Dear All

I just read some article online, and the writer referred to MODAL INTERCHANGE.
What exactly is it? and How to use it?
Any suggestions and helps?

Thank you very much for your help.
Pongsak
Bangkok, Thailand

Well, maybe DURRRL or one of the resident theory heads'll chime in, but until then.

Basically it's a "common practice" tool that will let you "exchange" the notes in a chord function without changing key. Say you're in Cmajor. And you're clipping along and suddenly there is a D7 chord. No setup, no modulation just a II7 outa nowhere. And then it's gone and for the rest of the phrase you're in C major. How do you deal with what happened? You have "exchanged" your minor 2 chord for a dominant chord by going to a mode where the 2 chord is dominant.

Again, theory is just a collection of "observed behaviors" that seem to be prevalent. Composers would do this, it sounded good and this was a way to "explain" it.

"Youuuuuu must take the A Traaaaaiinnn...."

Well, maybe DURRRL or one of the resident theory heads'll chime in, but until then....




Gee, I always thought it was what happened when a musician dressed up in his wife's clothes, but after reading your post, I'm not so sure.

JIFFY LUBE - if you can give an example in context (or better yet, just link the article), between the bunch of us old goofballs we can probably nail it down for you. I can think of three or four different situations where the term might apply.

http://www.station185.com/kronoson/kronosonic/lessons/modal%20interchange.pdf

http://www.station185.com/kronoson/kronosonic/lessons/modal%20interchange.pdf

Well, there ya go. In legit theory, this is most often called "Mode Mixture" or "Borrowed Chords". But "Modal Interchange" is cool, and sounds way more expensive and impressive. :)

Hey whadya know? I was in the ballpark.

OK, so using that example you could use C lydian...?

Am I right in thinking this is a common thing in jazz - to find chords that just appear 'outta nowhere'?

In the material my band are attempting to play, there seems to be a few of these oddly placed chords. Our drummer picks all these pretty unusual numbers and the sheets seems to be more than a little odd - in my v,v limited experience at least!?


EDIT - agree, yeah it does sound cool.. like something from Hitch Hikers Guide...

OK, so using that example you could use C lydian...?

Am I right in thinking this is a common thing in jazz - to find chords that just appear 'outta nowhere'?

.

Hello Howard - nice to hear from you again!! Yes - it seems to be common in originals wriiten by Jazz musicians - like experiments with what will sound right - often you will get chords that are a semi-tone away or something like that. So, on Saturday I was playing this Sam Rivers tune called "Beatrice" where it has this kind of "logical" progression, but not functional...?

So it goes :

FMaj7 / GbMaj7 (#4)/FMaj7 / EbMaj7

DMin7 / EbMaj7/ Dmin7 / BbMin7

AMin7 / BbMaj7 / EMin7 A7 / DMin7

GMin 7 / GbMaj7(#4) / F Min7 / GbMaj7(#4)


So you have this kind of "up and down" a semi-tone in the root, which gives the form a logical "shape" - but doesn't seem to have any functional derivation - or does it...?

This tune is kind of a play on tritone subs. If you discount the the quality of the 7th in many of the chords and to roots of a couple of others:


FMaj7 / GbMaj7 (#4)/FMaj7 / EbMaj7

DMin7 / EbMaj7/ Dmin7 / BbMin7

AMin7 / BbMaj7 / EMin7 A7 / DMin7

GMin 7 / GbMaj7(#4) / F Min7 / GbMaj7(#4)

consider as --

FMaj7 / Gb7 (#4)/FMaj7 / Eb7

DMin7 / Eb7/ Dmin7 / C7sus (b9)

F/A / BbMaj7 / EMin7 A7 / DMin7

GMin 7 / C7 / F Min7 / C7(#4)

and then the final step --

FMaj7 / C7 (#4)/FMaj7 / A7

DMin7 / A7/ Dmin7 / C7sus (b9)

F / BbMaj7 / EMin7 A7 / DMin7

GMin 7 / C7 / F Min7 / C7(#4)

It's really a bunch of V-I's in realtive major and minor with the chord qualities changed. I think this is why these changes work so well and sound fresh after a steady diet of Tin Pan Alley tunes...

Nicely done, Raymondo.

Thanks!

Thank you very much. That is very useful for a non-professional bassist like me.

I learn the new knowledge on TBDB everyday. I love it. :)

Pongsak

Bangkok, Thailand

That's very intersting... copied for further study :)

I sort of assumed, well guessed that any chord movement a semi-tone up from a tonic is some sort of tweak on the subbed V7 chord, but there's a zillion others I cant get my head round!

I'll have to dig out some of the changes in these songs I've been attempting to learn and post some questions...

I'm really enjoying learning at the moment, the way the changes on the sheet gradually unfold into a piece of music in your mind as you play through. I'm starting to recognise/ hear more and more changes from the sheet each time I play. I'm sure this is only the most basic level of understanding, but it's great

I'm away in Devon next week for a friends wedding... my acoustic BG, a bunch of CDs and a load of sheets are coming with me and I'm going to work on learning a stack of melodies - some are easy.. and some arent! The Mrs loves it ;)

H

If you discount the the quality of the 7th in many of the chords and to roots of a couple of others:
....with the chord qualities changed.

So - is this the same as what was being discussed - i.e. "borrowing" chords from other tonalities - as you say, that quality of chord doesn't 'belong' in that key - or are you saying that you see this as something different?

So - is this the same as what was being discussed - i.e. "borrowing" chords from other tonalities - as you say, that quality of chord doesn't 'belong' in that key - or are you saying that you see this as something different?

It's something different, using modal interchange is not a substitution. A substitution works because the chords fulfill the same function. Modal interchange ignores function. In the progression D-7 Db7 Cmaj7, the Db is acting as a substitution for the V chord G7. In the progression D-7 Db-7 Cmaj7 you are using a "borrowed" chord from another scale.

Keys are really just a starting point often times, and they really more important as a point of reference for a tune as well as giving you some good, solid, diatonic notes for a particular chord or progression. Almost everything will stray away from straight, diatonic chords or everything would sound like "Happy Birthday".

An example would be I IV III VI II V I

In C, for example, this would be CMaj7 FMaj7 E-7 A-7 D-7 G7 CMaj7

Rarely will you hear it this way, though. CMaj7 FMaj7 E-7 A7 D-7 G7 CMaj7 is what you'll get. The reason being is that the ear likes to hear a little more tension and release, so E-7 A7 gives your ear a V I movement as opposed to diatonic meanderings. E-7 A7 puts you in the key of D for just a sec, even though you probably would still be playing C over the E-7 as the effect of the temporary key change hasn't kicked in yet.
Once outside of traditional Tin Pan Alley tunes, into jazz compositions of the 60's and into pop tunes of the 70's and on, there is a lot written that are 'Tone Poem' like in their compostition. Writers started stringing together chords that sound good in sequence without much regard to the standard V I progression that strings together so many of the older tunes. I've found, though, that these tone poems tend to work best for my ear when there is still some interesting tension and resolution going on. In the example of 'Beatrice' above, the root movements are suggesting traditional harmonies, but the quality of the chords have been changed. In other examples the roots of the chords might be all over the map, but the middles and tops of the chords are going down traditional paths. As an example, here are some changes from a tune that I wrote:

D/Bb | A/C# | C/Bb | Ab7 (#11) |
GMaj7 | A7 |C7 (#11) | |

Playing over these can be daunting (why I do this to myself....), but let's look at the thing:

D/Bb - D -- I chord
A/C# - A -- V chord
C/Bb - D7 altered
Ab7 (#11) same
GMaj7 - II-7/IV are really about the same chord
A7 - obvious
C7 (#11) - D/C7 -- there's we are back at the tonic, though be it buried at the top of the chord.

When you play these chords, you don't necessarily hear directly what I point out in the rundown, but the chords seem to work together and I believe that this is why.

and the writer referred to MODAL INTERCHANGE.
What exactly is it?
What is it? It's f***ing precious, that's what. I am so f***ing tired of blowhard talkers it makes my hair hurt. This pedantic crap takes all the fun out of music.
Schoenberg (no umlaut on my keyboard) simply observed that there's a difference between chord progression and chord succession and let it drop.
I guess I'm too p ssed to make sense.

I don't see why you'd be pissed at this, DonO. Although the guy wasn't very in depth or clear about his idea, what he's talking about is good information for those who are just starting to understand keys.

I learned the concept by the term 'temporary keys' which is how I learned how to understand and approach all of the chords and progressions in a tune that had nothing to do with the key of the tune.

What is it? It's f***ing precious, that's what. I am so f***ing tired of blowhard talkers it makes my hair hurt. This pedantic crap takes all the fun out of music.
I guess I'm too p ssed to make sense.

Sorry Don, if my curious hurt you.




Pongsak

I'm certain that Don wasn't venting because of you. I think he was on the guy who wrote the article.

Sorry Don, if my curious hurt you.




Pongsak
My irritation is not directed toward you at all, Pongsak. It is toward people who puff up themselves by using lofty phrases for things that can be understood more quickly and easily with plain speech. Ray's "temporary keys" is a fine illustration. "Modal interchange" strikes me as his way of saying "See how smart I am? You're not."

Sounds like what I learned as "tonicity."

I think what was being discussed here initially is best described as "borrowing" chords from another key center. But not just any other key center. The reason these "borrowed" chords have similar functions is that they come from the parallel major or minor tonality. In other words, you may be in the key of C Major, but you encounter a chord which is normally found in C Minor. The simplest example I can think of is, ii-V-I. In C major, D-7 G7 CMA7. For another version, "borrow" D-7b5 and G7b9 (from C Minor) and use that as your ii-V, still resolving to Cmajor. This is where I have to disagree with Ed in that we are not ignoring function. And in fact it is a substitution. Another basic example is when you have a "minor iv" chord in a major key, like F-6 in the key of C Major - borrowed from the parallel C Minor.

Anybody else's hair hurt yet?

Anybody else's hair hurt yet?


Anybody else's what??? My scalp itches. Does that count?

It's something different, using modal interchange is not a substitution. A substitution works because the chords fulfill the same function. Modal interchange ignores function. In the progression D-7 Db7 Cmaj7, the Db is acting as a substitution for the V chord G7. In the progression D-7 Db-7 Cmaj7 you are using a "borrowed" chord from another scale.
Let me clarify.
1.Beatrice for the most part is not an example of modal interchange as per my previous post (And Ed's). However,
2.Modal interchange (since we are using this term) is a kind of substitution.
3.Not all substitutions contain chords which fulfill the same function as the ones they replaced.
4.Modal interchange does not ignore function.
5."If you ain't from Texas, you ain't s***!" doesn't imply that "If you are from Texas, you are s***!".
6.Db-7 is indeed borrowed from another sacle, but it is not an example of this type of interchange since it is not from the parallel key.

Clarity, thy name is T-BAL...

Let me clarify.
1.Beatrice for the most part is not an example of modal interchange as per my previous post (And Ed's).


So.....in some parts it is an example of this...?

So.....in some parts it is an example of this...?
Bar 8. Bb-7 is from the parallel minor, if you consider the whole tune is in F.

Bar 8. Bb-7 is from the parallel minor, if you consider the whole tune is in F.


Oh right - thanks for that! :)

So - next time I'm playing that tune, I am determined to say to somebody - do you realise that bar 8 is an example of modal interchange?

:D

Oh right - thanks for that! :)

So - next time I'm playing that tune, I am determined to say to somebody - do you realise that bar 8 is an example of modal interchange?

:DOh, and the obvious one, bar 15, which actually is the parallel minor.

I can see I better get my story straight!! ;)

:Yee Haa!

Damn kids and their damn internet.


In your first two posts, you log on to pick a fight about a post that wasn't even directed at you? Very nice. Welcome to TB. How about filling in your profile, so everyone can have a better idea of where all of this derision is coming from? We don't encourage this type of flamebait here, but you're new, so you probably didn't know that. Please fill in your profile and read the Forum Rules (http://www.talkbass.com/forum/faq.php?) before continuing.

I see that the thread has been reopened, which is fine as long as we stick to the subject at hand. My own objection to the term "modal interchange" is simply that is uses ostentatious language where simple language would suffice. Here at UofL, we teach the concept as "borrowed chords" - "borrowed", as T-Bal so eloquently explained, from the parallel major or minor. It's just a personal preference, but I think the simple explanations are best.

Keep it up and you'll be reported to Berklee, too.

C/Bb - D7 altered

How so? Natural 9th, Natural 11th?

Altered in a melodic minor sense, I guess is what I was getting at. The implied chord is a C triad and a D triad over the the Bb.


triad 1 : c e g
triad 2 : d f# a
root : Bb
resultant scale : c d e f# g a Bb
root mode of above : g a bB c d e f#


The way I hear it, the tops of the chords are simple I V IV type movements in D major, with altered bass notes creating non-D Major harmony. Somehow the simple movements is what sticks in my ear.

The movement from C/Bb to Ab7 alt. has the overall function of a V I to G major (lydian). I guess perhaps it would have been a little more accurate to characterize the C/Bb as a D7sus(b13)? The end result is the same though, methinks.

Fair enough. I'm not going to argue with you, since you wrote the tune! :)

Just that I associate altered chords with the 7th mode of the melodic minor, so D7alt would be from Eb melodic minor - and would have the b9 or #9 (or both) and #11, so I wasn't quite sure where you were coming from.

Ultimately, it doesn't really matter, does it?

Sure it does, and you're right on the D7alt bit. I was just using the term 'altered' a little loosely...more in it's literal sense than common usage. I should have given fair warning. :)

Keep it up and you'll be reported to Berklee, too.


Ooh, the BERKLEE POLICE. I'm so scared! Is there an underground railroad for theory fugitives? :hiding:

Berklee police - are they the new KeysTone Cops?

And as a moderator of these fora, it certainly seems childish for you to take cheap shots at folks by twisting their names in your reply, why not grow up and learn how to moderate. Yes, calling him "Hardly" is taking a cheap shot at the guy, period. Then to tell him that he should read up on the Forum Rules is hypocricy at it's best.


"HARDLY" has been deemed a troll, and his posts have been summarily deleted. I have edited your previous response for content, and suggest that neither you nor anyone attempt a repeat of the edited content.

Sam and I are tiring of the babysitting duties here lately, and respectfully request that everyone do your best to be civil to each other so we can all have a nice place to talk about bass-related things and otherwise get on with our lives.

NOTE TO ALL TB/DB MEMBERS - Please report any new "HARDLY" posts, or any other obvious troll posts to Sam or myself when you see them so we can dispense with them in good time and still have some time to spend with our families and practice. :)

Cool! Now that we're back in the groove...

...Beatrice for the most part is not an example of modal interchange as per my previous post...
Just to be argumentative, I thought that I had made a pretty good argument that it is!

:rolleyes: Sigh...just in case anybody was wondering, going back later and editing your posts to remove moderator warnings for rules violations does not erase the fact the comment was posted in the first place. Those who read it will remember it. Nice try, though. :rolleyes:

Wow, just like in real life.

Back on topic: I have a couple of handouts that I use in both legit and jazz theory classes called "Cast of Harmonic Characters". The handouts basically list all diatonic chords and inversions in each key, plus secondary dominant and diminished chords (for the legit handouts, they also include the Augmented 6th chords and the Neapolitan). Students are required to fill out all chords in all keys, then when they reach a certain point, I instruct them to think of the handouts for Major and Parallel minor as being basically inclusive of each other since "Borrowed Chords" are actually so common as to not be surprising in this day and age.

If anyone has eyes, I'd be happy to post a couple of these in this thread, but I may need help getting them uploaded due to my technologically challenged nature. :rolleyes: :D

Just to be argumentative, I thought that I had made a pretty good argument that it is!
Ogiginally posted by Dorothy Parker
This tune is kind of a play on tritone subs. If you discount the the quality of the 7th in many of the chords and to roots of a couple of others:

FMaj7 / GbMaj7 (#4)/FMaj7 / EbMaj7
DMin7 / EbMaj7/ Dmin7 / BbMin7
AMin7 / BbMaj7 / EMin7 A7 / DMin7
GMin 7 / GbMaj7(#4) / F Min7 / GbMaj7(#4)

consider as --

FMaj7 / Gb7 (#4)/FMaj7 / Eb7
DMin7 / Eb7/ Dmin7 / C7sus (b9)
F/A / BbMaj7 / EMin7 A7 / DMin7
GMin 7 / C7 / F Min7 / C7(#4)

and then the final step --

FMaj7 / C7 (#4)/FMaj7 / A7
DMin7 / A7/ Dmin7 / C7sus (b9)
F / BbMaj7 / EMin7 A7 / DMin7
GMin 7 / C7 / F Min7 / C7(#4)

It's really a bunch of V-I's in realtive major and minor with the chord qualities changed. I think this is why these changes work so well and sound fresh after a steady diet of Tin Pan Alley tunes...

While your explanation of the derivation of the chords in the tune is of course dead-on balls accurate, I was merely pointing out that this analysis did not fall into the category of "borrowed chords" as I see it. In other words, to be called a borrowed chord, the root of that chord must exist in the parallel key center. Since there is no Gb in the key of F minor, it's not being borrowed from anywhere. As you said, it seems more a case a of a tritone sub kind of application.

Or you could think of it as "planing" where you take a sonority and simply move it around chromatically (the first 4 bars).

Ok. :)

Back on topic: I have a couple of handouts that I use in both legit and jazz theory classes called "Cast of Harmonic Characters". The handouts basically list all diatonic chords and inversions in each key, plus secondary dominant and diminished chords (for the legit handouts, they also include the Augmented 6th chords and the Neapolitan). Students are required to fill out all chords in all keys, then when they reach a certain point, I instruct them to think of the handouts for Major and Parallel minor as being basically inclusive of each other since "Borrowed Chords" are actually so common as to not be surprising in this day and age.

If anyone has eyes, I'd be happy to post a couple of these in this thread, but I may need help getting them uploaded due to my technologically challenged nature. :rolleyes: :D


Yes, Please.


Thank you for your kindness.

Pongsak

Yes, Please.


Thank you for your kindness.

Pongsak


The handouts will take a little time, and because they include more information than the subject of "Borrowed Chords/Mode Mixture/Modal Interchange/Intramodal Superjuxtaposition" ( :rolleyes: ) requires, I'll simplify things in a shorter post. Then, if you want the rest of the stuff, I'll post the "Cast of Characters" stuff later.

Basically, what it boils down to is that there's a set of chords which normally occur in Major Keys, and another set which occur in the parallel minor. I'll post two sets, one for "Legit" harmony, and one for "Jazz":

C Major ("Legit"):

...CMa...Dmi....Emi....FMa....G7......Ami.....Bdim , or Bmi7b5
.....I.......ii.......iii.......IV.......V7....... vi.......viio (diminished if triad, half diminished if 7th chord)


C Minor ("Legit"):

...Cmi...Ddim*....EbMa...Fmi....G7......AbMa....Bd im(7)
.....i.......iio*.......III.......iv.......V7..... ..VI.......viio(7)

(*if the 7th is added, both of these chords would be half-diminished 7th chords)

In addition, because minor can typically use both versions of the 6th and 7th ("natural" as in the parallel Major and "lowered"), the following chords are also possible in minor:
....Dmi.....Eb+.....Gmi....Adim*.....BbMa
.....ii.......III+.......v.......vio*.......bVII

(* as above)

So what "Mode Mixture" boils down to is that when you are in a major or minor key, you can "borrow" or use any of the naturally ocurring chords from the parallel key. i.e. - if you see an Fmi chord in the key of C Major, it's really just a "Borrowed" iv chord from C minor, or what the author you cited would call "Modal Interchange". Does that help?

Here are the Jazz versions. For the sake of consistency, I've kept the lowercase Roman numerals to denote minor chords, but for the sake of clarity I've replaced the "mi" symbols with a minus sign (-) to show the minor designation of the 7th. Some theory texts use all uppercase numerals, and some don't use the minus sign. Many more modern texts use a triangle to show a Major 7th, but I don't have that available on my keyboard, so I just had to improvise. No pun intended. :)


C Major ("Jazz"):

...CMa7.....D-7...E-7.....FMa7....G7......A-7......B-7b5
.....IMa7....ii-7....iii-7....IVMa7...V7......vi-7....vii-7b5


C Minor ("Jazz"):

...C-7...D-7b5....EbMa7...F-7.....G7alt......AbMa7....Bo7
...i-7.....ii-7b5....IIIMa7...iv-7....V7alt......VIMa7....viio7



In addition, because minor can typically use both versions of the 6th and 7th ("natural" as in the parallel Major and "lowered"), the following chords are also possible in minor:

..C-Ma7.....EbMa7+5......G-7....A-7b5.....BbMa7
...i-Ma7.....IIIMa7+5.......v-7....vi-7b5....bVIIMa7

There are a couple of other very esoteric possibilities involving the "natural 6th" (ii-7, IV7, etc.), but these tend to sound borrowed from Major anyway.

Yes, Please.


Thank you for your kindness.

Pongsak
And thank you for your patience. I hope you get the help you want.

Thank you very much, Chris. :D