I was browsing through the wealth of music and method at my community college library, and I found a book on violin technique written by some guy from Russia. Lots of hair splitting over fingerings and compositions, and how these two things work together to evolve one's concept of virtuoisity.

To the meat in the middle: some discussion was made of intonation as a means of personal expression and style rather than an effort to conform to a fixed standard. I thought that was interesting idea, as I have to admit that being absolutely in tune all the time can get a little bland.

Any thoughts?

Hmmm. The only thing I can relate to this in my tired state is relative (true) intonation vs. the Bach 'perfect klavier' intonation. Because as any music student knows, technically the notes in the western scales are not actually in tune. If you have good or perfect pitch you can hear that a perfectly tuned piano is actually out of tune, because if you were to tune it right by the time you got to the end of the octave it wouldnt match up. Make sense? I'm rambling now... I think I'll continue this discussion tomorrow. :)

Even when playing against a well-tempered and (rarely in-tune) clavier, a variable pitched instrumentalist (voice included) will bend the pitches that are out on the afore-mentioned beast else they sound out of tune. 3rds, 7ths, etc. I think this is one reason why sampled sounds of acoustic instruments sound so flat, and that fixed-pitch instruments in general sound less 'live' than their micro-tonal enabled bretheren.

I don't have that book with me right now, but I don't recall it discussing intonation with respect to tempered tuning issues either...though I can't say that the harmonic series can't be offered as some kind of root cause for such claims.

I read into it something like what can happen when a note is played slightly sharp, lending a little additional brilliance to it (or at least making it more noticable). I want to say some of the opera stuff I hear on NPR has this kind of flair. I didn't mean to imply that playing in tune isn't an important skill to master at all, just in case there's some confusion.

I was driving for a couple-hour stretch some months ago, listening to Edgar Meyer's Bach Suites. Edgar Meyer plays in tune and isn't afraid of fingerboard dots. He's awesome, no doubt. But after about 30 minutes of suites, I couldn't listen to it anymore because I kept wanting to doze off - no sour notes sharp or flat, no notes to make me intuitively hear that something should be noticed. I just couldn't describe it this way until I read that little violin technique book I found. Maybe that's what he was after - something audibly seamless - and I shouldn't be saying anything bad about it, but it also gets kinda bland after a while and I've got to throw Gary Karr back in for a recharge.

Good sound helps intonation.

You intonate differently from baroque to modern and there´s a difference in playing with piano and playing with other string players. But first I would (and I my self am) think mostly about tone quality and basic intonation.

Example
In baroque music all major thirds must be unbelievable low and minor thirds high. You can actually use the flagolettes to here how low the major third should be. But of couse this doesn´t work with piano.

that´s my 5 cents.

I think the concept that Johnny L is referring to is called expressive intonation. Using the ability of our strings to "lead" a little more into the leading notes. The tension and release idea has more impact because you are getting closer to the release... it has its place. I think of this more with the "romantic" school of playing, especially like Heifetz, Rabin, and some of the other early 20th century violinists. The virtuosi could get away with it- we just play "out of tune".

When you are playing with an ensemble or piano accompaniment you really have to "play in tune." Equal tempered scales are what most concert audiences expect. Most players have tendencies to play certain notes lower or higher depending on their function in the scale. ie, correcting thirds, etc... No big deal, but that is just trying to fix the problems inherent in the equal temperment.

IMHO,
Brian

I have to admit I'm not well versed right now in the technical aspects of being in tune or out of tune and so forth. Most of this stuff is about learning how to discuss what I hear and what my intuition tells me in a way that offers meaningful discussion.

My personal preference has been ensemble performance and "blending in" - no notes out of tune with the fixed-pitched instruments, not even a single beating or chorus effect. As far as how those fixed pitched instruments are tuned to accomplish certain goals, I'm not too hung up over that. But when I work on the solo repertoire now, or I play some simple improvised arco solo with a band, I feel compelled to stand out. My intuition drives me to play with greater risk, to push the envelope somehow.

I'll probably be working on improving my intonation and muscle memory always as I continue with the doublebass, and it's possible I'll never get to a point where I have a virtuoisic control over my intonation. But to find out that intonation can be harnessed like this, well, I think it's awesome.

There's something about an upward moving scale, played ever so slightly sharp at the thirds and other "moving notes" that gives it a little extra bite. I've heard this out of various professional musicians, over the years, as well. It refers to that "blandness " spoken about above, I think.

Among basses, the intonation problems were not where I expected them to be - bass sections, that is. Try to get 7 or 9 bass players all on the same B flat in half position, A string. You'd think it would be simplest of all. Not so. The hard passages fly well. That B flat rarely does.

I invented "nut position" for myself to cover that - move half position up to the nut and do the B flatwith the 2nd finger. Almost infallible in a section.

MWM

I was driving for a couple-hour stretch some months ago, listening to Edgar Meyer's Bach Suites. Edgar Meyer plays in tune and isn't afraid of fingerboard dots. He's awesome, no doubt. But after about 30 minutes of suites, I couldn't listen to it anymore because I kept wanting to doze off - no sour notes sharp or flat, no notes to make me intuitively hear that something should be noticed. I just couldn't describe it this way until I read that little violin technique book I found. Maybe that's what he was after - something audibly seamless - and I shouldn't be saying anything bad about it, but it also gets kinda bland after a while and I've got to throw Gary Karr back in for a recharge.

I may be abusing a confidence, but I heard Edgar say that he used ProTools extensively on that album. If you're not familiar with that program, it is used, among other things, to "fix" the pitch of any given note. Just about everybody here in Guitar Town uses it in their studio nowadays for recording and mastering and they're not afraid to use it.

I heard him play the 1st Suite in person. Whatever he did in ProTools was likely not very severe.

I think the concept that Johnny L is referring to is called expressive intonation. Using the ability of our strings to "lead" a little more into the leading notes. The tension and release idea has more impact because you are getting closer to the release... it has its place. I think of this more with the "romantic" school of playing, especially like Heifetz, Rabin, and some of the other early 20th century violinists. The virtuosi could get away with it- we just play "out of tune".

When you are playing with an ensemble or piano accompaniment you really have to "play in tune." Equal tempered scales are what most concert audiences expect. Most players have tendencies to play certain notes lower or higher depending on their function in the scale. ie, correcting thirds, etc... No big deal, but that is just trying to fix the problems inherent in the equal temperment.

IMHO,
Brian

I saw Tamsin Little playing the Ligeti Violin Concerto at the Proms last year at the Albert Hall and the soloist was tuned slightly differently to the accompanists - some of Mahler's music calls for a violin tuned slightly sharp as well.....:hmm:

Well, I'd certainly be using that "fix my pitch" feature extensively, but I'm still working on learning to play in tune and have a long way to go.

It's all interesting, except the discussion is of soloists and single bass things, it seems. Intonation really becomes problematic in big sections, and only sectional rehearsal seem to solve it. Even among a group of excellent bass players.

Does Edgar M ever play tutti, or is it always a solo or small group gig. I've heard him and watched videos, and have never seen anything quite this remarkable, myself.

No sweat, man, run with it if you want until this thread dies or gets shut down.

OK - I'll run with it - You list the "string Game" books in your bio. Do you have any copies? One of the best overall approaches to playing I've seen and should accompany Simandl, Nanny, or whatever other study books a fellow has. I gave my copies away long ago, would like to have another.

Matt M

OK - I'll run with it - You list the "string Game" books in your bio. Do you have any copies? One of the best overall approaches to playing I've seen and should accompany Simandl, Nanny, or whatever other study books a fellow has. I gave my copies away long ago, would like to have another.

Matt M
Yes, they are great books. No copies, but my community college library has them. It's one of the few benefits to being an adult beginner with the bass and bow, to be led directly to pedagogy sources and then left to run with the ball myself. Explore your public/higher learning book shelves - you might get lucky as well.

Thanks for the suggestion. I found these books after I had fairly well worked through the standards, Nanny, Sim -, etc., and had a pretty good stack of literature. I found them in the University library, too. We've got Univ. Tenn. Chattanooga here, and I bet they will also have them. This set is well worth whatever effort it takes to get it.

Playing the String Game gave me a whole new way of looking at strings, and I used it not only for some of my students, but myself as well.

Matt M

After the string game books, my teacher recommended The Inner Game of Tennis to me. A great book to work on the mind with as one works on the body and the mechanics of playing.

Why do you recomend The inner game of tennis since we have The inner game of music.? Is there something in the inner game of tennis that is better, fx. about the body?

How about the "Inner game of fly fishing!?" Good bow routines.
Matt M

Why do you recomend The inner game of tennis since we have The inner game of music.? Is there something in the inner game of tennis that is better, fx. about the body?

I don't have anything bad to say about The Inner Game of Music. But I got what I wanted out of the Inner Game of Tennis, and that was the book recommended to me.

I think tennis entered the picture (by one route anyway) when Barry Green started a curriculum for bass based on the Inner game of Tennis concepts. This was maybe around 1980? It was before the subsequent "Inner Game" books came out. I did do the program with Barry and it was very cool but it was so long ago I don't remember many of the specifics...just went and ordered a copy of the book so I can get back into it.

hi, just thought i'd throw in my 2 cents... Intonation is such an interesting subject to me because I do a lot of studio recording as well as chamber music in NY City... In the studio we have to use tempered tuning a lot (piano tuning) just so that the bass section and the orchestra have something to center on. There is nothing more difficult to get a 75 piece orchestra to be perfectly in tune, but that is what is required in that line of work. We all bring tuners in to the studios and we all tune each of our strings seperately with the tuner. I personally do not like this kind of tuning for concert performances because it does get a bit dry and boring, but when used as a background to a movie or commercial, it lets the orchestra as a whole make larger dynamic changes. An intune bass section can produce a larger sound than an out of tune section (the rule in orchestra is to have the same intonation as the section leader). In chamber music I believe that the bass has to be the root of the chord and should set the intonation of the group. The bass can change the feel of any piece when it is the bottom voice of any chord depending on degrees of intonation. I guess I should finish by saying that in general I feel that intonation should be determined by the music. after all we are musicians, not technicians.

Intonation is such an interesting subject to me.

Interesting? I'd bet on it. LOL Thanks for the post!

There's something about an upward moving scale, played ever so slightly sharp at the thirds and other "moving notes" that gives it a little extra bite. I've heard this out of various professional musicians, over the years, as well. It refers to that "blandness " spoken about above, I think.

Among basses, the intonation problems were not where I expected them to be - bass sections, that is. Try to get 7 or 9 bass players all on the same B flat in half position, A string. You'd think it would be simplest of all. Not so. The hard passages fly well. That B flat rarely does.

I invented "nut position" for myself to cover that - move half position up to the nut and do the B flatwith the 2nd finger. Almost infallible in a section.

MWM

Matt

You've discovered "back position". This is a technique which isn't talked about much now, but was in common use from the beginning of bass pedagody and at least until the 1920's based on fingering I've seen for some things. I use this technique to find 1/2 and first position so I don't have to look at the neck, which, by the way, looks realy lame when the whole bass section is turning their heads to see where their hand is. It looks amaturish IMO.

Jon