Hi,

I am in a trio with a working cover band.

On some tunes the drummer is right on and on some others he is either too fast or more likely too slow.

Is making a drummer play to a click an offensive thing to do?

Could any of you who had experience in this situation advise me on what to do about it?

I like the drummer as a person and he is pretty damn open minded with the material we choose to play.

I'd hate to have him be let go over something that a $50 piece of equipment can resolve.

Help!

:hiding:

I had the same problem recently in my band.

Conclusion : bad timing is not something you'll be able to cure just by plugging your drummer to a click during reharsals.

However, he will greatly improve if he uses the click as a practice tool. You will too, btw.

There are tempo meters that attach to the snare drum. One brand is called the "Russian Dragon" (it's a pun, doods). Better idea than asking him to play to a click!

Is it tempo that's the problem or reliable and consistent timing? If it's the latter, he is not a good drummer and you have a problem. If it's simply tempo, set the beat for him at the beginning of the tune.

Lots of drummers work to clicks, especially if there are sequences going.
It's a skill all drummers should cultivate, so it wouldn't hurt to have him do it, but there's no guarantee he can. Apparently it can be pretty tough to learn in the initial stages.

Most frequently a drummer is called upon to play to a click during recording sessions. You could tell him it's practice for future recording... or something.

I use one on songs with sequenced keyboard lines, like Rush's 'Red Sector A' or Depeche Mode's 'Enjoy the Silence.' You really have to lock in and be able to hear those keyboard lines to keep it tight.

That brings up another issue though; monitoring the click. How would he do it? Headphones? Earbuds? Can take some getting used to. Would you all monitor the click, or just the drummer? If he's having trouble now, it could take time to get used to the click. You might not want to rely on him alone at first.

Our drummer plays to a click for rehearsal and live performances. It only took a week or two for him to get use to it. We found that it really improved the tightness of the band. It is also great for locking in a tempo that really suits the song. Amazing what difference a few beats +/- can do to a song. We use the the tama metronome. It's super easy to set the tempo and you can save tempos in order for playing live.

Another option that you may want to consider is to take the tempo out of his hands by using sequences and loops. YOU become a loop guy, playing looped basslines or sequenced samples, and make him play to them. It may change your band around music-wise, but you might just try it for a while as a learning tool for everybody.

"Russian Dragon" (it's a pun, doods).
I get it! :D

Who's singing these songs with the wrong tempo? Usually, the singer will get steamed if the tempo is "wrong". It messes up their phrasing and breathing etc...

I would try to fix the tempo problems with rehearsals. If that doesn't work, work on some signals to use on stage to tell him to speed up or slow down. If he doesn't come around on his own after that, then...

...Drummer Wanted!....

There is no such thing as a "good" drummer with "bad" timing.

If, by good, you mean he can play some awesome things, then have him cut back and play it more straight until he gets the timing down.

There are alot of drummers who can keep time until they try to get fancy and then lose their sense of timing. Have him play it up straight for awhile. It might be boring, but it is effective.

I can't tell you how many drummers I've played with where I had to play harder and faster or lighter and slower to get their tempo corrected. Usually in rehearsals, I'll tell them to play it straight for a while and that usually fixes the issue.

But every "good" drummer I've played with had excellent timing and some of the best were the ones that had great timing, even if they weren't fancy.

There is no such thing as a "good" drummer with "bad" timing.

Amen, brother. Amen. In my 15 years of band experience there is no middle ground with drummers. IMHO, Either you got it or you don't.

Amen, brother. Amen. In my 15 years of band experience there is no middle ground with drummers. IMHO, Either you got it or you don't.

So true. Timing is everything. A drummer needing a metronome? The drummer is supposed to be the time keeper for crying out loud. A drummer who can't keep time is like a bass player that can't hold down the bottom end. Useless. :)

Thanks for the replies.

We have in-ear monitoring so the click(if we get him to do this) would be heard by all of us. I've been told(and I've read here also) that this tightens the band overall to boot. I'm all for it if it helps.

Great, now for the hard part... hahaha

Do we just go ahead and force it or do we reason with him?

Is it silly to bother using it for some tunes or for all tunes?

Again, I value the feedback.

DaftCat

If you just tell him his timing sucks, then it'll hurt his feelings. If you put it on all of you, it's an easier pill to swallow. Say, "Hey, we're all rushing through some parts, WE need something to tame the tempo. Let's all listen to a click."

If he's resistant or has his ego bruised, then prove it to him by recording a practice, setting a metronome to the tempo the song starts at, then listen to both the metronone and song. Once he sees how loose he gets, he should wise up.

are you saying he starts them too fast or slow, or he starts slowing down or speeding up during the song?

Well, if he just starts them too slow or fast, then that's not a big deal. Well, it is, but it's easily corrected.

But if he's all over the place during the song, that is something I've never found to be corrected without replacing the drummer (unless he tries playing it straight and can hold the time that way...then there is something to work with).

I've found over the years that there are good and bad drummers...and all the good ones I've worked with had an impeccable sense of time. The bad ones never developed a good sense of time, no matter how much they tried (not while I played with them anyway).

But sometimes drummers will start a song too fast (which can make it very difficult for the guitarists or singers to play complex parts), but that's not really a bad sense of timing...it's just not knowing the appropriate speed to start off with. It's easily changed.

How can you tell if a drummer is knocking at your door?
The knocking gets louder and faster

Great advice thus far, so let me ruin things by adding some of my own :D

Make sure you guys are counting in the song properly. If he's counting them in then he shouldn't have an excuse. If you guys are make sure you're counting clearly and indicating the tempo/feel with your count.

Is the drummer leading or is he following? If the drummer is following you guys then something is gonna give. He'll adjust to you, then you to him, then him to you, etc. Drummer should lead and set the tempo, feel, and volume. Let him know that you are following him, and counting on him to keep things together.

How are is his fills? This has to be the one spot that I see drummers tending to speed up. The guy goes from playing 16th notes on the toms, to going back to 8th notes on the hats. The guy can't seem to get control of his hands fast enough and the tempo goes up a few BPMs. Just like when you are driving a fast moving van, you can prepare ahead of time to stop or make a turn instead of slamming on the brakes and going past the stop light. Being able to do fills while keeping the groove and tempo takes practice.

Nip the problem when it happens. Don't wait till the end of the song to tell him where he's speeding up or slowing down, tell him soon as it happens. Stop the tune and work that piece over again until the tempo is right. If it's the transition from the bridge to chorus that's causing everything to speed up, then work on that over and over. Have the drummer count in the segment of the tune so he internaizes what the tempo and feel should be.

Love the answers. I sure hope others just reading the thread(not answering) benefit from this discussion also.

I've made up my mind that we are going on a click. I don't really dictate how things go in the band, but I am sorta the Yoda in the crew.....and Yoda is going to speak next rehearsal. :)


jive1: Yes, I notice when some fills kick in the tempo goes up and it is noticeable(especially to the singer).

xush: Usually at the beginning, but I've noticed some tunes slow down a tad toward the middle/end.

mo'phat: I think I'll do just that. I prefer to me more tactful at changing something rather than the "do this or you're canned" way.

[QUOTE=jive1]
Drummer should lead and set the tempo, feel, and volume. Let him know that you are following him, and counting on him to keep things together.

I'd just like to add one thing to jive's excellent advice.

Your first and foremost job as a bassist is timing. Yes, as Jive said the drummer should lead and set the tempo, feel, etc., but its an equally shared responsability once the tune gets going.

If he is going off time/tempo, it is your job/responsability as a bassist to keep true to the time and keep it all locked down. If he is a good drummer like you say, then he'll catch on and adjust his tempo as Jive stated.

If he doesn't then, he's not worth a hill of beans as a drummer and you are better off without him.

Using a click in practice is absolutely recommended. Even when the problem goes away you should work to a click every once in a while. It does a lot of good.

What you shouldn't do (IMO) is use one live. Using loops live is a good suggestion, but even that can be a bad idea unless the loops are really cool and they add to the music.

The advice you were given regarding the flashy drummer with bad time needing to lay back is probably the best starting point. Don't rule out the idea of him ramping his flashiness back up, but he definitely needs to cut it out until he's solid. I was lucky enough when I started drumming that before I got really good on the kit, I did a summer in drum and bugle corps. Our drumline had a decent show and we were rock solid. Other corps had flashier shows but they took heavy losses in the points department because they didn't bother to work on the timing. As I started playing drums in bands this lesson stuck with me. I luckily didn't have to learn the hard way. :)

One of the best pieces of timekeeping advice I've seen on here (in multiple threads) is to record yourselves and listen back with a critical ear. The tempo issues will be obvious and everyone will know right away whose fault it is.

One thing that needs to be addressed is the whole "the drummer is the one responsible for the time" thing. This is not a good attitude to have. EVERYONE in the rhythm section is responsible for keeping time. That is why bassists and guitarists practice to metronomes too. The drummer may be the loudest at a show but time is a team thing.

What you shouldn't do (IMO) is use one live.

One thing that needs to be addressed is the whole "the drummer is the one responsible for the time" thing. This is not a good attitude to have. EVERYONE in the rhythm section is responsible for keeping time. That is why bassists and guitarists practice to metronomes too. The drummer may be the loudest at a show but time is a team thing.

Why not use one live? Plenty of drummers do, and you don't have to be a slave to it. You can still push and pull it, though I wouldn't really get into that with a drummer such as this thread is about. That's a bit further down the road...

Most bands I've played with expect the drummer to set the lead. A timid drummer, just following along, doesn't really do anyone much good. Sure, everybody's working together, and is responsible for keeping in time, but I think generally it's the drummer who's expected to set that time.

First and foremost, I don't know anything about playing the drums. I only know what I like to hear in a drummer.
1) The obvious. They must be able to play in time at the right tempo all of the time.
2) A good sense of dynamics
3) Creativity

I hate to have to say this but you may just have to tell him the cold hard truth, especially if he doesn't respond well to sugar coated suggestions. If he doesn't respond to the cold hard truth then he may have to be replaced which is unfortunate if he truly is a good guy.

I once worked with a guitarist who at first listen seemed as though he was a really good guitar player. The problem was that he was over indulgent and repetetive in every aspect of his music. We were trying to come up with what I would describe as "three to three and a half minute heavy yet radio friendly pop tunes". He only wanted to play in dropped-D and he felt as though it was absolutely necessary to play a lead that lasted at least 16 bars in every song. His leads sounded the same from one song to the next. It just didn't work with what we were trying to do. We gave him suggestions and he didn't listen. We recorded our rehearsals to try and prove our point to him as well as convince him that it was not a good idea for him to sing backup. We finally had to just tell him the truth. All of this was to no avail. We finally had to let him go. The part that sucked the worst was that he really was a cool person. He had been playing for 15 years. We replaced him with someone who had been playing for a year and we sounded better immediately because the new guy just understood what the songs needed to sound good. The guy we let go was pissed but he ended up finding a blues/gospel gig that he fit in with really well.

Sometimes we spare people the truth because we don't want to hurt their feelings. In doing so, we create a lack of communication which in turn creates a breakdown in our interpersonal relationships. When this happens, the relationship, whether it be a friend; significant other; co-worker or a band, is doomed to fail.

Why not use one live? Plenty of drummers do, and you don't have to be a slave to it.
Because playing to a click without making the song sound dead and mechanical is an art. If this guy is having trouble with more basic stuff, chances are that they are trading one problem for another if they start relying on a click live. One solution to that is to use a click extensively in practice (with some time without it of course) and then not use it live.

Note: Earlier in the thread the talk was of everyone in the band using the click. At this point, you are a slave to it. If the drummer has a click which isn't obnoxiously loud and he is only tuning into it part of the time, it can work. But this is part of the "art".

It's a common opinion that bands whose members use clicks live just don't sound as good. I share that opinion, at least in general. There are bands who do it well, Rush being one of them. But it works for Rush in part because of their particular musical idiom.

I don't know that I'd suggest using a click live without knowing what kind of music this band does or what their skill level is. There are other ways of going about fixing the time issues which are equally (and sometimes more, depending on the players) effective.


Most bands I've played with expect the drummer to set the lead. A timid drummer, just following along, doesn't really do anyone much good.
I would certainly agree that the drummer shouldn't be timid. I wasn't suggesting otherwise. But following along, being part of a team and being an immovable timer are three different things. Which of the last two is appropriate depends on the players and the music. Remember, Carlos Santana kicked out his last drummer because the guy was too rigid and wouldn't let the time fluctuate with the band.

Setting the tempo obviously isn't the role of the drummer unless every song starts with a drum fill. The last band I was in, only two songs started like that. Otherwise it was the guitarist or bassist kicking things off.

Sorry, didn't mean to make this into a "clicks are the devil" post. Certainly try everything at your disposal and see what works for you. You're much better off doing that than following any "don't do this" advice in this case. I'm just throwing in my two cents since I've dealt with the issue as a drummer.

I wasn't suggesting otherwise. But following along, being part of a team and being an immovable timer are three different things.
Sorry, didn't mean to make this into a "clicks are the devil" post.
same here. I'm not a "clicks are a magic solution" kinda guy either.

There's nothing wrong with putting on the metronome for the drummer. In fact, it's usually the good drummers who practice with the metronome. All the drummers I've played with had no problem in putting on the metronome, in fact most of them rather enjoyed it! :)

Here's the way I see it:
1 - A drummer with bad timing is NOT a good drummer
2 - Metronome MAY help, only if the drummer can follow it. If not, he HAS to be replaced.
3 - If he has any respect for the band, and himself as a player - he will agree to try the click for the better of the band.
4 - Drummers that have meter problems need to do 2 other things (besides work with a click) - keep it simple, and/or get some lessons. If they have a meter problem, a professional instructor will be best qualified to help them correct the problem.
5 - It IS the responsability of the drummer to keep time, and the band to follow him. (Hence why the drummer is called the "TIMEKEEPER") Try and signal him if he is rushing or dragging the song to pick it up, or slow it down when needed. It is always the singer's call what the tempo of the song SHOULD be, because he is in fact the one who has to be comfortable singing it. If he can't breathe - it's too fast! If he's falling asleep - it's too slow. Make sure your drummer knows that when you cue him to speed or slow the tempo, he needs to adjust it accordingly.

If all else fails and he doesn't pull it together.......bid him farewell and part as friends if possible! :bassist:

Why not use one live? Plenty of drummers do, and you don't have to be a slave to it. You can still push and pull it, though I wouldn't really get into that with a drummer such as this thread is about. That's a bit further down the road...

Most bands I've played with expect the drummer to set the lead. A timid drummer, just following along, doesn't really do anyone much good. Sure, everybody's working together, and is responsible for keeping in time, but I think generally it's the drummer who's expected to set that time.

I agree completely. Of course everyone is responsible for their own timing, but the drummer is the one who sets it. Really think about it...drummers do not play notes, chords, melody, etc. If they are not keeping the time with their beat, what in the heck are they doing there in the first place?

As a singer I will agree that timing is important. Sometimes in my band I have to speak up when something is too fast or too slow. My drummer has a good attitude about it so it's not problem. As far as a click track goes, I think it depends on the kind of music. We do a lot of classic rock and I guess it could help (although we've never tried it). But I think it depends on the type of music. I've also found that there is sometimes down time when he needs to adjust his snare or whatever esle. Sometimes I think an upgraded kit would help. Could that be an issue?

Here's the way I see it:
1 - A drummer with bad timing is NOT a good drummer
2 - Metronome MAY help, only if the drummer can follow it. If not, he HAS to be replaced.
3 - If he has any respect for the band, and himself as a player - he will agree to try the click for the better of the band.
4 - Drummers that have meter problems need to do 2 other things (besides work with a click) - keep it simple, and/or get some lessons. If they have a meter problem, a professional instructor will be best qualified to help them correct the problem.
5 - It IS the responsability of the drummer to keep time, and the band to follow him. (Hence why the drummer is called the "TIMEKEEPER") Try and signal him if he is rushing or dragging the song to pick it up, or slow it down when needed. It is always the singer's call what the tempo of the song SHOULD be, because he is in fact the one who has to be comfortable singing it. If he can't breathe - it's too fast! If he's falling asleep - it's too slow. Make sure your drummer knows that when you cue him to speed or slow the tempo, he needs to adjust it accordingly.

If all else fails and he doesn't pull it together.......bid him farewell and part as friends if possible! :bassist:Pithy and concise, this would make a great brochure on how to hire/why to fire a drummer! I'm going to copy this post.

I also agree w/ the posters saying the drummer has to accomodate the singer. It may be fun to play a little faster, but it can ruin the whole vibe of a song to change the singer's pacing and phrasing. Give 'em what they need!

Sometimes I think an upgraded kit would help. Could that be an issue?Good gear never hurts. If he's adjusting things because of problems, it's quite possible that a more reliable kit would help. Depends on why he's causing downtime. Normally, the drummer shouldn't require much time between songs. I've got to change settings and switch kits (V-drums) in between songs, but never hold things up. Seems like it's usually the guitarist's function to do that.

drummers do not play notes, chords, melody, etc.hey mang, how are you doing? Haven't talked to you for a while.
Just to give you a hard time I'm going to disagree with you there! I can play all the melodies and chords and notes I want, and do in fact! So take that!
I get to play some of the bass parts in a Yes medley, and though I haven't done it live yet, I could configure a kit of all tuned instruments like xylophones or kalimbas or heck, anything I guess- through the sampler. Technicality I suppose, but I figured I'd razz you a bit. I know a lot of jazz players consider their playing 'melodic,' and though it might be hard to hear an actual melody, the phrasing and tom play tend to be more lyrical and tuneful.
So take that back, for the sake of all the V-drummers out there, I beg ya!

hey mang, how are you doing? Haven't talked to you for a while.
Just to give you a hard time I'm going to disagree with you there! I can play all the melodies and chords and notes I want, and do in fact! So take that!
I get to play some of the bass parts in a Yes medley, and though I haven't done it live yet, I could configure a kit of all tuned instruments like xylophones or kalimbas or heck, anything I guess- through the sampler. Technicality I suppose, but I figured I'd razz you a bit. I know a lot of jazz players consider their playing 'melodic,' and though it might be hard to hear an actual melody, the phrasing and tom play tend to be more lyrical and tuneful.
So take that back, for the sake of all the V-drummers out there, I beg ya!

I'm doing well. We still have your CD in our disk changer and some tunes come up occassionally. That is one excellent CD! Love your group!

Well, typically a drummer is not playing notes, chords or melodies. I mean, what key is the drummer playing in? I have yet to hear anyone complain that the drummer was playing in G when the rest of the band was playing in A. :)

Sure, a drummer can tune his drums, but you know the old joke... "What do you call a guy who hangs out with three musicians? The drummer!"

And I was specifically talking about drummers, not percussionists who might play instruments that might be considered more melodic in nature (steel drums, xylophone, etc.). Heck, a bass player can play very percussive, but I have yet to hear a drummer play a song alone that anyone could recognize.

My point being that, if the drummer is not the timekeeper, what purpose is the drummer serving? He is not playing notes or chords or melodies. I'm not minimizing the role or importance of the drummer in relation to the music, but this thread was about a supposedly "good" drummer that has a problem with time. Which I find a bit ironic, considering what the drummers role is.

Are you guys coming out with a new CD any time soon? Hope so...let me know if you do!

great stuff so far

just to reiterate becasue some people seem to be missing it - Timing and the Tempo the drummer plays the song at are 2 different things!!!!!!!!

as far as tempo goes you have to hash out how fast or slow the songs should generally be. Personally, if a musician can't play a song faster or slower than they're used to they need to work on that a bit. If my drummer starts a song faster or slower than i'd like, i usually just adjust. If that's the problem, have someone else count off the songs.

Timing on the other hand is very important and all good drummers have good timing. Blatant speeding up and slowing down are no good. Worse is when the tune randomly speeds up and slows down for the entire length of the song!!!! Those are big issues and require a lot of practice on the part of the drummer.

Personally, i don't mind if an occasional tune speeds up or slows down a bit over the length of it as long as it's not a sudden noticable thing. some tunes seem to feel more "alive" that way. I have nothing against playing with a click in the studio, but live - ick.

I just recalled a method to help remember/establish the tempo of a song:

Sing a few lines of the chorus. (I think 99% of songs have a chorus section).

Maybe the drummer can learn the lyrics to the songs and sing a few lines to himself (or in his head) before he starts playing the song.

Go down to GC, buy a dr beat... plug that sucker into an amp, and point it at his friggin face.

A click = techno robot! Eithier you got it or you don't. But a click is a practice tool only because if the drummer relys on the click it is very, very hard to groove to a click. I recommend having the click hit only on the 2 and 4 of the measure so he/she can groove a little in the pocket and also stay in time. The only thing worse playing to a roller coaster of a drummer is playing with a robot of a drummer IMO.

yea, i'm having a bit of a problem with my own drummer (rather guitarist TURNED drummer), first off, his gear is ghetto but second off, since we make sporadic changes in songs, he always loses a bit of a grip on time. i'm gonna have to get him a metronome...

he will greatly improve if he uses the click as a practice tool. You will too, btw.

I was a medicore bassist with poor timing. Now I'm a medicore bassits with great timing !

Seriosiously, when I was a kid I was more intersted in playing Geddy's riffs than having a good seence of timing. Fortunatley, I was in a band with a guitarist who had no sence of timing nor was he intersted in working on his timing.... (he had no concept of rests and would play his parts as fast as he could).

At the time I left this band the Police broke big time and the radiop was filled with these songs with bass lines with simple notes but all this "bass space" with rests and strange rythmic timing. Sting has a straneg ability to be both comlex and simplistic at the same time.

I got into practcing with a metronome and it made a world of difference as to how I developed as a bass player.

So, yes your drummer should pratcice with a metronome and so shoudl everybody...it's the best way to train your own internal time clock !

johnvice,

Would you(or anyone) be able to recommend a Windows-based application that is suited to metronome?

I am sure they are out there but I am hoping someone can recommend the better ones they've discovered.

Thanks,

PS: This isn't for the band, just for my own curiosity.

A drummer with tempo problems is not a "good" drummer in my book. More like "bad."

If a drummer has BAD TIMMING, then he/she isn´t a good drummer. Period.

I think a metronome should only be used for individual practice. A band's time is up to everyone, not just the drummer. I think there are exceptions, like when you use loops, though.

yea, i'm having a bit of a problem with my own drummer (rather guitarist TURNED drummer),

Our problem drummer is also a guitarist in his other bands and I swear he plays drums like guitar, playing little accents that just don't sound right, but when I listen closely he's actually following our guitarist.

I'm going to dip into the band fund and get a good metronome as a "gift". Drummer is a gear head so he'll be at least mildly interested in the gadgetry!

Great thread, I'm going to delete my drummer sucks thread over in misc! :)

Just get a sequencer and you guys will have no doubts about timing issues as well as tempo issues problem solved
Cause I play in one and you have to keep it tight otherwise you will find some dissonant chords to notes being played :D

Yeah the guitarist mentioned a sequencer can do that also.

BTW, I was the original poster. We let the drummer go last night. Drinking and playing and at new gig was over the top.. :eyebrow:

Oh well,