Hi all!

This is my first post to this fantastic and knowledgeable forum, so here it goes:

I know how to construct a working bassline for a given set of chord changes, but my problem is that I'm having trouble freeing myself from constantly looking at the lead sheet. So, I was thinking that the jazzers at this forum perhaps can give me som advice on how to really "learn the changes and then forget them" as I think Charlie Parker once said.

How did the old masters do it? Were they playing along with records and figuring things out by themselves, or did they have lead sheets or other resources that they memorized?

I find it quite a big task memorizing lead sheets, does anyone have any advice?

Thanks,
Jonas

Learn the tune. Different folks have different things that they focus on to do it, but melody is a good focus as is form. If you know your harmony, digesting the music numberically in light of the form works pretty well.

Here are some steps to consider:

Learn the melody. Be able to hum the thing all the way through. Then play it.

Learn the changes and be able to play the roots and hum the tune.

If you have access to a guitar or piano, then do the above on these.

Put the tune in a few different keys. With me as well as my students, the magic number seems to be three. The first three keys for anything are the hardest and then transposing gets pretty easy after that.

Hi there!

I've also only recently started playing bass (just over a year) and, coming from playing 12 years of classical violin sheet music, had the same problem. (Well I still do, but at least have a better way to work on it)

There are guys who are much more experienced than I am, with much better advice, but what I do helps me:

My aim is to be able to actually hear the chord progression in my head. So that I know the sound of the next chord, not only the name of it. With this in mind, I:
Play the root notes of the progression only. Semi-breves, then minims, then finally crotchets.

Usually after a few times, I've got the sound pretty down pat. By learning a tune by how it sounds, it's much easier to transpose, if need be. All depends on how good your ears are.

The answer is simple: good memory and a fast ear.

The "old masters" learned mostly by ear from records. They had one advantage, though...most "standards" were just pop tunes of the day so they already knew how the melodies went.

I have to disagree with you, Brian. To easily memorize music you have to understand its construction.

I'll add that an interesting thing happens after you learn a few tunes - it gets easier to learn the next one. The harmony of jazz tunes has a lot of common features.

- common forms - blues, rhythm changes, 32 bar, etc
- ii-V7 or ii-V7-I in different combinations
- common turnarounds (1,6,2,5 or 1,6,2,5,3,6,2,5)

After a while you'll quickly sort out the common sequences and the differences between tunes which will make memory easier...

The scary thing about depending on memory (for me at least) is I have a horrible memory, so I'm inadvertently training my ear to survive through a tune or gig. A great example is playing 'all the things you are' or 'stella' late in a 4 hour gig when my memory is shot and I have to rely on the sounds to guide me. I've screwed it up a bunch of times, but I never really screw it up too bad (at least I get called back) and I seem to be screwing things up less and less the more I do it.

Being guided by ear is a great experience. I feel like I'm doing a better job making music when I'm reacting to sounds I hear rather than symbols I see. Its amazing how many nuances I didn't notice when following the page (chord substitutions, simplified harmony, etc)

Jumping in head first and playing gigs or jam sessions with other people works well for me. There's no better way to really learn a tune than to butcher it in front of people and then go home to figure out how to avoid the embarassment next time...

I like my teacher's method.
1. Find the straightest, most white bread version of the melody and changes.
2. With the nome set at qnote=60bpm, learn the melody. Play it over and over and over and over and over til it gets in your ear on you get off the sheet.
3.Put together a CHORD LINE over the changes. A CHORD LINE is just the arpeggiation of the chord change, but with 2 ideas in mind
A. PROXIMITY - use ALL INVERSIONS as well as root position to maintain proximate voicings for the line.
FOR EXAMPLE: D-7 to G7 to Cmaj7 instead of using all root positions D F A C to G B D F to C E G B
use root D F A C to 3rd inv D F G B to root C E G B.
Do you see how you keep two voices constant in each chord?
B. RHYTHMIC PLACEMENT each arpeggiation will fall "in time". In the above example, if the harmonic rhythm is one chord change per bar, each note in the arpeggio will be a quarter note. If there are two changes to a bar, each note of an arpeggio will be eighth notes. If the chord change lasts two bars, each note will be a half note.
Clear?

In the above example if the harmonic rhythm was

// D-7 G7/ Cmaj7 //
that is, two beats of D-7, two beats of G7 and four beats of Cmaj7, then D F A C would be 8th notes, D F G B would be 8th notes and C E G B would be quarter notes.
Clear?

So now you have the melody in memory and your chord line in memory.

4. With the nome set at qnote=60bpm play one chorus of melody, play one chorus of chord line, play one chorus of melody, play one chorus of an improvised walking line, play on chorus of melody.

Pick 4 tunes that you do this with. Believe me, the more concentrated work you start doing with 4 tunes, the more this bleeds over into all the tunes you play.


When I was starting out, I was in the same boat. I wasn't hearing anything, it was just memorizing where to put my fingers or where the roots went. Having some concept of functional harmony is good, because you can read something and see how it fits together and that can give it some meaning and direction for you (oh, this all is just pointing to the IV chord).
But you really have to work at getting to a point where you aren't limited to the page or what you've played before. The sounds you are hearing eventually have to hold some meaning for you. There are tunes i play the I've never heard before, if the piano player knows it well and can give me some basic info (like the key, the first chord and the key center and first chord of the bridge) there's a bunch of stuff I can make it through. If I have to read something, I want to be able to get off the page after a chorus or two. Sure that ain't gonna work to well for me right now on something like PINOCCHIO, but for most stuff in the standard repertoire. So whatever you are doing to work on learning tunes, you should also be spending a lot of time working on ear training - singing and identifying intervals, triads, 4,5 and 6 part chords. Transcribing lines and solos. The goal is to be playing what you hear in response to your musical environment, always with the idea that your input provides direction as well as support.

It ain't enough that you learn how to read a map, you gotta be the one driving the bus.

What Ed & Ray said. And this:

Take the leap. LOSE THE PAGE. When I read, I often put the sheet on the floor, so that after once or twice through the tune I'm looking up and away from the stand. When I'm working on stuff with my kid, I've been known to spin his stand around.

And welcome to the double-bass board, Jonas. Speak right up!

If I'm trying to learn the head, I like to do it vocally first, away from the bass. Usually, I'll just leave the lead sheet laying around and learn to sing it in whatever size chunks I can remember. It isn't long before I have the whole thing internalized, and of course you get better at it the more you do it. Then, assuming you can play anything you can sing, you're in there. The added advantage is that you should be able to play it in any key at this point since you didn't learn it from the usual muscle memory/"correct key" approach. Instead, you learned it intervallically, and it shouldn't matter what key you start in.

I'm doing this very process with Clare Fischer's "Dulzura" as we speak. Tomorrow, I'm gonna go for Mingus' "Bird Calls" :eek:

PS...this works for building bass lines, too...just sing through the changes vocally for awhile, and internalize them. When I do this, by the time I pick up the bass, I pretty much know where I'm going.

Make a decision to start learning by ear. Make sure you can sing both the melody and the bass line of the changes before you try to play. In the end, you want your hands to be guided by your ears, not your eyes. Once you can sing the tune, play it in different keys without concern for the "names" of things - just let what you hear guide your hands. It sounds difficult, but it gets easier once you start doing it. In short, SING!

What everybody said. However, I must add one thing and a word of caution about others.

First, find ways to get the tune into your head using aural devices - get as many recordings of the tune as you can, including versions with vocals. Try to pick up versions by great jazz artists and singers - the "classics", generally the more straightforward treatments, will be more of an immediate aid than abstract versions, but those can help too. Sit down with the chart while you're listening and follow along. As your looking at the music, say the names of the roots as they change. At the same time, envision where those notes fall on the bass. Eventually you can construct a point to point map or diagram in your head, of the sequence of notes as they occur on the fingerboard. Then you can sing the roots with their note names as you listen, follow the chart, and visualize the fingerboard. Now do the same thing but without the chart in front of you. Next, pick up your bass and play whole note roots along with the tune, while singing the note names. Once you can do this comfortably, go ahead and add the rest of the walking line.

I suggest this because it creates a succession of aural, visual, and tactile stimuli to imprint the necessary info into your brain, and all the while you're listening to a real version of the tune, picking up other valuable tidbits along the way (whether you're aware of it or not!)

To reinforce and solidify, it's no big secret - repetition! This can come in the form of practice with generic play-alongs, jam sessions, calling the tune regularly on gigs, etc.

I have to say, while learning a tune in several keys can definately take your understanding of that tune to a deeper level, it makes more sense to me to first memorize the tune in one key before trying to transpose it to others. In fact, the more I think about it, these are separate skills. The ability to memorize tunes is one thing. The ability to transpose a tune that you know is another. You should eventually be able to do both, but let's not put the cart before the horse. I know a bunch of tunes, and I'm fairly adept at playing them in any key. But I never found it necessary or even helpful, in terms of the initial memorization, to play them in more than one key.

Ed, I am a little suprised at the "theoretical" thrust of your suggestions, as you profess to be such a "hear it then play it" guy. As I read your post, it seems that your teacher's method is quite useful for understanding a tune, but other than "play it over and over and over" does not address the question of how one is going to remember the tune once the written music is removed.

But that's why they say there's more than one way to skin a cat! ;)

All these cats talking about the melody are spot on. When you learn the melody to a standard(and most of them are fairly sing-able and repetitious...easy to remember) the side of your brain that was made to memorize gets activated.(think twinkle twinkle little star) Once you know the melody your intellect can drop a whole bunch of info onto that framework and it will stick (like chords, subs, key centers etc.) because it is useful info in relation to something you already know. The theory has a chance to naturally lay itself out on the structure of the tune.
I really dig learning the roots as a melody too. They are more jumpy, but if you sing the melody and play just the roots (dig I fall in love too easily or When I fall in Love) it can be just so nice to dig that counterpoint and really hear those two lines and how they were built.
If you CANT sing the melody of a standard and memorize it, then you need to really ask yourself what you are playing over and where you want to be with the music because ALL the cats who can play have this fundamental ability and knowing melody is a step in learning to play the bass over chord progressions that doesn't have a work around. It does not mean you haveto learn every melody, but it means that the ones you work on you really know...you'll quickly see that it is easy and full of repetition...take "what is this thing called love" for starters the whole melody is just variations on a fragment, but what a tune.
(Listen to Gary Peacock worble out melodies on his video...We are not talking becoming a singer here just accurate pitch and melody)

but my problem is that I'm having trouble freeing myself from constantly looking at the lead sheet. ...I find it quite a big task memorizing lead sheets, does anyone have any advice?



Great thread with lots of useful perspectives - just to say that this is big thing for a lot of people, so don't feel alone there! ;)

At the Jazz Summerschool I aattended in July - none of the bass players there, wanted to get up and play a tune without a lead sheet. So there was this situation on the Sunday night before the week started where it was case of "Open Mic" at the nightly Jazz club with a fair-sized audience - so a few horn players had Bb Real Books and som called standards, but no bass players were prepared to get up and play without something in front of them - although during the week to come, they did some good stuff!!

Needless to say - playing by ear was heavily emphasised by the tutors and in the following week, our tutor only gave us one lead sheet and that was for a Paul Motian original that was very much "non-standard" !! ;)

I have to say, while learning a tune in several keys can definately take your understanding of that tune to a deeper level, it makes more sense to me to first memorize the tune in one key before trying to transpose it to others. In fact, the more I think about it, these are separate skills. The ability to memorize tunes is one thing. The ability to transpose a tune that you know is another. You should eventually be able to do both, but let's not put the cart before the horse. I know a bunch of tunes, and I'm fairly adept at playing them in any key. But I never found it necessary or even helpful, in terms of the initial memorization, to play them in more than one key.



Agreed. I think that transposition is sort of the "litmus test" of whether you actually know a melody, or whether you've only memorized the physical motions which produce it. In other words, once you think you have it memorized, then try to transpose it, and you'll soon find out if you really do.

Coming from a background as a pianist, I am still wary of all of the "knowledge" that I amassed that was really nothing more than ingrained muscle memory. I always found it disappointing to think I knew a song because I could play it, but then discover that I was fuzzy on some of the details when I'd try to sing it. Playing in different keys was my way of making sure that my ears owned the tune, rather than just my fingers. But yes, you do have to memorize first, then transpose later.

Ed, I am a little suprised at the "theoretical" thrust of your suggestions, as you profess to be such a "hear it then play it" guy. As I read your post, it seems that your teacher's method is quite useful for understanding a tune, but other than "play it over and over and over" does not address the question of how one is going to remember the tune once the written music is removed.
But that's why they say there's more than one way to skin a cat! ;)

I think it's more the inability to communicate this methodology typing. Because Joe's method is about getting the tune in your ear (play the melody over and over), the harmony in your ear (play the chord line over and over) and by doing some specific improvisational exercises (that are impossible to communicate effectively except by being in the same room with somebody week after week- you start by improvising a line built of half notes and progress through rhythmic variations in a specifc and progressive way, using rests and melody in a specific and progressive way etc.) so that you reach a point where you hear (internally) the rhythmic pulse, the melody, the harmony and your improvised line all at the same time. Rather than "understanding" theoretically what's going on with the changes.
All i can say is it got me from speaking gibberish to being able to convey some kind of simple meaning in my line and in my solos. And like I said, the work you do on getting deep into 4 tunes spreads out over all the tunes you play. It becomes easier to HEAR where stuff is going, it's easier to internalise form and changes after a chorus or two.

I don't have anything magic to say other than to repeat what Sam said - lose the book. Force your to play all the time without the book and just look at it occasionally if you need to. At gigs, I have my Pocket Changes on top of the amp and if there is a tune I'm not sure about, then I'll glance at it out of the corner of my eye from time to time. You'll be amazed also, when you are absolutely forced to play without music (i.e. someone calls a tune and you have no music and there's not even time for someone to call out the changes to you), you will just have to listen and work it and you might be surprised how well you do especially if you've already learnt a bunch of other tunes and know some of the basic building blocks. Playing the melody and repeating a particular digital pattern (e.g. 1235) over every chord are all good things.

This is a great thread and I completely agree with the notion of loosing the book. If you've played a tune 3 times try playing it without the book. It took me 2 years to believe that i really knew Dolphin Dance because I never attempted to go without a lead sheet. As soon as I did loose the sheet it made a huge difference, now I never look at it and my time, intonation, and ideas are all better for it.
There is one thing I'd like to put in the air though. I feel as a bass player I CAN'T take the risk of not knowing the changes. If I'm the slighest bit unsure of how a tune goes I want the sheet, I've had my fair share of angry horn players at jam sessions glaring at me because I've missed a change.

There is one thing I'd like to put in the air though. I feel as a bass player I CAN'T take the risk of not knowing the changes. If I'm the slighest bit unsure of how a tune goes I want the sheet, I've had my fair share of angry horn players at jam sessions glaring at me because I've missed a change.

But doesn't that reflect more on those horn players - that they are relying on you to feed them changes - maybe you should mention, that it would be quite legitimate for you to drop out for a few choruses to give them more space? ;)

I know what you mean though - when you are playing with others who are less than totally confident, then they are looking to you as bass player and quite often, I have the lead sheet to confirm to myself that I'm right and they've lost it!! :)

A lot of horn players will tell you that they listen to the bass for harmonic orientation, not the chording instrument. I guess they're expecting to hear plain old roots and fives down there.

Sure it says something about their knowledge of the tune, but it also speaks to the bass' role playing that kind of music. I'm with mike on this -- when you sign up to be bass player you are saying "yeah, I can drive the bus. Not to worry." I like to make sure I deliver on that promise...

It ain't just that, BRUISED. It's one thing when somebody plays a note because that's what they hear in relation to the tune and what everybody is playing. What MOOKIE is talking about is playing a note (or line) that you are NOT hearing in relation to the tune, because you are not hearing the tune at all. It's not that the horn players a relying on hearing you "feed" them the chords, it's that you suddenly aren't doing anything that relates to the subject at hand.
Imagine crossing a cold river by jumping from stone to stone. There are a bunch of different ways to get across, you can choose which path to take. But not if one of those "stones" turns into a bubble. You go right through. It stops your path.

But it's almost as bad playing with somebody with the sheet in front of them who doesn't know the tune and isn't listening. They keep playing THAT CHANGE THERE through every chorus, even if it's NOT the change that pianist is using, even if it's NOT the direction the soloist is pointing to, even if it's from the "Berklee" Real Book and is the wrong change entirely. It's on the page in front of them, so you hear it every chorus. I know I've said it before, but here it is again the harmonic progression of a tune is just a FRAMEWORK for improvisation, NOT a straightjacket. Listen, listen, listen. Use your ears. If you don't know it, get the key, the first chord, the key center and first chord of the bridge (or where the second ending goes if it's ABAC) and have the chordal instrument player go through a chorus rubato up front. If you still can't hear it, use the sheet but try to get away from it after a couple of choruses.
And LISTEN.

And DEMON, I don't know if that they are listening for "roots and fifths" so much as they are looking for your line to make some sense. It HAS to convey how you are hearing the tune, not just be notes chosen at random. You have to convey sense, logic, meaning. Not a smear, not the same thing over and over, but "I'm playing that note there, cause that's the note I MEAN to play. Followed by THAT one and THAT one and THAT one, ad infinitum. And the thing I continue to affirm from my studies with Joe is that, based on the amount of work with arpeggiation exercise and ear training coupled with the improvisational exercises, the more you put your ear in charge of your fingers and not your eyes or your head, the more your line grows in a meaningful and "organic" way.

There are lots of charts I have to look at - originals, Miles tunes, Wayne tunes. But the work I do on my ear and approach help me to get away from the chart earlier and, while reading, keep my ears open for the "deviations" from the framework.

...yeah, I didn't mean that these horn players are looking mostly for roots and fifths and that the bassist oughta feed 'em just that. I have in mind some particular players from my world who are probably like players from a lot of TB'ers worlds: amateur and semi-pro and even pro players who are all kinds of good things but maybe don't always measure up to the standards and methods of listening, hearing and playing that you so rightly espouse MR. FEWQUALMS. Your way is the right way, Dear Sir.

Naw, the guys I'm thinking of actually f*ck up from time to time; it's been known to happen that someone might get lost or otherwise disoriented, misplaced, or unconstrued-like. More than just a couple of these schmoes have mentioned to me that they will go to the bass for orientation when they find themselves screwed by bubbles and in the cold cold crick. I think their logic is that the bass guy is mostly handing out roots and fifths. The fact that they will even mention this to you is, I guess, their hornish way of saying they like you or something...

It's a little point. I've got sympathy for the uncertain bassist who, in some circumstances, doesn't want to work without a net.

But I agree wholeheartedly that the fake sheet chains have gotta go. It's pretty much the main thing I'm working on in my jazz work right now -- this thread is much appreciated! From other types of music I know what it feels like to just play freely and I really want to increase my frequency of feeling that way playing jazz.

Ed, I hear what you're saying and have a question. With all the options for substitutions, the speed that things pass, and the possibility that the bass piano and horn could go in 3 different directions how does one keep things straight. I guess my post conveys my lack of understanding on the subject. :bawl:

All really good and interesting advice, thanks chaps

For me, the difficulty is not learning a melody by ear, it's learning it from the sheet. I dont have perfect pitch and I cant sight read well (not yet at least!), so learning a melody from sheet takes me time. I learn by singing and playing a melody note for note and then just play and sing over and over until I remember it. Once I have that melody in my head I do find it much easier to hear the changes as I play them, rather than follow the chart...
Of course, on a new tune each week I'm there clinging onto the chart for dear life cause I cant learn the melody from the sheet in a reasonable amount of time, yet. Interestingly tho, with simple tunes, once the head has been round a few times it does tend to stick in there somewhere... Repetition is a big part of learning and getting things right

When I joined my weekly jazz class (about a month ago), I was reminded of how much jazzers sing, "be-dobe-dwee-ba-dooo" etc... I'd forgotten since the course I did in the summer, and it also reminded me how important it is - how vital it is in internalising music.

All really good and interesting advice, thanks chaps

For me, the difficulty is not learning a melody by ear, it's learning it from the sheet. I dont have perfect pitch and I cant sight read well (not yet at least!), so learning a melody from sheet takes me time. I learn by singing and playing a melody note for note and then just play and sing over and over until I remember it. Once I have that melody in my head I do find it much easier to hear the changes as I play them, rather than follow the chart...


If you're learning the melody by singing it from the lead sheet, you're going about the process the right way. Just keep doing it! I've told the story a thousand times, but one of the greatest musical lessons I've ever learned in my life came from my old undergrad piano teacher, who told me that sight reading is really just "playing by ear through your eyes". The more I work with that concept, the deeper it becomes, and I will always be in her debt for introducing me to it.

Well, I dont have perfect pitch (do many people?), so effectively I'm learning to sing and play the tune at the same time. E.g. I'll read a C and play it on my bass, then sing it, then I'll read an Eb and sing/play at the same time, etc, etc.
Obviously, it's easier to hear "a minor 3rd up from C", than "Eb".
I'm writing my ideas and stuff in notation too, I wrote out the rhythm of the horn part to a james brown track whilst bored at work the other day ;)

It's gonna take me a while, but I can feel it getting easier the more I do it, which is a good thing for sure!

EDIT: "playing by ear through your eyes" - yes, absolutely, I was watching the other bass player in my group the other week (he's a trumpet player as well), he was singing the melody from the sheet, and he's stop every now and then and go back a repeat a section.. like he was reading a novel and found a juicy bit, or a bit he didnt quite understand..

With all the options for substitutions, the speed that things pass, and the possibility that the bass piano and horn could go in 3 different directions how does one keep things straight.
My expereince has been that everybody goes "in 3 different directions" when nobody is listening or everybody is just "plug and play" over what set of changes they have been taught or learned. You keep things straight by listening to what else is going on and by talking to the cats about what you're not hearing before the next gig (or the next tune if you're at a session).
By way of example, at my last lesson i played SEPTEMBER IN THE RAIN with my teacher. I don't have the melody to it, so he was playing the melody (Joe plays piano pretty good for a bass player) and in the head in I could tell something was different in the way we were hitting the first couple of bars of the A section. As soon as we hit the solo, it was easier to hear what was happening and by the second A of the piano solo (since Joe was hitting pretty solid ideas on his changes)i opted to use his changes.
Now the changes aren't so far apart, so you aren't going to make any glaring errors if I use mine and he uses his, it's just going to sound like we aren't really listening to each other (for anybody else that can hear the difference.)

ED - //Ebma7 Abma7/ G-7 C7/ F7 / F 7 /F-7 /Bb7 / and whatever turnaround iii vi or I vi

JOE - //Ebma7 / Bb-7 Eb7 / Abma7 / Ab - 7/ F 7 / Bb7

So you got a couple of areas where you're hearing a #9 in the bass as a passing tone.

But you got to be able to hear that the piano player is going to the IV chord in a different place than you, that there is a little tension between the A and Ab on a few chords. You've got to be able to hear that the piano player is using a diminished substitution, or is using an augemented chord instead of a dominant chord coming out of the bridge. It's not that you sya to yourself "Oh, right he's using a diminished substitution, I should play this note and this note" as it is that the general sound of diminishment (and for dessert...) makes you hear certain things (in your vocabulary) and your ear and internal line generator search for sounds that you can make that will support what you are hearing.

Is that any clearer?

Ed, thanks for the post, it's clear enough for me to see I need some serious ear traing work!
I'm curious, as part of learning a tune, do you ever practice playing all the possible substitiutions?

Ed, thanks for the post, it's clear enough for me to see I need some serious ear traing work!
I'm curious, as part of learning a tune, do you ever practice playing all the possible substitiutions?

No, I don't. When I'm playing with somebody who uses a different set of changes, it's the following

1. I hear what they are doing. If they also hear what I am doing there is some back and forth til we settle on what the "baseline" (not bass line) is going to be. Lotta eye contact, etc.
2. I don't hear what they are doing, but I hear something "different" is happening. Play simply through the section, see if you can track root movement. If they are on the ball, they are going to hear you get "vague" in a section and will simplify the voicing, hit the root movement hard, set up voice leading to the root etc. to help define the progression or chord for you.
3. I don't hear what's happening and no matter what they do I can't hear it. As soon as we finish the tune I say "Where did you go in the -------- section?"

Ear training is definitely where it's at, what you hear with clarity you can play.

What was said early on is correct (somewhat verbatim):
1-take a leap--try it w/o the music. (mentioned by Sam) I learned quite a few tunes by having people yell out changes for the spots I forgot or doing a quick run through in the beginning on the wierd spots. The music is kind of a crutch. Having a gig w/ no music and being in a "must learn" situation is best. You begin to realize that you were keeping it there for the 5-10% you weren't confident about.
2- Transpose tunes--the magic # is three. (mentioned by Ray)This is really on the mark. You really start soaring if you practice all day just transposing melodies and changes. I do this frequently to get in "the zone". There is a sense of bypassing your own self-imposed fear of missing.

3-Try to understand fundamental harmony in terms of typical interchangeable cycles. This makes some of the written chords superflous. (Mentioned by Ed) When you learn familiar chord sequences they begin to apply everywhere for example the first time you realize these are pretty much the same:

Eb D7 Db7 C7 F-7 Bb7 Eb
Eb Ab G-7 C7 F-7 Bb7 Eb
Eb F- G- C7 F-7 Bb7 Eb
A-7b5 D7 G-7 C7 F-7 Bb7 Eb etc.

At the core they are all:
Eb/ stuff.../F-7 Bb7/Eb

Or these similarities:
F7 F#0 G-7
A-7b5 D7 G-7

4. Learn the piano(ofcourse I'm going to say that :smug: )This gives you insight into the texture of certain changes when you hear them and also the previous stuff just mentioned.

3. I don't hear what's happening and no matter what they do I can't hear it. As soon as we finish the tune I say "Where did you go in the -------- section?"
I do almost the same thing. I say "Where the f--k did you go in the ---------section?"
Ear training is indispensable.
A fun exercise: Play a tune you know, in an oddball key, e.g., Body and Soul in 'A', Waltz For Debbie in 'Db'. It's doable if you're really hearing the tune.

Pick 4 tunes that you do this with. Believe me, the more concentrated work you start doing with 4 tunes, the more this bleeds over into all the tunes you play.


Are there any recommendations on the 4 tunes? :hyper:

1.Pick a regular standard tune (i.e. It Could Happen To You or Like Someone in Love..something with changes that occur all the time..i.e. functional harmony)
2.Pick a ballad (maybe Skylark)
3.pick a tune that uses functional harmony but in a different way (i can't think of anyone better than Wayne Shorter for this)
4. Possibly a modal tune to really get the sound in your ear, or a bebeop tune to start to get the language in your ear.
Play all the heads...very important!!!
If you need to write out grids of all possible changes to compare/contrast....For example the first two bars of It Could HAppen
Eflat | E half dim | F -7 | F# half dim|
Eflat Aflat 7|G-7 C7 flat9|f-7 Bflat 7| a-7 D7 flat 9|
Eflat D7| Dflat7 c7|F-7 Bflat 7|A-7 Aflat7|
etc....
A great writer could describe your face 20 different ways, a mediocre one 10, a ****ty one 3 ways...
If you take four tunes and squeeze every last harmonic drop of them, you will truly have a grasp of functional harmony...and then think of thepossibilities of taking the melody away from the harmony...that open up a whole new wold of harmonic possibilities.....

Are there any recommendations on the 4 tunes? :hyper:
Like PET SWAN SONG says, pick'em from the standard repertoire, I would stay away from Wayne, middle 60's Miles etc. just because you gotta learn to walk before you learn to run. My 4 are - STELLA, THESE FOOLISH THINGS, BODY AND SOUL and ALL THE THINGS YOU ARE.
Since you're going to be spending a LOT of time with them, you prolly want to pick tunes you really really like to begin with.

Again, the work I have put into STELLA over the last 6 or so years informs the way I play PINOCCHIO now. It's all about hearing into playing.

I think blues are good for this - the permutations are endless all of which can all be applied elsewhere - oh and rythmn changes (tunes) too. You can't avoid playing either but you probably know the basics and more to give a good starting point.

I think blues are good for this - the permutations are endless all of which can all be applied elsewhere - oh and rythmn changes (tunes) too. You can't avoid playing either but you probably know the basics and more to give a good starting point.
I disagree. Too many choices can be overwhelming. You can take a standard tune without ANY alternate changes, using conventional walking note choices, and STILL the possibilities are endless. This is why Fly Me To The Moon is an "easier" tune to start with than So What, even though So What has only 2 chords. You have to know a lot more about Bass line construction to play consistently good lines on So What than on Fly Me.

While it's true that you have to get around to all of it eventually, and you'd darn well better be proficient on Blues and R.C., it's not necessarily a good place to start, either for walking or soloing. And when you get to those progressions, you should start with the most common variation and establish that as a foundation before you start venturing off into sub-land.

Walk before you run, and crawl before you walk.

T-Bal,
I agree with you in limiting yourself, and not overdoing it! BTW, I know a piano player you used to play with in DC i think...Timo Elliston...I played with him years ago, left the city for 4 years and recently returned ...we've been trying to hook up for a while now to no avail on both our accounts....he said great things about you!

Yeah, Timo is great. Tell him hi from me when you catch up to him!

You guys ought to write a book.
But nobody mentioned about how nice it is to know the lyrics to get you through the standards...as Ed said, knowing one tune is going to effect the way you play the other. It also helps you LEARN the other. It's all about relating one thing to another that already lives in your brain.

I find it quite a big task memorizing lead sheets

Play without the sheets!

I play in a classic rock cover band so I'm thrilled to have the exact bass transcriptions from sources like powertabs.net and mysongbook.com which are great learning tools. However, that tool becomes a crutch as it impedes memorization.

1. I agree with the post that sez "find a white bread version" of the transcription. Just chords so you can know what you are doing. Otherwise your just "parroting" the song. I like to play around with the song until I internalize the chord changes.

2. When I understand the chord changes, I'll start on the note for note learning. It's much easier to learn the notes when you understand what chords your bass notes are supporting.

3. Once you have the song down. Practice without looking at the music. Only then, does your brain go into memorization mode.

Man, so much has been said, sorry if this repeats-

Make sure you understand how to analyze a tune well. If you can look at the changes and quickly see the movement between key centers within the tune, the tune will come much easier. If you can't do this, get with a teacher. This helps you learn the "tune" instead of the "changes".

Definitely learn the heads.

I also like to practice certain easy tunes in all 12 keys. Tunes like Autumn Leaves, Blackbird, Green Dolpihin St and Fly Me To The Moon are good to start with. They have such common progressions, playing these tunes in all keys will help you hear other, more difficult tunes.

playing these tunes in all keys will help you hear other, more difficult tunes.
Sorry, I can't leave that alone. Playing Blackbird in 12 keys will not help you hear UMMG, Fee-Fi-Fo-Fum, Or Tones For Joan's Bones. The only thing that will help you hear those other, more difficult tunes is studying and playing those other, more difficult tunes.

Playing Blackbird in all 12 keys, especially by ear, will help you learn other tunes because it will improve your ear, help you recognise intervals, and familiarise you with common bits of a progression that still come up, if less often, in more modern tunes.

Obviously it won't replace working on the harder tunes, but its good preperation

Playing Blackbird in all 12 keys, especially by ear, will help you learn other tunes because it will improve your ear, help you recognise intervals, and familiarise you with common bits of a progression that still come up, if less often, in more modern tunes.

Obviously it won't replace working on the harder tunes, but its good preperation
Ditto

Sorry, I can't leave that alone. Playing Blackbird in 12 keys will not help you hear UMMG, Fee-Fi-Fo-Fum, Or Tones For Joan's Bones. The only thing that will help you hear those other, more difficult tunes is studying and playing those other, more difficult tunes.

Just a couple of posts ago you said:
"Walk before you run, and crawl before you walk."

The intent of this thread was to help someone figure out how to learn tunes. If you can't play simple standards in all keys without charts, I think it's likely that no one is going to want to listen to you play "Tones For Joan's Bones". I also did not say that once you know Blackbird, you're ready to play UMMG.

There's a few other tunes in the middle.

Tunes like Autumn Leaves, Blackbird, Green Dolpihin St and Fly Me To The Moon are good to start with. They have such common progressions, playing these tunes in all keys will help you hear other, more difficult tunes.
This is flawed logic. You're saying Autumn Leaves has common chord progressions, therefore, if I play it in all 12 keys it will help me hear other tunes which are more difficult. By this logic, the following statement would be true: I can do something that's easy. Therefore I can do something that's hard. :confused:

If you're not talking about UMMG, what specific other more difficult tune(s) are you talking about?

See posts 11 and 14 about the debate on transposition vs. memorization.

I will grant you this: In broad sense and in a roundabout way, getting a handle on some standard progressions, and developing your ability to transpose, will improve your overall musicianship, which will prepare you to take on progressively more challenging tunes. But it is less of a direct cause - effect relationship than you suggest.

I suppose I'm mostly picking nits at your language, but if there's a nit to be picked, I'm all over it. ;)

You guys ought to write a book.
But nobody mentioned about how nice it is to know the lyrics to get you through the standards....

Other people have said this to me, but in the last 4 or 5 years of going to Jazz jams, it's nearly always been a case of - let's play that Freddie Hubbard/Horace Silver/Miles/Joe Henderson/ etc. etc. tune off such and such album - and there are no lyrics!!

I will grant you this: In broad sense and in a roundabout way, getting a handle on some standard progressions, and developing your ability to transpose, will improve your overall musicianship, which will prepare you to take on progressively more challenging tunes.


That's all I'm saying.


I suppose I'm mostly picking nits at your language, but if there's a nit to be picked, I'm all over it. ;)

You need a hobby. I'd rather shed than argue. :)

Peace.

You need a hobby. I'd rather shed than argue. :)

Peace.
I have a hobby. It's called TalkBass. :D

I don't call it arguing. I call it having a worthwhile exchange of ideas on topics related to becoming a better musician.

And peace be with you also.

Other people have said this to me, but in the last 4 or 5 years of going to Jazz jams, it's nearly always been a case of - let's play that Freddie Hubbard/Horace Silver/Miles/Joe Henderson/ etc. etc. tune off such and such album - and there are no lyrics!!
Granted...but your brain needs something to remember, to help it get familiar with new things. If knowing the lyrics to What's New can help you distinguish the second 8 from the last eight, certain similar progressions that you learned using the lyrics will continue that path in new ways.
Bruce, i'm not saying using lyrics is the only way of learning tunes. That is just another tool that can be used.....you're gonna need many tools!

Knowing the lyrics to tunes can be extemely helpful in many ways. For example: a saxophone player friend of mine moved to Long Island a few years ago. I called him and he told me about one night when he went to Manhattan to hear some music. When he was heading back to Long Island he managed to catch the wrong train and ended up in Harlem by mistake. I asked him if it was the "A" train and he replied: "How'd you know that?"

-Scot

Playing Blackbird in all 12 keys, especially by ear, will help you learn other tunes because it will improve your ear, help you recognise intervals, and familiarise you with common bits of a progression that still come up, if less often, in more modern tunes.

Ok, does this translate to the case where I shouldn't write down what I have transcribed, so that the next time if I forget, I have to relearn the tune by ear again, instead of just "referring to the notes"? Assuming that I am concentrating on ear training, instead of learning the songs for gigs.

Ok, does this translate to the case where I shouldn't write down what I have transcribed, so that the next time if I forget, I have to relearn the tune by ear again, instead of just "referring to the notes"? Assuming that I am concentrating on ear training, instead of learning the songs for gigs.

I've heard this argument before, and to me, it just doesn't add up. There is absolutely nothing wrong with writing down a transcription as ong as you don't stop there. A couple of ideas about this:

1) When you are transcribing, try not to use your instrument except to check what you have done. Listen to a bar or two until you can sing it, then write down what you think it is. Then go back and and do it again until you have an entire section (8, 16 bars, whatver you are comfortable with). At this point, you can check it with your instrument and see how close you came. In this way, you can really start to develop your ear.

2) Written music is not the antichrist; rather it's only a blueprint to be used as a memory aid.

3) once you have a written transcription done, make sure you can sing the whole thing - nuances, inflections, dynamics, and all - before you try to play it. Make sure that you make a connection between the ENTIRE performance of the music when you look at it, and remember that written notation can only really convey the notes and rhythms.

Great thread. I have nothing to add . . . .but lot's learn. I posted to be subsribed to the thread. I will read this several times over. I have just started working with a trio and we are building a book. The guitar player and keyboard player already know lots of tunes so I am the one with lots of work to do. They have given me CD's so I will train my ear buy playing along like it was a live show. I suppose I could tune my bass a semi tone or tone and learn to tune in a different position as well. Seem like a good idea to get my ear hearing progressions? Again thanks for the great thread.

I suppose I could tune my bass a semi tone or tone and learn to tune in a different position as well. Seem like a good idea to get my ear hearing progressions?

My I-am-not-a-luthier-opinion: Bad idea. Your bass is designed to operate at a certain string tension. Changing that variable could cause other things to happen, and have serious ($$) results.

I suppose I could tune my bass a semi tone or tone and learn to tune in a different position as well. Seem like a good idea to get my ear hearing progressions?

Eh? I don't get it. Why not just transpose the tune in another key and get the sounds of the progression that way. Much harder and probably more rewarding. I met my current teacher when I was still playing guitar in a jazz class. We did stuff like playing Stella in 6 different keys. What a $!#@#!!! Not an exactly useful skill (unless you play with singers), but it was good ear training to be able to hear the tune in a different way. Especially when you didn't have time to practice that week and went into your solo cold without knowing all the changes. 80% of your solo was just crap, but there was that 20% where your ear was leading you and everything seemed to take off for a brief instant.

...Especially when you didn't have time to practice that week and went into your solo cold without knowing all the changes. 80% of your solo was just crap, but there was that 20% where your ear was leading you and everything seemed to take off for a brief instant.

This last part is what it's all about. You ear doesn't give a rat's *** what key you're in - it just hears the changes in relation to each other. If you can learn to follow the path of the ear in the home key, it should follow that it will work in others as well, especially if you don't lean on the open strings too heavily.

This last part is what it's all about. You ear doesn't give a rat's *** what key you're in - it just hears the changes in relation to each other. If you can learn to follow the path of the ear in the home key, it should follow that it will work in others as well, especially if you don't lean on the open strings too heavily.

Surprisingly, as the NOOB that I am, I'm not leaning to much on open strings and going for mostly what I hear. I'm very much a proponent now if what FOGHORN's approach, and I guess you would be too DURRL. My teach got me into it too.

Speaking of Stella, I've spent two months working it. I'm not going at it as crazy as FOGHORN and what I did is more simplified. I started out playing arpeggio's (with the 7ths) in 4 different inversions. Starting on the root, then 3rds, then 5ths, all ascending then finally 7ths descending. Once that got in my ear I started building my lines on that. Last week I started getting the head down and weave it into my lines. Works great for me. By the time I got the arp's starting on the 7ths, I didn't need the sheet music anymore. If I felt like I was getting a little lost too often, I'd just go back to practicing the arpeggios to get the tune back in my ear.

After all that, soloing just comes naturally and I feel comfortable just going by ear. Since I know the changes more innately now, it's easier to stick to the melody. It's a nice feeling to not have to think about what change comes next, and if I'm off, the resolutions just come naturally. Which makes me think, I might extend this process later to include the upper structures (which is prob like what FOGHORN does) to get those sounds in my ears as well.

My I-am-not-a-luthier-opinion: Bad idea. Your bass is designed to operate at a certain string tension. Changing that variable could cause other things to happen, and have serious ($$) results.

Hi,

I am an EB player with an EUB. I was thinking I would tune my EB differently if I was playing along with an Aebersold to work on transposing or something like that. To get the ear going as well as thinking in II V going to IV Maj and 'stuff' like that. I should come over to the DB side more often.

Steve

Hi,

I am an EB player with an EUB. I was thinking I would tune my EB differently if I was playing along with an Aebersold to work on transposing or something like that. To get the ear going as well as thinking in II V going to IV Maj and 'stuff' like that. I should come over to the DB side more often.

Steve

To practice transposing, you could find a cheap copy of Band-In-A-Box. The comping is lame, sure, but you can plug in any tune in any key and play along at any tempo.

To practice transposing, you could find a cheap copy of Band-In-A-Box. The comping is lame, sure, but you can plug in any tune in any key and play along at any tempo.

Amen. BinaB is excellent for Fuqua technique--playing the tune at a snail's pace over and over and over. Then speed it up a few beats and play it over and over and over. Then speed it up a few beats and play it over and over and over. etc. etc. etc. This is probably not for the impatient--for me it is not a process of hours but of days, weeks, or even months.

By the time you have brought the tune up to tempo, you know the tune. I have discovered that it is also much simpler (but still not necessarily easy) to transpose a tune after learning it this way.

To practice transposing, you could find a cheap copy of Band-In-A-Box. The comping is lame, sure, but you can plug in any tune in any key and play along at any tempo.

Doh! :rolleyes: I have a copy of that somewhere. Great idea. Thanks.

So if I was going to pick 5 to 10 tunes to cover a lot of common changes what would you suggest?

Stella, Autumn Leaves . . . ?

Doh! :rolleyes: I have a copy of that somewhere. Great idea. Thanks.

So if I was going to pick 5 to 10 tunes to cover a lot of common changes what would you suggest?

Stella, Autumn Leaves . . . ?


I don't think it's all that critical which tunes you do. You can find a list of common standards in a million places. Here's a few that I think might help. Hopefully others here will help out too.

Rhythm Changes & Blues, obviously (minor blues too)
There Will Never Be Another You
All The Things You Are
How High The Moon
My Romance
Days Of Wine & Roses
Fly Me To The Moon
At Last

So if I was going to pick 5 to 10 tunes to cover a lot of common changes what would you suggest?

Stella, Autumn Leaves . . . ?

I think Autumn Leaves is the tune that touched me the most, well, I haven't listened to a lot of standards yet though...

I got some of my tune list from here: http://www.worldjazz.ch/play_along1.htm
Well, of course, I just listened to the tunes, and picked those that I personally like. I think its very important to like the song, since we are going to play it over and over again!

There's some suggestions here as well:
http://www.jazzbooks.com/jazzhandbook/Default.htm

But sometimes, I have problems locating the real recording though. Haven't really saw an original recording (is there one? I have got Stan Getz in concert, and Miles+Coltrane's version) for Autumn Leaves!

Great discussion guys, it's very helpful to a schmoe like me. But I want to ask, what is everyone's opinion in regarding to memorizing a tune through chord function? So, instead of memorizing chords or the like, (and we'll assume that one is also learning the melody), you're memorizing that the A section is iim7/V7/I/I etc. etc.

I think Autumn Leaves is the tune that touched me the most, well, I haven't listened to a lot of standards yet though...
But sometimes, I have problems locating the real recording though. Haven't really saw an original recording (is there one? I have got Stan Getz in concert, and Miles+Coltrane's version) for Autumn Leaves!
In a lot of cases, you don't want to hear the original!
In the case of your favorite, Autumn Leaves, The "original" was done by two awful pianists called Farante and Teicher. While one played the melody, the other mimicked the 'falling leaves with real corny arpeggio. You probably can find it on line. But why?
Then there's Bill Evans and Scott LaFaro.

Or the version on "Something Else" ....?

Or the version on "Something Else" ....?
Yeah, but when I listen to 'Something Else', I listen to Bills solo on 'Goodbye', which is my favorite solo, on almost any instrument!
Check it out....it'll kill ya! :crying:

Yeah, but when I listen to 'Something Else', I listen to Bills solo on 'Goodbye', which is my favorite solo, on almost any instrument!
Check it out....it'll kill ya! :crying:

Sorry - if I'm being dense? - but I don't follow this at all - what's the connection and what am I supposed to be checking out? :confused:

Sorry - if I'm being dense? - but I don't follow this at all - what's the connection and what am I supposed to be checking out? :confused:
Weren't you talking about the Cannonball Adderly record Something Else?
I was trying to suggest to you that you might enjoy Bill Evans solo on the tune Goodbye....which is on that same session

Weren't you talking about the Cannonball Adderly record Something Else?
I was trying to suggest to you that you might enjoy Bill Evans solo on the tune Goodbye....which is on that same session


I just went and looked at my CD of "Somethin' Else" and it has Hank Jones on piano and has 6 tracks : Autumn Leaves, Love for Sale,Somethin' Else, One for Daddy-O,Dancing in the Dark and Bangoon.....? :confused:

The Goodbye recording is on the 1961 album with Evans&Cannonball You Know What I Mean.

In reference to harmony. I think it's a good idea to do it by the numbers, however this presupposes you have a clear idea of what the harmony boils down to. Often chord charts can put in avenues and subs that are the chart writer's preference. So if you attach chord function numbers to those you may be complicating matters. It's a good idea to have a solid idea of the basic harmony and what are secondary dominant adds and the key transpositions for any tune. There's a good discussion on a number of things discussed in this thread in Mike Longo's Theory & Musicianship book and some of the highlights are:

Chord harmony and function "The basketball Analogy"
Harmony Boildown ..handling poorly notated chord charts
Ear training and transposing on Stella By Starlight. He cntends that you deal with only the hard stuff--leaps, funny harmonies. The rest--stepwise melodies for example can be handled on the fly by ear

My personal 2 cents on all this technical training is the following. Any type of music training takes into acct 2 contradictory points:
Practice that should not be consciously applied to a live situation. This is when you say "Practice is practice and playing is playing". This would constitute stuff you do that you take on faith will come out when you play. Like technical things or transcriptions you file away in your storehouse consciousness

Practice that emulates the real time playing moment. These are the kind of ideas that you can practice in the manner so that they should occur to you when the moment hits and you are confronted with that bar or music. This is why I have a great difficulty imposing scales or certain types of hyper regimens on arpeggios and the like. The reason is that the stuff of ideas are (should be) your own spontaneous reaction of notes you lay out there. If all this technical **** does not occur to you then in a sense it's worthless because they are not melodic content. You simply don't like them enough to pull them out. If you play them anyway then you might be considered somebody that plays too technically. So unless some type of arpeggio schemes that your learned for ear training you do are really attractive melodically they don't amount to a hill of beans.

Perhaps I am straying from the topic but... what am I getting at here... oh yeah.. My point is why does somebody pursue ear training? There are two viewpoints.. you should be able to hear anything that anybody else is doing.. However you should be able to hear whatever it is you are doing. But you can help yourself out by having good ideas. You hear them because they are good, logical, melodic..whatever. You hear other people that do that the better you get at it. And then you can ignore garbarge too. You may be not be able to hear every note of a poor solo--but it doesn't matter you just feel it's not making it on your own personal instinct.

I just went and looked at my CD of "Somethin' Else" and it has Hank Jones on piano and has 6 tracks : Autumn Leaves, Love for Sale,Somethin' Else, One for Daddy-O,Dancing in the Dark and Bangoon.....? :confused:
No wonder you're confused! It is Know What I Mean that has Good bye.......Sorry Bruce, old age again!! :crying:

No wonder you're confused! It is Know What I Mean that has Good bye.......Sorry Bruce, old age again!! :crying:

Ah well - you've added another CD to my wish list - Amazon in the UK says it's only available on import, however - I'll look out for it at the specialist Jazz shops in London, next time I go browsing!! :)

I do that all the time too. Put albums together in my mind based on personnel. It's a good problem, actually...

Jon

Yeah, but when I listen to 'Something Else', I listen to Bills solo on 'Goodbye', which is my favorite solo, on almost any instrument!
Check it out....it'll kill ya! :crying:
The Gordon Jenkins tune?

The Gordon Jenkins tune?
I'll never forget you, I'll never forget you.
I'll never forget how we promised one day, to love one another forever that way...we thought we'd never say good-bye....
Bridge
But that was long ago, now you've forgotten I know,
no use to wonder why, just say farewell with a sigh...let love die.
But we'll go on living, our own way of living
So you take the high road and i'll take the low
I can't remember this line. :help:
We thought we'd never say good-bye. :crying:

I'll never forget you, I'll never forget you.
I'll never forget how we promised one day, to love one another forever that way...we thought we'd never say good-bye....
Bridge
But that was long ago, now you've forgotten I know,
no use to wonder why, just say farewell with a sigh...let love die.
But we'll go on living, our own way of living
So you take the high road and i'll take the low
I can't remember this line. :help:
We thought we'd never say good-bye. :crying:
Paolo:
But we'll go on living, our own way of living,
So you take the high road and I'll take the low,
It's time that we parted, it's much better so,
But kiss me as you go...........Good-bye.

This is a tune where the music and the words reinforce each other, so the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. It's one of the most compelling tunes I know of.

Get a room, you guys.

Paolo:
But we'll go on living, our own way of living,
So you take the high road and I'll take the low,
It's time that we parted, it's much better so,
But kiss me as you go...........Good-bye.

This is a tune where the music and the words reinforce each other, so the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. It's one of the most compelling tunes I know of.
Thank you for the missing words Darling...
Just ignore Marcus...he doesn't understand the depth of our relationship! ;)

Just ignore Marcus...he doesn't understand the depth of our relationship! ;)
Frankly, I'd be uneasy around someone who refers to himself as The Big Kahuna.

True

In a lot of cases, you don't want to hear the original!
In the case of your favorite, Autumn Leaves, The "original" was done by two awful pianists called Farante and Teicher. While one played the melody, the other mimicked the 'falling leaves with real corny arpeggio. You probably can find it on line. But why?.

Coz probably that's the version that the Jazz Giants first listened to?

Then there's Bill Evans and Scott LaFaro.
Wow, I just got a preview of this, dang, din know there's a version with so many bass in it! Have to transcribe it one day!

Coz probably that's the version that the Jazz Giants first listened to?



Not necessarily - they may have first heard the tune, when another "Jazz Giant" played it at a small sweaty club - or when a pianist called those changes and they actually had to play it!! ;)

I think for any Jazz musicians growing up after the 60s/70s - they are much more likely to have heard : Miles,Cannonball,Bill Evans etc. playing 'Autumn Leaves' than any notional 'original' version?

Or somebody at their local Jazz club/bar - jam session etc.

I think for any Jazz musicians growing up after the 60s/70s - they are much more likely to have heard : Miles,Cannonball,Bill Evans etc. playing 'Autumn Leaves' than any notional 'original' version?

Err, my jazz giants refer to Miles, Getz, Cannonball, Bill Evans etc, whoever which played the song first. ;)

Err, my jazz giants refer to Miles, Getz, Cannonball, Bill Evans etc, whoever which played the song first. ;)

I don't think "first" really matters - but in Miles' case it was probably Charlie Parker (amongst many others) who turned him on to particular tunes - as an example. I think in those days, it was a case of playing with other people, hanging around at their gigs and picking up on what was happening on the scene.

I can't imagine they were searching through stores for records of the "original versions" of tunes...? ;)

Think about it....theses guys had to make a living. Just like us, they were out playing gigs with commercial bands. These bands were playing the 'hits' of the days......they came to the clubs with this stuff saying " Hey, Man this ain't a bad tune" .......on and on.
I'm 62 so I heard many of these tune on the radio, in their original form. You can imagine my surprise when someone called Aumn Leaves on a jazz gig......long before Miles and Bill ever played it.

I don't think "first" really matters - but in Miles' case it was probably Charlie Parker (amongst many others) who turned him on to particular tunes - as an example. I think in those days, it was a case of playing with other people, hanging around at their gigs and picking up on what was happening on the scene.

Well said! for my case, I always wanted to get a ear on the original recording. From what I understand around here, sometimes the giants probably added a lot of stuffs into the standard, which makes the standard much more complex than it originally is!


I can't imagine they were searching through stores for records of the "original versions" of tunes...? ;)

This leads to another question, how many records you own for the songs that you play on gigs? How many percent of the songs, you just read it on the lead sheet and played it straight away without hearing it first played by someone else?

Well said! for my case, I always wanted to get a ear on the original recording. From what I understand around here, sometimes the giants probably added a lot of stuffs into the standard, which makes the standard much more complex than it originally is!

But that's what makes it Jazz and not just a cover band playing showtunes!!

Having said that - it often goes the other way - that is, Jazz musicians have actually simplified a tune for the sake of making the form clearer and easier to communicate - or just because they can!! ;)

A famous example is Gershwin's "Summertime" - which is a very subtle tune, with loads of unusual chords and orchestration 'effects' - but most Jazz versions, I've heard or played have just treated it as a a minor Blues!! :)



This leads to another question, how many records you own for the songs that you play on gigs? How many percent of the songs, you just read it on the lead sheet and played it straight away without hearing it first played by someone else?

If you're asking me personally - I'd say that over 90% of the time - I'm getting lead sheets of tunes I have never heard before, to play on ths spot. So I have several very thick folders, full of A4 sheets of hundreds and hundreds of tunes I've been given and have played.

If I really liked the tune - then I have gone looking afterwards,for recordings by "Jazz Greats" - but then, I have the internet and can search sites like Amazon and specialist Jazz sites to find this stuff. Even 10 or 15 years ago it would have been very, very difficult to find recordings - even if you knew where to look!! Close to impossible - unless you were some kind of Jazz enthusiast/collector/specialist....?

I'm 62 so I heard many of these tune on the radio, in their original form. You can imagine my surprise when someone called Aumn Leaves on a jazz gig......long before Miles and Bill ever played it.

That's the big difference for me - so when I started really listening to the radio and paying attention , it was full of stuff like British "Glam Rock" and Donny Osmond, David Cassidy etc. - and I hated it!! I sought out more underground stuff - heavy rock, prog rock, Jazz fusion etc .

I didn't even know Jazz standards existed - let alone heard any!! ;)

re:Band in a Box/ Play a Longs - I tend NOT to work on improvisational exercises with that kind of support. The LESS you have to rely on (for the harmony/melody/form) the MORE that you have to provide that in your line or solo.The idea is to internalize the rhythm, harmony and melody and be able to hear your line WITH all of that. When you've got a machine or a CD that plays the tune no matter what you play, you have a lot to lean on. And you want to get to the point that you don't lean on anything.

Hey Ed, good to see you're back. I hope you won't take it as an insult if I say I prefer your front. Got any more recordings on the way? I agree with the above for the most part, but still think practicing with accompaniment has its uses, even if the accompaniment kinda sucks.

well, I've never been so affronted.

It ain't that playing along with play alongs is USELESS as much as it doesn't really work on what you need to work on when trying to learn to develop a line (solo or accompanying) that communicates the tune-in-your-head.

As I've said in the past, using a play-a-long as an ear training exercise (ie NOT using the book) or as a "warm up", that kind of thing is cool.

Vis a vis the recording thang - there may be some interesting news in the offing. Will elaborate later.

re:Band in a Box/ Play a Longs - I tend NOT to work on improvisational exercises with that kind of support. The LESS you have to rely on (for the harmony/melody/form) the MORE that you have to provide that in your line or solo.The idea is to internalize the rhythm, harmony and melody and be able to hear your line WITH all of that. When you've got a machine or a CD that plays the tune no matter what you play, you have a lot to lean on. And you want to get to the point that you don't lean on anything.

I think you are talking on your level, and for beginners like me, sometimes I am still struggling to internalize the rhythm, so I have to use a metronome for practicing. Guess internalizing the harmony and melody will come later.
;)

You said metronome just to get me going, right?
I use and recommend using a metronome. In fact that's what I'm talking about, using a nome when practicing improvisational exercises instead of a play along or Band in a Box.

I do the gnome thing but also use my binab with just a drum track.

I think rhythm issues are often one of concentration, memorization and an internal rhythmic vocabulary. And at the risk of sounding like a shrink, students when confronted with an issue over tempo or rhythm can internalize failing at it too much and it will hold them back.This relationship to Ed's point is that--timing improvement has to come from within, and band-in-a box--type situations might result in leaning and recovering at another's expense. Whether this is true or not depends on how developed the student is in rhythm prior to using this practice technique/routine. The CD player doesn't complain but that's besides the point.

Most concentration issues in the physical realm have to do with doing 2 or more things at once. Keeping time is about having a sense of your own playing while having a clear idea of the periphery. My students with the most timing issues tended to be overly focused on their own little world and were the ones most likely to be hopelessly glued to the music and go, "Huh??" when I told them they were in the wrong bar. The ones with the best time seem to have a handle on being able to listen to themselves and everyone else. They also tended to listen to more music and devote a little time to memorizing as they were reading. At times I think this a combination of physical comfort and execution enough to easily be able check out what everyone else is doing and simply to keep playing, while refocusing on the music, a verbal instruction or whatever. A bass player who can keep playing, time when he will arrive on the A string and take a blast of coffee for 2 measures is the guy I will rely on for time :smug: I like to work with people who seek to multitask, not complain that they have too much on their plate. :hyper:

It has been mentioned a bit in this post about the process of internalizing. What is the thing that is internalized and what is the process really like ?The internal rhythm thing often has to do with having a rhythmic vocabulary and having the experience of expressing it consistently in real time and succeeding in staying on track. You then can put this in the background of your consciousness and learn new stuff. Phrases begin to take shape and you begin to have an internal sense of which beats follow in the spaces the more rhythmic vocabulary you develop. I think that many cultures (for example call and response) work at expressing this particular aspect of themselves. If you are intellectually inventing music and rhythms from scratch you are devoting a lot of brain space to the current activity and you might lose focus on everything else.

My father used to mention how he used to take any phrase and with a metronome or record going and practice tranposing it rhythmically to another beat. He did this because of this fascination with Charlie Parker. Anybody who has heard him will testify that this is one of his most significant achievements as an improvisor. What he was doing though is was what we are talking about. Trying to internalize the feeling and sound of new rhythmic phrases which felt different now because it was transposed. His goal was to be able to pull this sophisticated idea out of the hat because he already woodshedded and internalized it naturally.

"used to take any phrase and with a metronome or record going and practice tranposing it rhythmically to another beat."
That's a Lennie thing too, Warne and Lee and just about everybody else coming through that tradition pratices that kind of "displacement".
"The internal rhythm thing often has to do with having a rhythmic vocabulary and having the experience of expressing it consistently in real time and succeeding in staying on track."
Joe talks about having a "visceral feeling" of what it's like to play improvised lines (solo or comp) against a rhythmic constant (nome), so that when you are in the heat of the moment you aren't trying to get to an intellectual construct, instead you are trying to get to the "good feeling" of the relaxed, stable time feel the exists under whatever anybody is playing.


For those of you who don't know this (http://www.svpproductions.com/jr.html) is Jon's dad.

You said metronome just to get me going, right?
I use and recommend using a metronome. In fact that's what I'm talking about, using a nome when practicing improvisational exercises instead of a play along or Band in a Box.

Hmm, this is how I look at it. If I have internalized the rhythm, I would be able to hear the nome for like 4 bars, and then shut it off, and then play, counting myself, that's what I understand by internalizing the rhythm.

Same goes for internalizing the harmony, if I have internalized the harmony, I would be able to hear the changes for like 4 times, shut it off, then play, hearing the changes in my head.

Well, I couldn't do both the above, _yet_, so should I still depend on the nome and the play-along? :confused:

For those of you who don't know this (http://www.svpproductions.com/jr.html) is Jon's dad.
Also, for those who don't know, please go to the Sampler and download Ed's entry 'Dedicated To Bill' from Jon's CD 'Before I Close My Eyes' with Eric Halvorson on drums.
I use to listen a bunch to Jon's dad in the old days. In Jon's playing, besides hearing his Dad and Bill, I can hear things that really attract me to a pianist. In my opinion Jon's the finest pianist to come along in this genre for many years!
Mr. Fuqua's no slouch either and with Eric, provide some of the best trio playing i've heard in a long while.
Thanks for your input on TBDB Jon!

Thanks for your input on TBDB Jon!

Another fan here :hyper: Jon (and Eds :eek: ) latest have been printed off and taken tothe practise room.

:D

Re:
Same goes for internalizing the harmony, if I have internalized the harmony, I would be able to hear the changes for like 4 times, shut it off, then play, hearing the changes in my head.

Well, I couldn't do both the above, _yet_, so should I still depend on the nome and the play-along?

I think what you are doing is akin to quizzing yourself and expecting more than is in there. For example if you heard a clock ticking and then a few minutes later tried to emulate the 2nd hand at 60 bpm. It doesn't really work. Human beings are more physically and emotionally oriented to associative reference points in terms of memory. Trying to time it like a machine makes humans second guess.

What you are talking about is memory and they are ways the information takes and like most memory exercises the more associative the better. For example if you hit a tuning fork and stick it in your ear. When you imagine the act that you did of striking the tuning fork and the sensation as the sound grew in your ear, it helps you imagine more accurately that “A”. The more you do it, the more firmly that image gets implanted. That was Paul Hindemith's notion. The graphic stuff is my interpretation based on my own experience.

On the issue of tempo, it has to do with "liking" a tempo. You like a tempo when you have a strong sensation of wanting to tap your foot at a particular tempo. This is why some people move the tempo to where they want it. Chris Fitzgerald and I were having a discussion about this on another post. The easiest way to memorize a tempo is to associate it with a tune you like. For example in the other post I mentioned the instrumental intro to Frank Sinatra’s version of Just One Of Those Things. I have such a positive feeling about that version that I can imagine the pitch and the tempo of that rendition very clearly, plus the muted trumpet, etc. and I tap my foot accordingly.

In a nutshell develop your imagination and use it in this process. I know this sounds somewhat nuts but I think the idea of developing from within is important in this process. Internalizing has to do with really understanding what’s there, right?

re - aw shucks

What you say about association and developing imagination in doing so to remmember things concurs with books by memory experts such as Tony Buzan (he may not be well known in the states but you must have simmilar). This memory stuff is of course not musical but the principals must surely be the same I guess here? The advice also is that the more obtuse the associations the more you are likely to remember it. Having said that, one technique for memory is to associate a series of things to be remembered with a series you know inside out without thinking about. I have noticed little done in this area where the predominant method for memory in music thatgets taught still seems to be repeat things ad-nauseum.

I will now retire whilst people point out all the stuff I'm missing!

If I have internalized the rhythm, I would be able to hear the nome for like 4 bars, and then shut it off, and then play, counting myself, that's what I understand by internalizing the rhythm.
That's not really what I'm talking about. You aren't trying to "memorize" a rhythmic value, you are trying to "feel" what it's like to play/improvise with a relaxed feel, putting your phrases where you want them and do it in time against a constant. I'm not trying to get to 120bpm, I'm trying to get to a good feel and keep it there. And since I practice doing that against a constant, it's easier to do in the heat of the moment.

Same goes for internalizing the harmony, if I have internalized the harmony, I would be able to hear the changes for like 4 times, shut it off, then play, hearing the changes in my head.
Again, that's not really what I'm talking about. Hearing a progression is about hearing root movement, chord quality and (to some extent) chord function. I'm not trying to memorize where a tune goes to the IV chord, I'm trying to HEAR where it goes to the IV chord. Which is why I like to work on tunes AWAY from any sort of "crutch" - I learn the melody, I play the chords as a chord line (arpeggiations using all inversions to maintain "proximity" of fingering) in time and work on a variety of improvisational exercises to develop my internal conception and the ability to "hear" what's going on harmonically. Not listening to something over and over to "memorize" it.

Like with ear training, you don't sit at the piano and play a diminished triad in second inversion over and over, trying to memorize the sound. You work on the ability to HEAR what you are playing (or someone else is playing) with enough clarity that you can sing the notes you are hearing. And that the relationship of sounds locks into an identifiable "constellation" that means "2nd inversion diminished" without you having to think about it. The same way you don't have to look at a sign (while you're driving) and say to yourself "hmm, it's red, it's hexagonal, it's got a word on it and that word is S T O P. Oh, I should stop."

Well, I couldn't do both the above, _yet_, so should I still depend on the nome and the play-along? :confused:

Continue to use the nome in a focused ad consistent way, use the play alongs to play along, develop some other exercises based on what you've heard here to help ear training and approach to a more "free standing" way to play standard progressions.

[b]

For those of you who don't know this (http://www.svpproductions.com/jr.html) is Jon's dad.


This made me realise, that I saw Jon's brother last night!

So, the Brighton Jazz club had the Damon Brown/Doug Raney Quartet playing - very nice gig - well-attended - big audience reaction.

http://www.ali.mistral.co.uk/4thListing.html

Doug played some very nice guitar, but was self-effacing - I went up and talked to him briefly afterwards and asked him if he had a brother in NY - which surprised him I think! :)

So anyway - he said to say hello from him - next time I was on TB!

Hello to Jon from your big brother!

Isn't it a small world? ;)

What's up with the two different spellings of Raney/Rainey ?

What's up with the two different spellings of Raney/Rainey ?

Yes that threw me off until I saw Ed's link to the same Father; probably some spelling mistakes by UK Jazz clubs who are more familiar with other "Rainey"s (?) - good gig though, but it did feel a bit weird talking to Doug in Brighton and realising there is a connection to people in NY, that I wouldn't have made, without TB - as I said the internet makes it a small world! ;)

[PS - you can see from here :
http://www.damonbrown.co.uk/performances.asp that it was the last night of their UK tour :) ]

Yes, it is a small world! It's funny I was just aimlessly metasearching for my brother's name on Friday and I saw that gig mention on a pdf document buried really deep in the search. I wasn't sure about the date though. I saw the November ref but wasn't sure if it was last year or this year. Anyway I haven't really been able to get in touch with him because the last cell phone# for him I have is not working.

The Rainey/Raney thing is probably because of the Welsh (?) origin of the name and the several spelling variations of the family name are definitely from the UK. I remember seeing some type of coat of arms somewhere...

So he was in good form as usual?

Yes, it is a small world! It's funny I was just aimlessly metasearching for my brother's name on Friday and I saw that gig mention on a pdf document buried really deep in the search. I wasn't sure about the date though. I saw the November ref but wasn't sure if it was last year or this year. Anyway I haven't really been able to get in touch with him because the last cell phone# for him I have is not working.

The Rainey/Raney thing is probably because of the Welsh (?) origin of the name and the several spelling variations of the family name are definitely from the UK. I remember seeing some type of coat of arms somewhere...

So he was in good form as usual?

Yes - although he complained at the end, that his guitar was going out of tune - I didn't really notice it and all his contributions sounded perfectly in tune, very tasteful and apposite!

I thought I would be most interested in Dave Green - great DB player - but I ended up sitting opposite Doug and being fascinated by how he chose chords to comp and where they all came from! It's so different when you get a quartet with just guitar rather than piano - it was nice for the bass solos and generally there was a lot of space in the sound of the group. :)

I liked all his solos and I only noticed one "quote" !! ;)

I talked to him afterwards as we had some common ground - as my cousin lives in Denmark and Doug said how this tour reminded him of why he moved there, as Britain is so crowded!! So, the band was in Nottingham the day before which is not one of the biggest in Britain, but Doug was saying how it was impossible to find parking spaces - much like in Brighton, where I live!!

I think he said he had an email account at hotmail - but being on tour doesn't allow him to check it much....?

PS - to bring this thread back on topic (sorry!) - I was sitting right by the stage at the gig I was talking about above. So - there was the great British bassist Dave Green and just before the start, the band leader handed out a load of A4 lead sheets to Dave - although Doug Rainey didn't seem to need any - except at one point where Damon Brown announced one of his own tunes and gave Doug a single A4 sheet at that point!! ;)

I think it was because there were some written parts where the bass had to play in unison or just had written sections - but maybe some people memorise more than others?

What's an A4 sheet? I don't get out much.

What's an A4 sheet? I don't get out much.

It's just the "normal" size for a piece of photocopier or computer printer, paper. (So, band leader will copy his chart)

Sometimes you see A3 - which is like two sheets of A4 stuck together side by side!

Most Jazz tunes - lead sheets - will fit on one side of A4 - complicated arrangments = A3 !! ;)

I have been given arrangements with 5 sheets of A4 stuck together !! :eek:

Bruce, in U.S. they use different codes for paper sizes... :D
Paul, check your computer´s print settings, you´ll find an A4 there!
Funny.

R2

The nearest US equivalent to A4 is foolscap - A4 is not quite as tall and slightly broader.

It's wild hearing about all this stuff.
Re: charts. Doug prefers to play by ear. He's not a great sight reader, neither of us are really although I might be slightly better at it. Our father used to ride us about that-especially me since I went to music school :rolleyes: He doesn't want a chart unless it's really involved and he picks it up by ear really quickly and usually stops looking at it.He also knows tons of tunes from having learned them on the job from established players.
Re: sound, intonation. He's very particular about his sound and that he inherited from my Dad. In fact he might even be more picky. This is something that other guitar players should take note of.
Re: his comping. His comping--to me is frankly stellar. Both in rhythm and his almost telepathic sense of where to play in the spaces (his comping on Raney 81 really shows that) He used to make tons of comping tapes for himself to play and jam against. The time-one of his strongest suits didn't move. My timing is very good and has improved with age--but not like his which was rock solid before he could really do anything. My father used to be that way with time--he was like a metronome and he would give you laser beams when you moved it :eyebrow: Doug's time is more flexible and funky but you really feel the tempo when he plays or comps. In fact I remember this tape of him playing in 1975 with my Dad and a bass player(I'll withhold his name) and no drums. The bass player's time was all over the place but as soon as Doug comped--it just locked it in. His soloing was not developed at that time--but you had Jimmy Raney covering that front
Re: comp-laining. Ha. This another of his stong suits. It runs in the family and in NY :D I think I might be a polyanna next to him though :)
Anyway most of this is off topic I guess :bassist: Perhaps I should cut and paste it to the Metronome discussion.

Yes the comping really fascinated me - anyway, as to Topic, hopefully Sam and Chris will allow us a little leeway - in the spirit of TalkBass!! :)

Yes the comping really fascinated me - anyway, as to Topic, hopefully Sam and Chris will allow us a little leeway - in the spirit of TalkBass!! :)


Absolutely not. This thread is supposed to be about getting away from lead sheets. Therefore, anyone who posts about anything else in this thread will be rounded up and summarily shot. Now go have fun, dammit!

Absolutely not. This thread is supposed to be about getting away from lead sheets. Therefore, anyone who posts about anything else in this thread will be rounded up and summarily shot. Now go have fun, dammit!

Wayull, if'n we ain't gonna git shot til summar, we kin still post bout t'other thangs.

Of course, given the thread topic, I'd have to say that folks can talk about just about anything as long as they aren't looking at a lead sheet while they're doing it...

Back on topic, I was working with a (piano) student today about learning to play tunes in all keys. Basically, you try to do it by ear, but when your ear fails, you can resort to learning the function of the chords in Roman numerals without the actual note designations, then the transposition is much easier. What my student found is that after the first keys, the process again begins internalized, so that the intellectual process becomes only a stepping stone. (A beginning student would likely take much longer to begin this "internalizing procedure" to the point where he could start playing in all keys immediately, however)

FWIW, I find the process of instantly transposing to all keys much easier on the bass, as memorizing the melodic motion of the bass seems easier than remembering both that and the specific voicings involved in the heat of the moment.

It's wild hearing about all this stuff.
Re: charts. Doug prefers to play by ear. He's not a great sight reader, neither of us are really although I might be slightly better at it. Our father used to ride us about that-especially me since I went to music school :rolleyes: He doesn't want a chart unless it's really involved and he picks it up by ear really quickly and usually stops looking at it.He also knows tons of tunes from having learned them on the job from established players.

Yes - Doug must really know a load of tunes. Damon Brown is a trumpeter and picked a few tunes which were fairly obscure, by his favourites (obviously) - like Blue Mitchell - but Doug seemed to know all of these very well, while Dave Green did look at a chart.

Maybe there really is a different tradition between the US and UK? I see lead sheets quite frequently used by UK musicians - even those regarded most highly, but whenever there are any US musicians. they don't seem to....

Maybe there really is a different tradition between the US and UK? I see lead sheets quite frequently used by UK musicians - even those regarded most highly, but whenever there are any US musicians. they don't seem to

Could be. US jazzers might be ahead of the curve in Europe in terms of which “no chart” call tunes are totally played out and which ones are the new no chart bandstand call tunes. My brother learns tunes from records, especially hard bop tunes from Joe Henderson and other Blue Note records. If he’s heard the tune he can fake changes by ear pretty easily.

If he’s heard the tune he can fake changes by ear pretty easily.

Sounds like somebody else I know....

Could be. US jazzers might be ahead of the curve in Europe in terms of which “no chart” call tunes are totally played out and which ones are the new no chart bandstand call tunes.

I can't speak for the Europeans, but we just had a gaggle (slightly more than a bushel) of Russian jazz players in an exchange program here at the U., and they definitely did NOT enjoy playing without the lead sheet on tunes they didn't know exactly. It was interesting, because they kept asking (through the interpreters) "what chord goes there? That's not what you played last time!" if you played any subs at all. Skewed sample to be sure, but kind of interesting nonetheless.