I am planning on entering grad school in Autumn 2006. I would like to get a teacher who plays german bow to allow me to work on some of the more kinesthetic, nuanced aspects of the german bow.

Yes, I know I could learn just as well from a french bow player. I've spent my entire career as a student with french bow players and am still learning TONS from my current teacher. I just really feel that a german bowing teacher can address issues less understood by an exclusively french player.

That said, my main criterion for a grad school is that it must be in the midwest/east coast. I want to get far away from Florida. I guess I should also add that I am looking for a school with a good graduate assistantship program and, obviously, good ensembles and learning/gigging opportunies.

Suggestions?

I would think Bruce Brandsby at IU or Rob Kassinger from the CSO who teaches at DePaul here in Chicago. I have heard that Todd Seeber is really good out in Boston, too.

I went through a similar problem also. In addition to the teachers already mentioned there is Chris Hanulik in LA, Orin O'brien in NY and Paul Ellison at Rice. Mark Morton is an excellent German bow teacher but I do not know if he teaches at a school that offers a masters degree. There are many schools out there. Get the best teacher you can afford.

Greg Sarchet in Chicago. He teaches at a few schools in Chicago area.

Jack Budrow- Michigan State, Last I heard...

All the others mentioned are great too.
BG

I know it's corny but... when the student is ready the teacher will appear...
How about europe, get a Fullbright and study with a real " German"... rather that than a "butler" bow guy...

when the student has a family that he has to worry about moving to a safe location with a good school system, good jobs, and a reasonable amount of "community," it behooves the student to plan ahead.

The truth of the matter is I can never afford some of these schools that do not offer assistantships and rarely offer full rides (still need a job to support the family after that). I'm going to grad school partly because I didn't get enough in my undergrad. I started double bass late and had crappy ensembles and an unsopportive department once I did get rolling. I'm behind and probably won't be blowing anyone away at an audition (yet I will still try (and practice) as hard as I can).

At this point, I really need to make sure I am planning with more interests than just mine in mind. That's why I want to take time next summer to visit the communities that may yield a good teacher/school or two. And that is why I ask :)

I am planning on entering grad school in Autumn 2006. I would like to get a teacher who plays german bow to allow me to work on some of the more kinesthetic, nuanced aspects of the german bow.
That said, my main criterion for a grad school is that it must be in the midwest/east coast. I want to get far away from Florida. I guess I should also add that I am looking for a school with a good graduate assistantship program and, obviously, good ensembles and learning/gigging opportunies.


I had a GREAT experience at Indiana University with Bruce Bransby. Former Principal in Los Angeles, pretty intense guy.
All lessons are audio and video taped; you're expected to go home and re-live the lessons.

A couple years with Bransby and I was audition ready... I came into my MM degree not even knowing what to expect to get an orchestra job... when I left I was able to teach far better from digesting all Bransby's ideas, and I got accepted into New World Symphony in Miami, then within 5 weeks I won a Job!

IU kicks butt! The teachers, the whole bass-major environment, the school...Just go look at the "audition winners" thread, and count the number of recent IU grads who got BIG jobs!

There are six regional orchestras near IU that draw heavily upon IU students for gigs. I made about $12 k a year playing in weekend orchestras; got tons of experience above and beyond the six student orchestras that IU boasts.

Beyond IU, which is perfectly centrally located for taking all sorts of major auditions without having to buy an airline ticket every time, here are some places to go for great grad school audition training with "German Bow Players":

Indiana University, Bloomington, Indiana
Bruce Bransby
-Former Principal, LA Phil

Univ. Southern California, Los Angeles
David Moore
-LA Phil section

Rice University, Houston, Texas
Paul Ellison
-Former Principal, Houston

Also, try a search on talkbass.com - this thread has shown up elsewhere, too.

Does anyone know anything about Paul Johnson at Peabody and Towson? He's principal of the Baltimore Opera and a German player.

Baltimore seems like a pretty happening place with The State University, Towson, and Peabody all there.

I have heard mixed things about Paul. A few guys from IU wen to brevard and studied with him for the summer and said he had some good things to say and some strange things. But peabody is an expensive school. IU is much cheaper than Peabody. But you can't go wrong with Jack Budrow at Michigan State and they have a lot of assistantships there. Also Eastern Carolina University has a great teacher Lenny Finkelstien principal of North Carolina....ask mike about him

I have heard mixed things about Paul. A few guys from IU wen to brevard and studied with him for the summer and said he had some good things to say and some strange things. But peabody is an expensive school. IU is much cheaper than Peabody. But you can't go wrong with Jack Budrow at Michigan State and they have a lot of assistantships there. Also Eastern Carolina University has a great teacher Lenny Finkelstien principal of North Carolina....ask mike about him

That was the main reason I mentioned Jack. They have assistantships... He is also a wonderful teacher.

IMHO
Brian

Also Eastern Carolina University has a great teacher Lenny Finkelstien principal of North Carolina....ask mike about him

Leonid Finkelshteyn ("Lenny") is a very nice person, and definitely helpful to work with. (He also teaches at Eastern Music Festival). ECU also is cheap, and they might have lots of $$ for basses...being a lesser known school and all...

not sure if you were planning coming overseas.
here in Germany(Freiburg) Bozo Paradzik is the man :)
After studing in NY for 6 years with varius teachers i decided to move to Europe and study with what's to my ears the best player to ever play our instrument.
who knows of his playing knows what i am talking about. :)

I have Bozo's CD Double Bass; Elephant or Swan? It's great stuff, espically the bottesini and the (live!) gliere.

Now I know a lot of people here have their opinions from experience and otherwise, but I think you might want to consider Levinson, espically if you're also interested in Orin O'Brien.

Anyone who goes into his studio will come out a pretty solid bass player but if he method really clicks with you the results are unbeleivable. He would be very willing to give you a lesson if you where out in NY, drop me a PM or email and I can hook you up with contact info.

I studied with Paul from 1995-2001...he was actually the reason I ended up in Baltimore! He's an amazing teacher with a *huge* command over the opera lit in particular. I understand the 'strange' comment someone made earlier in the thread...Paul pushes his students much differently than other teachers I've known. He's a very deep guy and uses the bass to teach more than just music.
Note: I'm a French bow kinda guy, so I can't really comment on his German teaching techniques other than the semester I spent stealing his bow trying to decide if I wanted to switch :)

Drop a line if there's anything else i can answer...

how come no-one has mentioned don palma at new england conservatory. he is the only full tim teacher there and from what ive heard is a great teacher. ??

Todd Seeber. He teaches at NEC and BU. An absolutely amazing player, a nice guy and a dedicated teacher. His level of commitment to the music is really exceptional.

I studied with Lenny at Eastern Music Festival this previous summer, and he was amazing. And I am a french bow player. Chris Hanulik (UCLA) is my teacher right now, and he is a great teacher, assuming your playing style is aggressive. LA is a fun city, not cheap, but fun. I go to school up in the hills, so I commute every week for a lesson. Now, why am I stuck with all the german bow players. Oh, one thing about ECU is that greenville is a place you would want to check out before you live there. Some people I know love it, some hate it. I don't like it much personally, but my home is Charlotte, which is much different.
Best of Luck
Peter

I can also recommend Jack Budrow at Michigan State. He's an incredibly nice person and a great teacher. You'll learn a lot from him. His bow technique is pretty flawless and he also plays french. He's always used the two and has great technique on both of them.

At Juilliard there's Orin O'Brien and Eugene Levinson, but if you're a german player I don't know if I can recommend going there. The two do not get along from what I've heard and they get their students involved in their problem. If you were interested in studying with Orin it may be better to go to Manhattan to avoid the conflict. I don't think either are bad people on their own but together they're just not enjoyable to be around and it's causing a mess in the bass department at Juilliard.

Also at Manhattan is David Grossman, who plays german and is currently in the New York Philharmonic. He's a student of Levinson and Linda McKnight so I would probably image his playing to be the same deal as Levinson but with some things picked up from Linda. Linda also plays german in addition to playing french and I can't recommend her enough as she's my teacher, but I see her mostly with french students even if she plays both. David Grossman also teaches at Rutgers but that may be as expensive if you're out of NJ. Linda also teaches at NYU, Columbia, and Montclair, but again, expensive schools.

Homer Mensch plays both bows and still teaches at Mannes and Juilliard even though he resigned from Manhattan, but the people around here say he's not in good health. I would very much like to meet the man, but at this point he's in a wheelchair from breaking his hip and has a 24/7 nurse that lives with him in his apartment. I don't think time is on his side. Also at Mannes is Marji, but I know none of her students so I can't say one way or the other about her as a teacher.

James VanDemark at Eastman plays german, I'm pretty sure. I'll probably meet him in about two weeks when I go up to Rochester. I'm trying to organize a lesson so I'll let you know how it turns out if he contacts me back saying it's a go.

I know this is a late post, but I just wanted to brush up on the previous post to iron out any misconceptions regarding teachers in NYC.
I don't think the bad blood between Orin and Levinson is as bad as it was made out to be. Yes, they have their issues, but they do seem to deal with it in a rather professional matter. I've never heard anything of them getting their student involved and I would be interested to see who would say that whether it be a student of Orin or Levinson. I don't have much personal interaction with Levinson, but I could most definitely say Orin would never let such a thing occur.
David Grossman also studied extensively with Homer Mensch and Orin before he studied with Levinson. I see his teaching technique as taking a little bit from all four teachers. He's very meticulous and I personally love studying with him.
Homer never played german bow. He's always been a french bow player. You could study with him regardless but don't think for a second that he'll let you take a lesson with a german bow teacher (this i know from personal experience).
VanDemark is equally proficient playing french and german bow.
Hope this clears things up.

I know this is a late post, but I just wanted to brush up on the previous post to iron out any misconceptions regarding teachers in NYC.
I don't think the bad blood between Orin and Levinson is as bad as it was made out to be. Yes, they have their issues, but they do seem to deal with it in a rather professional matter. I've never heard anything of them getting their student involved and I would be interested to see who would say that whether it be a student of Orin or Levinson. I don't have much personal interaction with Levinson, but I could most definitely say Orin would never let such a thing occur.
David Grossman also studied extensively with Homer Mensch and Orin before he studied with Levinson. I see his teaching technique as taking a little bit from all four teachers. He's very meticulous and I personally love studying with him.
Homer never played german bow. He's always been a french bow player. You could study with him regardless but don't think for a second that he'll let you take a lesson with a german bow teacher (this i know from personal experience).
VanDemark is equally proficient playing french and german bow.
Hope this clears things up.

+1. I think it's pretty safe to say that someone who has attained the level that Mrs. O'Brien and Mr. Levinson have, will know how to handle professional disagreements.

Look, unless you compared a teacher to his student, you will never find two people who completely agree upon the best possible way to play the double bass. I'm sure Mr. Bransby and Mr. Hurst have their disagreements as do Ellison and Pitts. I think Orin and Levinsons relationship is blow out of proportion because they work together. I have never met Mrs. O'brien but I will say that Mr. Levinson is an absolute professionalon stage and in the studio. He is very strong minded about his techniques but even so he would NEVER allow his personal feelings about someone hinder the education of one of his students.

All this is really odd to me. When I went to Juilliard in 1992, Levinson and O'brien were best buddies. O'Brien almost acted as Levinson assistant. After a couple of years of work, she would tell her students that it was time for them to study with Levinson because he had more to offer than she. They were a real team, and it was great for the students.
I am sad to see that things have changed for the worse.

As far as Levinson goes, I agree that he is an incredible professional, but if you have small hands or a tendency for tendinitis I would not recommend going to him. His scale fingerings were brutal to my hands, lots of 3rd finger in the lower positions (with extensions).

Back to the teacher recommendation, Horst-Dieter Wenkel in Weimar-Germany. Free tuition, cheap cost of living, and the best teacher in Germany. His students are:
-Principal in NDR Hamburg
-Both principals and one section player in Gewandhaus-Leipzig
-Both principals in the Dresden Staatskapelle (the best opera house in Germany)
-the list goes on and on

Warning, he is a psychopath. None of this nice north-american sweet/polite/understanding stuff. I had to leave after a year because of this, but I am a softie.

I've seen some professional musicians act pretty childish at times. Maybe I've heard worse things than you two, but I've heard some bad things about the two that include some pretty serious charges. I don't want to say anything that might not be true so I'll refrain from doing so but I've heard about all of this from many sources with the same experiences happening mulitple times so there is obviously something going on between the two.

I agree about Levinson's fingering system. While I think that third finger usage opens up great posibilities and could be the future standard fingering for bass players, it doesn't feel too great for me because I have horrible double jointedness, especially in my third finger which means that the tip of my third finger on both hands is continually pointed upwards. At the angle my hand comes in on lower positions it causes the finger to collapse. It's fine for positions above the octave harmonic, but it doesn't work for me in lower positions. That's just me. If you have normal hands I think that it's worth checking out.

Mensch's german bow is very convincing if you've seen it in action, even if he's always been french.

Mr. VanDemark is an excellent teacher and an amazing bass player. I recommend him highly. He was incredibly nice and helpful when I visited Eastman. His studio is large being the only teacher at Eastman (which includes, I believe, more than 20 students), but I doubt that means he's less one on one with his students because it seems like he spends a lot of effort teaching his students. He mentioned to me that he's had assistants, but they don't often teach students.

I would be very interested to hear some of your stories if we may ever cross paths in NYC.

Unfortunately I'm too young to have ever really seen Mr. Mensch play period. The only opportunity I've had was in watching some of the Bernstein young person concerts and that's of course only for a few seconds at best if they used a shot of the section. I saw him hacking away on open strings before a lesson a few years ago. From that little display I could tell you most definitely that at that time, he hadn't lost much in his right hand.

One comment regarding VanDemark. In studying with him over the summer, the only thing that struck me as a negative is that he's not as strong with orchestral excerpts as the teachers that are in orchestras. Something you might strongly consider if you're thinking about Eastman.

Man this thread is turning into a great juilliard/MSM pre-college hang-out. :bassist:

Do you guys know anything about Tim Cobb as teacher?

I heard that he was pretty dogmatic (like Levinson), that you had to use his fingerings etc....

I studied mostly with the late David Walter, a fantastic teacher and a better man yet. He used to give us a good amount of freedom. I am looking for a great orchestral coach in NYC, but it can't be a dictator. I have had enough of those.

Cheers

No one at MSM has ever complained about Mr. Cobb being dogmatic with his fingerings. I don't know if it's just cuz they use them and don't complain or if its cuz he's not really that insistant. I really think you can't go wrong with studying with him though.
In regards to that though, my friend was studying abroad last year in Stuttgart, Germany with Matthias Weber and I think he put it best. "You know, I don't care if you use my fingerings or not, but I already have a job and you don't."

There is some truth to that for sure.
I am just wary at first because of my tendinitis history. Levinson will not accept anything but his fingerings even if they brake your hands (happened to a friend of mine). People like the late Stuart Sankey would actually help you find the fingering that was best for your particular hand, bass, body etc...

Have you worked with Leigh Mesch?

Oh no it's defintiely not like Mr. Levinson's style in that respect, I can assure you of that.
Most of Tim's students here have taken lessons with Leigh. From what I've heard from them, he's a great teacher. I've heard that he sometimes very blunt with his comments and you can guarantee he's tell you exactly how he feels about your playing...my kind of guy. Are you french or german bow?

That sounds great what you say about Leigh.

I am a German bow player, but (not wanting to sound arrogant) I don't really need a german bow teacher anymore. I just need a good orchestral teacher.

How is the scholarship situation at MSM?

relatively dismal.

Yale recently got 100 million for the music department. Don Palma's studio is about to take off.
http://www.cnn.com/2005/EDUCATION/11/07/yale.freemusic.ap/

IU's School of Music also just got a huge donation. After the matching gifts, there will be $40 million dollars endowing graduate fellowships and $20 million endowing undergrad scholarships starting next year. Things will get even more competitive, but the money is there to be had.

Well, finally !!

They are realizing that we can't pay back so they might as well educate us for free.

No one at MSM has ever complained about Mr. Cobb being dogmatic with his fingerings. I don't know if it's just cuz they use them and don't complain or if its cuz he's not really that insistant. I really think you can't go wrong with studying with him though.
In regards to that though, my friend was studying abroad last year in Stuttgart, Germany with Matthias Weber and I think he put it best. "You know, I don't care if you use my fingerings or not, but I already have a job and you don't."

Tim Cobb is a firm believer and user of the French Bow.

just my 2 cents,
joel quarrington is a great teacher and player, german bow player, teaches students in both. I'd highly recommend him.
toronto isn't ny, but a good school is a good school..
buz

Is Quarrington still in Toronto?

I thought he was working in Ottawa.

Do you know if he has private students?

Mr. Quarrington is going to start playing next fall in Ottawa but he is still playing as principal bass in the Toronto Symphony and he will continue to teach his full class at the Royal Conservatory in Toronto while working in Ottawa. He told me that that he will take some students at McGill in Montreal as well!
I was fortunate enough to have him as a teacher ten years ago and I wouldn't hesitate to suggest to anyone playing either bow (or any tuning) to go study with him.
I went to two of his students recitals last year and they sounded totally awesome!

Mr. Quarrington is going to start playing next fall in Ottawa but he is still playing as principal bass in the Toronto Symphony and he will continue to teach his full class at the Royal Conservatory in Toronto while working in Ottawa. He told me that that he will take some students at McGill in Montreal as well!
I was fortunate enough to have him as a teacher ten years ago and I wouldn't hesitate to suggest to anyone playing either bow (or any tuning) to go study with him.
I went to two of his students recitals last year and they sounded totally awesome!

He is currently still Principal yes, but I believe they're auditioning for a new principal spot for the next season for the TSO.

Tim Cobb is a firm believer and user of the French Bow.

haha i know...i don't think anyone ever suggested otherwise.

re: joel quarrington...just out of curiosity, how insistent is he that his students modify their setup to tuning in 5ths? If you don't change, is he less effective as a teacher? The reason I ask is because I saw a masterclass he gave a few years back and everything he seemed to say was in regard to how this lick in a bach suite would be easier if you tuned in 5ths, or how you could play a complete chord in this spot or that spot if you tuned in 5ths. It seemed more like he was trying to sell his new ideas about playing rather than give general thoughts that most students in the environment of a masterclass would probably find more useful.

Disclaimer: I concur that he is a ridiculously amazing player and this is in no way any sort of attack on him...just putting that out there to avoid any misunderstanding ahead of time...

haha i know...i don't think anyone ever suggested otherwise.

re: joel quarrington...just out of curiosity, how insistent is he that his students modify their setup to tuning in 5ths? If you don't change, is he less effective as a teacher? The reason I ask is because I saw a masterclass he gave a few years back and everything he seemed to say was in regard to how this lick in a bach suite would be easier if you tuned in 5ths, or how you could play a complete chord in this spot or that spot if you tuned in 5ths. It seemed more like he was trying to sell his new ideas about playing rather than give general thoughts that most students in the environment of a masterclass would probably find more useful.

Disclaimer: I concur that he is a ridiculously amazing player and this is in no way any sort of attack on him...just putting that out there to avoid any misunderstanding ahead of time...

Oh, that's a pretty decent question. I know that he has many students who do not tune in fifths, or should I said are in the process of converting. I think the idea is that, once you're studying with such an amazing teacher and performer you want to adapt to how he plays. He has a very gifted student that just switched to german bow but still tunes in fourths. Joel, teaches at many summer music schools to students in 4ths and with french bow. After all, that's where he started too.

Mr Q is so talented he could tune his bass in tri-tones and make a case for it.

Jeff Bradetich is an awesome teacher. He can teach french or german. I play german and studied with him at UNT. He is a great musician, bass player, and a really nice person.

Jeff Bradetich is an awesome teacher. He can teach french or german. I play german and studied with him at UNT. He is a great musician, bass player, and a really nice person.

I agree with almost everything, but most teachers claim to be able to teach both bows perfectly and this is rarely the case

I guess some really do, and Jeff might be one of them, but it's really unusual.

Most french bow teachers can help you with german bow if you are talented and play naturally, or if you are somewhat advanced to the point where it doesn't matter so much. However, if you happen to have a stumbling block (off the string strokes for example) you might find yourself taking private lessons or going to camps with german bow teachers to make up for their lack of true understanding of the german bow.

Well, I had a good Mozart stroke when I got to UNT, but Jeff really helped me to learn how to loosen up and conect my legato bow strokes over the whole bow. He also helped me a lot with heavy spicato. I think Jeff really understands what a german bow player has to do to play musically.

+1 for Jeff Bradetich

The guy gets a tone out of the bass with the French bow that any German bow player could envy...full and powerful.

I envy it, anyway LOL

i really question joel's status of being a good teacher. he try's to change how his student plays (5ths or german bow- specifically the snakewood bow)....and just because he can play well with it, and 5ths is easier to play what, a handleful of excerpts?, and extremely difficult to all the others...he wants to MAKE all his students play his way? - how close minded could a teacher be?

to his students here, name any bass players that have been a students of joel's for a degree and has kept playing in 4ths and french bow??

another question to his students here, name 1 student that he has taught that has won a MAJOR job?

(the only person i can think of is hilda, which im sure it didn't hurt her chances that he was judging the audition).......... and to say he's got no pull or that auditions can't be rigged? let's just say he's the highest paid member of his orchestra- MORE then the concertmaster... what orchestra do you know looks at the principal bass to lead the group???

and the fact that i mentioned 1 player who has almost won a full time job, means his name shouldn't even be mentioned in the big names being dropped in this thread.......

so with that being said, why would anyone skip going to school's that have amazing teachers who's students are great audition success, then go to a great (not the best)solo player who has little to no student success?

i know this seems like a harsh message, but it had to be said sometime........ i don't know why nobody hasn't brought this up before

to his students here, name any bass players that have been a students of joel's for a degree and has kept playing in 4ths and french bow??

Many of Joel's students in the Toronto Youth Orchestra (the exact name eludes me) are either, or.

Regardless, having a student change bows is not as big of a deal as you make it to be. Some teachers just don't feel comfortable teaching the other, even if they are proficient at the opposite bow.


another question to his students here, name 1 student that he has taught that has won a MAJOR job?

Nic Boychuk- Calgary Philharmonic Orchestra
Jeff White- Calgary Philharmonic Orchestra

Both were members of Canada's National Youth Orchestra

(the only person i can think of is hilda, which im sure it didn't hurt her chances that he was judging the audition).......... and to say he's got no pull or that auditions can't be rigged? let's just say he's the highest paid member of his orchestra- MORE then the concertmaster... what orchestra do you know looks at the principal bass to lead the group???

Of the past two NY Phil auditions, both of the winners were students of Mr. Levinson. I mention this not to point fingers, but to show that there are other examples of principals' students winning. Give me more time and I can most definitely think of other scenarios of the like.


and the fact that i mentioned 1 player who has almost won a full time job, means his name shouldn't even be mentioned in the big names being dropped in this thread.......

The idea of fifths tuning is really quite radical. I just spoke with Dennis Masuzzo, the author of the only method book on playing in fifths. Because I am interested in fifths, I asked of any teachers to where I am moving. His reply was as follows: "I don't know of anyone in the world who could teach you fifths besides Mr. Quarrington, me, and Silvio Dalla Torre."

Because of its radicalism, there aren't many players. Even if all of Joels students who play in fifths were to win an audition, I am positive that there would be no more than a handful.


so with that being said, why would anyone skip going to school's that have amazing teachers who's students are great audition success, then go to a great (not the best)solo player who has little to no student success?

i know this seems like a harsh message, but it had to be said sometime........ i don't know why nobody hasn't brought this up before


All in all, I disagree entirely.

Give the "fifths club" some time, you angry bassist.

You both are lucky to be using anonymous names. I don't have that particular honor, so I'm going to keep whatever I have to say short and sweet.

Of the past two NY Phil auditions, both of the winners were students of Mr. Levinson. I mention this not to point fingers, but to show that there are other examples of principals' students winning. Give me more time and I can most definitely think of other scenarios of the like.
Not to knock Levinson, but he could easily be accused of everything "beerandbass" just said of Quarrington, without the fifths tuning. His approach to teaching is very strict, and it doesn't surprise me that his most successful students have gone on to work for him.

What I'm trying to say is that it isn't necessarily wrong to teach with a strict attitude towards teaching, but the student has to believe in the approach. While I strongly disagree, personally, with any teaching method that requires a student to emulate his teacher, I can't claim it isn't a valid way to teach. Forcing students to switch bows is nothing new, and goes back as far as the introduction of the French bass bow itself. I think requiring students to tune in fifths is needlessly excessive, but if student and teacher agree it is the best approach, who are we to disagree?

I truly hope that aleandcarp's comments do not send the thread I started into a downward spiral, ultimately meaning the closing of an important thread.

Every time I open Double Bassist magazine, I am confronted by at least one player who is playing classical(read:non-jazz) music, but has little interest in a major symphony job. It seems to me that, although it may be of extreme importance in this "Orchestral Technique" forum, landing a gig in a major orchestra is not the only pinnacle of bass playing.

Mr. Quarrington may or may not be producing "winning" students - I honestly don't follow him that closely. But to introduce yourself (again, anonymously) to this forum by question(ing) joel's status of being a good teacher. indicates a lack of vision in my book.

By the way - I have since been offered a great financial package to attend the University of South Florida to study with Dee Moses (Classical/Arco) and Mark Neuenschwander (Jazz), neither of whom play German AFAIK. I am thoroughly confident in Dee's ability to get me where I need to go, though.

nic doesn't play for calgary phil.....he only had a few year contracts....it's done

jeff i believe has a full time job..... but you seem to be missing the point. Jeff went to IU for school.

(so i guess if he got a handful of lessons from Joel, Joel can now claim him as his only full time successful student?....)

and telling me that his students go on to be in the national youth orchestra of canada, its a YOUTH ORCHESTRA that plays in the summer........ are you even reading what i said???

he hasn't produced ANYONE himself.... so why would anyone go study with him?

ya you could call me an angry, but people are still defending joel. im not sure how? because playing has nothing to do with teaching... and it's pretty simple to see how someone teaches by their students, and when NO STUDENTS are in full time major jobs, how can anyone compare him to the great teachers???? insane.......

Great. Then you don't need to go study with him. What's wrong if someone else disagrees with your point of view?

I see where you're coming from. I wouldn't study with him, either. But I don't think it's right to rudely attack him just because you don't happen to like the way he teaches.

I apologize for any "violent attacks" that my post seems to be filled with. I was merely defending Mr. Quarrington's studio and ability as a teacher.

As I said with Mr. Levinson, he was the first person to come to mind and I don't intend to point fingers at anyone at all.

Edit: Jeff White has studied with Joel..sometime between his studies at IU and his winning of Calgary.

You both are lucky to be using anonymous names. I don't have that particular honor, so I'm going to keep whatever I have to say short and sweet.


Thank you. I'd like to kindly request that everyone stand behind their words, especially when casting aspersions on another well known player. It's a small world these days, and inflammatory comments about other living players on a public forum don't only get read by the parties making them, but also by anyone anywhere in the world who happens to read them on this forum. When these comments are made by anonymous individuals, they rank much lower on the evolutionary food chain as far as I'm concerned, since they cannot help but reflect on the forum itself.

Let's keep it real here. It would be nice if everyone took Paul's example and stood behind their opinions. Failing that, consider this a reminder that anonymous flame bait will only hasten the closing of this thread.

Beerandbass do you have any personal experience with Joel Quarrington? It seems like you're awfully angry at his teaching and it seems like you either don't know him or he did something to personally annoy you.

You don't have to have students in many professional orchestras to be a great teacher. If he has students switch to German bow or tune in fifths it's so that his students can get the most out of studying with him. I know if I was going to study with him I would at least try tuning in fifths for a little bit.


so with that being said, why would anyone skip going to school's that have amazing teachers who's students are great audition success, then go to a great (not the best)solo player who has little to no student success?


Different students get along with different teachers better and want to learn what specific teachers have to offer. There are very few, if any, teachers that I would go study with without having worked with before. Sometimes one lesson can tell you a lot about how you will work with somebody.

Also, fill out your profile.

nic doesn't play for calgary phil.....he only had a few year contracts....it's done

jeff i believe has a full time job..... but you seem to be missing the point. Jeff went to IU for school.

(so i guess if he got a handful of lessons from Joel, Joel can now claim him as his only full time successful student?....)

and telling me that his students go on to be in the national youth orchestra of canada, its a YOUTH ORCHESTRA that plays in the summer........ are you even reading what i said???

he hasn't produced ANYONE himself.... so why would anyone go study with him?

ya you could call me an angry, but people are still defending joel. im not sure how? because playing has nothing to do with teaching... and it's pretty simple to see how someone teaches by their students, and when NO STUDENTS are in full time major jobs, how can anyone compare him to the great teachers???? insane.......

http://www.littlepeoplenetwork.com/SueBlog/trolldoll2.jpg

Childish.

As far as switching bows is concerned, I would just like to cast my vote for Paul's viewpoint. Its really not that big of a deal. I switched to German about a year ago, simply because my teacher could teach me more about german bow than french. When I started studying with my teacher, whose approach to music and to the bass I believe in very deeply, I felt that my french bow playing was at a great level. I had studied french bow with the likes of Homer Mensch, Ed Barker, etc. I feel that at this point, only a year later, my german bow playing has surpassed what my french bow playign was a year ago.

So i suppose the message is simmer down and go practice. If you do, maybe someday you will win a full-time job and prove that you didn't do it by studying with Mr. Quarrington or Mr. Levinson, both of whom have pretty darn good full-time jobs already...

I study with Mr. Levinson and it's true, he is very particular about the way he feels the bass should be played. However, this is not an issue of ego. He truly believes that the way of playing he has developed is the most efficient way of playing. I agree with him, I feel like his technique will help me become the best bass player I can. Who are we to say something that works for another player is right or wrong?

He also has and has had many students playing with a french bow.

...when NO STUDENTS are in full time major jobs, how can anyone compare him to the great teachers???? insane...

Joel Quarrington may be the best bass player and teacher in the orchestral world, but that is only part of the equation. The student must be dedicated, talented, and capable as well.

In fact, I'd say personally that the student is about 75% of the equation here and a teacher shouldn't have to be burdened with transformative powers of the kind you accuse Quarrington of lacking.

There's just not a whole lot of secrets regarding good bass playing. I'd instead argue that if Quarrington's students don't reflect the sort of status one attributes to, say, Levinson, then it's because he's doesn't have the same students with the same goals and advantages. Somebody like Levinson or Ellison are going to have demand for their attention to score an orchestra job, likely more than many other teachers besides Quarrington. What does that mean? It means these guys have a greater likelihood of choosing extremely talented students with a good shot at orchestra jobs no matter who they study with.

Furthermore, Quarrington's more unorthodox way of playing will likely attract students who are more of the unorthodox persuasion. Maybe they don't really want to be in the NY Phil...or maybe they have other goals, like composition or some other focus, but they want to learn from a great player with great technique and musical expression regardless?

no one still hasn't proved me wrong. the comment that he and levison have great jobs, that was never in question, all i brought up was he's an overrated teacher.......

and how

1. how many students has he fully taught and have moved on to major orchestras? none

2. playing 5ths doesn't work in the orchestral world. im not sure how you can prove me wrong, but how many pro's play in 5ths? little to none

3. joel's method's of forcing students to change their tuning or bow is sign that his teaching skills are limited...
- now you could just argue he plays and can teach better with the german bow, but then i'll have to say go back to my first point, if he's REALLY that good, why doesn't he have 1 successful student in the orchestra world.....

i will give you johnny L that his unorthodox methods would attract those type of players, but this thread is asking about who are the best german bow teachers (not players) and i am merely saying that you cannot put joel's name in the real teachers......

"You don't have to have students in many professional orchestras to be a great teacher"

i would agree with this if we were in high school, and this teacher is good at certain aspects at the bass. However this thread is asking about grad schools...so it's safe to say that grad school's is for the best player's out there without jobs looking to tighten up their playing in order to get a orchestral job.......... so cory should joel use this quote i took from you as a marketing tool to wherever he teaches??

everyone can disagree with me that's fine, im not sure what's the fuss about with having someone with a different opinion....

and before anyone question's what i say, please read my 3 points and prove me wrong............

everyone can disagree with me that's fine, im not sure what's the fuss about with having someone with a different opinion....


If you want to bust Joel Quarrington's chops on a public forum, then please muster the testicular fortitude to sign your name to it. So far, all I see is anonymous blather from a new member with an empty profile and dubious grammatical skills. As such, it looks like simple flamebait to me.

I would suggest that everyone consider the source before giving any credence to this person's posts as they stand at the moment.

1) As the original poster (read: asker of the question), I have already stated that landing a major orchestral gig, in my opinion, is far from the the only pinnacle of primarily arco bassit's career. Therefore, your opinions re: Mr. Quarrington may be valid, but you are not doing anything to answer my question.

2) People (mainly me, as I cannot speak for the other participants) would be more likely to see your statements as having some validity should you fill out your profile. I seem to recall a recent thread or two getting derailed by anonymous mud-slinging by very unqualified people. If you feel so strongly, at least be responsible enough to let us know more about you.

3) I am still open to suggestions as I have a DMA to consider once I am done with this MM. I should reiterate: I am primarily looking for a school in the Midwest or the East coast, North of the Mason-Dixon line (but in the States, ruling out Mr. Quarrington). It also needs to have a strong Assistantship/Fellowship program (ruling out CIM - though I don't think they have any German teachers now). I am happily married and would like to keep it that way, which means compromising to find a mutually acceptable location and not putting us in a bad financial situation.

Thank who have contributed positively to this thread.

Matt, has anyone on this thread suggested Paul Ellison at Rice yet? I know he's a french player, but he really does know how to teach German bow. His studio is arguably one of the best in the world, as is the Rice orchestra. He's had several very successful German bow students, including David Moore of the LA Philharmonic.

However, the Rice DMA program for bass is very difficult to enter in to, and as far as I'm aware only one person has ever done it. Still, if you're interested, you could take a look at this page (http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~musi/graduate/dmabass.html).

i will give you johnny L that his unorthodox methods would attract those type of players, but this thread is asking about who are the best german bow teachers (not players) and i am merely saying that you cannot put joel's name in the real teachers...

Hey beerandbass,

You still can't have it both ways. You can't argue the competence of a teacher on the career success of his students while taking away consideration of the students themselves...their own personal talents and intentions.

If you do understand why this doesn't work and don't care, then you are cruel.

It's like blaming your car stereo for intonation mistakes in your own playing, and then demanding a new stereo to fix the problem you know.

Paul, didn't Ellison start as a german player? I was told that he originally played german and then switched to french while studying with Rabbath.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

When I heard him play many years ago he was playing German.

When I saw him last he was using a French bow (it was a really nice looking one too LOL), but would often play it using a German grip even in concert...solo, that is...

The grapevine tells me that he plays German for orchestral stuff and French for solo stuff, but we all know how the grapevine works...

Not well.

I was trying to find information on what Ellison does for bows, and ran across a series of six short video lectures by Paul Ellison that I thought were absolutely fascinating. He highlights all the many opportunities available to young bassists. Check it out.

http://www.owlnet.rice.edu/~navmusic/profiles/paul_ellison.html

Wow! That cleared alot of my misconceptions. Anybody else for an Ellison podcast say 'aye'!

Ellison gave a master class here at UofL last year that I caught a part of. Even though I'm not an arco player, I was very impressed with his whole approach, which emphasized using the trunk of the body to produce sound rather than the extremities. After only a few minutes, most students were pulling a consistently stronger and fuller sound. He was also excellent with his bedside manner, and made everyone in the room feel at home.

Paul, that entire website is brilliant.

Thanks!

...I was very impressed with his whole approach, which emphasized using the trunk of the body to produce sound rather than the extremities. After only a few minutes, most students were pulling a consistently stronger and fuller sound.

I don't know how common that technique is, but it was what my new German bow teacher, Diana Gannett at the University of Michigan, taught me at my first lesson with her. And I can vouch for what a tremendous difference it makes!

I'm not qualified to talk about Ms. Gannett's place in the cosmos of bass teachers, but I believe she's very well respected, and I have so far found her to be a wonderful teacher.

http://www.music.umich.edu/faculty_staff/gannett.diana.lasso

Paul, didn't Ellison start as a german player? I was told that he originally played german and then switched to french while studying with Rabbath.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I heard the same thing. I don't remember exactly who I heard it from but I think it was a credible source.

every time i have seen paul ellison, either giving a masterclass or performing, i have been very impressed. i believe that is correct about starting on german...i have heard that as well, and then he learned french when studying with rabbath. his current bow (last time i saw him anyways) is a hybrid bow designed by grunberger which has a frog between the size of french and german. he can play it both grips and sound great either way. i also seem to remember hearing that sandor learned both bow grips with him when earning his DMA...does anyone know if he has master's students become familiar with both grips as well? enjoy your time with him, paul (cannon). he has an endless amount of knowledge about music and the bass.

He was also excellent with his bedside manner, and made everyone in the room feel at home.

Yeah. The guy's a monster player but he's so encouraging to bassists of any skill and age. How cool is that?

The first time I ever saw him play (around 3 or 4 years ago), he was doing a little tribute to Ray Brown and talked about being very inspired by Ray's playing when he was younger. That's also the first time I ever heard of Ray Brown.

1. how many students has he fully taught and have moved on to major orchestras? none

2. playing 5ths doesn't work in the orchestral world. im not sure how you can prove me wrong, but how many pro's play in 5ths? little to none

3. joel's method's of forcing students to change their tuning or bow is sign that his teaching skills are limited...
- now you could just argue he plays and can teach better with the german bow, but then i'll have to say go back to my first point, if he's REALLY that good, why doesn't he have 1 successful student in the orchestra world.....


You know it saddens me to know that people are being fed this BS about Joel. It's completely reactionary, and only impedes the developement of the instrument. If your teacher taught you to hate others like this, or you and your buddies think your hot or something, you should be ashamed of yourself.

About the points you brought up, I have to say your completely off!

It's true that Joel doesn't have as many big shot students like other american pedagogues, but take into consideration that unlike someone like Bruce Bransby, he usually has about 4 or 5 students. (If we look at the number of unemployed bassists Bruce Bransby has produced, we'd think differently of all this). But having studied with Joel, I can guarantee that there is nobody who cares more about their students than he does and gives them more time or energy. Joel is a true teacher in that he doesn't teach you only about bass for an hour a week, but is a true mentor for the rest of your life. I sincerely believe this, and nothing anyone says can contradict that for me.

And he doesn't have one successful student in the orchestra world? What? Do you live in Canada? Sure not everyone does they're undergrad with Joel, but everyone who studies with him views it has one of if not the most profound learning experiences of their lives. I know Jeff White claims that he learnt way more in his few summers and NYO than his undergrad at IU, with its great reputation and all.

The idea that fifths doesn't work in an orchestra just because it's so rare is also completely wrong. I don't know if you've noticed but when you're playing Beethoven, there's a larger, more musical and in tune section called the cellos that's playing your part in fifths too. How's that for blending? I mean have you ever actually tried a bass in fifths for more than a week? You'd never go back.

Joel doesn't force anyone to switch anything! Knowing Joel better than probably all of you on this board, I have to say this really came from nowhere, and is completely opposite to his character. Some of his best students are french bow players in fourths! His students these days play in fifths more and more because they're starting to see other students doing it with great success, since it kicks ass.

So,
1. You're wrong about this. Players in just about every Canadian orchestra have studied with Joel.
2. You've obviously never heard Joel lead a bass section if you think it doesn't work in orchestra (or you know nothing about music)
3. No student of Joel's--I can absolutely guarantee you--has ever been forced into another tuning or bow.

Get you facts straight before trying to dismiss an alternate school of playing, and an amazing man.

Thank you, Indianmandolin.

+1

Hurrah!

Less beer, more bass.

let's just say he's the highest paid member of his orchestra- MORE then the concertmaster... what orchestra do you know looks at the principal bass to lead the group???


Domenico Dragonetti, anyone?

Wow what a thread. I read a lot but got tired. I am not sure if you found a place or not. Rob Nairn at Penn State is a great player and a monster German player. He has played with Baltimore and Pittsburgh while in the States. He has only been in the States for 6 years so he is not as well known as other guys but he is a great player. He is also a bit on the younger side and really is down to earth with his students. Here is his faculty bio. http://www.music.psu.edu/Faculty%20Pages/nairn.html.

PSU gives great money too....you should contact Rob. Great guy. If you have any questions please contact me. I studied with him for 2 years.

Matt

Wow, thanks Matt. Rob Nairn sounds like a great guy. I would like to take a lesson with him.

Hurrah!

Less beer, more bass.

I must pronounce my indignation that someone chose a user name sounding so close to mine, but "I'll rise above it, I'm a professional.";)

I must pronounce my indignation that someone chose a user name sounding so close to mine, but "I'll rise above it, I'm a professional.";)

bier |bi(?)r| noun a movable frame on which a coffin or a corpse is placed before burial or cremation or on which it is carried to the grave: his remains were laid out on the bier.

beer |bi(?)r| noun an alcoholic drink made from yeast-fermented malt flavored with hops : a pint of beer | I'm dying for a beer.


So you're "CorpseCoasterBass", and he's "IronCityBass"? Got it. Make a note, kids. :)

bier |bi(?)r| noun a movable frame on which a coffin or a corpse is placed before burial or cremation or on which it is carried to the grave: his remains were laid out on the bier.

beer |bi(?)r| noun an alcoholic drink made from yeast-fermented malt flavored with hops : a pint of beer | I'm dying for a beer.


So you're "CorpseCoasterBass", and he's "IronCityBass"? Got it. Make a note, kids. :)

Oof...well...I'm speechless. Serves me right for practicing and not reading dictionaries:D . You see kids, you are never to old to learn. I was using the German spelling of beer. Now I'm a "CorpseCoasterBass". I thought I was a "Contrabass of Beer". I'm having an identity crisis. Maybe I'll switch to German bow(der Monkeybogen).:eek:

Let me offer the highest praise for Joel Reist, Principal Bassist for the Nashville Symphony. Joel plays German bow and is an excellent teacher.

Joel studied with Tony Bianco for undergrad at Carnegie Mellon and Paul Ellison at Rice for Master's.

All this is really odd to me. When I went to Juilliard in 1992, Levinson and O'brien were best buddies. O'Brien almost acted as Levinson assistant. After a couple of years of work, she would tell her students that it was time for them to study with Levinson because he had more to offer than she. They were a real team, and it was great for the students.
I am sad to see that things have changed for the worse.

As far as Levinson goes, I agree that he is an incredible professional, but if you have small hands or a tendency for tendinitis I would not recommend going to him. His scale fingerings were brutal to my hands, lots of 3rd finger in the lower positions (with extensions).

Back to the teacher recommendation, Horst-Dieter Wenkel in Weimar-Germany. Free tuition, cheap cost of living, and the best teacher in Germany. His students are:
-Principal in NDR Hamburg
-Both principals and one section player in Gewandhaus-Leipzig
-Both principals in the Dresden Staatskapelle (the best opera house in Germany)
-the list goes on and on

Warning, he is a psychopath. None of this nice north-american sweet/polite/understanding stuff. I had to leave after a year because of this, but I am a softie.

lol!!! I'm glad you left the psychopath bit till the end and how you had to leave due to it, I was getting my bags packed for germany. :)

lol!!! I'm glad you left the psychopath bit till the end and how you had to leave due to it, I was getting my bags packed for germany. :)

If you can go there, by all means go. This man will change your ears and your playing. Even if you can only stand him for a year, it would be worth it. I went to Juilliard, but I still think I got the best education in Weimar.

http://www.hfm-weimar.de/index.php?lang=en

http://www.hfm-weimar.de/v1/studium/institute/fb1/streicher_harfe/Professoren_/Wenkel_Horst_Dieter.php

Todd Seeber. When it comes to German bow, he's the best. Great teacher, wonderful guy, and always has a lot to say about your playing.

How about Robert Black at Hartt School (CT) - I just started taking some lessons with him while trying to polish up my playing, and he's a fine player - good German technique (I think he used to study with Streicher?)