Is it bad to mark the positions on the side of the fingerboard of the bass? The bass we have at school is already marked, so ever since I started learning I depended on those markings to get my intonation right. Now I'm able to play most of the time without looking, but when it gets to high notes or to unfamiliar positions, I still have to look. Is that bad?

Well, bad is whatever you want to call bad I guess, but....ideally you want playing the bass to be about feeling and hearing rather than seeing. Try playing with your eyes closed and notice the difference in the way you aproach higher passages. I find it easier to play with my eyes closed most of the time because it forces me to focus on the sound more than when they're open. Bob Gollihur has posted several times that when he's playing his best, he BECOMES the bass, as if it is a part of his body (or he a part of it). If the bass was a part of you, would you still need to look to find parts of it?

Originally posted by Chris Fitzgerald
ideally you want playing the bass to be about feeling and hearing rather than seeing. If the bass was a part of you, would you still need to look to find parts of it?

That's true,Chris, But first you have to get to that level of playing.My first teacher put stickers on the fingerboard, just so I could learn where to put my fingers, but six months later, he took them off, so I would start using my ears and start practicing the positions as outlined in the Simandl Method.
Sotto, I cannot stress enough how important it is to learn your entire fingerboard, and know where the notes are in every position. It is just going to take a lot of practice, and looking at markers is not shameful for a beginner, but you have to wean yourself away from that to progress to a higher level of musicianship. Like the infamous quote from Bottesini, "Once I learn where to place my fingers, I shall never again play out of tune" Yeah, I wish...

Returning to upright after a long hiatus, I found that my intonation *improved* when I didn't look at the fingerboard. Another thing to note is to make sure that you understand every change in position that you make. Practice all 24 scales in 3 octaves. Single screen scales are another useful technical exercise.

One thing that can't be emphasized enough: Practice practice practice.

-dh

Something I have done, and you may want to consider if you are playing with a group, is to put a couple stickers on there when formally rehearsing or doing something where you just plain don't want to embarass yourself in front of others, but at the very least ALWAYS practice by yourself without the markers. I don't know where the markers are on your bass, but depending on where they are, they could also affect your playing position, which is bad. Especially when you get higher up on the neck, you shouldn't be looking over at the side of the bass if you are in the correct physical position, and I agree with everyone else, your intonation will be best when you are using your ear more and your eyes less. Lofty goal, but I suggest weaning yourself as outlined above, it seems to have worked for me, although I still have my sloppy moments (heh that's an understatement).

Originally posted by dhosek
Single screen scales are another useful technical exercise.
-dh

Would you mind explaining what you mean by "single screen scales"?

I find that as I become familiar with the positions going up the fingerboard I look at it less and less. Further along, where I'm still in murky territory, I have memorized which notes are on the fingerboard where the neck joins the body, as it's an easy place to "eyeball."
When I played BG, my fretless had line markers where the frets were supposed to be. I found it became a crutch and not only was I looking at the fingerboard a lot but also noticed that my lines didn't flow as well.

Originally posted by lermgalieu
but at the very least ALWAYS practice by yourself without the markers. I don't know where the markers are on your bass, but depending on where they are, they could also affect your playing position, which is bad.

Unfortunately the markers are carved into the neck, made almost necessary by the large number (well not so large) of people in my school that decides to pick it up, then give up after a few sessions. The markers are on the side where the fingerboard joins the neck (where the black meets the wood -- is that correct terminology?). They're actually not very conspicuous.

Originally posted by rablack


Would you mind explaining what you mean by "single screen scales"?

Oops, I meant single string scales. I've been very "off" this morning.

-dh

SottoVoce: Just try not to look at them, practice with your eyes closed when feasible, etc, I guess. And maybe tell someone at your school that in the future if they buy another bass they should just use stickers for beginners, both to keep the instrument pristine and to move players up to more advanced levels when applicable...

I disagree with the use of position markers. Intonation is in the sound, not where you place your fingers. One must be able to judge whether or not he's in tune by the sound, certainly not by where his fingers are. One of the beauties of string ensembles is that they don't have to play in equal tempermant, they are able to play *truly* in tune (the same thing that makes accapella vocal groups sound so good). The doublebass is not a tempered instrument, it shouldn't be learned as one. Learning by position markers teaches the student to place his hand in a fixed position, according to a formula for playing every note equally out of tune, and IMO reinforces *not* having to listen. If your finger's in the right spot, it must be right, regardless of the sound or how it's blending with the ensemble or the other notes you're playing, right? Playing in tune (and being able to shade or color notes through intonation) is part of the art. The exactness of formulaic position markers stands in the way of that. It's like suggesting that art students learn space and dimension or how to paint people by paint-by-numbers.

My teacher also teaches young children. He uses stickers on the fingerboard at first as the player is developing muscle/technique/ear. Eventually the stickers fall off and he doesn't replace them. My point is if you use them briefly it's not a big deal but they are like training wheels on a bike - you gotta take them off eventually. Intonation is definitely all in the ears.

MISTER WHISPER - Your school bass has the marks cut into the neck so it might be a bit hard to ignore, even if you fill the notches. Don't quite know what to suggest other than getting the school to purchase a new high quality instrument (like that's gonna happen in the good ol' US of A, ha)

Its fine to disagree with their use, but as Rablack says, its like training wheels, and I would add that despite what Dave says in his black and white analysis, when I used them I didn't use them as "exact" markers of where I was supposed to play, subtly teaching me to ignore what I heard. They were actually ways for me to start learning some of the muscle memory requisite for DB, showing me roughly where a note would live - I still had to hear the note to get it right, its not like you can stare at freaking stickers while you are trying to play something as mammoth as a double bass. Moreover, I only have ever used a max of 3 stickers up and down the entire fingerboard, and don't use em anymore. I think its common for teachers of many instruments (violin, cello, bass) to use this technique when teaching, and I still haven't been convinced otherwise. But obviously, to each his/her own.

I'm new to DB but have been playing BG for 30 years. I have also played fretless for about 25 years. The key is your ears. Forget your eyes and markers. Feel and hear the note. Hear the note before you play it. Do that and you'll get there.

I learned with the markings as well, on a school instrument, but once I got out of middle school, the high school's basses didn't have them, so I was kind of forced into learning.

Shortly after joining high school I purchased a bass of my own, and I also started to take lessons, my instructor only put on two marks, one for first position, and another so that I could find the harmonics for tuning, @ the high D on the G string.

So, with those, I learned, and since I only had the two, I didn't have to be too terribally dependant upon them, and now I am sticker free.

Originally posted by BassDude24
... my instructor only put on two marks, one for first position, and another so that I could find the harmonics for tuning, @ the high D on the G string.


To be a bit of a contrarian here, it's useful learning how to find the sweet spots for harmonics without visual reference. Assuming that you roughly where you're heading, you can feel the lack of vibrations when you're in the right place for any harmonic.

-dh

I think that, even for those of us who used them at some point, we all agree that you need to learn to play by ear...though I think that is also misleading because, as I said earlier, there is quite a bit of muscle memory to this instrument. Not only do you have to hear that the note is 'right', but you also have to hit it right immediately, rather than sliding into it.

So to those who keep emphasizing the aural aspect of intonation, I don't think I have seen anyone here disagree with you.

Just so everybody knows, Red very abruptly switched from tuning in 4ths to 5ths, and only practiced a couple of days before going right back out to his high profile gigs.

That's a similar motivation to someone beginning upright bass and wanting to play a reconizable tune at a gig without embarassing themselves. Except that the person (me) probably embarassed themselves anyway (heh) whereas I am sure Red didn't. My point is that, as was said before, its a temporary crutch, and I don't think anyone advocates it as a permanent thing, although I find it interesting that Red actually had it inlaid(!).

Anyway, back to SottoVoce's question - I think you will find that if you have been playing double bass for a while, even if you have used little helpers like markings, you will be surprised at how much you have learned about intonation, and how much better your intonation suddenly gets, when you allow yourself to just listen. Its kind of scary because all of the sudden you just have to trust yourself and your ears, but its SO liberating. You can't really be one with your instrument until you give up visual cues. However, I have to say that this is often a HUGE challenge for me because in my main band we get quite loud (Hammond B-3, guitar, and drums) and have a very tight practice space, so I can tend to get a little off due to all the sounds going on, and sometimes feel like I have to fixate on my amp to be able to hit notes right, which can negatively impact my interplay with the band. Also I have noticed that I tend to need a good 15-20 warmup before my intonation is worth a damn at all - I think its more a focus building time period than anything. I hope that eventually goes away, but that is where I am at.

Originally posted by lermgalieu
However, I have to say that this is often a HUGE challenge for me because in my main band we get quite loud (Hammond B-3, guitar, and drums) and have a very tight practice space, so I can tend to get a little off due to all the sounds going on, and sometimes feel like I have to fixate on my amp to be able to hit notes right, which can negatively impact my interplay with the band.

Oh yeah! That's another thing. I play in concert band where I cannot hear myself at all. So I would have to look more. In jazz band I'm not so dependent on the markers.

Incidentally, on days that I wear high heels to school (and to play), my intonation goes off, and that's another time to need the markers occasionally.

Originally posted by SottoVoce
Incidentally, on days that I wear high heels to school (and to play), my intonation goes off, and that's another time to need the markers occasionally.

Either raise the bass higher to accomodate the heels, or take off the shoes.

Actually a good point...I was thinking about this yesterday. At home I tend to play in my socks, while obviously at gigs and at "rehearsal", I play in shoes. My endpin is out as far as it will go, so there are no variations there. Two things - a) do you think that slight height difference can negatively affect my playing, or does this variation actually build your ear and lessen any stubborn muscle memory/inflexibility from development and b) when I put my new longer endpin in, will I be constantly struggling to have it at a constant height from gig to gig? I suppose I could mark it...is that what others do?

Take off the heels, if they're high enough to throw off your intonation they're also rotating your hips and changing your spinal alignment and balance.

Originally posted by lermgalieu
Actually a good point...I was thinking about this yesterday. At home I tend to play in my socks, while obviously at gigs and at "rehearsal", I play in shoes. My endpin is out as far as it will go, so there are no variations there. Two things - a) do you think that slight height difference can negatively affect my playing, or does this variation actually build your ear and lessen any stubborn muscle memory/inflexibility from development and b) when I put my new longer endpin in, will I be constantly struggling to have it at a constant height from gig to gig? I suppose I could mark it...is that what others do?

Well that's extreme, you have to be familiar with your bass. Mark your endpin. My endpin has notches, so it's very easy for me to always raise it to the same height. It's also easy for my to adjust depending on whether I'm where shoes or not, or sitting or standing. But I always try to have to bass at the same height and angle in relation to my body.

If you extend the pin all the way when you're wearing shoes, don't quite extend the pin all the way when your not. Set it 1/2" - 1" shorter. If your new, longer endpin doesn't have notches, mark it. Buy an endpin with notches.

Yeah I have one with notches now, but I have to extend it even beyond the last notch - I guess because its not the longest of endpins and I am fairly tall (6'2"). I bought a new one that's longer, but unfortunately this one aint notched. I will mark it, but I guess until I put it in I am gonna start always playing in socks as the height of my bass in socks feels right, and it feels a little low in shoes.

You should practice under performance conditions. What could be more obvious? ( A young man asked Zoot Sims "How can you play so well when you're stoned?" Zoot answered "I practice stoned.") If you're not going to perform in your socks, don't practice that way.
Endpins without notches are riskier than notched.
The fact that Edgar Meyer does something will never be reason enough for me to do the same. I believe some of what he does is pure show business.

Originally posted by lermgalieu
I will mark it, but I guess until I put it in I am gonna start always playing in socks as the height of my bass in socks feels right, and it feels a little low in shoes.

I know a cat who never where's shoes when he's playing; any gig, anytime of year. And it's not because his endpin isn't long enough. Playing without shoes isn't a big deal, go for it. But
just make sure you've solved any foot odor problems you might have first.

Yeah I'd rather play in socks than play in bad position with shoes. I think that's more obvious than Don's suggestion, which seems to be to opt for the more uncomfortable and spinal wrenching position. I think he has it out for me. Just kidding Don! I am not too worried about getting a non-notched endpin because I basically am not using the notches on the one I have now, so I am used to it - though next time I will heed your advice.

My answer to the original question is: No its not bad at all. if it helps you then its good. Go for it!!

Lerm,

I'm also 6'2", and I had exactly the same problem with the endpin on my old bass. I remember one gig specifically where my intonation was sh*t for the first two sets, and I tried everything to figure out what the problem was...turns out I hadn't taken my regular stool ( a tall one, which has me almost standing) to the gig 'cause I knew they had one there, and with the one there, the bass was sitting too high in relation. I figured this out on the second break, lowered the endpin, and my intonation problems (the ones caused by the height problem, anyway...) were fixed right then and there. I got a new endpin with my new bass - it (endpin) is made by the Bass Cellar, and it not only has notches, but it's so long that Shaq could play the bass if he wanted. But the notches are great, because they're really closely spaced, and each one clicks into position. I just count the clicks...and if I have on my "tall shoes" (hiking boots - coffee house gigs only), I just add an extra click.

There's no law that says you can't cut off the unnecessary length of the pin. I've wondered if the unused length inside in any way absorbed energy that would be better transferred to the wood. I don't know who would know. Maybe that a--hole from the false harmonics thread has an opinion.

Originally posted by Don Higdon
There's no law that says you can't cut off the unnecessary length of the pin. I've wondered if the unused length inside in any way absorbed energy that would be better transferred to the wood. I don't know who would know.

My teacher (Greg Sarchet, principal bass with the Lyric Opera) is of the school of thought that it's best to chop off the excess end pin. He has most of his end pins chopped down to very little and plays with his bass VERY low. In some ways I find it uncomfortable to play on his bass, especially when I'm well up the neck and need to bow close to the bridge, but his bass is so much better than my own that this is by far outweighed by the better quality of sound of his bass (it's an 18th C. Italian bass, IIRC)

I use a device called an Egg pin on my Juzek, and it works great for me. I'm 6 1', but I can adjust it to any height, and any angle I want. It definitely helped my position and intonation. It connects to the existing endpin plug and It attaches and detaches with a twist of an allen wrench.

YANKYEROWN -

Have you happened to notice that we have a moderator now? For the record, he makes that liquid metal guy from T2 look like Beaver Cleaver. How about we quit playing games and assuming idiotic false identities, whaddaya say? I'd say that this is getting old, but it's way past that...this is getting f***ing prehistoric. Drop the moronic alter-ego or get lost.

Or both.

Damn, I guess I missed all the fun. I only saw the first post from the ONANIZER and went on home.

in the background JT is heard saying ... "Move along. Okay people, move along, nothing to see here, it's all over and cleaned up, now move along"

JT,

sorry if I overreacted. What I want to know is, how many of those 14 strings did you need to perform that last smackdown? Or did you take rab's suggestion and use a German bow?

Peace.
:cool:

What the hell did I miss? Is our moderator too quick to bring in the toilet plunger? Is he showing excessive mercy to a dork before we get in our shots? Wha' happened?

Originally posted by Don Higdon
What the hell did I miss? Is our moderator too quick to bring in the toilet plunger? Is he showing excessive mercy to a dork before we get in our shots? Wha' happened?
I'm Tellin', I'm Tellin! ;) It was just the return of Masterbasser.(you know who) He came in and attempted some sarcastic remarks which were promptly dismissed.
No big deal.

Originally posted by nickchalk
I am surprised nobody has talked about Edgar Meyer yet. Mr. Meyer inlaid dots on his bass up and down the fingerboad. I'm not sure how he actually has them placed, maybe like a guitar. Anyway I noticed that when he played during the Grammy's year of two ago. Comments?

My teacher also has some on his bass: One at the octave, one at the fifth and one at the major third (because the low G# is central to so much opera stuff). Maybe one more, I don't remember.

While it can be handy to have markers for occasions like when you have a passage starting at a very high point on the fingerboard, I've found that I just don't have the attention to devote to looking at the fingerboard while I'm playing. I need my eyes to see the music and conductor. Even when I'm playing in a rock or jazz context where there's neither music nor conductor, I find that I don't look at the fingerboard (or fretboard, as the case may be). My fretless BG has fretlines which I generally ignore.

-dh

No, it is not a bad thing to mark the bass.

But DON'T use stickers! Stickers will move around and leave gunk on the board. I have a teaching degree, so I spent some time teaching in grade schools and high schools, and I can vouch for how badly the stickers work. Kids put their finger on a sticker that's moved around and won't adjust - they must be right, 'cause they're on the sticker...@#$#$%^!!!

I use discreet pencil marks. So do my two main teachers, one of whom was principal bass in the LA Phil. I won my job six weeks ago with discreet pencil marks on my bass. Marking the bass is not a bad thing, but STICKERS are a BAD and un-subtle thing.

Use pencil marks.

KPO
Louisville Orchestra

Congratulations on your successful audition, kpo

Lee Mesch, assoc. principal DB with the Met, has inlaid dots in his fingerboard (they were there when he bought the bass). Now, all of his students are asking Arnold Schnitzer, his luthier, to inlay their fingerboards. I have to admit, it looks pretty cool. Who? Me? Are you kidding? Do I look like I'd do that?

Michael Moore was watching Meyer on TV with his wife, a court judge. Seeing the dots, she was indignant. "That's cheating, isn't it?", she said.

SottoVoce I've seen many bassists using marks, you are not going to always play in conditions where you can hear clearly your bass, even more recording with a large ensemble, do whatever you feel comfortable with, I've seem major players using pencil marks in a given situation, in music there's no such a thing as cheating, if you achieve better intonation looking at your fingerboard than a guy that plays with his/hers eyes closed I am pretty sure you got the gig, the marks are only landmarks,the same way you learn how to "feel the neck" with your thumb specially when you get to the D block you can also use your eyes, why not? just don't become a handicap,and remember the most important is your ears, your ears will always be the judge, good luck.

I can relate to where Sotto is coming from. When I bought my DB, it already had semi-permanent markings on it. I feel it was the best idea. It allowed me to transfer previous knowledge from my electric to DB pretty quickly. Because of this, I was able to begin private lessons immediately with somebody who got me working on Simandl. By being able to initially see where the notes were, I could be more certain I knew how they sounded. I found it didn't take long at all before I was playing without the use of the markings. They're still there, but very rarely referred to. Long story longer: I don't think they're a bad idea, so long as they are used as a training tool rather than a crutch.

I play the DB regularly around Boston in jazz ensembles and jamband new-groove stuff. I do have markers on my bass, small dots on the side next to the G and A respectively on the E string, also I have a dot on the octave on front of the fingerboard.

I am not dependant on these markers, but they do act as a means of calibration for when I start playing, occasionally I will play based on the markers - especially when doing extended runs up or down the neck.

I say - "whatever's clever" for finding the notes. Ultimately the listener doesn't care how the notes are found - as long as you and the band sound good.

Projection is a bigger issue to me...

Any student of Linda McKnight found looking at either hand quickly regrets it.

Originally posted by Don Higdon
Any student of Linda McKnight found looking at either hand quickly regrets it.

Well, that's good for the lesson time, but how about in the Audition, or when you're playing Berg?
Tactile memory is of the utmost importance for a string player, yet....

Different teachers will, of course, insist on different things... I personally insist on finding the correct pitch all the time, every time, using all reasonable resources.

Originally posted by kpo
I personally insist on finding the correct pitch all the time, every time, using all reasonable resources.

As does McKnight. Teachers have their own ways of getting you there. As demanding as she can be on any particular facet, I, and others, end up somehow grateful that she was.

Originally posted by Don Higdon


As does McKnight. Teachers have their own ways of getting you there. As demanding as she can be on any particular facet, I, and others, end up somehow grateful that she was.

I wonder if she looked at her hands in her audition?

I had two teachers who were insistent that I not look, and I'm grateful for that. I'm even MORE grateful for my two teachers who admitted that every bass player will do some looking, and one in particular who "allowed" the use of pencil dots on my finger board... and then I won my audition.

I used to insist on my students go by hearing and tactile memory only, now I split it up, and they're doing quite well.

Perhaps the "No Looking" part is a phase that everyone *should* go through at length, but I would never insist on that in the long run.

i guess its cool.... i used to do it but i personally think in the long run like many of you are saying, you need to be able to hear and feel it without looking. plus, what if the lights go out? then your screwed.

I have two comments.

1) Try using white or yellow china marker. It comes off with some elbow grease, and you have to keep re-applying it, and asking yourself if you really need it.

2) Look at Edgar Meyer's bass. Yes, those are inlayed mother of peal position indicators.


If it's good enough for Edgar........


Need I say Meyer? er, More?



With Work

I know this is an old post, but I thought I could add something interesting to the discussion. I have habit (good or bad) to memorize my music, something I find just happens in my efforts learning my music. This tends to let me concentrate more on my intonation, be it glancing at my left hand and listening to my intonation. I am also able to watch the conductor better, and communicate with the drummer more (when I am playing jazz). I am wondering though, are there any bad facets to not paying attention to the actually sheet music by having it memorized, and more on how my music fits in with the ensemble? Mainly, I wonder if it may impare my sight reading abilities as far as my intonation is concerned?

Originally posted by mrjasonpries
I have habit (good or bad) to memorize my music, something I find just happens in my efforts learning my music.

Hmmm . . . "memorization" is one small step away from "forgetting" which is not even a step away from "trainwreck." I'm not saying that there are no tunes I've "memorized" -- Giant Steps,, for instance, did not come easy -- but it's something I try to avoid if I can really learn a piece instead.

As reflected in these old posts:

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=66876&highlight=memorize+internalize

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=30273&highlight=memorize+internalize

Originally posted by mrjasonpries
I have habit (good or bad) to memorize my music, something I find just happens in my efforts learning my music. This tends to let me concentrate more on my intonation,... I am also able to watch the conductor better, and communicate with the drummer more (when I am playing jazz).
I am wondering though, are there any bad facets to not paying attention to the actually sheet music by having it memorized, and more on how my music fits in with the ensemble? Mainly, I wonder if it may impare my sight reading abilities as far as my intonation is concerned?

I can't imagine a "bad facet" to internalizing your music. That should make you quicker to adjust in any situation, and will let you you be more free to make music in any situation. If you happen to be looking at your left hand while playing, cool, as long as you can still be aware of everything going on around you.

I've known a bassist who, unlike Edgar Meyer with the big pearl dots, would use a jewelers drill to mark notes on his fingerboard. Only maybe three up in the thumb positions. The beauty of this is that the holes are so small, you can't see them, but you can feel the rough edges with your fingers. If I felt like I needed markers, I guess this is the way I would go....If you try this, don't forget to not smooth down the edges of the holes.
By the way, I keep my eyes closed most of the time! Being an old Jazzer and knowing MOST all the tunes in the jazz vocabulary, I have no need to open them except for special or conducted endings. Actually, I don't think I could play a solo with my eyes open.:cool:

I have been very tempted to mark my bass on several occasions, but have resisted. My biggest fear is having a huge intro and being off-pitch. So far, I have never missed so far I couldn't slide into the right note in a fairly subtle way. (If I miss, 99 times out of 100 I will be flat) But, if I have the time to warm up for 15 minutes or so, I am usually fine.

I bought Mchildree's Strunal that was posted here not too long ago on behalf of our church. When I finally got around to playing it the other day, I noticed that someone had put pencil marks on the inside of the neck at the 3rd and 5th stops. I don't know if it was Mike or our guy, but I did exactly as I feared I would. I found myself looking at those marks instead of listening.

The truth is, it just doesn't take that long to train your ears to know if you are off pitch.

As for memorizing, I can't help but memorize something if I have played it a few times. I still will track along the music with my eyes though. I don't trust myself that much.

However, if you are in a situation where you can't hear yourself very well, or not sure what the mix will be like, they are very useful. Of course we all prefer to play by ear, it is much more accurate when done correctly. Its just that live, sometimes I need a little help due to a loud guitarist, horn section in my ear, or whatever.

Unfortunately the markers are carved into the neck, ...The markers are on the side where the fingerboard joins the neck (where the black meets the wood -- is that correct terminology?). They're actually not very conspicuous.

A thought: How about a long strip of (smooth) tape covering all the carved markers? Apply very neatly I should think.

It occurs to me that marking the BACK of the neck so that you could feel with your thumb whether or not you were in the right place for, say 3rd position, would be handier than having markings on the fingerboard itself. Has anyone tried something along these lines?

It occurs to me that marking the BACK of the neck so that you could feel with your thumb whether or not you were in the right place for, say 3rd position, would be handier than having markings on the fingerboard itself. Has anyone tried something along these lines?

Considering any little scratch, bump, blip or otherwise on the back of the neck drives me nuts, this would put me in a padded cell in no time.

Maybe this came from Paul Warburton...can't remember anymore...about Red Mitchell putting in some brass knobs on the back of the neck of his bass to find positions. Pictures were even provided as evidence. Search for it and appreciate human ingenuity.

Maybe this came from Paul Warburton...can't remember anymore...about Red Mitchell putting in some brass knobs on the back of the neck of his bass to find positions. Pictures were even provided as evidence. Search for it and appreciate human ingenuity.
Johnny..that pic of Red's Claudot was posted by it's new owner, John Donnelly. Search under John's name.

Maybe this came from Paul Warburton...can't remember anymore...about Red Mitchell putting in some brass knobs on the back of the neck of his bass to find positions. Pictures were even provided as evidence. Search for it and appreciate human ingenuity.
Full disclosure - Red did this when he changed to tuning in fifths.

This is one time when being a mere EB player is actually an asset because the differing levels of fret marking on fretless EBs provides a test bed.

Until recently I played an Fender Jazz Bass model with a lined fingerboard. Then I tried out a Warwick fretless with an unlined board and it seemed that intonation became easier and more accurate. I repeated this experiment on subsequent visits to the music store and every time the result was the same. My intonation cleaned up considerably without the intense visual "aid" of the inlayed fret lines. I bought the Warwick.

Now I must admit that there are still side-dot markers on the fingerboard but I find that it is rare for me even to notice them. I know that this is a bit off to the side of the topic of this thread but I just wanted to contribute my conclusion which is, too much help can hurt you.

Maybe I'm missing something but....I don't really see anyone arguing that lines and/or markers are to be used as replacements to the ears. Isn't the point that markers may be useful if, for example, you need to hit a note clean way up in thumb position and the style of music dictates that it's not desireable to use a device like sliding into the note and/or adding vibrato or some other trick to help you "tune up" the note? I just fail to see the "if you're using markers you're not using your ears" logic. If you've got ears your ears are going to override the markers if necessary, right?

-Scot

A starting B flat on a phrase above the G harmonic on the G string, a Shostakovitch(?), I think, and 8 or 9 basses. Conductor yelled out, "Put a G- D - Marker on it, basses!" Everything went pretty smooth after that. Sometimes it's a good plan.

I already put this in another thread but just in case it doesn't get read there I'll repeat myself.
Maybe I just like the sound of my own voice.

I have a couple of visual marks on the side of my finger board/neck. I really only use them when I am struggling to hear myself.
My responsibility as the bassist is to play in time and in tune, I need to support the rest of my band and if my out of tune note/s throw my singer then I am not doing my job.
My ego doesn't prohibit me from using mechanical means as well as aural means to do my job properly.
Neither does my willingness to use mechanical means diminish the importance of being able to hear that I am in tune(or not).
In the end the better your technique the less you will need to refer to the markings.

I personally think you can do anything you want if it makes you feel better and sound better as long as it doesn't limit you in some other way.
Right on the money.

On one of the basses I used there was a real little bit of white nail polish (smaller than the tip of a pencil) on the side of the neck. It was at half and third position. It really helped me to get accustomed to the bass. When I felt ready I just took a blunt knife, and *gently* scraped it off.

I have three markings. Octave G on the G string, the D above that, and then the High G

I personally think markings show a lot of merit in thumb position, because no one likes to hear a solo out of tune. Just be careful to not mark every internal inbetween, because if you go to an audition and there is no screen, the panel won't be too impressed. Don't use anything permanent; perhaps just a little inlay mark with a pencil.

if it's good enough for the New York Philharmonic, then something tells me it is good enough for the rest of us...

Any student of Linda McKnight found looking at either hand quickly regrets it.

That's odd, she's never said anything about that to me before and I often look at my hands a lot when I play.

if it's good enough for the New York Philharmonic, then something tells me it is good enough for the rest of us...
Who? Did I miss something?

...Actually, I don't think I could play a solo with my eyes open.:cool:Check playing with your eyes open some time. Peer around the band stand and the room. I've found that it does wonders in allowing you to step outside of yourself and really be a third party to the subconcious.

Christ, that sounds esoterical -- but you know what I'm getting at. All part of my studies to be able to attain 'The Zone' at will.

This appears to be an old thread, but I felt like commenting on this subject. And I've been away for a minute from the TalkBass forums. Anyway...There's a big part of bass playing that is aligned with what other artists do. Even what athletes do. We are all joined with performing an act, easy or difficult, and being skillfull at it. In another month or so the Olympics will be in full swing. Ice skaters are not aided by taping a spot on the ice where they will land, to get a jump right. More technically even, they aren't aided by wearing a brace that holds their body in a particular position, for instance, the position that the body is in when a triple axel is performed. That would be dumb, anyway. There is an approach to the jump, a leap, then the correct positioning of the body in the air, and finally the landing and follow-through. Most or all of these elements are valid in bass playing. You can tape the bass, but you can't tape your arm into the proper position to place your hand where the tape is. You can't tape your head in the proper place alongside your instrument. Where are your feet? Better tape them too. There's a place in your bosom that the bass rests. Tape might not work there. Now you'll need a hammer, nails, and 2X4's! Suck in before nailing! Tape works if you've only one note to play. If you have more than one note then many other elements apply. My only trick here is to tap the strings with my left hand on the fingerboard, and with my thumb sticking out off the bass, touch my thumb against my ear. The sound will resonate. Other than this, which is highly inpractical in most situations, my only advice is to practice. Bass playing, like hitting a ball, doing gymnastics, archery (use of tape here could put an eye out), shooting a basketball into a hoop (very difficult at any height-where do you put the tape here?), playing hockey (try taping all over, mummy style), etc.,
is an exacting science.

Good luck,

Ramon Pooser
www.ramonpooser.com

P.S. Happy New Year folks!!!

Check playing with your eyes open some time. Peer around the band stand and the room. I've found that it does wonders in allowing you to step outside of yourself and really be a third party to the subconcious.

Christ, that sounds esoterical -- but you know what I'm getting at. All part of my studies to be able to attain 'The Zone' at will.Ohh man that is freaky. Zone with my eyes open. Feel very weird just thinking about it.

Takes me WAY outside my comfort zone.

Obviously that means I'll need to try it.

:) Outside the comfort zone IS where The Zone is, after all. We all find a lot of safety in our neurosis and tension, etc.

...but I felt like commenting on this subject...In theory, perhaps. In reality? I have to disagree.

Once your hands and ears are at it, mostly any markings will go ignored. Short of a 2 1/2 foot jump or something. Where I would find markings handy is having to hit things cold, and awkward shifts that are so hopelessly exposed that you don't have any sort of opportunity to layer any adjustments musically. There are two or three spots in the show that I just finished where I was really wanting some sort of 'start here-ish'

Kinda like the skaters moving to a particular location on the ice :)

Tradition, which gives us unmarked instruments, can be a real shackle.

Sorry if my Pragma ran over your Dogma :)

Sorry if my Pragma ran over your Dogma :)[/QUOTE]

I don't mind, just don't use duct tape (LOL). Incidently there was nearly an incident at the jam session last week. A bass player played my bass with white tape on his fingertip. It left more gunk on my bass than you can imagine. Needless to say, I was...touched. I had no alcohol with me (is a bass first aid kit no, an ER surgical setup necessary to carry to a gig) so I got a shot of whiskey from the bar. It took a few minutes, but I got it off. This nut (the bass player) then walked to the edge of the stage (the club was packed, and I made them wait for me to clean my instrument) to apologize. Unfortunately he was out of roundhouse range.

Ramon
www.ramonpooser.com

That's as bad as a guy that sat in on mine one time, formed blisters, popped them, then broke his fingers wide open and bled all over my bass. It took a couple of passes (wash, rinse, repeat) with a damp towel to get all of the gore offa my fiddle. The blood on the strings spattered the whole front of the fiddle from the vibration of the strings. Chee-rist.

Hey, just imagine if you'd had a little nick on your hands somewhere. Might have been the first double bass-based exchange of bodily fluids.

Yech.

That's as bad as a guy that sat in on mine one time, formed blisters, popped them, then broke his fingers wide open and bled all over my bass. It took a couple of passes (wash, rinse, repeat) with a damp towel to get all of the gore offa my fiddle. The blood on the strings spattered the whole front of the fiddle from the vibration of the strings. Chee-rist.


Eeewww!

http://members.aol.com/nightdog35/images/smiley_puke.gif


Fixed it for you. :)

On one of the basses I used there was a real little bit of white nail polish (smaller than the tip of a pencil) on the side of the neck. It was at half and third position. It really helped me to get accustomed to the bass. When I felt ready I just took a blunt knife, and *gently* scraped it off.

White-out works well and is easily removeable.

White-out works well and is easily removeable.

The problem is that (at least according to what I've heard) White-Out is carcinogenic. Do you really want your bass to get cancer? :hmm: