My idea is to have a band with a "lead bass guitarist" and a rhythm section consisting of a rhythm guitarist and a drummer (instead of a bassist and a drummer). Any ideas on how to make this work? Who should I try to look for for inspiration (besides Jaco :)?

Thanks in advance.

Primus is a good example, it may not be your cup of tea sound wise but it shows that there aren't any limits.

This isnt a new concept. Its really common.

Use the "Search" function for a thread I started titled, "Dueling Bassists." The concept, 2 bassists, is a little different as opposed to yours where the bass is the featured instrument, but there were many, manym excellent replies that you may find helpful.

Originally posted by paul_mccartney
My idea is to have a band with a "lead bass guitarist" and a rhythm section consisting of a rhythm guitarist and a drummer (instead of a bassist and a drummer). Any ideas on how to make this work? Who should I try to look for for inspiration (besides Jaco :)?

Thanks in advance.

Sounds like a nice idea, and there's no reason why it wouldn't work. If you're not planning on playing any 'bass' bass at all, then check out Paul Motian's bass-less trio with Bill Frisell and Joe Lovano - drums, sax and guitar. The sense of space that comes from having no bass line is wonderful.

The best advice with any new project like this is, I think, to throw away the rule book. Get together with the other guys, start with some simple structures and jam, playing what feels 'right' in that setting. Don't think to hard about it, just see what comes out. hopefully your inbuilt sense of musiciality will come up with something cool.

do check out Pat Metheny's 'Bright Sized Life' album, with Jaco and Bob Moses - lots of melody bass on there in a guitar trio, and the latest Jonas Hellborg CD, where he does a lot of chordal and melody stuff. it's called 'Good People In Times Of Evil' and is wonderful.

If you find that the new trio isn't working out, try switching to hand percussion instead of drums...

most of all HAVE FUN - don't get too serious about the whole thing. for me, music works best when I play it for it's own sake, and then offer it to other people if they happen to like it, rather than get hung up on someone else's definition of cool. If they don't like it, that doesn't invalidate it, it just makes the audience potential more selective! :o)

cheers

Steve
www.steve-lawson.co.uk
www.solobassnetwork.org.uk

You could listen to the Who, for some inspiration.

Hey!

On the TB Home Page there is an article about a band back east "Burn Guitars",they use three basses and a drummer.You may want to check it out,also has a link to their website.For $6.00 you can get a copy of their demo cd(with 4 songs on it).I think I may check it out!

In the 80s - Miles Davis had a "lead" bass player - Joseph "Foley" McCreary. John Patitucci is another bass player who plays lead a lot - especially on his solo albums - I like "Mistura Fina", which has some tracks where he just plays with an acoustic guitarist and takes the solos over the acoustic "rhythm" guitar part and percussion.

yeah, I noticed that John Patitucci listed on the credits on one of recent solo albums "6 string piccolo bass".........a humourous reference to guitar, perhaps?

I think the piccolo bass on 'One More Angel' is a one off built by Yamaha - it's strung one octave up from a normal 6 string, if I remember rightly (there was a transcription of the solo in Bass Player, with a description of the instrument) - if you listen to the piece, it's definitely a bass-derived sound, played using Patitucci's usual techniques...

cheers

Steve
www.steve-lawson.co.uk

Originally posted by The Mock Turtle Regulator "6 string piccolo bass".........a humourous reference to guitar, perhaps?

Mock- doggone close. Look at this "thing." It may be a bass, technically, but I'd say we're definitely in hot dog guitar country www.twics.com/~shark/piccolo.html

I remember someone in Bass Player questioning the validity of piccolo basses "why not just use a guitar?" and I remember a spoof April BP New Gear report of a "6 string piccolo bass" which went on to describe a strat:D

In the "bass heroes" book in the interview with Stanley Clarke he talks about his piccolo basses, one made by Alembic with a Bigsby trem on it, and he mentions someone asking of one of his tracks (Quiet Afternoon) "who's the guy playing the strat?" when it was Clarke with the piccolo bass (the medium 32in bass scale apparently not causing much tonal difference to a guitar)- hmmmm.....

I suppose piccolo basses allow bass players access to the guitar register without having to adapt to guitar string spacing, and having to change fingerstyle technique - but surely bass should be in the bass register? and surely there's enough upper range on a 24 fret Yamaha TRB six string anyway?
are piccolo basses just a means for established bassplayers to play guitar without the stigma of having "switched sides"?

now there's some controversy for ya....
I'll have to check out the John Pattitucci track to hear it for myself, though...
ps. Rickbass1, I agree, that piccolo bass sounds exactly like a guitar....

Originally posted by The Mock Turtle Regulator
are piccolo basses just a means for established bassplayers to play guitar without the stigma of having "switched sides"?

now there's some controversy for ya....
I'll have to check out the John Pattitucci track to hear it for myself, though...
ps. Rickbass1, I agree, that piccolo bass sounds exactly like a guitar....

It seems counter productive to think in terms of 'sides' - this is music, not a sport after all. David Friesen plays Shakuhatchi flute as well as bass, but I don't think he's sold out... :o) Whatever the instrument is that gets your sound out, it's cool. Piccolo bass and guitar are in a similar (if not identical) range, but are conceptually a long way apart - I'm a pretty rubbish guitarist, but can handle a piccolo bass with no problem. Whether or not a 24 fret 6 string has enough high register is for the person playing it to decide, surely... The great thing about bass being such a young instrument is that there are no rules. Calling it a bass is just a handy way of recognising the origins of the instrument. Music has nothing to do with the prescribed function of an instrument, and all to do with sounds that reflect the intentions and inner workings of the performer. If you get that by plucking elastic bands wrapped round your shoes, great. If you get that from a Yamaha 6 or Alembic 4 string strung with tiny strings, also great! People often talk about the open mindedness of bassists - let's prove them right!

(and by the way, I disagree that piccolo bass sounds like guitar - there are differences, and the differences between Stan's piccolo and a strat are far bigger than between a Strat and a Tele, but that's considered a valid distinction to make...)

cheers

Steve
www.steve-lawson.co.uk

Originally posted by The Mock Turtle Regulator ... Rickbass1, I agree, that piccolo bass sounds exactly like a guitar....


Well, er uh, I didn't say or intend that. I was referring to the flames on the Spector of whatever instrument that was I posted as a link and the verbage the guy put up about sounding like a guitar. It seems like any catalog you pick up, the guitar section has all the body styles and finishes that make you think of being at the zoo on acid. And when you get to the bass section, things get a lot less hot dog.

I agree with Steve about the player's intended use of the instrument, or the musician's intended function within whatever musical context they're playing. For instance, Fender VI played by Jack Bruce on Cream's "Crosssroads," = Bass. Fender VI played by Joe Perry on Aerosmith's "Back in the Saddle," = Guitar.

I'm all for open-mindedness regarding music, and I certainly don't consider it "selling" out for a bass player to play guitar as well on their solo albums eg. Marcus Miller, Geddy Lee etc.

but, the distinction between bass and guitar gets very blurred with these hybrid instruments- what is a piccolo bass precisely? a long scale instrument in the range of a guitar tuned in fourths with wide string spacing? Allan Holdsworth had baritone guitars made with a 38in scale (I forget which tuning he used on them but I'm pretty sure it was lower than a guitar) and Ty Tabor of King's X has just had signature long scale Yamaha guitars made for tuning down to B, and Stanley Jordan uses tuning in fourths on his guitars.
so is it just the wide string spacing that's different? classical guitars can have pretty wide necks.....

and as for fingerstyle technique, some bass players use a hybrid guitar type thumb+fingers approach eg. Sting and Paul Westwood.

it seems to me that the term "piccolo bass" has just arisen out of narrow mindedness - the kind of people (the purists) who consider bass players who play with a pick to be frustrated guitarists would look down their noses at a bass player playing guitar too.
I'd call it a "long scale guitar", especially when it's got six strings on it!
the original Fender Precision was derived from the telecaster guitar anway.


as for the Fender Bass VI, guitarist Robert Smith of The Cure's signature sound is pretty much the Fender BassVI through chorus- he plays it like a guitar, but then so did Peter Hook with New Order- he was termed the bass player, he used a Shergold 6 string bass but also regular 4string basses too.
but both these players use instruments in the bass register- it looks to me that there's considerable overlap between someone playing a piccolo "bass" in the guitar register and guitar-type stuff in the bass register.

anway, this is just a pointless rant really, and I apologise for wasting everyone's time:D

Originally posted by The Mock Turtle Regulator

I'd call it a "long scale guitar", especially when it's got six strings on it!


Why worry about what it's called? :o)

people coming from the guitar end will call it a baritone guitar, people coming from the bass side will call it a tenor bass, people who couldn't care less will just play it... :o)

You can call my fretless 6 a long scale mandolin if you like, it's still the coolest sounding instrument I've ever picked up! :o)

Steve

Originally posted by Steve Lawson
You can call my fretless 6 a long scale mandolin if you like, it's still the coolest sounding instrument I've ever picked up!

how about "long scale fretless baritone electric mandolin tuned in fourths"?

I see Vigier do a fretless guitar......now if you were to put heavy gauge strings on it and tune down to.......okay, okay, I'll shut up now.

BTW Steve, do you use pitchshifting in your stuff?
I read that Doug Wimbish uses his Digitech whammy pedal to shift up his bass two octaves for odd effects.

I do sometimes use pitchshift effects - I've got a sort of 8 string patch which doubles the note an octave higher, a patch that lets me kick in a delay that plays back the notes an octave higher in a mad soundtrack kinda-way, I use an E-Bow with the harmonic setting which gives me some really high notes, and I use the octave up/double speed button my my Line 6 DL4 all the time. But I also use natural and artificial harmonics to get way up high as well, especially with distortion on. Have a listen to the solo on 'Virtue Of The Small' (Real Audio on my site, or track three on the album if you've got it) to hear what I mean...

cheers

Steve
www.steve-lawson.co.uk

I'm inspired by Cliff Burton
a true bass master
others are my teacher, the guy from yes, the guy from deep purple and the guy from black sabbath

Stanley Clarke was playing bad boy picolo bass in the 70's - i got School Days for 50p in a charity shop the other day! Get a hold of it! I saw a guy playing a 7 String bass in NY - anyone ever seen these played before? Steve - you interested???
Plus, anyone know anywhere on the net with any good info on playing fretless - I've just picked up a second hand one and I'm keen to learn to play in a double bass style!

Cheers!

hi Ian,

I've tried a 7 string a few times - i played Roy Vogt's last time he was in London, and tried Bill Dicken's out at NAMM 2000 - it's an interesting idea but not one that opens up too many new possibilities to me. At some point I may reach the stage where I feel i've exhausted the possibilities of the 6 for my music and feel that the extra string would add anything other than novelty, but at the moment, I really don't need more strings! :o)

Fretless info - ask away! there are plenty of places within talkbass.com where you can ask about fretless playing, including here...

cheers

Steve
www.steve-lawson.co.uk

Hi Steve, thanks for your reply and your reply to the email I sent yesterday - hopefully I'll be able to make it to Greenbelt this year....!

Anyway, I've got a lined fretless bass that I picked up v.cheap, and I'm, keen to get much better at it, but am finding the technique pretty tough. For example when sliding b/w notes, esp up the fretboard I have troube with my fingers rolling over the way I'm sliding - does that make sense? Thats technique, the next question is more theory based. I'm in a live drum n bass band/breakbeat band so they're quite keen for me to use my fretless so get a more double bass sound which is more drum n bass and I'm quite keen to oblige them! But, listening to a lot of drum n bass tracks, the bass riffs seem, musically to get a sound that I can't really find. Perhaps its the way the riffs are written over progressive chord sequences whilts themeselves remaining on the root note of the key, i don't know - do you???
I take it that you're a Christian from what I've seen and read - how do you find it in the secular music industry? Just cos this band I'm in is getting a fair bit of intrest and I'm keen to push it as far as it will go really.....

Cool, thanks in advance, hope you understand what I'm waffling on about!
Check our website: www.dur.ac.uk/s.w.mercer/keiretsu

Ian

Originally posted by dodgy_ian
Hi Steve, thanks for your reply and your reply to the email I sent yesterday - hopefully I'll be able to make it to Greenbelt this year....!

It'll be great to see you at Greenbelt if you get there - I'll be playing with various artists over the weekend, as well as doing my solo thang...

Anyway, I've got a lined fretless bass that I picked up v.cheap, and I'm, keen to get much better at it, but am finding the technique pretty tough. For example when sliding b/w notes, esp up the fretboard I have troube with my fingers rolling over the way I'm sliding - does that make sense?

Yup, it makes sense - I think the answer is to do with getting the pressure right as you hold the string down whilst sliding. If you're pressing to hard, then the friction between your finger and the string makes it really difficult to slide evenly, but if you press to lightly, the note stops. Experiment with different degrees of pressure and see what works...


Thats technique, the next question is more theory based. I'm in a live drum n bass band/breakbeat band so they're quite keen for me to use my fretless so get a more double bass sound which is more drum n bass and I'm quite keen to oblige them! But, listening to a lot of drum n bass tracks, the bass riffs seem, musically to get a sound that I can't really find. Perhaps its the way the riffs are written over progressive chord sequences whilts themeselves remaining on the root note of the key, i don't know - do you???

the best thing to do is to listen - if you get hold of any of the Roni Size stuff, or Red Snapper, MJ Cole, Artful Dodger etc. you'll find that the bass lines are often repeated in the original key even if the chords shift, creating tension and release. One of my favourite artists for that is Lewis Taylor, who does some made things with regards to matching bass line and chords. The recognised rules of harmony go right out of the window, and a much more cut 'n' paste approach emerges, where the sound is more of a collage than a standard verse chorus song structure with clearly defined vertical harmonic logic. as the genesis of the ideas isn't academic, too deep a study of it from a theoretical standpoint is probably unneccesary and unhelpful. Listening is the key, working out what's going on by ear, playing it and trying to recreate the feel on your own tunes. Start with the tracks with a live bass from Roni Size's 'New Forms' CD - there are a few on there where the relationship between bass and chords is pretty easy to spot...


I take it that you're a Christian from what I've seen and read - how do you find it in the secular music industry? Just cos this band I'm in is getting a fair bit of intrest and I'm keen to push it as far as it will go really.....

Ian

Mmm, I don't really make any distinction between sacred and secular music or industry. It's a sad fallacy that the CCM/Gospel music scene operates with any higher aims/morals than the rest of the scene, so as far as my solo career goes, I don't really want much to do with any part of that industry. With sessions and working with other artists, I just do the job. Divisions in the sacred/secular sense just serve to establish a dualism within one's approach to music and life that I can't really reconcile with my faith. I make decisions regarding what projects to play on, what work to accept, whether or not i'll take a low paying gig as a favour etc. based on the individual merits of the gig rather than in terms of the belief system of the people involved, if that makes sense. The whole concept of a christian music industry only perpetuates the notion that music made by christians is somehow separate from everything else and I don't really see that. Music is a whole lot of things, and the message behind music can work on many many levels, so for there to be an established industry the seeks to only promote artists for as long as they are carrying one message, rather than for as long as they are making vibrant music... I'm not sure that that works for me... i hope that makes some sense - it's a huge topic, and perhaps one for another day... :o)

cheers

Steve
www.steve-lawson.co.uk

Steve - thanks for the reply - I'll try messing with the pressure on the strings and see if that helps.
As for the drum n bass stuff thats also helpful, I have been working out quite a few of the bass lines from the New Forms and the last two Red Snapper albums as well - what gets me is that they are often v.imple double bass lines yet for some reason they work so well and sound absolutely great!
In response to the Christian music scene I wasn't so much aiming at the distinction b/w Christian and secular music, as to how you personally have found it individually being a Christian in a v.secular industry, being as you are doing gigs/work in both areas. I'm interested becos I'm hoping to get a bit further with this band, which is non-Christian, and can see that it will be v.hard at times!

Cheers

Ian

Re: being a Christian in the music industry - I think that anyone who holds any kind of conviction or morality has to be clear about that and about the boundaries that they are going to draw around themselves, and also about how they will deal with the pressure that there may be to behave in a certain way.

For me, I haven't found myself in a position where I was expected to do anything that I wasn't comfortable with in order to get a gig/keep a gig, and I'm pretty clear about what I consider to be acceptable or not. I love the fact that many musicians have diverse belief systems that feed into their music - for example, Howard Jones who i toured with is a Nichiren Buddhist, and it has a very positive and clear influence over his life and music, and I found that rather inspiring.

If I got offered a tour with a band full of junkies I'd probably turn it down - not because I couldn't reconcile it with my faith, but more because people who are permanently stoned are horrible to be around and the tour would be a nightmare.

Peer pressure can be a very strong thing when you're young, and that does diminish somewhat as you get older, but it's still there and it's helpful to have supportive people around you. But I do think that it's very damaging to just surround yourself with people who think like you do - I know people who don't mix with anyone who disagrees with them on anything, and they end up very smug, which I think explains a lot of the trite crap that comes out claiming to be Christian music... :o)

there's a danger that comes with adherance to any spiritual/political or ideological group that it can lead to an 'us and them' view of people who don't share your faith/belief/views. That's so damaging. As a person of faith, I believe it's utterly vital to continually test that by listening to people who are intellegent, considered and hold entirely opposing views. the music world is a great place to find people like that, and I have many great friends who are musicians who's faith and politics are wildly different to my own but who's convictions and experiences i have learnt a great deal from. it's definitely one of the perks of being a musician that you get to meet a lot of really really cool people. this last weekend I was fortunate to have played at a fretless festival in the south of France, and to have spent a lot of time chatting with some great musicians who were also interesting and inspiring people - if you get a chance, check out www.nedevett.com - he's a fretless guitarist from the States, is a fine musician and a really lovely person! :o)

i think it's safe to say that i've met as many scarey ass-holes working in christian music as I have in 'normal' music, so i really wouldn't worry to much - just make sure that, like any intellegent person, you know your own boundaries.

shalom

Steve
www.steve-lawson.co.uk

Hey, Macca: here's a concept for you:

Bass guitar quartet: One piccolo, one Tenor, One regular (Is that what the ol' 4 string has come down to?) and a 6 or 7 string contra. Maybe a percussionist. Hm, might try that mesself...

Will C.:cool:

I got a fretless bass :)

Will C.

have you heard Dave Pomeroy's all bass orchestra? It's great stuff, with loads of bassists playing every imaginable kind of bass from piccolo to dog-house :o)

check it out at www.earwave.com - Dave's a fantastic player, and his solo material is stunning. Nice guy too... Dave wrote an article in Bass Player a while ago about how to arrange for Bass Orchestra, which is well worth checking out.

bands with loads of bassists are a great idea - and it's probably a gimmick that would help you get gigs too... :o)

cheers

Steve
www.steve-lawson.co.uk