I have an audition with a retro prog group(Yes, Gentlegiant 70's style)
so i need to get my odd meter internal clock going again. Might be a silly question but how do you guys count odd meter's while playing a tune that has a lot of space? Also how do you handle odd meter jams ?

I got into the habit of counting time that i was not playing, so if i had a tune in 11/8 and played 8th notes on
1,2 i would count the rest
123,123,123

Any better methods you may have out, please inform :hiding:

There is a good book on this subject you may want to pickup. It's called "Odd Meter Bassics" by Dino Monoxelos. It's one of the Musician's Institute series published by Hal Leonard. It goes through all of the common odd time meters.

All the best,
Tim

Count 11/8 as 5-and-a-half beats.

So go: 1....2....3....4....5..1....2....3....4....5

You get the idea.

I guess it must be a personal thing, some things will work easier for some folk than others... the idea of couting 5.5 beats is too much for my tiny brain that's for sure.

Anyway, I think it depends on the groove of the piece of music, if it feels like a bar of 5 and two bars of 3, then count it that way.. if it feels like 3 bars of 3 plus two beats, count it that way.

That odd meter basics book is good actually... it says you should clap all the excercises from the notation before your play the, it's hard work!! :)

Thanks for the info guys, ill keep my eyes peeled for the book.

Don't see what's so hard about counting 5.5, etc.

Whenever it has an 8 in it, like 7/8 or 11/8, count it in half.

Yes it's easy if it's a odd meter tune easy to feel, for example like soundgardens outshined in 7 Feels right.

if it's a compound meter with a drum sequence that feel's very odd like a broken up line 123-12345-123 etc... It is not so easy to count straight through.
So thought i would get the odd meter experts advice here on TB

Don't count - just get into the groove. There must be some specific reason that the song you're playing is in 11/8. something like a melody, the drums or a bass groove.So listen to the drums and pick up what he's doing or make up a groove/pattern yourself. You may need to count at first, but as soon as you have the groove then don't count it anymore. The music is either gonna sound like you're counting or groovin' :)

Don't see what's so hard about counting 5.5, etc.

Whenever it has an 8 in it, like 7/8 or 11/8, count it in half.

I know what you mean, it helps me settle into a groove if I feel it at half time... but, to me, feeling 5.5 beats is no easier than feeling 11 beats, I think it's probably harder

Most people count they rhythm they tap their feet to, I dont think many people would find it helpful to tap their foot 5.5 times to a bar. By counting 1/2 beats you would potentially cut an upbeat/ down beat in half, I dont see any logic in counting against the groove unless the downbeat is tied over the bar line.

To me, the easiest way seems to break the bar into groups of beats that you can feel easier relative to the piece of music. We can all play in 3 and 4 easy enough so why not find a way to group the groove, meldoy or changes into meters that are more easy.

Don't see what's so hard about counting 5.5, etc.

Whenever it has an 8 in it, like 7/8 or 11/8, count it in half.
This has reliably worked for me. Seems tough when you talk about it, but it's easier in practice (relatively of course).

Straitjacket (by my band, The Pyrotones)

http://herculeaneffort.adventuredevelopers.com/straitjacket.mp3

Intro is in 11/8 and [A] section is in 7/8.

Groovin tune Geoff. :bassist:

That's where counting in half REALLY helps!

I find that I have a hard time counting and playing at the same time. They way I generally do it is breaking down the section into phrases. Typically an odd meter riff will have two distinct sounding phrases within them (to my ears anyway) - think of them as two smaller phrases played back to back, and you may find grooving in odd meters easier.

Take this with a grain of salt, as I have a tough time playing in 4/4. Seriously.

i parse things in 2's and 3's, based on the time sig and the most appropriate phrasing for the tune.

i've heard that half-count thing before, but that just seems really unnecessarily hard for me. still, though, whatever works :).

i parse things in 2's and 3's, based on the time sig and the most appropriate phrasing for the tune.


I remember learning KC's Larks tongues 4 in segments of 3's and 2's, I guess i was going down the right path. My past teachers were no help in these matters :(

think of them as two smaller phrases played back to back, and you may find grooving in odd meters easier.

That makes sense, I just hope these guys dont break into some wierd 15 / 8 jam and see how i do hehe

Only 1 week til audition, 3 songs left to learn... :bassist:

Straitjacket (by my band, The Pyrotones)
http://herculeaneffort.adventuredevelopers.com/straitjacket.mp3
Intro is in 11/8 and [A] section is in 7/8.

I feel that intro as 6 then 5 beats, because a clear down beat is played on beats 1 and 7. By counting (feeling) 5.5 beats I'd not be feeling those downbeats in the same way whcih would affect my groove.

Of course, as was said above 'whatever works'. I'm not the guy playing it!! :D

Obviously the head is intended to be played very stacatto, but I have to say I dont think it grooves very well. That's not supposed to be a personal attack of any sort, rather, I think it's a problem inherant with odd meters (with complex music), and the stacatto just adds to the rigidity.

No offence intended whatsoever, I doubt I could do any better. As a piece of music, I just dont think it flows, even when you move into 8 for the chorus, the drums are the main culprit I think, it feels as tho every 8th note is being hit so the drummer doenst loose his place (which I can entirely relate to!!). Sorry if that's out of order in anyway.

I just think odd meters are great if you can make them groove as strong as we all can in 4. If you cant, they just feel awkward. That's just my opinion mind.

Obviously the head is intended to be played very stacatto, but I have to say I dont think it grooves very well. That's not supposed to be a personal attack of any sort, rather, I think it's a problem inherant with odd meters (with complex music), and the stacatto just adds to the rigidity.

No offence intended whatsoever, I doubt I could do any better. As a piece of music, I just dont think it flows...

I listened to it and I know what you mean - but I couldn't help thinking of how appropriate the title was - as in, odd time is often thought of as a straitjacket - maybe a bit of ironic humour going on....? ;)

Yeah, that occured to me too, which I why I said that it was clearly meant to be very stacatto, but it still feels overly awkward, even in the solos in 8, it's the drumming I think.

This is entirely why I dont find odd meters particularly fun - I dont enjoy playing music that doesnt flow, music that is jerky.

I wrote a piece cycling on [7/8, 7/8, 4/4] that feels perfectly natural... altho it really feels like [4, 3, 4, 3, 4] because the chords change on the 5th beat of the bars in 7.

Again, it's been said so many times, but I think the only tunes that work in odd meters are those that are written around a groove that just happens to be in an odd meter, when things are pushed into 7 or whatever it just feels that way, IMO.

Great thread! :)

The numbers from 1 to 10 are one syllable each (if you pronounce "seven" as "s'ven" or "sen".

If there are 10 or less beats per measure I just count them out.

If its more than 10, I just break it into two counts per measure.

So if I was playing "Dance On A Volcano" by Genesis (I think that's in 13/8) , I'd count

"one, two, three, four, five, six, sen
one, two, three, four, five, six" (and repeat)

I'm not sure of the proper name for this but sometimes there is a natural subset of time signatures within a bar. For example in "Money" by Pink Floyd is in 7 but it feels like a bar of 3 and a bar of 4. Hence, it's notated in 7/4 for convenience, as it's easier to read than a time change every bar.

Its a good idea to create your countings to these natural subsets. For example, try counting Money as "one, two, three, one, two, three, four".

I'm not sure of the proper name for this but sometimes there is a natural subset of time signatures within a bar. For example in "Money" by Pink Floyd is in 7 but it feels like a bar of 3 and a bar of 4. Hence, it's notated in 7/4 for convenience, as it's easier to read than a time change every bar.

Its a good idea to create your countings to these natural subsets. For example, try counting Money as "one, two, three, one, two, three, four".

I agree, it's kind of a melodic phrasing thing I guess?

My guess is that it's still notated 7/4 because the melody cycles every 7 crochets, even tho it's in two clear phrases.. but I am guessing?!

There is a Dave Brubeck piece on Time Out, which alternates between 3/4 and 4/4 - but it's two bars of 3 then two bars of 4 - "Three to get ready".

As The Reff and Benjamin said, i do a combination of both of their suggestions. Until i started listening to electronic music 5/4 and 6/4 were my natural signatures to write everything to. i always felt that all my phrasings were being cut off if i stayed to 4/4 timing.

When i come across a beat that is difficult, i think less about the timing and more about what kind of melodic or rhythmic groove i can put in there that will fit the mood properly. Once i have that locked in then i can "sing" it in my head as i play. Though i do see this as a serious limitation on my part because deeply hinders my ability to jam in odd time signatures.

I teach general music to elementary school kids from time to time. I always tell them that I don't know how to count higher than three. Most meter fall into the categories of duple, triple or compound. Compound meters can usually be broken into a combination of 2's and 3's as someone pointed out. Here's some examples... The Mission Impossible Theme is in 5/4 and is broken into 123 12. Same with Take 5. Eleven by Primus can be broken into 12312312312. There are tunes where this doesn't work but I have found it as a good shortcut to get a basic understanding of the meter. Then when you are comfortable and start to feel the time you can really jam.

Funny story. I auditioned with a band a while back. The first tune they called at the audition was Conference of the Bird by Dave Holland. The tune is in 5/4 with a bar of 2/4 in the first ending. I had never really played the tune before so I was kinda nervous. I'm pretty good at playing in odd meters and read pretty well so I was hanging fine. The first ending came, with the bar of 2/4, and time got messed up. I thought I was right but apollogized and we tried it again. Same thing happened. I noticed out of the corner of my eye that the drummers most was moving. He was counting! He was the one having a hard time. I thought 'oh $%!#' We tried it again, same result. It was the drummers fault. I thanked them for hearing me, packed my stuff and left. I don't fault the guy for having a hard time with the meter, but not when I'm the one in the hot seat.

yup, they'll probably always break down into groups of 2's & 3's... and most of the music you'll be called on to play in odd meters really makes the meter obvious... you know, yer 'Mission Impossible's and yer 'Take 5's of the world... but when you start doing things like putting rests on the 1st beat of a phrase, or playing 7/8 but with a quarter note triplet over the 1st 2 1.4 notes etc, it can get scary

listening to Zappa is great for getting into unusual meters... like the 1st solo vamp of Drowning Witch is, I suppose 9/8, but broken down as: { 1-2 1-2 1-2 1-2-3 } (could be more accurately called 4 1/2 / 4 )

the beginning of 'Don't Eat The Yellow Snow' is 7/8, broken down as {1-2 1-2 1-2-3}

the opening of 'Big Swifty' is 2 bars of 7/16, counted as {1-2 1-2 1-2-3}

the end of 'Echidna's Arf' contains streams and streams of 5/16's, counted {1-2 1-2-3}

a few listens to stuff like that should hammer the concept nicely home.. you can't apply rules of thumb like '11/8 should be played as a 5/4 with an extra eighth note' because there are obviously numerous ways of accenting 11 consecutive eighth notes

e.g. Whipping Post by Zappa has an 11/8 section which is like a 12/8 with a note chopped off: {1-2-3 1-2-3 1-2-3 1-2} try playing that as a 5/4 + 1/8 and you'll be causing yourself a lot of unnecessary work

Well i did have my audition yesterday, I think it went ok. A bit of stumbles at some parts.
I found myself doing what others have posted about and just locking onto some signature in the compound parts like a melody or drum groove. Bad habit i guess but had to with the short notice in learning the tunes

This might be pretty cool if they want me to stick around, As i found out two of the guys in a previous band together opened for the Who a while back :hyper:

Anyone heard of Ryan Downe?

i've found from my brief excursion into classical music, playing Les Mis, where sometimes every bar is a different time sig+tempo that the sooner you discard the western idea that everything is based in relation to 4/4 then you'll find it a lot easier.
does that make any sense. I just had to let go of the rigid 4/4 framework and just let each bar be whatever.

Explained that awfully, anyone explain it better for me?

Dodge

Yeah, but more important than breaking down odd meters, just learn to feel them. Counting is fine in a learning stage, but eventually if you want to solo over an odd-meter you're going to need to feel it. Just listen and groove and solo over it. It's really not that hard and can be quite fun.

I've listened to Dream Theater and the Flecktones for the last dozen years or so, and BY FAR the best thing I can suggest, is to suck it up, and tap your foot and count along until you can decipher the meter AND accents. Accents in this case meaning more where the smaller subdivisions come into play. Like Brubeck's "Time Out" being 123-12.(even though the accents are actually 2 over 3 in the first three 8ths. anyways..)

I've learned that if I can physically count it out, and then remember where the accents lie, then it's no prob. The fun begins when you start playing with superimpositions. A few newer DT songs will help with that.

I'm part of a jazz duo, and the fun for me is to keep the basic rhythm at least implied while the guitar player is soloing, and I want to accent some other beat. We do "My Favorite Things" in 11/8. And that's just lopping off a beat at the end of each 2 bar phrase.
Most of what I play counts like this...
*--*--*-*-*-/*--*--****

The four 16ths at the end give the guitar player a nod into the cut off, but the hemiola at the beginning of each bar is occasionally confusing.

Most of the time I just try to play whatever tasteful nutsness is in my head and hope I don't screw up.

Like Brubeck's "Time Out" being 123-12.(even though the accents are actually 2 over 3 in the first three 8ths. anyways..)

What are you talking about here - as far as I'm aware "Time Out" is only the name of an album, not a particular tune and "Take Five" was written by Paul Desmond? :hmm:

Correct you are.

I even play "Take Five" with my duo. Which is OFF OF "Time Out"

It was late. Sue me.

Correct you are.

I even play "Take Five" with my duo. Which is OFF OF "Time Out"

It was late. Sue me.

I just wondered if there was another 5/4 tune, actually written by Brubeck, that I hadn't heard of ...?

I really dig playing in compound meters and do a fair amount of composing in them. I also try to remember a quote I once read by Art Blakey though... something like "One hip is cool, but two hips make an @$$"

If the end product comes out a confusing then what? That's why Zappa and Brubeck and Dave Holland are so cool. They do neat stuff with time but don't make it sound like "a drumset being thrown down the stairs" (another quote, I'm not sure by whom)

I just wondered if there was another 5/4 tune, actually written by Brubeck, that I hadn't heard of ...?

I know there has to be. At least part of another tune that's in 5(that's not what you're saying though). I'm only familiar with Time Out, although I got a double CD "Essential" a month or so ago, but I haven't taken any time to chart any of it out yet.

The thing that gets me about Brubeck's stuff, like Blue Rondo, or Raggy Waltz, is the way he goes poly(and/or mixed) on it. Blue Rondo goes 121212123 for 3 bars, and ends with one of 123123123. Raggy Waltz goes something like 121212 123123 123412 123412 123123 123123. So you get this whacked "time change" feel w/o actually doing it.

We likes it precious.