me interject this. I've been listening to both bass players for years. I used to listen to "Catholic School Girls Rule" when it first came out. I listened to the Chili Peppers alot until after Mother's Milk came out. But, I was also subjected to the subsequent albums, so I've got a firm grasp on his playing. And, I am well versed in Vic's solo, Bela work as well. I just prefer Vic over Flea.

Uhm.. you're not making any sense to me. Wootens style is just an amalgam of his influences and Flea just copied ?. Red hot chili peppers invented a new genre of music and wooten has done what? He has made the so-called double-thumb technique popular (he didn't invent it)?

I'm not saying either is "better", but Flea and his band has contributed more to popular music that Wooten has or ever will.

But that's not saying you can't think Wooten is a better bassist of course...

/Lovebown

Originally posted by Lovebown


Red hot chili peppers invented a new genre of music

/Lovebown


What music would that be? Is it just me, or have people like Bad Brains, Fishbone, and Vernon Reid (Living Color, right?) been mixing punk/rock and funk (thrash funk whatever you call it) before Red Hot Chili Peppers?

I could be wrong of course

Fishbone perhaps, I consider Bad brains to be Punk/reggae and Living colour came after Chillies and fishbone I think. Either way, it doesen't really matter, RCHP and a few other bands were highly influental...

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lovebown
Uhm.. you're not making any sense to me. Wootens style is just an amalgam of his influences and Flea just copied
Yes. Wooten fused many styles into his unique style of playing. Flea is one dimensional. Period.
Red hot chili peppers invented a new genre of music and wooten has done what? He has made the so-called double-thumb technique popular (he didn't invent it)?
The RHCP, though unique, haven't even come close to inventing a new genre of music. I don't see a funk/rap/peppers section of music in any retailer. They fused a lot of punk and a tiny bit of funk together and the record buying sheep call them Prometheus. But I digress. I thought this battle was supposed to be between Flea and Wooten, not RHCP and Wooten.
BTW, although others could possibly have dabbled in the double-strike slap (although I've never heard anyone do it.) Wooten has taken it and made it a signature technique. He has refined it. Dare I say the Leo Fender of the double thumb.
I'm not saying either is "better", but Flea and his band has contributed more to popular music that Wooten has or ever will.
Ok. First, neither you nor I can predict the future so your last point is faulty. Second, I agree with the fact that the RHCP, in the past and present, might be a bigger influence to "pop music", but what about to real music? "Pop music" is just a tiny planetary system in the galaxy we call music. And since when does something being more popular than something make it better? They may sell more records, but I assure you my friend, money isn't everything.
But that's not saying you can't think Wooten is a better bassist of course...
I agree.

Well i thought this topic was on "Flea vs Wooten"
not Red Hot Chili Pepers vs Wooten. Keep it to the bass players and not the bands. peace.
Chad

I would like to this one simple reply:

Technique is nothing if you can't make music.
They are both good musicians.

Hey all chili pepper fans if you like that kind of music you should go check out a band that could kill them! screaming headless torsos! They are kinda that music but much better! My point is that there are several bands that play that kind of music that are much better musicians! Any of you that like flea better as a bass player have never had the chance to see vic live! Ohh my god you will stop what your saying in a heart beat!

Flea is one dimensional. Period.

This statement is false. He can slap, play fingerstyle funk, rock, punk, and play with a pick. These are all dimensions of playing. Flea is as diverse in different ways than Vic, I think Vic is much better though!

ok ytsebri, the fact that these two musicians are even being compared has infuriated me too.

For all those who think that playing fast is vics only claim to fame, get on napster and download a 50 min concert with tony rice, fleck, jerry douglas, sam bush, and vic, from 8-4-96. Aside from a short 20 seconds where he burns out some sick syncopation, he plays the entire concert in 4th and 8th note bluegrass style. And regardless, speed really is the only claim that Flea has to accomplishment on the bass, in fact many of the bass lines are transposed directly from practices in progressive's beginner slap book

And what is the deal with people claiming that RHCP has got the Flecktones beat because they are the founders of a new genre??????!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Beside the fact that RHCP really isnt a new genre, Hypothetically even if they were, they still wouldnt come close to the innovation of the Tones, having seen both of these bands live, Ill admit that sometimes (especially with Fusciante) that at some points RHCP actually sounded like music, however, what genre would you classify the Tones as? Bluegrass? Some of the music has Irish or then theres the World music sound? or there is the many songs dominated by Jazz? And you think RHCP can funk? HAHAHHAHAHHAHAH!!! (see vic live)

OK, lets compare some others, how About Fieldy And John Paul Jones, Im really goin with Fieldy guys, I mean while John Paul Jones can play fast, I really just think Korn is such an original band, and in addition they sell a lot of cds and have brought fresh life to popular music
Chuckle Chuckle


COME ON PEOPLE!!!
OPEN YOUR EARS, this is just sad.

Who (or what) is Fieldy? :rolleyes:

"Alright. You people have p@#ed me off. I'm now going to tell you how it really goes."

- Everybody stop and listen He's going to tell us how it REALLY is... Tell Us Oh Great One!

"The first basically has to do with the ability of others to emulate what you can do. The harder it is for others to emulate what you can do, the more value I place upon the playing(etc.)"

>>>So playing fast makes you a cool bass player and playing simple walking lines like Sting, for example, makes you not so good? Rubbish... I compltley disagree... If it's hard for others to emulate what you do it just means you play stuff that's difficult to play.. it could still be utter crap... look at the guitar world for evidence...

Maybe 1 in 500 can play exactly dead-on like Flea, but with Vic it is closer to 1 in 5,000.
>>>No-one can play exctly like Flea or Wooten, they are individuals... it's not what they play it's what they write that makes them so and no two people are the same.

The technicality of a bass players part has absolutely no correlation to it's musical and audio aesthetic value. The Beastie Boys use some amazing groovy bass lines, that are rattley, raspy and badly played, but they sounds great.

"The second criterion consists of a unique view, perspective, take on the instrument. The more unique you are, the better you are IMO. The first criterion could be a part of this, but I believe it is important enough to stand alone. Now in this I include musical vision, techniques, bass line writing, and a host of other things, but I will simplify the comparison like this."
>>Now this I do agree with... but is it more important to be an individual bass player than to write a line that suits the song?


"Flea took a single technique from Larry Graham, Louis Johnson, etc. and infused it into punk/pop rock. He directly copped most of his material from existing players or by directly emulating their style. He is very good at what he does, but when you put into perspective (while also being subjective) all he did was introduce a new generation to the playing of old masters. This in itself is not bad, but contrary to popular belief, he is not a ground-breaking bass player"
>>>Actually no, Flea does not slap like Larry Graham, nobody slaps like Larry Graham. Flea slaps like Flea... in comparing the two directly they have very different styles.
...and who are you to judge that Flea is not a ground breaking bass player...? he has reached and influenced a hell of a lot of people (as has Wooten) - in my view this is pretty ground breaking, no matter how many times it's been done before and will be done again.

Some of Fleas work IS ground breaking... Blood Sugar Sex Magic IS a fantasic album and 20% of that is down to his bass (...20% per instrument 20% production)....

Technical-schmechnical.... To put it bluntly who gives a flying frog how technical a bass player is.

One example: Sting.

"in fact many of the bass lines are transposed directly from practices in progressive's beginner slap book"

...err... so what?

I don't think either of these players is better. I prefer Fleas playing, but that's just taste, nothing more.

But there's no need to slag Flea to prove how good Wooten is.

"at some points RHCP actually sounded like music"

That is really ignorant and dismissive. I'm not saying that to insult you, that's just how the comment comes accross.

If I said the same about the Flecktones you might well think the same thing.

You really cannot be even vaguely objective if you hate the band Flea plays in.


"And you think RHCP can funk? HAHHAHAHHAHAH!!! (see vic live)!"

- Just becasue you don't get 'the RHCP thang' doesnt mean they're crap... that kind of arrogance really gets my goat... at least have some respect for other peoples opinions.

When it comes to technical ability Victor is superior by a handsome margin. I feel they both have written some great bass lines, styles that just can't be compared. All in all it's obvious both of them play from the heart, that's essentially what attracts me to both of them.

"All in all it's obvious both of them play from the heart, that's essentially what attracts me to both of them."

Amen.

Well, I've got all shirty and had my tupence worth, I shall post no more on this subject!

This is my final say on the subject (and on the subject of being technically better). I would rather read a novel written by someone who has had at least some college education (because they have an immense vocabulary they can draw upon to express themselves), than read a novel written by someone with the equivalent of a second grade education.

BTW, the college education has to be in English Lit and Compostion. :D

"I would rather read a novel written by someone who has had at least some college education (because they have an immense vocabulary they can draw upon to express themselves), than read a novel written by someone with the equivalent of a second grade education."

- People who have a college Education have a better vocabulary than those who don't ?.. that, my friend, is prejudice.

I'd prefer to a novel by a good writer, regardless of where or how they got their skills.

Anyway, I have no college education and I still know lots of words, like:

monkey, precipice, judicial, monopolise, knockers, gizmo, computer, t-shirt, concatenate, specialise, anguish, television, bass...

Daily, I did not at all mean to come off as insulting Fleas style in order to prove how good Wooten is.

Since this argument is only between the individual bass players I will say this much:

Victor Wooten is irrefutably the more technically advanced of the two. And while technical ability and knowledge of theory is not nearly as important as the vibe a musician has in accompaniment, the whole purpose of these two things (technical ability and knowledge of theory) is to give yourself all the tools you can to sound better in accompaniment, and frankly im tired of people bashing theory and then asking what a tritone resolution is

This is going to be very opinionated, but I have found (with myself alot too) that when people get confused by the mechanics of theory, they often will defend their "natural playing" and "vibe" over learning more theory. KNOWLEDGE OF THEORY IS NEVER DETRIMENTAL. If you cant keep knowledge from dictating what you play (which I doubt happens for anyone) then you will never be able to develop your own voice on an instrument.

And I have a third criterion for a good musician, ability to accompany other musicians and instruments
heres a few people I have heard him play with

Steve Bailey (If you dont know who he is, turn off your computer and feel sorry for yourself)
Regi Wooten, The Flecktones, Tony Rice, Sam Bush, Jerry Douglas, Dave Matthews Band, Trey Anastasio, Jackson Brown, Bonnie Raitt, John Scofield, Earl Scruggs, John Paul Jones, Tina Turner, Chick Corea, Scott Henderson, Steve Smith, Carter Beauford, Vital Tech Tones

my last say,

because it is impossible to prove (or you just wont admit that we have :) ) that a musician can be better in all aspects than another, I will restrict my argument to who has the better technical ability and theoretical knowledge and knowledge of the sounds his bass can make, and Vic takes the cake.

And who do you think could voice a phrase directly from the top of his head both faster and with more precision onto the bass?

No way maaan, theory sucks big time..... what is a tritone resolution?

Kidding, totally.

Actually, what is a tritone resolution, I've never even heard of it? - I'm interested, do please post on that...

"This is going to be very opinionated, but I have found (with myself alot too) that when people get confused by the mechanics of theory, they often will defend their "natural playing" and "vibe" over learning more theory."
>>> I agree with you here... I know shag-all theory, well, I know bits and bobs, but only real basic... but I do genuinely want to know more. I wouldn't slate theory, although I may slate the hardcore jazzos who use it so blatantly!

Again, kidding, I love jazz....

I'm not interested enough to pay for lessons... well it's a case of balancing cost against immediate value as well... I already spend £100 odd a month on travel to play with my band and the lessons would be the straw on the camels back so to speak...

KNOWLEDGE OF THEORY IS NEVER DETRIMENTAL.
>>In theory I agree, but.. there's this guy down our jazz club, a real jazzo guitarist, my best friend plays blues guitar and jams with them from time to time... now this jazzo guy always tries to play a blues solo after my mate finishes the jam and screws it completely... every single time!!! It's not that he cant play the guitar, he can, he's amazing, but he cant stop using all these jazz chords and scales... He literally cannot simplify his playing to suit the blues... practice I guess, but still, he;s session muso, you'd think he'd be able to choose his notes better?

"And I have a third criterion for a good musician, ability to accompany other musicians and instruments"
>>>I completely agree, now this is a bloody good specification for a good musician. I'll remember that for future use in disussion.

Flea also plays around - although not even comparable to the huge list you just posted.

I'm not doubting that Wooten is indeed beter than Flea... as a die-hard peppers fan I do get sick of bassists slagging him (which in general they do), when he is an exceptionally talented and expressive player and should be appreciated as such.

anyway dude, good discussion, I've learnt summit....

Victor wooten-
amazing grace
norwegian wood
classical thump
me and my bass guitar


flea-
higher ground... nah Flea cant have a solo career

Originally posted by b0nes83
Victor wooten-
amazing grace
norwegian wood
classical thump
me and my bass guitar


flea-
higher ground... nah Flea cant have a solo career

wait!!!
Flea - Pea (he sings too!!!)

:D

"higher ground... nah Flea cant have a solo career"

Flea wrote 3/4 of a solo album before the peppers got frusciante back for californication.

he also wrote the vast majority of One Hot Minute.

Originally posted by arther daily
"higher ground... nah Flea cant have a solo career"

Flea wrote 3/4 of a solo album before the peppers got frusciante back for californication.

he also wrote the vast majority of One Hot Minute.
Whoop de freakin' do

"Whoop de freakin' do"

OK, so One Hot Minute aint so hot and 3/4 of solo album doesnt get on the shelves...

I quit, this is a perpetual thang...

My final comment:

IMO: Flea rules...
and nothing will every change that opinion. I've seen and heard many better players, but Flea still rules.
Technique, speed, theoretical knowledge, even ability, in my opinion all that (really important stuff) goes out the window when compared to just being cool.

It's like Darth Vader said "The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant in comparison to the power of cool.. hurrrhhh, haaahhhh..."

...and we all saw what happened to that guy who argued with Lord Vader!

I will make a conscious effort to listen to some more Wooten.