Steve and Michael -

Overall playing-wise, my time is actually pretty good.

But when I try to loop on my echoplex against drum loops running off a laptop - the drift between the echoplex loops and the laptop loops get's pretty noticable by about 1 minute or so. I've really focused on trying to get it precise - but I never seem to get it to hold up over the long haul of an entire 5-8 minute piece.

Any tricks you use - or is this something I'm just gonna have to pound away at until I get it?

Wait - I think I just answered my own question. :smug:

Don't you have to sync them up by midi or something, just a guess but your a brave man trying looped drums and looped bass :D

Hope this helps

Steve and Michael -

Overall playing-wise, my time is actually pretty good.

But when I try to loop on my echoplex against drum loops running off a laptop - the drift between the echoplex loops and the laptop loops get's pretty noticable by about 1 minute or so. I've really focused on trying to get it precise - but I never seem to get it to hold up over the long haul of an entire 5-8 minute piece.

You can sync your Echoplex to the clock coming from the MIDI out on your laptop. (perhaps that's what you figured out already)

Run the MIDI Out from your laptop into your Echoplex MIDI In. Make sure your MIDI Out is not using the same channel as the Echoplex otherwise parameter resetting chaos will ensue. Your Echoplex will pick up on the MIDI clock and you can set the Sync to In and quantize your start and stop times to the clock ( there may be another setting or two you have to set ).

I have done this with my laptop and an external drum machine without any problems.

I have done live looping with a real drummer where we both play with a click from a drum machine and sync the Echoplex to the drum machine. The Echoplex does get out of sync sometimes after some operations. It's still not clear why yet. Generally after I do a lot of overdubs and long-undos.

- Dave

The other alternative (that I use when teaching a lot) is to loop the drums into the echoplex - this doesn't work if you're doing any cool stereo imaging with your drums or need them through a separate sound source, but does mean that you can do some of the Echoplex mangling to the drum track as well... :)

I really wouldn't try to gig just looping along with a drum machine. If you can loop so that you're only drifting out after a minute, you're actually doing really well - you only need to be the tiniest fraction of a second out for it to drift...

Steve
www.stevelawson.net

You can sync your Echoplex to the clock coming from the MIDI out on your laptop. (perhaps that's what you figured out already)

Run the MIDI Out from your laptop into your Echoplex MIDI In. Make sure your MIDI Out is not using the same channel as the Echoplex otherwise parameter resetting chaos will ensue. Your Echoplex will pick up on the MIDI clock and you can set the Sync to In and quantize your start and stop times to the clock ( there may be another setting or two you have to set ).

I have done this with my laptop and an external drum machine without any problems.

I have done live looping with a real drummer where we both play with a click from a drum machine and sync the Echoplex to the drum machine. The Echoplex does get out of sync sometimes after some operations. It's still not clear why yet. Generally after I do a lot of overdubs and long-undos.

- Dave

Thanks Dave. That's good news. Now I just have to figure out how to pull this off with my set up.

Time to whip out the War & Peace Echoplex manual. ;)

The other alternative (that I use when teaching a lot) is to loop the drums into the echoplex -

This works well actually as long as I mono out the drum tracks - but I am trying to fill out the sound field.

I really wouldn't try to gig just looping along with a drum machine. If you can loop so that you're only drifting out after a minute, you're actually doing really well - you only need to be the tiniest fraction of a second out for it to drift...

That's a relief. All this time I thought I simply sucked!

BTW - I'm looking forward to seeing you and Michael perform in San Jose in a few weeks. Can't wait!

I found the proceedure online at Loopers Delight.com

here's the article for anyone else who may be interested in it. It's pretty much as Dave described.



ECHOPLEX MIDI SYNCING

Yes, you can have the sequencer generate midi clock, and sync to that. You can set the length the loop will be in relation to the sequence tempo, so for instance you can make your loop equal 8 beats, 7 beats, 3 eighths, whatever. The echoplex, once it is synced, will stay locked to the sequencer and not drift. This works reasonably well in the current shipping software, and the not-yet-shipping upgrade has many improvements in this area.

To do it:
Set the sync parameter to "in"

Make sure you have the echoplex in reset, and midi out from sequencer is in midi in of the 'plex. Make sure your sequencer is set to generate clocks.

Start the sequencer. It will send midi clocks, which the echoplex will happily monitor. If you look at the display, you will see a little dot flash at the sync interval. This interval is determined by the 8ths/beat parameter, which basically tells the echoplex how many 8th notes will be in the basic loop cycle.

Press record, the echoplex starts recording. (If you are using the quantize function, its a bit different. I'll explain below) You have to wait until after the clock starts to start record. Otherwise the echoplex doesn't know its supposed to be syncing to something.

Play stuff, press record again. The echoplex will continue recording until the loop is the appropriate length, end the recording automatically, and start looping.

Your loop should be in time with your sequence.

If you use the quantize function, which basically quantizes the timing of your echoplex actions, the echoplex will wait until the next sync interval to start its recording. This way your loops are not only the proper length, but the beginning point of the loop is right at the beginning of the measure in the sequence.

Hopefully that makes some sense. (its quarter to 3am, I'm a tad groggy...) Play around with it, the practical experience will make it more obvious.

I use this technique for live type playing a lot, to sync my loops to drum machines. One thing that is fun to experiment with is to use 8ths/beat to set the meter of your loops to be different from the meter of the sequence. So you can get 3 verses 4, say. One thing I've had a lot of fun with is to take a two bar drum machine groove and record it into an echoplex that is synced to it, with the echoplex's 8ths/beat set to 15, for example. So I record 15 of the 16 eighths in the drum pattern, and loop that along with the original. With the loop shifting one eighth each time through, the simple little drum machine suddenly sounds remarkably creative!

Another thing to try is syncing multiple echoplexes together with different 8ths/beat, to get fripp-like multi loops going where the different loops are related by some ratio.

Using the echoplex to generate midi clocks and control a sequencer is also really fun. Basically, set things up the reverse of before. Sync=out, midi out of echoplex to midi in of sequencer.

Hit record, play your thing, hit record again. The echoplex will then generate midi clock and send a start-song message to the sequencer. The sequencer should then start, in time with the thing you just played. I also do this with drum machines, so the pattern comes in at the tempo I just played.

BTW - I'm looking forward to seeing you and Michael perform in San Jose in a few weeks. Can't wait!

Cool! Do come and say hi - it's always great to meet guys from Talkbass.

and bring your friends :)

Steve
www.stevelawson.net

A few things to add to the Echoplex sync issue:

Sync is an ongoing thing - it's not just a question of starting the Echoplex at the right time with the right loop length, but of an ongoing synchronization that the Echoplex has to follow (if it's receiving sync). This is why a MIDI-synced Echoplex will drift from its master after doing a lot of overdubs, feedback changes, or other in-depth functions: basically, it can't keep calculating accurate sync at the exact same time that it's performing other, more complex operations.

The workaround for this is to use the ReAlign feature, which puts the Echoplex into a state where it waits for the next "downbeat" from the sync master, and then re-triggers the current EDP loop, whch lines everything up again. There's a front-panel combination which will access this, as well as one or more MIDI-exclusive options. If you're going to use the EDP as a slave, it's a good idea to use Realign if you want to do anything more than loop one or two layers.

The other alternative is to use the EDP as the clock master, so that whatever sequencer/drum machine/sound module you're using is following the Echoplex. You may well find that this is a lot more fun, because:

1) You don't have to deal with ReAligning the EDP, since it's producing the master sync,

2) You can record your preliminary loop, and then instantly have your drum machine or sequencer start playing back at the precise moment you close your initial Echoplex loop (so that the sequencer is literally following your lead),

3) You can produce metric modulations by changing the 8th/cycle parameter, so that the drum machine/sequencer will interpret your loop as different rhythmic subdivisions to use as its basis. It's difficult to explain in writing, but once you try it it'll make your sequencer sound like Terry Bozzio (albeit a very stiff and repetitive one),

4) Similarly, you can do an unrounded multiply, and have the sequencer instantly shift to sync to the new loop length.

Anyway...

--Andre LaFosse
The Echoplex Analysis Pages:
http://www.altruistmusic.com/EDP

This sounds like one very scary and complex piece of kit. I'm soooo tempted by one (well I was until this thread really confused me :D )

Andre - that's really pretty intriguing. So the sequence will start automatically when I finish my first loop - and match it's tempo? I like this idea - although every piece will have to start with me playing rather than sequenced material. Everything is a trade-off.

The echoplex is a really deep tool - I've only had mine about 2 months and I've already had to re-set it to factory setting several times cuz I've gone in and started messing around to the point where I had no idea what was going on any more. :hmm:

Definately created by protracter weilding eggheads heads!

although every piece will have to start with me playing rather than sequenced material. Everything is a trade-off.

No, actually you can preset a tempo in the Echoplex, and then have the sequencer start playing based on that tempo, before you record your first Echoplex loop. Or, you can record an Echoplex loop and let it repeat X number of times, before having the sequencer start at your command. They're MIDI-exclusive things, and it's in the manual (I don't use sync very often, so I don't know the procedure off-hand...)

Definately created by protracter weilding eggheads heads!

Hmmmm... I'd say it's roughly 1 part Swiss/German/Brazillian mad scientist hippie, and 1 part cynical Bay Area hip-hop/metalhead:

http://matthias.grob.org
http://www.kimflint.com

Never seen either of them brandishing a protractor, though...

--Andre LaFosse
http://www.altruistmusic.com