Last night's gig reminded me once again of a big hole in my bag of tricks, walking over minor keys (esp. blues changes).

Give me a major key blues or rhythm changes and I'm all over that...but in minor blues I always feel like I can't find enough good notes :rolleyes:

A big problem I perceive is the gap between the b3 and the 5. two whole steps with one serious avoid note (the maj3). I also have issues with working in a 6th...use the major6, the b6?

Even worse are tunes like "Moondance" which spend many bars on one minor chord. After 2 bars I've run out of things to do besides noodle through the chord tones.

I know an obvious solution is to go spend a few months transcribing every note P.C. played on every chorus of every tune on "Kind of Blue" but in the meantime I'm looking for some temporary band-aids :hmm:

There's always the tried and true 1 2 b3 5 and 1 b7 6 5 which can be used on dominant or minor. I also don't see any thing wrong with the sound of 1 2 b3 3 when the next chord is a fourth away i.e. Cmin7 to Fmin7.

I'm sure you know what I'm gonna say, right? Getting minor arpeggios under your fingers and in your ears will help. Building a chord line over the changes of specific tunes, learning the melody and practicing some of the approaches to improv I've outlined elsewhere on the site will help. It's still just about resolutions and tension, what you are hearing melodically, where you been and where you want to go.

That maj3rd pitch will work, but not if you're hearing it as a maj 3rd.
Sorry, no quick and easy.

Most minor key blues tunes I have to play on gigs are in a "funky" style (like B.B.'s "Thrill Is Gone" or "Coming Home Baby") and I can handle those OK, it's trying to walk instead of playing funk ostinatos that I struggle with.

So let me ask a more specific question before I go off to transcribe P.C. :D

Like I said, I see the space between the b3 and the 5 as a no-man's land. If I have to spend two or more bars on a min7 chord, my ear hears both the maj3 and 4 as avoid notes, the b5 is OK as a passing tone; I feel I have to "leap" a major third from b3 to 5 rather than play a more chromatic line between the two chord tones.

So that's something I hope to figure out by doing some more transcription but was curious how other people deal with this particular thing.

If you need me, I'll be in the woodshed :cool:

I might get flamed here, but I like using the Aebersold "Major and Minor" CD for practicing this kind of thing - turn off the bass and shed along with it for hours!! :)

The 4th is not a avoid note at all. I really don't like that term anyhow -- the 4th is just a very unsettled note in some chords is all.

Moondance has no avoid tones, as it is an avoid tune. :)

As far as your chromatic walking ideas, they all still work if you look at it like this:

1) To walk up from the II to the V in 4 beats, play 1, 2, 3, major 3, and then 4:

D-7 G7 (C): D E F F# G
D-7(b5) G7alt (C-): D Eb F F# G

2) To walk down from a II to the V, walk down the scale of the parent key:

D-7 G7 (C): D C B A G
D-7(b5) G7alt (C-): D C Bb Ab G

3) To walk up from V to I, play 1, 2, b3, 3, the next root:

G7 C: G A Bb B C
G7alt C-: G Ab Bb B C

4) To walk down from V to I, again walk down the scale of the parent key:

G7 C: G F E D C
G7alt C-: G F Eb D C

Helps?

Another thing I'd like to add is check out my fingering threads, which are up in the newbie section. The fingerings for the relative major key will set up up nicely for the minor key.

Helps?

Um, no :hmm: Show me a walk over 2 or more bars of Gm7 for instance.

When I have to walk over a minor chord for one bar then to ANOTHER chord, I'm fine. But on a minor blues or a modal tune I may have 4 bars or more on the SAME chord.

Does that make any more sense?

I don't have much trouble if the chord is major but when it's minor no matter what I play it sounds pretty lame :crying:

I know what you mean about "Moondance" being an "avoid tune" but when you put on the penguin suit ya gotta expect a few of those :p If I have to play it, I'd rather it sounded good.

I know an obvious solution is to go spend a few months transcribing every note P.C. played on . . . "Kind of Blue" . . .
You know there are no bandaids.

Listen a lot to minor jazz tunes. In addition to So What/Impressions you should have no trouble finding versions of, for instance:

Minor Swing
Four on Six
Stolen Moments
Solar
Summertime

Just get that sound in your ear, as Ed says, and under your fingers, as Ray says. Repeat daily for best results.

Um, no :hmm: Show me a walk over 2 or more bars of Gm7 for instance.


You have to provide more information than that because it depends where the two bars of Gm7 lead to.

You can play G dorian for the two bars ascending or descending or you can break it up Descending G F E D(notice no third involved) ascending G A Bb B(major or minor doesn't matter if I'm going to C) or vice versa and everything in between. This really isn't any different than walking in major in the end it all depends on how you want you line to sound. You can go and transcribe PC and that's a good excercise, but you'll only find out that all different types of things work which is something you can explore yourself by writing the lines out and playing them.

You know there are no bandaids.

Listen a lot to minor jazz tunes. In addition to So What/Impressions you should have no trouble finding versions of, for instance:

Minor Swing
Four on Six
Stolen Moments
Solar
Summertime
Blue Train

Just get that sound in your ear, as Ed says, and under your fingers, as Ray says. Repeat daily for best results.


is Blue Train a minor blues?

I always thought of it an Eb blues with an altered sound, but not strictly as a minor blues. I was taught that the Real Book changes were absolutely wrong..

I could be wrong, but I hear it that way too.

No, you're right and I'm wrong.

The first option to learn when walking over any chord which lasts for more than two bars is: Alternate roots and fifths on downbeats. In other words, root for the downbeat of bar 1, 5th for downbeat of bar 2, root for bar 3, etc. This will help you and the band keep your place in the form, especially on a tune like So What.

In general, you want chord tones on beats 1&3, passing tones on beats 2&4. So for example, on G- you could play,

G,F#,F,E | D,C,Bb,A |G,Bb,C,C#, | D,F,G,Db | C...
(if its a blues)

It's a good idea to reiterate the root in bar 4, before moving on to the next chord. Here's a slightly different version.

G,F,E,Eb | D,Bb,A,Ab | G,A,Bb,C | D,Ab,G,B | C...

Brianrost,

Your question (the second part) is a major blockade and mystery for most bassists I see at Berklee.

1. Playing a minor blues presents no larger challenge than playing any other set of changes. It sounds like you simply have not learned to play your minor chords yet. By your description of the "gaps", I also can tell you that you are approaching the building of your lines incorrectly. I apologize for not offering a complete answer and suggested course of action here. Come see me at school and I will get you headed in the right direction. Quit looking for "temporary band-aids".

2. Now, walking over one chord (d minor) for many measures OR, a two / three chord repeated pattern, is a real mystery and PAIN for most students. If you were to "spend a few months transcribing every note P.C. played on every chorus of every tune on 'Kind of Blue'" you would certainly be a much better player. I recommend you do this if you like jazz. A few months will go by quickly whether you transcribe or NOT transcribe. And the question is, where do you want to be next summer as a player of walking lines? Brianrost, were you aware of the possibility that you could: "spend a few months transcribing every note P.C. played on every chorus of every tune on 'Kind of Blue'" last summer???

3. All of this transcribing done, you still might not recognize the driving concept behind walking on one chord. I will attempt to explain how really good players do this. I also must apologize here because this post is going to get looooonngg. And, many folks prefer a quick more traditional (chord scale) type fix.

Answer: Make melodies! Quarter note melodies. (Hmm... just happens to be the title of a book written by a good-looking, bald headed guy from New Hampshire :)

***** ALL examples are over d minor. IT IS VITAL TO HAVE A SIMPLE D MINOR DRONE TYPE PLAY-ALONG TO HEAR THESE MELODIES AGAINST WHEN PRACTICING. Also repeat each melody over 4 times before moving on so as to hear the development of phrasing. A good walking line is ALL ABOUT PHRASING!

Start to think of one measure as a melodic shape. Four quarter note shapes. Some of them stable: (ddad) (dada) (dfdd) (dfad) (dfaf). Notice how these have a lot of "d's". You must practice all one-measure shapes until they are completely second nature. Just the way you would learn a word in a verbal language so you can use it at your discretion. The mistake made by most players here is that they do not learn their words (one measure phrases) well enough so as to not get in the way of their ear, and the possibility of creative playing. Simply, you must understand and BELIEVE the concept of freedom through discipline.


When you do transcribe extensively, you will be amazed with the simplicity of music. The same is true of our spoken language. You do not need to use big or sophisticated words to express meaningful and powerful messages. If the previous statement were not true then we would all be bored with words like; the, and, it, yes, good, etc., How can I express myself without using the same words and sentence structure as everyone else on the planet? Obviously it is the message which is unique. Not the language.

Let's learn a few melodies with a bit less stability: (dfed) (defe) (defa) (degf) (dafe).

Now let's combine some of the A's (most stable) with some B's (less stable) to create a two bar phrase: (dada defa) (dada dafe) (dfaf defa) (defe dafe).

Notice that some of the melodies move away from stability while others move toward stability. This displaces the point where the release of tension occurs. A good walking line is ALL ABOUT TENSION - RELEASE!

A few melodies with a bit more tension "C's": (defg) (dgfe) (defc#) (dagf) (dafc#).

Let's combine some: (defc# defa) (defa defg) (dgfe dafe) (dada dafc#)

I think this is enough for you to get the idea. However, the idea is not to learn dozens of short melodic phrases. Rather, I encourage you to spend a few weeks PLAYING 8 one-measure phrases over and over and over so this will engrain the sounds into your ear and you will begin to improvise longer phrases.

I also want warn you against the pitfall of overplaying. You can see that each melody above begins with the root. Of course there are other choices, but you will not become a good player by exploring the endless possibilities, but rather by learning a limited amount of material WELL. Only then will you truly begin to speak and improvise in this language called jazz.

I continually have students asking me to help them improve their walking lines. They all feel that they need more ammunition when what they need is better aim. If you will transcribe the great players, you will see the simplicity and repetition. Believe me, this is no mistake.

I recently had a student (who is quite proficient on his instrument) ask me, after playing a line from "Walking In The Footsteps Of Paul Chambers", "How did he [PC] keep from getting so bored?"

Answer: One probably would get bored reciting a formula, or speaking randomly, (playing d Dorian) but if the message you are conveying is coming from your heart (ear) no one gets bored; you or the listener.

http://www.bassworkout.com/

Brianrost,

A good walking line is ALL ABOUT PHRASING!

A good walking line is ALL ABOUT TENSION - RELEASE!

If you will transcribe the great players, you will see the simplicity and repetition. Believe me, this is no mistake.


http://www.bassworkout.com/

I didn't mean to chop up your post, but I just wanted to paraphrase and say that I agree.
Also, think linearly (is that a word?) ie; 2 or more measures at a time, ie; descending whole tone scale in Giant Steps. The good players think in 4 to 8 bar or more phrases. Use classical fingering exercises, ie; in Dm, d,f,e,g,f,a,e,g, back to d. repeat it or extend it out to four measures. You are hitting root and third on the downbeat and filling in other scale tones in between. Of course it depends on the context of the tune and what sounds good.
Use or make up melodies that fit and sound good and are tasteful.
And, don't forget. This is supposed to be fun. Relax. We're playing, not working.

Hope it's not too late to reply to this thread. When I was studying with Gary Willis (he's not an URB player but a damn good EBG player) he said the best way to keep a minor modal-type tune interesting was to imply minor ii-V's at the end of phrases (2-bar, 4-bar, etc.). Then I started transcribing Ron Carter's bassline on "Impressions" from the Aebersold record. I noticed Mr. Carter was doing that a lot. It seems like most of the cats are doing that. I think the guy playing on Moondance is even doing it to a degree.

-Scot

V - I is a failsafe approach. There is nothing that say you need to put it in any particular place. For instance, start the section with a V chord idea :)

Even on modal stuff (So What, etc.), most players give up the goat and start playing V-I's after a while, although the point of that music was to get around or away from traditional harmony.

'Shave and a Hair Cut, Two Bits' is one strong cadence!

You're right, Ray. I shouldn't have said "the best way" and Gary didn't say that either (I don't think he ever said anything was "the best way", come to think of it). He said "a good way" and that's what I meant to say.

-Scot

I found a site with notated examples of some of the points that Ray and some of the others made in the thread:

http://www.orbismusic.com/bass%20pages/Modal%20walking%20bass.html

I don't have much to add except to back up Jim's response...I was a student of his from 96 to 99 a BCM...

The ideas that he purveyed are ones that I still use extensively as a player and a teacher to this day...The stuff is worth its weight in gold and adaptable to every style of music...

Thanks Jim

A lot of people have problems freeing themselves from the roots in their lines and 2 or more bars of any chord is a good chance to easily do just that. With even more bars, you definitely have to avoid the root a lot (on the first beat of the bar) because otherwise it just sounds "wrong".

Ostinatos are a great way to start and can help you develop some tension in your lines. Find a good one bar riff and repeat it numerous times and then break out with something else. To add even more tension, make the ostinato something that deliberately adds tension. For example on D minor, play an ostinato that begins on A so that it wants to resolve to the root but never let it go there (at least for a while). The ostinato will also give you some time to breathe and think of other things. Heck sometimes I will just play A repeatedly for a couple of bars (and believe me it will get the attention of both the band and the audience) and then resolve it to D in a strong way (with a push or a skip or just accenting the note) and it creates a lot of tension with release.

With modal stuff as Ray points out, in some cases it is better to get away from more traditional ideas. Expanding on the ostinato idea, if you're in D minor, create an ostinato that outlines say G7 and to make it more ambiguous, leave out the third (which could be minor or major if its Dorian). By doing that you're implying a II-V-I but not one that resolves to D but resolves to C instead. So you create tension and then when you do resolve to D, the resolution is unexpected too.

Like I said ... my ear hears both the maj3 and 4 as avoid notes,
As a leading tone on a chord change, M3 is OK. What I don't get at all is your aversion to 4. It can be very effective when used instead of the root on a tonic, especially after a cadence. When the whole band is landing on D minor, a big fat G underneath it all sounds great. Like any device, overuse can turn it into a cliche, but try it. Get familiar with its effect, and then you'll feel places where it fits well.

Um, no Show me a walk over 2 or more bars of Gm7 for instance.

Another way to approach it is to substitute chords in the line to make it sound a little less "scalar" (unless that is what you're going for)

(of course, as someone mentioned before it is important to know where the G-7 is leading so I'll treat this as a static G-7 vamp)

The obvious one in a G-7 over two bars is to stick a II-V (A-7b5 D7) change in there. You can also take that a step further and do a tri-tone substitution for the D7 (Ab7) which will again lead you back to the G-7. Horn players always seem to like this under their solos because it gives them a sense of changing harmony instead of the rising and falling of modal/scalar playing.

Another one is to use what another poster said about alternating roots and fifths as the first note in a bar to elongate the phrase. You can take that a step further by putting in a II-V change before hitting the target fifth (think of the D as a D- and do a E-7b 5-A7) and proceed up to the higher G. Of course with all these things, it has to sound good but this is just another angle to approach it from. After backing a soloist for various choruses it's good to break things up and going chordally is a way I try to do that.

If you play too many Eb notes on the "A" section of So What you might start sounding like you're playing Flamenco Sketches (or going to the bridge too early). :D Just funnin'.

-Scot

.....I meant to say if you land on the Eb note on a strong beat. Of course, it's great to use the Eb note as passing between D and E natural.