OK, I was starting to do this in my school bass lessons, but then I got expelled. It's pretty complex for me to take in, so can someone help? I'm doing this as part of my grade 6 work, but it's all very complex. Can someone justl ay out some simple rules?

Do a search for "Circle of Fifths", or "Cycle of Fifths". Google it, and do it on here. Also try www.cyberfretbass.com (http://www.cyberfretbass.com) and look for the same thing. You should find what you need to know pretty quickly.

When you've asked for advice in the past, you've scorned and derided the advice given. Why should we bother?
Because we're a community that's supposed to help its members, not a group of vindictive pricks.

I wish I could help you with this question, but my music theory is pretty weak. I have a vague grasp on it, but to teach somebody else my meager knowledge incorrectly would be more problematic than beneficial.

I would suggest a few sites to browse.

Bassically.net
Mel Bay's site
Gary Willis' site.
and Google searches for "music theory", "musical keys", etc.


Hope that helps.

Ok kids,

I've edited the thread. This thread is about Nick's problem with key sigs, not about Nick's behavior at TB. This is GI, not Off Topic. If you can't add anything useful to this thread don't post.


Chris A. :rolleyes: :bassist:

Nick -- I found a link and e-mailed it.

When you have knowledge of the basic cycle of fifths theory, what I do is just listen to the song, and play scales in my head. If the notes of the scale in your head sound like they would sound right in the song, then there is a 99% chance you're right. Like for example "By The Way" by RHCP (since you like that song so much), just listen to the main funky riff. I know it's in D, and I know that the next 3 notes in the riff are C, D and F. That is characteristic of the D minor scale. With that knowledge, I play the D Dorian, Phrygian and Aeolian scales in my head, hearing the separate notes of each. By that time, you'll realize that riff is in the Aeolian (natural minor) mode. This process usually takes a couple seconds in a simple song like BTW.

Thanks for the help guys, this is ceertainly pretty hard to take in. I looked on the webpage that Govithoy sent me, and it makes it a little clearer, but I don't understand the bit about the key signature being found by the second from last flat or something or other. What's that about then?

Ok kids,

I've edited the thread. This thread is about Nick's problem with key sigs, not about Nick's behavior at TB. This is GI, not Off Topic. If you can't add anything useful to this thread don't post.



Of course you're right - but anybody who asks for help - because they got expelled (!!!) - is certainly going to make you wonder whether it is worth replying...:hmm:

Of course you're right - but anybody who asks for help - because they got expelled (!!!) - is certainly going to make you wonder whether it is worth replying...:hmm:

He asked for help, that should be reason enough to help him. What do the circumstances matter. :confused:

If you had a question that I could answer, I wouldn't hesitate to try and help; regardless.

Why is it that anyone who got expelled is immediately wrong and bad and should be ignored? Don't you veer think the school might have been wrong? By not providing me with necessary support.

He asked for help, that should be reason enough to help him. What do the circumstances matter. :confused:


Why mention it in the first place then...:hmm:.. that's what I was saying...

Also - this isn't HelpBass - this is TalkBass - the idea to me is to talk about bass - nowhere does it say that we sign up to help people, by becoming members.

Anyway - as they say - you can only really help yourself - no matter how much people write here - if somebody is not willing to put in the practice time, then it is all for nothing....:hmm:

Why mention it in the first place then...:hmm:.. that's what I was saying...

Also - this isn't HelpBass - this is TalkBass - the idea to me is to talk about bass - nowhere does it say that we sign up to help people, by becoming members.

Anyway - as they say - you can only really help yourself - no matter how much people write here - if somebody is not willing to put in the practice time, then it is all for nothing....:hmm:


I would agree with you if he posted in Off Topic or Misc, but since it was posted in General Instruction I think he wanted help not a smart remark.

I look at it this way, if somebody asks a question I know at least a partial answer to, I will help them to the best of my ability. Poking fun at the poster accomplishes nothing, the question isn't adressed because you are to busy being smug.

I agree with helping yourself, but some people learn best through instruction. I find music fun and enjoy teaching my knowledge as much as I enjoy learning new things. It sucks that somebody asks a question and instead of just helping him you go out of your way to belittle him.



I'm done, that is all I have to say in response to your posts. I have read some of your page-long pissing contests with people and I am not about to get caught up in one.

Here is some basic info regarding key signatures and their construction:

http://www.teoria.com/reference/scales/05.htm

Bruce, what value have you added to this thread at all with your rant? If you don't care or don't want to help, why waste the time posting?

OK, I was starting to do this in my school bass lessons, but then I got expelled.You have to admit that this particular sentence does raise a question or two...

But whatever.

You have to admit that this particular sentence does raise a question or two...


Exactly.....:hmm:

What question?

Nick: all of the info out there is great and you should get into studying it as soon as you can, but the quickest way to get started at it (at least it was for me) is either playing along with records or playing with musicians who are much better than you (it really ups your learning curve).

I'm going to tailor this answer specifically to you, since you've made it pretty clear what type of music you play.
I imagine most of what you play will be rock/rock-related material. The majority of the rock stuff out there on the radio is in one key. This makes it pretty simple to start. So how do you find the one key? Listen to how the song sounds-most popular music is played in major or minor keys. Simple way to know the difference between them is that major tends to sound "happy" (the major scale played backward is the first phrase of "Joy To The World") and minor keys sound "darker," or more like rock or metal tunes, which I've found are usually played in minor keys. So to begin with, you have to learn a simple major fingering pattern (like Ionian) and a minor fingering pattern (like Aeolian). Most rock songs use a natural minor patern like the Aeolian which pentatonics can be easily played over. So learn this pattern to start with:
G
D--------------1-3
A--------1-3-4
E--1-3-4
There are many ways to finger a natural minor, but this is a simple one to begin with. If you look at how the notes are picked, they follow a pattern. This is a pattern of whole step/half step/whole step/whole step/half step/whole step/whole step (a half step is going from one fret to the next like from the 5th fret of the E string to the 6th fret of the E string, and a whole step is going from one fret to two up, like from the 5th fret of the E string to the 7th fret of the E string). This pattern repeats itself across the fretboard-try to play it all on one string. This natural minor is also part of the major scale (it's the sixth mode if that means anything to you), so you can keep following this pattern into all the derivations of a key if you like.

Now to get to the point of finding the key, listen for the root note. If you think the song is minor and you think you know the root note, play the pattern I showed you. Do all the notes seem to 'fit in'? Do the notes fit with all the chords? If so, then chances are you're in the right key. Do some of the notes sound off? Then you might have the wrong root note. Find one note that you KNOW is in that song, then place that note somewhere in that fingering pattern I showed you. Try it in one spot and play all the other notes in the pattern, and keep trying it until all the other notes sound like they fit in. Your best bet is to listen for the root note though, and play off of that.

Keep in mind that this is an extremely simplified answer, but I believe the idea behind your question was so that you can listen to a song for a moment and then be able to figure out which key it's in. If that's not the case, say so and I'll help more if I can.

Ok, can we try summit i know off by heart, How You Remind Me by Nickelback? The notes are, C, F, Bb, Eb. What key would that be in? 2 flats, so erm, erm erm, I can't remember, typical.

Bruce, what value have you added to this thread at all with your rant? If you don't care or don't want to help, why waste the time posting?

Well I think it's worth pointing out that, if I had been expelled, then I wouldn't be very proud of that fact and I certainly wouldn't be publicising it all over the internet and then expecting people to help me? :hmm:

Ok, can we try summit i know off by heart, How You Remind Me by Nickelback? The notes are, C, F, Bb, Eb. What key would that be in? 2 flats, so erm, erm erm, I can't remember, typical.

Not C, F, Bb, Eb, but:

Cm (played as Csus2, but the scale is C minor)
F
Bb
Eb

So the key is Cm. Notice how the b7 of Bm is Bb, which is the V of the relative major, Eb.

Hmmm yah....interesting. So if I was to get a guitarist to put a solo to that osng, would it be in the key of Cmajor?

Hmmm yah....interesting. So if I was to get a guitarist to put a solo to that osng, would it be in the key of Cmajor?


No, he would solo in C minor (Cm stands for C minor). One of the good things about playing in minor keys is that there aren't really avoid notes like there are in major keys. If the song was in C major, he would have to pay more attention to the chord changes when he solos so he wouldn't hit "off" notes, but with minors it can be a little more key-oriented than chord-oriented.

Nice....perhaps my band can do HYRM, but turn it into a big break down solo fest in the middle, then bring it all back together.....that'd be pretty nice. Talking of soloing, me and the drummer in my band did some really bluesy jamming the other day....I found improvising to a Blues Type beat really easy, and found I could do all sorts of little things that I can;t normally do in a band setting.

No, he would solo in C minor (Cm stands for C minor). One of the good things about playing in minor keys is that there aren't really avoid notes like there are in major keys. If the song was in C major, he would have to pay more attention to the chord changes when he solos so he wouldn't hit "off" notes, but with minors it can be a little more key-oriented than chord-oriented.

There's some truth to this, but it is not a steadfast rule by any means. For example if the chord is a C major or C7, there's no reason why you can't play a C minor scale over it. This causes tension. It's tension and resolution that makes a solo interesting. For example, say you're jamming on a C major chord. You can play C major stuff over it, and to create some tension you can play a C minor scale, and then resolve by going back to a C major scale.

The chord is a good indicator of what you can solo over it, but it shouldn't limit you either.

Well I think it's worth pointing out that, if I had been expelled, then I wouldn't be very proud of that fact and I certainly wouldn't be publicising it all over the internet and then expecting people to help me? :hmm:

Worth pointing out to who?

Why would anyone care what you would do in this situation given that you arn't the one asking or answering the question. Therefore, what have you added other than unecessary negativity?

Its hostile and completely unhelpful responses that keep "newbies" from asking questions. I realise that you dont think of this place as "helpbass", but if you dont want to help, why bother reading and responding to the thread at all?

:hmm: indeed

Worth pointing out to who?

Why would anyone care what you would do in this situation given that you arn't the one asking or answering the question. Therefore, what have you added other than unecessary negativity?

Its hostile and completely unhelpful responses that keep "newbies" from asking questions. I realise that you dont think of this place as "helpbass", but if you dont want to help, why bother reading and responding to the thread at all?

:hmm: indeed

^He has a point.

I've reformatted the discussion we were having for simplicity. It might be helpful if people don't jump in with suggestions (yeah, I know, this is a public forum)...

OK, I was starting to do this in my school bass lessons, but then I got expelled. It's pretty complex for me to take in, so can someone help? I'm doing this as part of my grade 6 work, but it's all very complex. Can someone justl ay out some simple rules?

You're confusing me. I don;t udnerstand all this 'key' stuff. I never have. What does KEY actually mean? What is KEY? How do you find something's key? I'm confused.

Nick, let's take this in a few steps...

A key is just a bunch of notes that work well together to make tunes. Play a major scale starting on, say, a G. All those notes are all in the key of G major. Play a major scale starting on C. Those notes are all in the key of C major.

Compare the notes that are in G major with the notes that are in C major. Most of them are the same, one is different... can you figure out which one that is?

+2 +2 +1 +2 +2 +2 +1
G A B C D E F# G

+2 +2 +1 +2 +2 +2 +1
C D E F G A B C

TA DA!

Good.

When you read standard notation, at the beginning of each stave, you'll see first of all a bar line, then a clef (usually a bass clef for us... that's the thing that looks like a back to front C with two dots after it), then the key signature. On the first stave you'll also see the time signature.

The key signature will usually have either sharps (#), flats (b) or neither in it. The key signature gives you an indication of what key you're in:

If it has neither, it's easy... you're either in C major or its relative minor, A minor.

If it has one sharp, as you've figured out, you'll be in G major or its relative minor, E minor.

Got that so far?

It's starting to make sense. I havent been taught how to work minors out yet(I'm gonna be getting taught), but jsut not yet.

Okay Nick, we'll stick to major keys for the moment. How about writing out the notes in the major scales starting from F, Bb, Eb, D and A?

O go on then:
F G A A# C D E F

Bb C D D# F G A Bb

Eb F G A B C D D#

D E F# G A B D# D

A B D# D E F# G# A

O go on then:
F G A A# C D E F

Bb C D D# F G A Bb

Eb F G A B C D D#

D E F# G A B D# D

A B D# D E F# G# A

That's an okay start. You've essentially got the notes right in the first two, you've followed your +2 +2 +1 +2 +2 +2 +1 rule.

However, we have a rule we have to follow here that says we can't have two notes with the same letter name. You can't mix sharps naturals and flats. For example, if you've already got an "A", you can't follow it with an "A#". The note becomes "Bb"

So if you're writing out the notes in F major, instead of...

F G A A# C D E F

you have...

F G A Bb C D E F = 1 flat.

Likewise, for Bb major, you should have...

Bb C D Eb F G A Bb = 2 flats

Your Eb major is a bit iffy though...

Eb F G A B C D D#

That's +2, +2, +2, +2, +1, +2, +1

Your +2 +2 +1 +2 +2 +2 +1 should give:

Eb F G Ab Bb C D Eb = 3 flats

For D major, you had...

D E F# G A B D# D

Which should be...

D E F# G A B C# D = 2 sharps

And your A major you have...

A B D# D E F# G# A

Which should be...

A B C# D E F# G# A

(I'm guessing the last two were just typos)

So far, you've got

Eb major = 3 flats
Bb major = 2 flats
F major = 1 flat
C major = 0 flats/sharps
G major = 1 sharp
D major = 2 sharps
A major = 3 sharps

Does this make sense so far?

Yes, I knew I would have to mess up somewhere.

Yes, I knew I would have to mess up somewhere.

That's cool. We've got...

Eb major = 3 flats
Bb major = 2 flats
F major = 1 flat
C major = 0 flats/sharps
G major = 1 sharp
D major = 2 sharps
A major = 3 sharps

That stuff can be hard to remember, luckily you don't have to straight away. There's an easier way.

You know about intervals? Like D is the major second of C, E is the major third of C, etc.?

Try figuring out the intervals between Eb and Bb; Bb and F; F and C; C and G; G and D; and D and A (hint: they're all the same). If you can't work out the technical term, the number of frets between the notes will do (like you did for working out the scales above)

Eb-Bb=Interval of 7, right?
Bb-F=Interval of 7, right?
Wehn I say interval of 7, I mean there's 7 frets, is this the correct way to work out intervals?

Eb-Bb=Interval of 7, right?
Bb-F=Interval of 7, right?
Wehn I say interval of 7, I mean there's 7 frets, is this the correct way to work out intervals?

No. Here's an easy way to think about it. Picture a C major scale, the pattern being:
G--------------------A-B-C
D------------- E-F-G
A---------C-D
E----
And you would finger this 2-4, 1-2-4, 1-3-4.
Intervals are the distances between the steps of the scale. So starting at C, a major seventh interval would be seven steps between C and the note seven steps up from it. So if we look at the scale in terms of numbers, it looks like this:
G-------------6-7-8
D------3-4-5
A--1-2
E
So the major 7th interval of C is B. A minor seventh (not a major) which is also the seventh used in Dominant seventh chords is a half-step down from that, which would be Bb, so if you see something that just says 'seventh' and not 'major seventh', you can assume it's the minor seventh.

So by going by this guideline, Eb-Bb is an interval of 5, and Bb-F is an interval of 5 as well, commonly called a "fifth."

That's just confusing.

That's just confusing.

:D
Okay, here's the simplest way I can think of to explain intervals. Think of a staircase-a staircase with eight steps. Each step has a letter on it. The first step is C and the eighth step is C an octave higher, and all the other steps inbetween are the rest of the notes in a C major scale.
So the steps up say C, D, E, F, G, A, B, and C. Get it? An interval would be how many stairs are in given distance between one stair and another. So from the bottom C stair to the F stair, there are 4 steps-C, D, E, and F. That makes F a fourth (interval of 4). From the D step to the high C step there are seven steps- D, E, F, G, A, B, and C, so from D to the higher C is a major 7th interval. From low C to high C there are eight steps, which is an octave.

Now it gets more complex than that-like minor and augmented intervals (which would make you go to stairs other than the C,D,E,F,G,A,B, and C ones), but that's a way to start looking at them. The links some of the guys have provided have good interval training programs-study them a bit and it will make more sense.

Eb-Bb=Interval of 7, right?
Bb-F=Interval of 7, right?
Wehn I say interval of 7, I mean there's 7 frets, is this the correct way to work out intervals?

That's good.

Intervals are fixed pitch distances... you can think of them in terms of numbers of semitones, which is the posh way of saying numbers of frets (it's also the more correct way).

The way to look at them is to think of them in terms of a scale. Like your +2 +2 +1 +2 +2 +2 +1 major scale rule.

2 semitones (frets) is a major second (+2)
4 semitones is a major third (+2 +2)
5 semitones is a perfect fourth (+2 +2 +1)
7 semitones is a perfect fifth (+2 +2 +1 +2)
9 semitones is a major sixth (+2 +2 +1 +2 +2)
11 semitones is a major seventh (+2 +2 +1 +2 +2 +2)
12 semitones is an octave (+2 +2 +1 +2 +2 +2 +1)

So the magic interval for us is the perfect fifth. We're just going to call it a fifth (we'll drop the "perfect" for now)

The order in which the keys come is determined by something called the "cycle of fifths". It goes like this:

Cb major = 7 flats
Gb major = 6 flats (Gb is a fifth up from Cb)
Db major = 5 flats (Db is a fifth up from Gb, etc.)
Ab major = 4 flats
Eb major = 3 flats
Bb major = 2 flats
F major = 1 flat
C major = no sharps or flats
G major = 1 sharp
D major = 2 sharps
A major = 3 sharps
E major = 4 sharps
B major = 5 sharps
F# major = 6 sharps
C# major = 7 sharps

Which sharps and flats are in which keys are also determined by the cycle of fifths

1 sharp = F#
2 sharps = F#, C# (C# is a fifth up from F#, etc.)
3 sharps = F#, C#, G#
4 sharps = F#, C#, G#, D#
5 sharps = F#, C#, G#, D#, A#
6 sharps = F#, C#, G#, D#, A#, E#
7 sharps = F#, C#, G#, D#, A#, E#, B#

1 flat = Bb
2 flats = Bb, Eb (Eb is a fifth down from Bb, etc.)
3 flats = Bb, Eb, Ab
4 flats = Bb, Eb, Ab, Db
5 flats = Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb
6 flats = Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb, Cb
7 flats = Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb, Cb, Fb

Have you got that so far? (You don't have to remember them at this point)

I get it now. Thanks guys. I have done all this stuff very early on, but when you've not had a bass lesson for 6th months and have had your bass books nicked by some girl who was using you to teach her bass, there's not much I can do to remember stuff.

I get it now. Thanks guys. I have done all this stuff very early on, but when you've not had a bass lesson for 6th months and have had your bass books nicked by some girl who was using you to teach her bass, there's not much I can do to remember stuff.

Okay. You understand some of the theory now. You need a fair bit more than this for grade six though. The stuff we've gone through so far I'd expect from someone at grade three or four.

The easy way to remember the cycle of fifths is to use a mnemonic device. That sounds painful, but it's just an easy to remember phrase...

The one I use is a dumb phrase I learned when I was eight years old:

Father
Charles
Goes
Down
And
Ends
Battle

Using this, it's easy to remember the order that sharps and flats come. If you know there's three sharps, you know they're going to be F#, C# and G# (Father Charles Goes...). For flats, say the phrase backwards. If there's five flats, you know they're going to be Bb, Eb, Ab, Db and Gb (Battle Ends And Down Goes...)

To remember the number of sharps or flats in any given key, you just have to remember that C major has no sharps or flats and start from the next one. For example, if you wanted to figure out how many sharps were in E major, you'd count off "Goes Down And Ends" = four sharps.

Have you got that?