I am playing a lot more with a group that favors a more swinging style than traditional bluegrass. The basic feel of this music-at least to my ears-is very similar to big band swing from the 30s and 40s.

Exactly what makes music "swing" music? Is it the chord structure or something else? I feel a little like the supreme court justice who said he couldn't define pornography but he knew it when he saw it--I can't really define swing but I know it when I hear it.

...

Exactly what makes music "swing" ....



http://www.alisdair.com/pdf/articles/It%20Dont%20Mean%20A%20Things.pdf

A little over-scientific, but this brief article and the included references bring out some of the main points.

However, exactly where the notes are placed in time is a relatively simple question, which any nerd with a computer can study these days. But WHY listening to a well-played swinging rhythmic feel is so emotionally compelling is the deeper question, and probably ultimately unanswerable.

I would think its one of those things where less analysis and more listening and playing is the best approach.

Unfortunately, I think the Judge is right.

If you want to learn it, you gotta feel it. Go hear all of the live stuff you can, listen to recordings if you don't have the first. And even if you DO have the first.

A little over-scientific. . .

"Groove Quantization Templates"? I feel like I am back in graduate school.

If I can intrepret what the guy is saying (in plain old Tennessee english) swing is more an exercise in timing than anything else.

There is no question that this stuff grabs you.

Swing is a feel. The best analogy to this is that it is like a flavor or the sound of a language.


To really know what a banana tastes like, you have to eat a banana.
To really know what German sounds like and feels like, there is no better a lesson than going and spending time in Germany.
This isn't meant to be flippant, it's just the only way you're going to get it.

I assume since your comment was tied to bluegrass, you are talking about Texas swing, like Bob Wills type stuff.


It isn't really the chords. Most of the forms are going to be fairly common. And, I think you'll discover that most of the progressions are still the 1-4-1-5 or 1-4-2-5 that you are accustomed to in BG. You see a few more twists in the turnarounds but its the same animal.

And most of the time you'll still be thumping out the alternating fifths.

I am a huge fan of Texas swing. I can't really discribe it exactly, but I often think of playing as taking a walk. Sometimes you are walking a little intently with the shoulders forward of the feet. You are a man going somewhere. Sometimes you are mostly upright, and other times you have the shoulders thrown back and are just strolling along.

This vision helps me a great deal with the feel. The feet are the beat, but the body isn't always right on top. I tend to feel most bluegrass with a lean into it type feel. With swing you have to lay back and let the groove happen.

As for the article, nice try, Alisdair, but not one word explains Walter Page and Freddie Green playing 4/4 and throwing everybody right out of their chairs.

As for the article, nice try, Alisdair, but not one word explains Walter Page and Freddie Green playing 4/4 and throwing everybody right out of their chairs.
Amen. IMHO, if ya wanna hear some of the most infectious swing ever recorded, listen to Basie.

Swing is a feel.

Interesting that you and Luckycharms get the idea across clearly in a few words. I understand what you are saying. I guess the analytical side of me gets carried away at times and tries to look too deep.

I am willing to wager that the name comes from the fact that you can't help but dance when you hear it.

Just like big band, Texas swing drives a whole genre of dance.

Bob Wills and the Texas Playboys. You can't beat that name or their tunes!

Anyway, swing is the perfect name for swing feel - it, uh, swings. And one thing to keep ion mind is that a swung triplet aint really a 33.3333% of a beat scenario. Maybe that's what the article tries to explain, but I can't stand that sort of thing. Ray and Don have got it right.

Bob Wills and the Texas Playboys. You can't beat that name or their tunes!


I'm fortunate to play with the Playboys lead gutarist of many years, Mr. Benny Garcia. While a big part of the western swing movement, he is a great jazz guitarist and his feel is definitely swinging. Unfortunately, his mind is going and he can't remeber questions he asked you 30 seconds ago. However, on the last gig I did with him a few weeks ago, an elderly gentleman requested a tune none of us knew and Benny played the melody and told me the changes although by his admission he hadn't played that son g in 50 years.

Monte

Exactly what makes music "swing" music?
All good stuff. But there's no harm in taking a wack at a nuts-and-bolts answer.

I don't need to tell you that bluegrass bass is all about:
a) Beats one and three,
b) Roots & fives
c) Matching your part to the guitarists & vice-versa
d) Percussive sound

Obviously, there are exceptions, but if you hit those points you're definitely welcome back.

In string-band swing and swing music generally, it's a different approach:
a) Walking four-to-the-bar, the power is on beats two and four. Try practicing with your metronome on just 2 & 4. It helps tons.
b) You're walking four-to-the-bar, so all the great stuff you read about here dealing with connecting chords comes into play on another level. That, as you know, is a ten-second condensation of a thirty-year study.
c) You want to match the guitarist's rhythmic pulse (and, of course, play the right chords) but you're not trying to play his notes.
d) The move from mandolins and flat-tops to electrics and steels means longer notes are more appropriate.

I dunno, Steve, I suspect you're on top of this already but I hope it's a little help.

"Groove Quantization Templates"? I feel like I am back in graduate school.

I

My Microcomposer has these and it does allow you to add swing to anything you have already programmed in.


I haven't read the article - but using templates like this is a good way to hear what effect : adding "swing" has on different types of music...?

None of this quantizing explains why a rhythm section playing nothing but quarter notes still swings. Or why music that isn't jazz still swings. Check out Hal Galpers' thoughts on teh subject.

Swing is as much about note choice and line construction to propel the harmonic progression as it is about the duple/triple rhythmic approach.

None of this quantizing explains why a rhythm section playing nothing but quarter notes still swings. Or why music that isn't jazz still swings. Check out Hal Galpers' thoughts on teh subject.

Swing is as much about note choice and line construction to propel the harmonic progression as it is about the duple/triple rhythmic approach.

I'm not sure whether we're talking about Jazz here or not...;)

But anyway - aren't there at least two meanings of the term "swing" in Jazz?

So I will often hear people say - that band is really swinging, when they just mean that it all fits together well and they are on top of their game and it has a nice feel. But that may not be the same as : implying a 12/8 feel on tunes written as 4/4 ?

Swing is as much about note choice and line construction to propel the harmonic progression as it is about the duple/triple rhythmic approach.

Care to elaborate?

A drummer can swing like crazy on his own, without having any reference to form or harmony.

In my experience, the swing "feeling" (not talking about the genre of music that was popular during the 1930s) is almost only a rhythmic thing. To me the feel between Basies rhythm section and Tony Williams freebop trio with Sam Rivers and Gary Peacock isn't THAT diffrent... even though they have completly different reference to harmony and composition(assuming they're even playing one)!

What I'm trying to say is nice resoultions and the "right notes" isn't going to make you sound swinging if the your rhythm isn't there, but on the other hand, the opposite can be true.

Maybe I misunderstood what you said though...

/lovebown

Care to elaborate?

A drummer can swing like crazy on his own, without having any reference to form or harmony.

In my experience, the swing "feeling" (not talking about the genre of music that was popular during the 1930s) is almost only a rhythmic thing. To me the feel between Basies rhythm section and Tony Williams freebop trio with Sam Rivers and Gary Peacock isn't THAT diffrent... even though they have completly different reference to harmony and composition(assuming they're even playing one)!

What I'm trying to say is nice resoultions and the "right notes" isn't going to make you sound swinging if the your rhythm isn't there, but on the other hand, the opposite can be true.

Maybe I misunderstood what you said though...

/lovebown


Sure it's hard for a drummer, cause they only have the rhythmic element to work with. So much of this "intellectualising" about the swing feel is predicated on the eighth note, but that (as others have pointed out) you take a bassist and drummer who are playing nothing but quarter notes and they can still swing ferociously.

What I'm trying to say is that nice resolutions and the right notes ARE going to make you sound swinging even if all you are doing is playing quarter notes right in the center of the beat.

http://www.halgalper.com/

Unfortunately, the article on time and swing seems to be down (there's a Forward Motion Advisory, check that out), but read through the rest of the articles, there's a wealth of really greta information there.

What I'm trying to say is that nice resolutions and the right notes ARE going to make you sound swinging even if all you are doing is playing quarter notes right in the center of the beat.
I like to read it this way: If all you are doing is playing quarter notes right in the center of the beat, nice resolutions and the right notes are going to sound swinging.

http://www.halgalper.com/

Unfortunately, the article on time and swing seems to be down (there's a Forward Motion Advisory, check that out), but read through the rest of the articles, there's a wealth of really greta information there.

Sure....nice website... I'll counter with

http://www.upbeat.com/lieb

He has some very very nice articles... I believe there is one on jazz rhythm that is interesting..

/lovebown

. . .aren't there at least two meanings of the term "swing" in Jazz

This seems to be how the discussion has developed. Initially, I was asking about the actual genre of swing (western in this case which, to me, feels similar to big band). Things seem to have moved from swing music to music that swings.

From the bluegrass/western swing perspective, Sam's comments on laying down 4 really fit. That is basically what I do on our "swinging" tunes and it sets it apart from the more traditional root-five stuff. My biggest problem at this point is smoothly connecting the chords without being repetitious.

But on the other hand, some of the older traditional tunes may not be swing style but they sure do swing.

Interesting discussion.

For crying out loud!

You can't talk about or measure what swing is or isn't -- no more than you can talk about or write about the taste of a banana and have anybody get it. Miles Davis, whose words you generally have to take with a grain of salt, put it perfectly when he said something to the effect of, "Talking about music is like dancing about painting."

If you want to learn it -- then go learn it. Listen to the records, listen to the bands, take some lessons, etc, etc.

Have a little too much coffee today Ray?

Also from Hal Galpers site:

I had the good fortune to spend a week with Dizzy when he was a guest artist with the Phil Woods Quintet in the 80’s. I was never the same after that week. All Dizzy talked about for that week was rhythm, rhythm, and more rhythm. When the inventor of the music puts so much emphasis on one particular aspect of jazz, I got the point, that jazz is at root a rhythmic invention. If you don’t understand the rhythm you don’t understand the music.

Have a little too much coffee today Ray?
Naw -- I came off a bit more bothered than I really was. It just seems that the conversation was really becoming bad advice for a good question.

Also from Hal Galpers site:

I had the good fortune to spend a week with Dizzy when he was a guest artist with the Phil Woods Quintet in the 80’s. I was never the same after that week. All Dizzy talked about for that week was rhythm, rhythm, and more rhythm. When the inventor of the music puts so much emphasis on one particular aspect of jazz, I got the point, that jazz is at root a rhythmic invention. If you don’t understand the rhythm you don’t understand the music.

Not in the same league maybe, but I have had the good fortune to spend time with some great British Jazz pros at Univ. of Glamorgan and I noticed that the horn players were very concerned with the bass player providing a good rhythmic platform for them - so the sax players who I've worked with as tutors are emphasing rhythm and saying things like they want forward momentum from the bass and emphasis on 2 and 4 etc. Whereas, on other classes I've worked with guitarists/pianists and they are talking more about other things.

My feeling was that maybe horn players like Dizzy are maybe more concerned about others taking care of the rhythmic aspects, so they have more freedom in their solos?

Or maybe there is some other reason - like having played with a lot of rhythm sections in the past, that didn't swing? ;)

Quote ( originally posted by Ray ):
""Talking about music is like dancing about painting."
True, but ain´t talking about music a big part of TB? What else can we do, sitting behind our computers? Well, at least us who ain´t living in NY ;-)

ARBEIT MACHT TOOTH PASTE:
I do not think Diz played a lot with rhythm sections that didn´t schwing...he fired many, though.

R2

Quote ( originally posted by Ray ):
""Talking about music is like dancing about painting."
True, but ain´t talking about music a big part of TB? What else can we do, sitting behind our computers?



That's right - if you apply this strictly, then you might as well close down TB and every other music-related website, like Jazz Corner's Speakeasy, for example!!

Besides, shouldn't Miles have played that quote on his horn, rather than saying it with words!!?? ;)

What a hypocrite he was!! :D


ARBEIT MACHT TOOTH PASTE:

Eh?

I do not think Diz played a lot with rhythm sections that didn´t schwing...he fired many, though.


That's exactly what I meant - he was giving advice on how not to be fired by somebody like him!! ;)

i.e. provide a solid and propulsive rhythmic platform for his solos!!

SPRUCE LINSEED:
True, true and true.
About "arbeit macht tooth paste":
I hope you figure that out yourself. :D
R2

Well, back to the subject before bull**** takes over.
Ray cried out that one can´t measure nor define swing by writing about it, which I accept. There are certain elements in swing, which can´t be discussed in measureable terms. One either is able to hear it ( and then adapt to playing ) or not.

The important thing is that it´s not only the rhythm section which defines the swing and the groove. A groovy 4/4 provided by a good rhythm section does not make the whole music swing by itself.
It´s how all the others play against that groove rhytmically, and how they place their frasing against that rhythm. I guess that´s why Diz makes the rhythmic aspect so important.
Without it there ain´t no swing.
That´s why Basie´s bands were so good, too. They ALL swung, together with the killer rhythm section.

R2

Well, back to the subject before bull**** takes over.
Ray cried out that one can´t measure nor define swing by writing about it, which I accept. There are certain elements in swing, which can´t be discussed in measureable terms. One either is able to hear it ( and then adapt to playing ) or not.

R2

Ain't swing that little skip thingy you do with your fingers?

The important thing is that it´s not only the rhythm section which defines the swing and the groove. A groovy 4/4 provided by a good rhythm section does not make the whole music swing by itself.
It´s how all the others play against that groove rhytmically, and how they place their frasing against that rhythm. I guess that´s why Diz makes the rhythmic aspect so important.
Without it there ain´t no swing.
That´s why Basie´s bands were so good, too. They ALL swung, together with the killer rhythm section.

R2

Very true. A soloist with crappy time will sound crappy when playing with a rhythm section who swings together. Swinging is everbodies affair, not just the bass player or drummer...but the whole band!

I just listened to some Cannonball and man...I bet that guy could swing on his own, with no accompanying him, cause the way his great time and ideas bites into the rhythm is just amazing, to me anyway.

/lovebown

From the bluegrass/western swing perspective, Sam's comments on laying down 4 really fit. That is basically what I do on our "swinging" tunes and it sets it apart from the more traditional root-five stuff.

Most of the Western swing stuff I have in my collection, three or four Bob Wills CDs and a couple of Riders In the Sky recordings has bass hanging on root-5 on the 1-3 with the walk through on the fours almost as a feature. IMO, you don't have to walk on fours to give the song a swing feel.

As for creative ways to walk on the quarters in a 3-chord progression, listen to blues bands. I played in a blues band for 10 years and probably have 100 blues recordings. You'd be amazed at how many ways you can turn around a 1-4-5.

I liked this quote from the Hal Galper "Stagefright and Relaxation" article:

Swinging has never been exactly defined, but an acceptable definition might be that one's playing has an "emotional" quality to it.

murray grodner pulling the bow from my hand and whacking me on the top of my head saying, "straight eighths, not swing!"

you take a bassist and drummer who are playing nothing but quarter notes and they can still swing ferociously.


There's some kinda magic that happens when two people "Lock" the time in and create a "Pocket" As someone mentioned, the best way to hear and feel this is to check out Basie's section with Freddie Green playing quarter notes with the bass player. Guitarist Jim Hall does this all the time ( I think i'm involved in three threads right now where I find myself bringing Jims playing up)
The very same thing happens in other genre of music...Chasarms and Steve are talking about Western type swing. I think as long as you have two and four happening, you can lock it in the pocket and make it swing!
Another fascinating thing for me is implied swing...where there's nobody playing 2 & 4 or quarter notes, but the essence is there (Bill Evans ,Scott LaFaro and Paul Motian.
I've heard Ravi Shankar and the boys get into some intense grooves!

murray grodner pulling the bow from my hand and whacking me on the top of my head saying, "straight eighths, not swing!"

That happened to me as well. I didn't get hit with a bow, but I couldn't stop swinging my eighths on a classical piece and my teacher nearly stopped the lesson.

Hard to define swing, but once you get a feel for it it can also be hard to stop.

I think the best way to understand swing is to just shut up and listen. It's a feeling that has nothing to do with how you play 8th notes or any other thing you can explain.

STEVE CLINGWRAP I'd say don't worry about being repetative in your walking lines it's more important to smoothly connect the chords and quarter notes. The smoother you connect your notes, the more you'll get the feel of swing. Listen to Basie's band, Mingus, hell listen to the meters the groove (which is the same as swing to me) on one very simple repetative idea and you never want to stop shaking your a** the whole time.

Just my $.02

Mike

Did I kill this thread? I didn't mean too, it's not like I'm looking for a flame war or anything. I was just voicing an opinion.
Mike

Thread killing bastard.

I fart in your general direction.

Sundry thoughts:
It's a rhythmic thing, it's not about the notes, it's about the spaces between 'em.
It has a lilt, a swagger. It's the difference between a march and a saunter. Basie had it, Sousa didn't.
Some have good meter and rhythmic feel, and swing instinctively. Some are stiffs, and merely stumble from bar to bar.
Some swing solo, best done in groups of two or more.
Most of our book swings. I have to concentrate to play a cha cha.
Foghorn digs Python.

Feel better, Mook?

Sundry thoughts:
It's a rhythmic thing, it's not about the notes, it's about the spaces between 'em.
It has a lilt, a swagger. It's the difference between a march and a saunter. Basie had it, Sousa didn't.
Some have good meter and rhythmic feel, and swing instinctively. Some are stiffs, and merely stumble from bar to bar.
Some swing solo, best done in groups of two or more.
Most of our book swings. I have to concentrate to play a cha cha.
Foghorn digs Python.

Feel better, Mook?

There once was a mechanic named Schroeder....

It's all good!

This is a great thread, swing is really a hard thing to pin down with words and theories. It's really about feel.

Around the 16th century, many pieces were written for the harpsichord. Up until 50 years ago, most scholars believed the written music should be played as straight eighths. Now the general consensus is that they were swinging the beat in Italy and southern France.

16th or 17th century-must do more research, but the movement started in Northern Italy and quickly moved to Southern France. The written eighth notes of written harpsichord music were read anywhere from an eighth note triplet feel much like contemporary 'swing' of the 20th century to a double-dotted eighth note and a 32nd note, but not 'straight eighths.' What does that have to do with 'jazz swing?' Everything. Just shows that there is nothing new under the stars.