Ok the Question is
Although I've got a good knowledge in chords scales etc Im having trouble of playing a flat sound you know playing a out of context licks
I suppose after playing inside licks and phrases after a while I tend to get bored of it after a while'.
Is there any tricks or unknown scales or is it the chromatic (target) sort of approach

Ps I have these scales down ( and still working on them )

Major Minor Melodic minor Harmonic minor all penatonics Blues all chords in all 12 keys

Any Help would be appreciated
Cheers JACE :hyper:

There's no trick. As musicians we have to play what we hear and hear what we play. Anything else is noise in the guise of music.

Listen to folks doing what you want to try. Figure out what they're doing and try it. Sounds short? Work's long.

Im having trouble of playing a flat sound you know playing a out of context licks
I suppose after playing inside licks and phrases after a while I tend to get bored of it after a while'.
Is there any tricks or unknown scales or is it the chromatic (target) sort of approach JACE :hyper:
I don't understand what you think you're saying.

Ditto....Are you a bit confused?
If there were unknown scales, nobody would know 'em. :rollno:

I don't understand what you think you're saying.
Opps my fault perhaps I didnt explain clearly
Take for example Thelinouis Monk the sound that he was able to convey or playing out of key ie ( Say we have a ii-v-i in the key of Bb with each chord lasting a bar each C - F -Bb so instead of playing in the right key I wanted to become familiar with dissonant sounds or simply playing in the wrong key in otherwords
Now I'm starting to confuse myself anyway I hope that makes it clearier

Maybe I should just play my favourite licks in the wrong key to get started I guess
:hmm:

HOLY ****! :scowl: Thelinouis would be turning in his grave.
Don't you belong on the other side?

Is there any tricks or unknown scales or is it the chromatic (target) sort of approach


I agree with what everybody else has said so far; but if we are talking about playing "out" - then I did attend a sort of clinic on this, with Julian Siegel (Sax player), where he was demonstrating some tricks with a piano player.

So - they would take a standard and the pianist played the changes, as he would normally - then Julian demonstrated playing a solo, while he imagined that the chords were moving at either half the speed of the pianist or at twice the speed etc. - or in some places he would just play a turn-around throughout. So, he demonstrated various permutations, where he was audibly "out" - but his solo had a compelling internal logic that made it sound convincing!

I don't know if this is what you meant by "tricks" - but it sounded like a good way to get into, or practice, playing "out" on a solo and make it convincing - until you get to the point where you can make anything sound convincing!! ;)

Don't you belong on the other side?

The problem is that there is no "Music Theory" forum anywhere else - this is the only one on the whole of TalkBass - so if anybody wants to ask about Music Theory, this is the only place, no matter what instrument you play!! ;)

Bruce, Jace's statement about "just learning to play my favorite licks in the wrong key" tells me, among other things, a little about this guy. This statement has nothing to do with musical theory, but you go ahead and amuse yourself.

Bruce, Jace's statement about "just learning to play my favorite licks in the wrong key" tells me, among other things, a little about this guy. This statement has nothing to do with musical theory, but you go ahead and amuse yourself.

Fair enough - I thought that was a jokey riposte - but what "other side" do you think he belongs in, then? :D

One of my favorite Hal Galper sayings (growlings?) of all time is the following from a master class I was part of back in '89:

"Your outside **** is only as good as your inside ****"

The longer I live with that statement, the deeper it gets.

That may be one of the funniest statements I've read here yet...

The important question for you may be, "Why am I bored with my playing?" I suspect it may have more to do with running your "favorite licks" and scales than with not being able to play "out". Do you get bored listening to Miles or Bill Evans or, for that matter, Monk, when they play the changes? As Sam says, maybe you just need to study the music a bit deeper.

Speaking of getting Monk's name wrong, I remember when Monk died, the newscaster said, "Jazz great, Thee-o-lonius Monk has died..."
Good Point Patrick I think by transcribing the greats as you have mentioned I guess I would pick up some outside licks and forgive me of my spelling
Paul Im not sure what you mean by the other side perhaps it means in the BG section if it is then I only put this question in this section because playing outside the changes relates to jazz and what a better way to ask for advice from you guys DB players ( excuse me musicians ) who have a good grasp on Jazz although there are players who play jazz on BG anyway I appreciate all the advice Thanks Guys

on ii v's its cool to do diminished stuff. Like in your example, c to f to Bb, you could play around with C half whole dim or whole half dim, and then let your playing resolve when it gets to I, or Bb.

:hiding: This thread is getting more out as time goes by.

Paul Im not sure what you mean by the other side perhaps it means in the BG section if it is then I only put this question in this section because playing outside the changes relates to jazz and what a better way to ask for advice from you guys DB players ( excuse me musicians ) who have a good grasp on Jazz although there are players who play jazz on BG anyway I appreciate all the advice Thanks Guys

That's perfectly fine, and is what this forum is here for. I think people were just a bit confused by your question at first. You also need to remember that carrying around a huge double bass all the time makes guys get kinda cranky as the years go by...

That's perfectly fine, and is what this forum is here for. I think people were just a bit confused by your question at first. You also need to remember that carrying around a huge double bass all the time makes guys get kinda cranky as the years go by...
What the hell do you mean by that!? :eyebrow:

What the hell do you mean by that!? :eyebrow:

Nothing, SIR! :hiding:










(MACK THE TRUCK - see? See? Paul's been lugging his big @$$ bass around longer than any of us. See what happens?)

All things considered, I'm still a little lost. I'm starting to wonder if the reason I suck so bad is that I don't have any favorite licks.

Okay Jace - easy one for you - take one of your favourite m7 licks that lasts a bar, for example, and a tune with a static chord sequence - lets say it has 4 bars of dm7. So you play a Dm7 lick, the same lick transposed up a M3 to F#7, then up again another M3 to A#7(Bb7) and then up again to Dm7 again. You can do the same trick with any interval that divides the octave equally as long as you've got enough bars to fit it in. The drive of the movement by identical intervals moves it out of key and back logically. If you start to run out of fingerboard going up in M3s go down to the same note which will be a m6th down. (or if you ar going up m3s its down M6s and vice versa) All this is nothing new or that all the good guys here don't know already. I'm not claiming its art but its a start and its in the cliche bag of many a sax player (ok - we play bass but LaFarro started with sax and sax is where you hear pepole doing it most - but even my bass teach encouraged me to do it).

m=minor M=major in the above BTW

Hope this makes sense.

Okay Jace - easy one for you - take one of your favourite m7 licks that lasts a bar, for example, and a tune with a static chord sequence - lets say it has 4 bars of dm7. So you play a Dm7 lick, the same lick transposed up a M3 to F#7, then up again another M3 to A#7(Bb7) and then up again to Dm7 again. You can do the same trick with any interval that divides the octave equally as long as you've got enough bars to fit it in. The drive of the movement by identical intervals moves it out of key and back logically. If you start to run out of fingerboard going up in M3s go down to the same note which will be a m6th down. (or if you ar going up m3s its down M6s and vice versa) All this is nothing new or that all the good guys here don't know already. I'm not claiming its art but its a start and its in the cliche bag of many a sax player (ok - we play bass but LaFarro started with sax and sax is where you hear pepole doing it most - but even my bass teach encouraged me to do it).

m=minor M=major in the above BTW

Hope this makes sense.
Hmmm Nice Kool
I Like it Thanks for sharing Mike Wow you just opened a door in my vocabulary I appreciate this
Hey Paul perhaps you should join us on the other side be a lot easier carrying a BG than a DB ( Just Kidding )

ARGHH.......

Or maybe you could ask Paul to crawl naked through a big pile of broken glass.

Or maybe you could ask Paul to crawl naked through a big pile of broken glass.


Now, that's outside.

Have you ever investigated screwing around with the V7 chord? Try these three quick things:

1) Make the chord alt and play it's respective scale ie. F7alt=Gb melodic minor.
2) Change the V7 to V7(b9) and play diminished.
3) Play the tritone sub of F7=B7 (play B7 with no alterations).

It's also fun to play the Cmin7 as a unaltered F7 and then move into one of these above options over the F7 chord. These aren't huge "outside" leaps, but they are very nice sounds and add a bit of spice to your playing. Hope that's sort of what your asking about.

any music is about tension and release.
playing outside the changes is a useful tool when your trying to build tension.
most (standard) jazz tunes can simply be broken down into tension chords ie. II,IV,V,VII
and release chords ie. I,III,VI
of course some tunes may shift around different key centers
but tension chords are where you can take the most liberties.
when i see a big fat V leading to a tonic chord all notes are fair game as long as i can resolve the line.
playing a big fat E on a beautiful Eb Maj9 will definately draws some strange looks unless, of course, thats what you want.
practice playing V,I in any key for a certain amount of bars a piece(1,2,4) play a line thats active over the V chords and resolve on beat one of the I chord.

Ok here are some ideas for you.. I have taken a few classes on jazz improv and I think you would benefit from learning the way that i did. Very specific, very structured.... Lets start from the beginning with something very basic.. A major 7 chord... You should know that it is built with a root M3 P5 and M7 easy enough. Now you already know how to play inside im assuming so you know that you can use ionian as the default scale. Pretty basic, but it gets the job done.

Now lets see what other scales we can use over a I chord.

How about Lydian. The Lydian scale has the #11 and playing this scale over a I chord is implying the sound of a IV chord and creating a more open sound and giving you another note to start/resolve on. Personally I love resolving to the #11.. it really sounds jazzy

Now what else can we do to make our lines sound a bit more hip over a major 7 chord... how about a lydian augmented chord?

Here we are going to have a raised 5 and a raised 4... This is going to create a bit more tension with the raised 5 so you will have to be careful how you use it. Luckily it is only a half step away from the 6(13) and the P5 so it serves as a great leading tone.

Get band in a box or some other tool where you can have static chords played back to you and mess around with these three scales and see what kind of sounds you can get..

Ok here are some ideas for you.. I have taken a few classes on jazz improv and I think you would benefit from learning the way that i did. Very specific, very structured.....

I'd be careful about saying stuff like this....it might get you into trouble!! ;)

Hhah well I dont really care if anyone knows that I signed up for some specfic jazz classes online from musicdojo.com. They were very helpful to me and the way I learn and I am just trying to pass on some knowledge to someone who is searching.

Hhah well I dont really care if anyone knows that I signed up for some specfic jazz classes online from musicdojo.com. They were very helpful to me and the way I learn and I am just trying to pass on some knowledge to someone who is searching.

That's fine dude
I do use those scales
Thanks anyway though I'm just studying charlie christian at the moment
There's sooooo much to learn I mean I don't think I have enough years in my lifetime to learn everything

Besides I appreciate all the help I got from everybody
Even you Paul :D

All in all... it's really about transcribing the greats... especially those who had playing "outside" down... Parker, Coltrane, Brecker, etc. There's a world to get lost in there.
And about," resolving to a #11, maybe if the chord calls for it. It works much better as a passing tone. Perfect example- Jaco's solo on Havona... and there should end the discussion... Jaco.

I'm just getting to the point, as a rookie bassist, of realizing that I was totally on the right track when I first started playing bass.

I did'nt have a private instructor, so all I ever did was figure out stuff by ear.

Then I went to college for bass, and I started learning to play upright.

My instructor was able to show me how to stand next to the instrument, how to hold the bow, how to properly fret notes, and position my hand, how to take care of the bass, how to pluck the string, how to bow the strings.

SO of course he could show me to play jazz right?

Wrong. There is no way to learn but by listening, listening and listening. And then writing it down and analyzing.

Transcribe! All the cats back in teh day grew up stealing bass licks from duke ellington and ray brown records.

Even Master of the Bass Dave holland started out just stealing licks from Ray Brown records (who grew up without bass instruction and stealing licks from Blanton).

That's what you've gotta do. Just steal licks, and then learn to use your music theory skills to analyze what they are doing, and then use it in all keys.

This means also figuring out what the horns are doing, and what the piano is playing.

If you are going to be a good musician, you need to be listening to everybody else in the band to make the best note and rhythmic choices anyways, so work work work on listening listening listening.

If you really really like Monk, go and transcribe his solos on piano, and figure out what he is doing. ALso learn to play all the heads you can to his tunes, and then see how those function over the basslines.

If you want to share the knowlege you come acrossed and post in on the board, I'm sure people would delight in your posting it.

Platts - I admire your enthusiasm, but you're wrong about Ray.The only reason cats like Ray and George Duvivier and Milt Hinton et al weren't working in symphonies is because no black man was ever going to get hired by a symphony at the tim ethey started playing. But Ray in particular continued to study legit technique (with Herbert Rheinsagen{check my spelling?}) late into his career. Milt studied violin privately as a child and bass with legit players wherever he could out on the road.

The broad point is - yes, it's all about HEARING WITH CLARITY AND INTENT. But that's just as true for Itzak perlman as it is for Clifford Brown. If you don't think the cats like Horowitz and Perlman and DuPre are HEARING what they are playing, dig a little deeper.

Platts - I admire your enthusiasm, but you're wrong about Ray.The only reason cats like Ray and George Duvivier and Milt Hinton et al weren't working in symphonies is because no black man was ever going to get hired by a symphony at the time they started playing.

You don't think they've allways been as good as they are on those recordings do you?

Yes, Ray brown and many others did study "legit technique"

I heard this interview with him on NPR and he was talking about how when he started playing, he was just a piano student, and he learned music theory and whatnot in school, but he never had a private bass teacher for quite a few years. He learned to play bass in his school band becuase there were a bunch of piano players and no bass players. He knew how to read from playing piano, but he learned to play jazz by copying everything he could from Blanton's recordings.

Dave Holland started out with no private instructor either. He started out playing electric, and then switched to Upright after he heard (I forget who) playing. Then he went out and bought a really crappy plywood bass for like $800 and copied everything he could off of ray brown's recordings.
After he did that he started taking "legit" lessons.

Learning to play the bass and learning to make music are two very different things.

Sigh.

Platt, honey, relax. It's great that you heard an interview with Ray Brown on the radio. I've been in NYC since you were 4 years old and have had a chance to actually talk with some of these guys or talk with guys that came up playing with these guys. They tend to talk about what they are working on, and what most of them are/have been/and in many cases started out doing was working with teachers. In some cases those teachers were other, more experienced musicians in the bands they were working in. In a lot of cases, like Milt, on the road with Cab he was grabbing lessons with whatever legit player would talk to him in whatever town they were in.

You don't think they've allways been as good as they are on those recordings do you?

Yes. Precisely. That's why I said exactly that.
Sigh.

Learning to play the bass and learning to make music are two very different things. Yes they are. But you can learn to make music by playing the bass. Or piano. Or (shudder) banjo. You can also learn where to put your fingers on anything in the correct time frame so that something resembling music comes out. That's where section players come from. ahem.
The reason that Ray et al explore "legit" physical approach to the instrument or harmony/counterpoint etc. is because AT SOME POINT they experienced the instrument (or their conception/understanding) as an impediment to getting to the music inside them. And so whether that meant studying with Rheinsagen or with Boulanger, that's what they did.

What point are you trying to get to here? Yes there are a lot of diverse skill sets necessary to improvising meaningful music. One of those skill sets involves transcending the physical impediment of strings under tension on a big wood box. Are you suggesting that there are skill sets that can be left out?

Dave Holland started out with no private instructor either. He started out playing electric, and then switched to Upright after he heard (I forget who) playing. Then he went out and bought a really crappy plywood bass for like $800 and copied everything he could off of ray brown's recordings.
After he did that he started taking "legit" lessons.

Dave Holland studied double bass with the principle bass player in the London Philarmonic (James E. Merritt), and was at Guildhall (one of the most respected classical music schools in England) by the time he was 18. Yes, he may not have had a teacher from day 1, very few people do, but he was quickly studying at a very high level with very serious teachers, and playing with orchestras as well as several of the best jazz musicians in London.

It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing.

It ain't naught but trash, if you ain't got my cash...

I don't care if it's in or out, whatever...grab a stick and beat on a garbage can, I could give a crap, but just please make some music.

Also, please don't associate the word "swing" with a certain type of music. I don't care what it is, but it has to swing. String quartets swing. Bluegrass swings. Completely free, out of time music, still swings...etc etc, if you catch my drift. Swing as in makes you want to move your nether regions without even thinking about it.

You're compleatly missing the point. What I said was in responce to what sombody else had posted, which was they wanted to know about cheap tricks in order to play out.

There are no cheap tricks. You have to transcribe and figure out what they are doing on your own, or find what other people have analyzed and learn to apply those sounds in a context.

I don't care who studied with who. They didn't get to be great musicians by studying technique, they got to be great musicians by listening and processing what they heard. They got to be great bassists by studying bass. They got to be great musicians by studying MUSIC.

A person can study with, I don't know, edgar meyer, for the rest of their life, and learn all the legit playing in teh world, study all the technique they want, and it will get them nowhere.

yes, the bass is an awkward instrument, and yes knowing how to play it is absoloutly key in getting your musical ideas to speak on bass. HOWEVER, what my original point was: IF YOU HAVE NOTHING TO SAY, IT DOESN'T MATTER.

No, there are no skill sets that can be left out. But if you want to know how to play out, it's not even a question of technique, it's a question of theory knowlege and musicianship.

And thanks for talking down to me by the way.


Platt, honey, relax. It's great that you heard an interview with Ray Brown on the radio. I've been in NYC since you were 4 years old and have had a chance to actually talk with some of these guys or talk with guys that came up playing with these guys. They tend to talk about what they are working on, and what most of them are/have been/and in many cases started out doing was working with teachers. In some cases those teachers were other, more experienced musicians in the bands they were working in. In a lot of cases, like Milt, on the road with Cab he was grabbing lessons with whatever legit player would talk to him in whatever town they were in.

What point are you trying to get to here? Yes there are a lot of diverse skill sets necessary to improvising meaningful music. One of those skill sets involves transcending the physical impediment of strings under tension on a big wood box. Are you suggesting that there are skill sets that can be left out?

Two things: 1) Playing "out" is not a matter of tricks, this is has been stated several times, but to add to this one can play "out" without actually playing a single note that is out of a diatonic scale. You can play all sorts of wierd sounding stuff with just your standard scale as long as you don't play straight triads or whatever. In addition to this, you have to be able to hear the "out" stuff before you play it or it will sound like garbage.
2) I would like to disagree with those who said that transcribing is the way to grow as a musician. It is a tool, just like theory, but it can lead to the same problems as theory, or other tricks. More important (I think) is to find your own voice, to just play. (I also think that listening to music and doing ear training will suffice). One should also be careful when transcribing solos or whatnot from other instruments, as far too many bass players have tried to sound like horns, and we can't do what they do, but the inverse is also true. Anyway, transcribing is a good tool definately but one must add themselves into the mix; for example if you transcribe or learn a song then improvise your own solos in addition to, or instead of, the origional solos, or maybe do a different arrangement.

2) I would like to disagree with those who said that transcribing is the way to grow as a musician.

I think we're splitting hairs now. Transcribing and listening are absoloutly the way to grow as a musician. Listening lets you know what sounds cool, and what sounds differnt.

If you don't know the language that you don't want to sound like, then you won't know what it is that you want to sound differnt from.

Also, transcribing doesn't mean just bebop players or whatever. I find transcrbing and score studying are the only things that have helped me grow as a musician. Transcribe tunes by teh Band Stereolab, for instance. Off their albums Dots and Loops and "The Groop plays cobra phases in the milky night" both have TONS of great ideas in there, which you can build on.

And I think that's the key as well... Take all the voices that you are hearing and funnel them down out of your own mind.

Like Mingus is totally a mix of Duke Ellington and Shonberg.
Or Miles davis is a mix of the blues and bebop stuff that he grew up playing, and Ravel & Debussy. (and of course flamanco music, a la sketches of spain)

You take the music that is boiling around in your soul, you pull from all these differnt places, or make a point to avoid certain sounds, and that's your sound.

And thanks for talking down to me by the way.

I exist but to serve.

Maybe you could tell us who or what "Shonberg" is then...? ;)

I hear a huge number of influences in Mingus's music - but if it can be summed in that one word - then it would make things so much easier.... :D

If you don't know the language that you don't want to sound like, then you won't know what it is that you want to sound differnt from.



Spoken like a true Kentuckian. :D

I think we're splitting hairs now. Transcribing and listening are absoloutly the way to grow as a musician. Listening lets you know what sounds cool, and what sounds differnt.
....
You take the music that is boiling around in your soul, you pull from all these differnt places, or make a point to avoid certain sounds, and that's your sound.
Sorry to be splitting hairs, but I just think that when people just copy their favorite licks off of their favorite players then that can lead to major problems. (By the way I didn't just mean horn players as the only thing one will transcribe, that was just one example). I know this is not what you are advocating, what I've been saying is more of a warning to those who might misunderstand you. All I meant to say was that while its good to transcribe stuff from the greats you must make it your own or it will sound like garbage, and this is not the ONLY way. Anyway, I did not mean to attack you, (though the "I would like to disagree with..." probably didn't help).