I was just reading a post from a member of metal band on another board, who said that some of their material was atonal. It just intersted me...

I'm struggling to imagine how music that had no tonal centre would be created? Any insights, just for interest sake really?! :)

There's a ton of avant garde composers out there making what could be described as atonal. Harry Partch, Frank Tichelli, Charles Ives, etc. Alot of ambient artists use the atonal aproach; Robert Fripp, Death Cube K, Benjamin Strange ( :smug: ), etc.

The trick to making music like this is to throw away any preconcieved notions as to what music "should" sound like. Dissonance can be a beautiful thing, and being in tune all time time can be pretty overrated. Atonal musicians find beauty in the clash of notes and the color that it imparts.

...I'm struggling to imagine how music that had no tonal centre would be created? Any insights, just for interest sake really?! :)

Some additional aspects to what Benjamin has mentioned - It is like tonal music, in that, it uses the same intervals/chords as other musical styles. However, the chords don't typically follow a harmonic progression. Concepts such as dissonance and/or chordal stability are thrown out the window.

Schoenberg, Bartok and Copland are 3 composers I know of who were leading the way with atonalism. Some may think Korn is atonal but it's really just a band who exploits dissonance.

Maybe I did learn something in college! :eek:

Partch is definately not atonal. Atonal and odd are not the same thing at all. I suppose he may have done some atonal songs, but I haven't heard them.

In atonal music, the composer tries not to create any tonal frame of reference, especially by avoiding repetition. Amusingly, I was just about to read a paper called "Zipf’s law and the creation of musical context" (http://xxx.arxiv.org/abs/cs.CL/0406015). It discusses extending Zipf's law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zipf%27s_law) to music. See here (http://www.nature.com/nsu/040614/040614-11.html) for an article that's easier to understand. Basically, repetition creates context, and atonal music doesn't do that, not with pitches any way. Rhythmically, repetition is fine..

Partch does alot of atonal stuff, as well microtonal stuff. Perhaps you've just missed those.

I haven't heard any of his stuff that has a definite pitch center, but I may have missed that.

The easy thing to remember is that tonal music gives preference to certain notes - i.e. a 7 note scale - whereas atonal music gives equal weight to all the notes of the chromatic scale.

Schoenberg, Bartok and Copland are 3 composers I know of who were leading the way with atonalism. Some may think Korn is atonal but it's really just a band who exploits dissonance.

Maybe I did learn something in college! :eek:

Hmm...well - Schoenberg is commonly credited with this - but he really developed "serialism" and the 12 tone row - in fact he hated the term "atonal" and refused to use it for his music - he preferrred the term "pantonal".

Along with Berg and Webern though, he did pioneer what is now known as atonal music - in the "Viennese school".

Copland was no pioneer of atonality- but was a fan of Schoenberg when he was young - he is definitely most famous for his works which are very melodic and searching for an Amercian music - inlcuding elements of Jazz, the old West etc.

Bartok, as far as I know wasn't influenced by atonality at all - and is most famous for his systematic exploration of Hungarian folk music and its inclusion in his own music - his most famous pieces were composed, liek Copland's, about 20-30 years after the Viennese School's development of serialism.

The trick to making music like this is to throw away any preconcieved notions as to what music "should" sound like. Dissonance can be a beautiful thing, and being in tune all time time can be pretty overrated. Atonal musicians find beauty in the clash of notes and the color that it imparts.

+1

I play/write pieces that are Atonal and ones that switch back and forth, every now and then [a good reason to ALWAYS have a recorder handy], I don't plan them they just happen. It's like my brain unloading. I'm always amazed afterward that they actually make musical sense. I think it is also therapy, just making it up as I go, that and I tend to do this at deafening volumes.

All good chaps, cheers.

In atonal music, the composer tries not to create any tonal frame of reference, especially by avoiding repetition.
I think this makes most sense to me. I guess (?) that the ear wants to create a frame of reference for everything it hears, and repetition is most likely to allow it to do that??

Anyway, I was talking with this guy a little more about it this morning, he gave me an example of some repeating riff, in tab, that he considered atonal. It was F "power-chord minor" with chromatic passing tones that fell conveniently on the weaker beats assuming it was 8ths notes in 4? So, enough of that...

This is a very intersting topic, I shall read the articles posted above.

? I imagine atonal music could be very soothing if created using smooth sounds played at a slow tempo, or horrifically tense if created using harsh abrupt sounds at a fast tempo?

? I also imagine that much jazz sounds a tonal to many people?

? Does atonal music bear some resemblence to 'sounds of nature', I mean nice sounds of nature have no tonal centre, but they are nice, relaxing etc, and nasty sounds are the exact opposite

cheers again guys, v intersting, many questions. I may post again if I can/cant make sense of those articles!

? I imagine atonal music could be very soothing if created using smooth sounds played at a slow tempo,
Yes - some of Olivier Messiaen's atonal music is fairly soothing.

I also imagine that much jazz sounds a tonal to many people?


Technically - Free Jazz should be atonal - but of course, players have a bias towards tonality, when improvising - so probably only the very best Free Jazz is actually atonal. ;)


? Does atonal music bear some resemblence to sounds of nature, I mean nice sounds of nature have no tonal centre, but they are nice, relaxing etc, and nasty sounds are the exact opposite


It can indeed - so Messiaen transcribed birdsongs, which can be very beautiful - but are effectively atonal, as birds have no bias towards a tonal "system" !!

They don't know theory!! ;)

Technically - Free Jazz should be atonal - but of course, players have a bias towards tonality, when improvising - so probably only the very best Free Jazz is actually atonal. ;)



What?? Who decided that free jazz "should" be atonal? My impression is that it is supposed to be "free" to become whatever the players performing it in the moment are hearing at that particular moment.

Schoenberg actually despised the label "atonal", preferring the term "pantonal" instead. The way I understand his meaning, the difference in his use of the two terms is similar to the difference between the terms "atheist" and "pantheist".

The idea of free jazz being atonal is interesting too... I imagine it would be like a musical game of scissors paper stone, but with 'a few' more variables :D

What?? Who decided that free jazz "should" be atonal? My impression is that it is supposed to be "free" to become whatever the players performing it in the moment are hearing at that particular moment.


In evidence you honour, I offer '77 Shades of Lipstick' Andy Shepherd and Keith Tippet - totally free - totally tuneful. they toured and it was superb. Doubt it got released in the states though.


Schoenberg actually despised the label "atonal", preferring the term "pantonal" instead. The way I understand his meaning, the difference in his use of the two terms is similar to the difference between the terms "atheist" and "pantheist".

Atheist - no god, pantheist - god and the universe are the same thing. However, can I reccomend read of this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantonal) - breifly atonal has been a pejoritive term and implied to some 'without music' so pantonal was meant to imply use of all musical resources rather than just a fixed tonal centre.

Hmm...well - Schoenberg is commonly credited with this - but he really developed "serialism" and the 12 tone row - in fact he hated the term "atonal" and refused to use it for his music - he preferrred the term "pantonal".


4-5 hours later.......

Non-originally posted by Chris Fitzlater
Schoenberg actually despised the label "atonal", preferring the term "pantonal" instead.

:D

What?? Who decided that free jazz "should" be atonal? My impression is that it is supposed to be "free" to become whatever the players performing it in the moment are hearing at that particular moment.


Well that comment was "tongue in cheek" - a little joke for Howard - but I was thinking of the defintion of atonal, as favouring no particular key centre, when I said that! ;)

4-5 hours later.......

:D

Sorry, I saw only your preceeding post when responding. However, given that you are aware of the term as well, I think it's a better descriptive for free jazz than the "atonal" moniker you applied to it in your last post. BTW, I am an agnostic pantheist in both religion and music. :)

It can indeed - so Messiaen transcribed birdsongs, which can be very beautiful - but are effectively atonal, as birds have no bias towards a tonal "system" !!

They don't know theory!! ;)

I know this was only a joke, but I just want to point out that nature is full of natural harmony. The resonance of fundamental note will have natural overtones that quickly create the notes of a major scale (except a concave bell, which creates minor overtones!). I am of the feeling that the term atonal is a misnomer as the human ear hears thing tonally.

Also, and I know what you were saying was only a quip, birdsong is very tonal. It was more to do with the way that Messiaen layered the transcriptions that made them sound atonal.

Just my geeky input! :rolleyes:

Douglas.

Sorry, I saw only your preceeding post when responding. However, given that you are aware of the term as well, I think it's a better descriptive for free jazz than the "atonal" moniker you applied to it in your last post. BTW, I am an agnostic pantheist in both religion and music. :)


I agree that's the best way to be - I remember writing a paper at University on Eclectic Gnosticism in latterday cults, which could be seen as the exact opposite of this position - and best avoided!! ;)

Also, and I know what you were saying was only a quip, birdsong is very tonal. It was more to do with the way that Messiaen layered the transcriptions that made them sound atonal.


But have you ever transcribed a swift or swallow - they are incredible - far out stuff, man!! ;)

Just a little update, I got some more info from this guy this arvo... his posts weren't at all clear this morning - his explantion of how the tabbed riff was used to create atonal music was spread across several posts...

His (probably pretty scary) metal band take a simple 8th note riff, then repeat the same pattern of intervals starting on a random note each time. So, effectively playing a melody that doesnt have a tonal centre (unless repeated?) and then shifting it to written random start points each bar, to create a long, complex series of notes with no tonal centre and virtually no repetition.
They use "the riff" to create atonal music. Quite smart I thought, but then I'm only a bass player ;)

I cant imagine it sounds very nice, but then that's the point in metal I guess!!

Just a little update, I got some more info from this guy this arvo... his posts weren't at all clear this morning - his explantion of how the tabbed riff was used to create atonal music was spread across several posts...

His (probably pretty scary) metal band take a simple 8th note riff, then repeat the same pattern of intervals starting on a random note each time. So, effectively playing a melody that doesnt have a tonal centre (unless repeated?) and then shifting it to written random start points each bar, to create a long, complex series of notes with no tonal centre and virtually no repetition.
They use "the riff" to create atonal music. Quite smart I thought, but then I'm only a bass player ;)

I cant imagine it sounds very nice, but then that's the point in metal I guess!!

This isn't necessarily atonal - more like transposition.

Hmm...well - Schoenberg is commonly credited with this - but he really developed "serialism" and the 12 tone row - in fact he hated the term "atonal"

Copland was no pioneer of atonality-

Bartok, as far as I know wasn't influenced by atonality at all -


I guess our educational experiences were different. As you know, in the university, you have to regurgitate what has been offered by the professor. My highest level music professor used to hand out the sheet music at the beginning of every class and we had to read it like a text as we listened to music. Most of the students in our class were aspiring conductors and I was sort of the "germ" in the class.

So what I'm saying is - He could have been wrong.....but it's all I know.

Some points;

> Whether or not Schoenberg hated the term, "atonal". - "you is what you is." Any decent text on atonality brings up his name in the first paragraph or two

> I NEVER SAID Copland was a "pioneer" of atonality. He merely incorporated it and wasn't afraid to use it when tonality was how the vast majority of composers were reliant on tonality.

> Bartok not into "atonality at all" ?!?!........well, we went to different schools. True, he hid the atonal aspects, but they were there.
I know, because in my last year of college, our final exam was wearing headphones and dissecting what we heard on the music we were hearing..........and Bartok's use of all kind of polytonality and whatever just zapped my grade. :rolleyes:
Then again, maybe my professor, a hotshot with the St. Louis Symphony could have wrong.

Partch does alot of atonal stuff, as well microtonal stuff. Perhaps you've just missed those.
Yes, that's entirely possible, my listening experience consists of his Dionysus opera, the name of which I forget, and a couple of snippets. The snippets, which I just reviewed, seemed quite tonal to me. Especially one of them, which uses his marimba eroica to provide a drone.

Along with Berg and Webern though, he did pioneer what is now known as atonal music - in the "Viennese school".


Actually, that's the "Second Viennese school" - the first being a term used to describe the music of Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, and to a certain degree, Brahms.

]Copland was no pioneer of atonality- but was a fan of Schoenberg when he was young - he is definitely most famous for his works which are very melodic and searching for an Amercian music - inlcuding elements of Jazz, the old West etc.

Copland actualy did some wonderfull dabbling with atonality - it's just not as well known as his tonal works. Check out his "Piano Variations", which later became his "Variations for Orchestra". If those aren't atonal, then I don't know what the word means! (I played this piece back in undergrad, and it's one of my all-time favorite "atonal" pieces).



Bartok, as far as I know wasn't influenced by atonality at all -

Check out his 4th Quartet sometime, then get back to me and see if you still want to stand behind that statement. :D

This isn't necessarily atonal - more like transposition.

Music. To write or perform (a composition) in a key other than the original or given key.

Well, I did consider that it was just repeating a riff in random 'keys'... But the riff he used as an example implied two chords in a bar, neither either of which seemed like a tonic (unless the riff was repeated each bar?) - i.e. as far as I could tell there was no obivously II-V or V-I relationship between the implied chords.

Heck I dunno :rolleyes: it's intersting all the same!

Copland actualy did some wonderfull dabbling with atonality - it's just not as well known as his tonal works. Check out his "Piano Variations", which later became his "Variations for Orchestra". If those aren't atonal, then I don't know what the word means! (I played this piece back in undergrad, and it's one of my all-time favorite "atonal" pieces).




Check out his 4th Quartet sometime, then get back to me and see if you still want to stand behind that statement. :D

Well - I was really objecting and reacting to the phrase :

"Bartok and Copland are ...composers I know of who were leading the way with atonalism."

So - I was trying to put this into context - they might well have had odd works that dabbled, but generally they are known for other stuff.

So - if you go to a decent record shop and look for Copland and Bartok - you will find a lot of CDs - but I doubt you will find any that used atonality...:hmm:

I would still say that atonality wasn't a primary influence for Bartok, as much as say Stravinsky's works or the folk music of Central Europe - I also hear an influence of Strauss, Lizt and maybe Debussy.

European music in the second half of the 20C was split quite dramatically between those who did nothing but atonal music and those who still incorporated elements of tonality.

So - Stravinsky himself, went completely over to serialism post-Schoenberg, for many years and it seemed to be a kind of intellectual decision.

I think it was quite clear that Bartok was not in the atonal "camp" , in the way some other composers were, after hearing the 2nd Viennese School.

And if we are talking about composers who were "leading the way" with atonal music - then I think it would be better to say Berg and Webern, for example, rather than Bartok and Copland - that's all I was saying...:)

> I NEVER SAID Copland was a "pioneer" of atonality.

Well - what you said was :

"Schoenberg, Bartok and Copland are 3 composers I know of who were leading the way with atonalism."

That's what I was objecting to.

Well - what you said was :

"Schoenberg, Bartok and Copland are 3 composers I know of who were leading the way with atonalism."

That's what I was objecting to.

Good catch, Bruce.

You're right - my statement, as it is worded, is misleading and inaccurate.

Just a little update, I got some more info from this guy this arvo... his posts weren't at all clear this morning - his explantion of how the tabbed riff was used to create atonal music was spread across several posts...

His (probably pretty scary) metal band take a simple 8th note riff, then repeat the same pattern of intervals starting on a random note each time. So, effectively playing a melody that doesnt have a tonal centre (unless repeated?) and then shifting it to written random start points each bar, to create a long, complex series of notes with no tonal centre and virtually no repetition.

I'm not sure it's appropriate in this case, but generally, music that is randomly-generated is known as "aleatory" ,rather than atonal....?

Another new word.. my scrabble game is improving by the hour! ;)

In essence tho, what they're doing isnt completely random. They're playing the same symettrical pattern of intervals in different places in the octave, so there is quite a simple structure to what they're doing, it is written and rehearsed... the result is atonal.. as far as I can tell?

Thinking about it tho, someone with a good ear would be able to hear that the same pattern of intervals was being played 'randomly'.

Of course, if they use the same conceptbut over an odd meter, it would be even more difficult to decipher.. and probably even more horrible.

Thinking about it tho, someone with a good ear would be able to hear that the same pattern of intervals was being played 'randomly'.
transposition ;)

Another new word.. my scrabble game is improving by the hour! ;)

In essence tho, what they're doing isnt completely random. They're playing the same symettrical pattern of intervals in different places in the octave, so there is quite a simple structure to what they're doing, it is written and rehearsed... the result is atonal.. as far as I can tell?

Thinking about it tho, someone with a good ear would be able to hear that the same pattern of intervals was being played 'randomly'.

Of course, if they use the same conceptbut over an odd meter, it would be even more difficult to decipher.. and probably even more horrible.

Well, it does have similarities with Schoenberg's concept of serialism - so the idea there, is that you choose a 12 tone "row" - a series of intervals, effectively and you use those notes only in that order, although you can change timbre, dynamics and time - you can't change the order of the row..... ?

Strict serialism would mean those 12 notes were just repeated throughout the piece - although even Schoenberg 'allowed' transformations of the row...

Atonality in metal usually means that the piece is based on rythmic movement and shifts rather than that of melody. A keen example of this would be Deicide's album, Legion.

Atonality in metal usually means that the piece is based on rythmic movement and shifts rather than that of melody. A keen example of this would be Deicide's album, Legion.

I thought about this aspect of it. surely, if you take a riff repeated through random tonal centres, then play it over constantly shifting meters, or constantly changing rhythmic accents, the harmony itslf isnt changed, it is still transposition as per sixontimber's post... altho to all intents and purposes I expect it sounds pretty darned atonal!

they guy i was discussing with eventually told me that 'the riff' (he posted an example that was clearly in F minor) was atonal all on it's own and that he'd just finished a diploma at the academy of contemporarey music and that he was right. that was when i quit, i also decided against a course at the aforementioned academy!

I'm not sure it's appropriate in this case, but generally, music that is randomly-generated is known as "aleatory" ,rather than atonal....?

aleatoric, as i understand, would mean that the random element in the music is in the performance rather than in the composition. otherwise surely dodecaphonic (beat that for a good scrabble word ;) )/serialist stuff could be described as aleatoric, since they arranged yer chromatic scale in what could be seen to be a random order

...at least that's what i was taught in school. so yeah, you're probably right! :hmm:
Kyle