A question for you lot from me for a change! :o)

Recently, I've been thinking a lot more about sound than technique - it seems to be a fairly ignored area in bass playing in general, left to sound engineers and bass builders, but not really considered to highly in terms of technique as it relates to expression, vibe, mood, phrasing or just ambience.

There are a few people who's sound just floors me, regardless of what notes they play - Michael Manring's solo sound on his Hyperbass just oozes wonderfulness - it's so clear that he's spent years just working on tone, making sure that his technique produces the right level of sonic control as well as just getting the notes out there.

Another guy who's sound I really like is Mark Beazley from Rothko - I did a gig with him the other night, and there are a few things he does within the context of his band that are really evocative, mainly just ambient noises and single chord washes...

So, where have you heard great sound? Please please please don't just list your favourites! I'd love to hear about great bass sounds, what they meant to you, why they stood out, or sounds that you've found if your own playing... and of course if you have any questions about any of the sounds on my CD, that's cool too...

cheers

Steve
www.steve-lawson.co.uk

Hey, Steve,

First off, I think the sound you get on your solo cd is pretty damn nice. But, to answer your question,I'd have to say one of the first tones that totally threw me for a loop was the sound that Michael Manring got on the first Michael Hedges album, Breakfast in the Field. It's very dry and woody. And, there is so much atmosphere to that album (with and without Manring). The track Two Days Old leaves me speechless even 12 years after first hearing it. The tone that Michael pulls from his bass sounds like someone crying plaintively.
I'm pretty sure this was an old Jazz bass, or perhaps a musicman.

Sorry to bring up Manring as my first choice, too, but at least I went back 20 years, right? http://www.talkbass.com/forum/images/icons/icon10.gif

No problems about siting Michael as an example - his sound rocks. And it's interesting that it was that inspiring on his pre-Zon Fender or Musicman (can't remember off hand the dates around his different basses, though you can find that out from the interview that I did with him for Bassist magazine, which is archived in the bassdotcom section of my website! :o)

I guess it just goes to show that it's in the hands...

Steve
www.steve-lawson.co.uk

Hey, Steve.

I think people are less concerned about sound than, say, technique because sound is such a subjective thing. It is dependent on so many different factors that one person could go bonkers trying to reproduce it exactly the same way every time. Factors like the instrument one's playing, the brand, age, gauge of strings and how the player strikes them, the way the instrument's set up, the type of amplification and where one positions one's hand. Strangely enough, though, I believe every player at some point comes across a sound they like and then proceed to attempt to reproduce it on any given instrument and occasion, regardless of what kind of equipment they have. Modifying your technique to accomodate your gear is the easiest way to have a sound that's consistent regardless of the venue. I would argue that people attempt to have a consistency in sound whether they're aware of it or not, and whether the engineer, if there's one, is screwing it up or not. Playing the same instrument all the time does help.

I have no specific sounds I find worthy of note, except obvious ones like Jaco, etc. Maybe some will occur to me later on.

Will C.:cool:

Hi Steve,

After reading your post a couple bassplayers come to mind for me.

Marcus Miller. I think he revoutionized how slap bass should sound. Clear, and punchy.

Victor Wooten. The thing I love about his sound is how he takes a little from the old school funk sound (Larry Graham, Bootsy) and a little from the new school (Marcus) and somehow creates a sound that's all his own.


Steve
(Hey that's my name too!)

Originally posted by Steve Lawson
So, where have you heard great sound? Please please please don't just list your favourites! I'd love to hear about great bass sounds, what they meant to you, why they stood out, or sounds that you've found if your own playing...

When I think tone, I think Jamerson. I always go directly to him, and have found that my sound has been an evolution of personal sounds trying to come closer to the Motown bottom. His tone was so warm and full. Even with some of Motown's earlier, archaic, recording, he always comes through, delivering a solid bottom, not just by rhythm and melody, but by his tone.

Some great thoughts coming in - the Jamerson props makes big sense - and I think that that was a combination of his hands, the mutes on his bass and the massive compression that was applied to all that early Motown stuff to make it sound great on little tinny radios. His sound does indeed Rock!

Big Wheel,

You point about the number of variables involved in sound is a great one - I had a chat recently with Ric Fierabracci (a player with utterly amazing tone, and now a total tone junky...) who commented on the amount of thought that he perceived had gone into my sound, and he said that having done alot of his playing in New York where you can't drive to gigs, that tone at least on the kind of really focussed level that we're talking about here, was out of your hands and reliant on the house backline and the soundman, so instead of honing in on tone, he got really into the whole notes and feel thing, which was what he had control over. I think he's really making up for it now, as anyone who has heard Ric play will attest to - his Pedulla sounds great, but it does seem to be mainly in the hands...

I on the otherhand, will do everything in my power to take my full rig to every gig - I recently drove 1400 miles in a weekend and spent goodness knows how much money on road tolls to play at a festival in the south of France to make sure that I had my rig with me. I've worked hard and spent a lot of time thinking about tone and don't really like leaving much of it at home. The great thing about playing in California in January is that because I was playing for Ashdown, I was able to use a set up identical to my own, as I took my Lexicon MPX-G2, JamMan and Line6 DL4 with me. All that was missing was my Raven Labs Master Blender and my Interstellar Overdrive, and I was even able to borrow a Master Blender for my clinic at the Bass Exchange!! :o)

It's interesting to look at the distinction between 'tone' and 'sound' - tone being about an instrument or player, but not normally being about a particular note, phrase, atmosphere. I guess it's difficult to sell sounds, but easy enough to package and market 'tone'... If you buy all the same gear as me, the 'tone' will be there, but it still won't 'sound' like me... :o)

And on that note, there's a Modulus OB6 fretless in the same wood/finish combination as mine (really gave me a fright when I saw it! :o) in The Gallery in London, if anyone is interested - this is the greatest bass I've ever played, bar none! check out www.thebassgallery.com for more info on the shop...

cheers

Steve
www.steve-lawson.co.uk

my favourite fretless sounds are upright bass sounds- eg. Danny Thompson and Herbie Flowers- and that's the sound I've been trying to get out of my flatwound-strung Hohner acoustic; a sort of dry "honk" as opposed to the electric fretless "mwah" that everyone else goes for (the Pino Palladino sound).
miking it up helps, rather than relying on the piezo pickup alone.

another sound I like a lot, (that everyone else probably hates:) ), is a P bass (also good with a touch of bridge J p/up added as well) with chorus- a clangy piano-like sound (as used by JJ Burnel ,Simon Gallup, Peter Hook etc.)- not strictly a "pure sound" though.

Mock Turtle - thanks for that - are there specific place where those guys 'sound' is just right - the combination of tone, taste, technique and everything else that's just sonically wonderful. I love Simon Gallup's sound, but I'd have to think for a while to find a bit of his sound that just floors me like that.

Danny T on the other hand has that same kind of sonic vision that we've been talking about Michael Manring having - every note counts, every slide is there for a reason. There's a 'Whatever' track called Till Minne Av Jan which is soooo lovely in everyway - well worth looking out.

cheers

Steve
www.steve-lawson.co.uk

There doesn't seem to be any "right" sound, but I think a player ought to have a voice of his own on the bass, a sound he pursues until he nails it. For me, the key is to have a sound that is as close to the human voice as possible. It is easy to blow off the mids when creating a bass voice, mids are very difficult, but that's where the individuality of the human voice happens. But I don't mean twiddling knobs, too much EQ introduces phase problems. I mean working with pickups, strings, woods, and bass construction so the bass itself is doing the right things, then choosing the right amp rig components so they are doing the right things, all without tweezing knobs all over the place, and of course working obsessively on getting the right sound from the hands, authoritative attack, smooth horn-like super-legato hammer-on/pull-off technique, complete dynamic control, authoritative control of time. I think the reason the electric guitar became the most-used solo instrument in pop music is because it is so much more vocal than, say, the trumpet. I think people identify with vocal-like sounds and respond emotionally to them. I mean, compare the tenor sax to the xylophone, which one is going to get people going? But I am not trying to convince anyone right now. I am just demonstrating that I have this deep conviction about sound, what it means, how it works on people's emotions, and a fanatical desire to achieve this sound that I have in my mind's ear. I think everyone should be on an obsessive sound quest, not an arbitrary one, but one that makes sense to oneself. It helps get all one's thinking and efforts going in the same direction.

Steve,
For me, the SOUND of bass was what got me into playing in the first place. One of my main influences, and the guy who got me into playing bass in the first place, is Jason Scheff from the band Chicago. I first heard his tone when I was getting back into the band way back in late '96/early '97 and it was incredible! This really midrangy, punchy J-Bass tone with a good bit of compression that just COOKED. I mean, his tone was just incredible. And really, that sound was what made me want to play bass. Once I started playing, one of my main focuses was trying to find my own personal voice and sound. I became sort of a gear junkie, but it was mainly in the sense that I was researching string types, pickup types, bass construction, etc., almost as much as I was concentrating on playing & technique. Through all of this research, I came to the conclusion that the key to finding the sound I liked was to listen to a ton of music that I really dug, start WRITING music that allowed me to play in the way I envisioned myself sounding, and to simply play with people as much as possible. Also, keeping my rig simple was a key focus, as I knew early on that too much gear in a signal chain can really gunk up tone. I knew what tone I was aiming for, and it was only a matter of time before I got it.
Fast forward to the summer of '99 and the first time I heard Jaco Pastorius... Right then and there I knew where the sound I envisioned was rooted. I had ironically gotten a fretless bass a few months before, and my whole approach to that instrument changed once I heard Jaco. I have NEVER been one to rip off licks, or ANY part of another player's style verbatim. It's against everything I stand for with music. However, I will freely let whatever it is about that player's style/tone/etc. influence me, and will assimilate it into my playing. THAT is another BIG part of finding the sound you like... Assimilating all of your influences into your own sound. Jaco really legitimized the way I envisioned myself sounding, and also helped me to hear that my true voice on bass is with the fretless. It's a big melting pot of things. :-) Luckily I now have the tone I want... A singing, midrange fretless tone with awesome sustain and growl, and a really thick, deep bottom that isn't muddy.

And yes, all this leads to my answer to the original question. <lol>

A tone that I really dig, obviously, is a midrangy, punchy sound with a fretless-type edge to it. Mark Egan's tone from the Pat Metheny Group's days is really gorgeous. Additionally, a tone that I've discovered in my own playing, influenced by Pat Metheny, is a tone that uses a touch of digital delay (I can't remember the exact settings), that adds a slight amount of slapback reverb. I love using this for melodic passages that sort of lay back, then cut the delay off to bring the bass right back up front. I tend to use this a lot in my solo playing. Also, the crispness and clarity of John Patitucci's tone has really influenced my 5-string playing, and I find it to be one of the most gorgeous bass tones I've ever heard. In the realm of upright, I have to mention Scott LaFaro. To be so fluid and fast, he has the most incredible tone. He's a huge influence on my tone, and is the genesis of my search for the deep bottom on top of the really prominent midrange in my sound. A nod has to go out to Larry Grenadier as well. He has one of the best upright tones. Crisp, clear, and every note has incredible articulation.

There are so many tones that floor me and hit me in some way or another, but Jaco, Jason, Mark, John, Scott, and Larry are my biggies right now.

I don't want my post to be about favorite bassists or what-have-you, so I will just say I really love the sound of a vintage bass.

That's my short post for the evening. :)

Cheers,

~Stephanie

Kurt - thanks very much for the thoughts on the relationship between emotive music and the human voice. There's much to think about and ponder there, and at first glance it certainly seems to tally with my own quest for 'sound', though I also find that the whole 'sound' question as opposed to 'tone' is about context, and that's kind of what I'm getting at here - sorry for being so vague with the whole topic... :o)

Jaco's 'sound' varies for me - there are bits on Bright Sized Life and Hejira that really blow me away completely. There are bits of Weather Report stuff where his 'sound' leaves me stone cold - I'm not a fan of chorussed fretless at all, so all the chorussed stuff doesn't work for me, but there are other times when his tone just doesn't work for me in the context. And that's the crux of this - 'sound' doesn't just come from great tone. For me, it's a subjective connection between all the factors involved in playing, arranging, writing, recording and listening to music. Every factor that is involved in any musical exchange, as Kurt was talking about...

Steph - I love vintage bass sounds too, but where is it that the connection between player and instrument just floors you, the bits where the 'sound' is just so right.

Feel free to broaden it beyond bass - for me, there are two musicians in the world that I can think of who consistently wow me with the 'sonic environment' of their music - beyond notes and chops and just delving into sound - Michael Manring and Bill Frisell. there are others that have bits of music that has that effect, and a few singers who hit moments - Tori Amos singing China; just the sound of her voice and piano is mesmerising. Marcus Miller's bass clarinet sound on Amazing Grace live was a sound that literally knocked me off my feet - I had to sit down just to take in the wonderous sound of Marcus playing that instrument in the Barbican in London...

keep those thoughts coming in... :o)

cheers

Steve
www.steve-lawson.co.uk

Steve, Very interesting thread you've got going here. And, ironically, I have been for the past several weeks immensed in the study of "sound" and "tone". I recently picked up an Epiphone Jack Casady Signature Bass, and one of the things that knocked me out was how this instrument (or any acoustically charged bass) really responds to variations of playing style and technique. As an experiment I started making a reference vocabulary of "classic" tones (i.e. Jamerson, Marcus, Stanley...)
and began trying to create emulations thereof USING ONLY MY HANDS and this one bass. Now, I usually (as you know, Steve) am an ardent fan of FX processing and such, but just hollow-body bass into a SWR Baby Blue with no compression, flat EQ, and no fx gave such a true, organic sound, and I was able to create a wide pallete of tones by just manipulating the "speaking length" of the string with my hands and fingers.
Of course, my "Jamerson Sound" or "stanley sound" emulations did not sound like their namesakes, they still sounded like me. But there was a tonal reference......they didn't sound like me trying to cop a Jaco tone or Stanley tone, but more like their influence filtered thru my style and allowed to flower (or mutate) into varying degrees of original sound.
This little experiment has led me to find a whole new pallete of sounds and colours on the bass, all thru the manipulation of the strings with my hands; using right and left hand dynamics, and changing the "speaking length" of the string (oddly, my "discovery" comes on a bass designed and signed by Jack Casady, one of the world's premier exponents of these techniques). And, while the original designations of these sounds and colours were made in reference to several "revered" players, none of my "new" tones really sound like them. My "manring-double-stop-tapping" sound does not really sound like Michael, but his influence is certainly felt; like a guiding hand bringing my own instrumental voice to the fore.
Every link in your signal chain (which begins at your heart, channels thru your mind, runs thru your hands to your fingers, finally hitting your strings, the fingerboard, neck and body of your bass, the pickups, the cable, the amp and whatever sundry processing you have thrown in), is both responding to and responsive for your "inner" voice. Every player has a unique and wonderful sound all of their own. Whether you have a mucho expensive, custom built instrument, or a budget of the rack axe; piles of gear or just a 25 watt practice amp, you will always sound like you. And no one else ever can sound like you, just as you can never sound like someone else (try as you might). Your personal instrumental voice has many shadings and inflections.....study those. Unleash them, find them. You may discover that your voice has many influences....each one a thing of beauty in its own right.
Max

Originally posted by Steve Lawson


Jaco's 'sound' varies for me - there are bits on Bright Sized Life and Hejira that really blow me away completely. There are bits of Weather Report stuff where his 'sound' leaves me stone cold - I'm not a fan of chorussed fretless at all, so all the chorussed stuff doesn't work for me, but there are other times when his tone just doesn't work for me in the context. And that's the crux of this - 'sound' doesn't just come from great tone.

I must admit that I like all of Jaco's stuff but there are different "sounds" and the sound on Joni Mitchells' stuff is different. The sound that most impressed me was on "Don Juan's Reckless Daughter" - there are tracks where the bass sounds like a whole orchestra. Like the track "Jericho" -minimal guitar and drums, but when the bass comes in it makes a huge impact, but is perfect for the song - also "Off Night Backstreet" - I've never heard sounds like this before or since in the context of a song.

I know you've met Franc O' Shea and I really like his sound - which to me is a "development" of what Jaco was doing; so it is an original sound in its own right but also building on the sort of sounds that Jaco introduced into the vocabulary.

As you say though, it is about "context" and what might sound great on its own may not fit into the overall sound of a group. So I can get the sound I really like when I'm playing at home though monitor speakers, but will often find that this doesn't work in the band context, so I don't end up using my "favourite" tone or sound very often. I suppose this is an argument for playing solo!!?? ;)

I think that if you get a really great sound, that good musicians will fit everything else around it - and I get the feeling this is what Joni Mitchell did with Jaco. I was also reminded of this, because Mick Karn came up as "featured artist" and I can remember him saying in interviews in the 80s that Japan often re-recorded all the other instruments to fit better with his basslines as they liked the "sound" so much, even though they didn't really fit with what had been put down.

I'm not too sure about the situational nature of a good sound. I mean, vocalists are born with an instrument that essentially has one sound (well, of course, they have falsetto, but then we have harmonics), one timbre, although they can inflect it in many ways as we do with our fingers. Just a thought.

There is something we can do about our sound. We can try to get the instrument (the whole rig) as responsive to changes in our touch as possible. That will open up our range of possibilities. Sometimes that means cutting down the amount of brash highs and swamp lows so we can hear those subtleties. Most of the time, it means choosing components that get in the way of the basic sound of the plank and strings.

Most bassists have basses that sound better than they will ever know because this thing or that masks its sound.

Originally posted by Steve Lawson
Steph - I love vintage bass sounds too, but where is it that the connection between player and instrument just floors you, the bits where the 'sound' is just so right.


I listen to a lot of bassists who I feel have a unique 'sound' to them. It's hard for me to define. In relationship to a bassist and his instrument, the sound is right when I can tell the person thinks of that bass as a 'second limb' and not just an instrument.

I can give you an example: Patrick Dahlheimer of Live (yes, you probably knew I was gonna say him. LOL :D), I can say has a 'unique' sound. (Course it could just be me), but his basslines always sound unique. Just like tone of voice. I'm quite sure my voice isn't the same as, say yours, Steve. (Heehee). He could be playing one of his Lakland Basses then switch over to a vintage Fender, he doesn't sound any different to me. He has said the Laklands have better tone than the Fenders, but his 'sound' is still there. Changing equipment cannot take away that sound. It'll never disappear as long as one stays true to himself. I tell ya, I can get lost in his basslines..as well as a few other bassists..and I can say "yep that's so and so playing no doubt about it." But I tell ya, there's something about his playing that's very special to me and just strikes chord (pun intended?) in me.

Before I stray off I'd like to compare a bassists' (or any musician for that matter) sound to a writer's 'voice'. Having taken writing courses in the past I was always told to 'find your own voice' and studied how some of my favorite authors have 'unique' voices. I think that of a musician.

Cheers,

~Stephanie

PS: This is what you meant by 'sound', right Steve? :)

PPS: Please excuse my seemingly lack of ability to articulate what I mean on some things. I can't seem to find the right words. LOL. :)

I would rather listen to an average player with great tone, than a great one with lousy tone. Unfortunately, most of the great ones that come on tour seem to suffer from bad sound mixing, a seemingly universal trait. Engineers spend ages getting a great drum sound, then give the vocal mics and the bass about 20 seconds each. I like to catch all the visiting bassists of any note, but mostly it's a waste of time, due to bad mixing.

Muchos wisdom all round - thanks very much.

Steph - the comparison with a writer's voice is great - very useful way of thinking about it. With art, i often find that metaphors are more useful than attempts to scientifically analyise what's going on...

Max - great experiment in exploring the control of your hands. Very good exercise to get the focus away from toys.

Kurt - control is a huge aspect of 'sound' - so your point about responsive gear is great, unless the limitations in the sound are part of what inspires you in the first place... for me, I go for the kind of sound you describe, with a big dynamic range and find that they helps me to build a sonic environment that is inspiring to me and hopefully connects with the audience...

Bruce - I too like Franc's tone, though in terms of 'sound', his stuff doesn't quite strike me in the way that say 'Portrait of Tracey' or 'the Enormous Room' does - my enjoyment of his music is probably more compositional than 'sonic', if that makes sense...

keep them thoughts coming in - it's all making me think...

Steve
www.steve-lawson.co.uk

ahhh..."Portrait of Tracy", now that's a song. :)

Jaco definately had a unique sound. Like, and I think I've mentioned this, when my teacher started playing a song I knew right off the bat it was Jaco before he even told me and it wasn't any of the songs I've heard before either. So I guess that says something. :)

I guess it must've been his use of harmonics and his rapid 16th notes. I only have one Jaco CD but I listen to it all the time and that's what I get out of it...but there's something else to it, a 'voice' like I've said, I don't think there's words to explain it.

Cheers,

~Stephanie

Originally posted by Steve Lawson


Bruce - I too like Franc's tone, though in terms of 'sound', his stuff doesn't quite strike me in the way that say 'Portrait of Tracey' or 'the Enormous Room' does - my enjoyment of his music is probably more compositional than 'sonic', if that makes sense...

keep them thoughts coming in - it's all making me think...

Steve
www.steve-lawson.co.uk

I do know what you mean I think I like his album, because all the compositions are written around the bass line but still work as compositions in a Jazz context.

I go along to the Brighton Jazz club each week and while I love the music and there are always some great players, the bass (nearly always double bass) has a role that is clearly defined and supporting.

Whereas, I have seen Franc's quintet a few times in the same place and there is such a huge difference to me - but the music is still accepted by audiences in Jazz clubs - like the 606 in London.
Laurence Cottle is doing similar things as well and I suppose this is the area I would like to get into, so it has a big impact on me, but probably very few others.;)

Actually when you mention "Portrait of Tracy" - I think that the short solo bass track (Pearl for Maria) on Franc's album is like his own PoT, but deliberately avoiding harmonics and fretless sounds, so as not to have the inevitable comparisons.

Originally posted by stephanie
I guess it must've been his use of harmonics and his rapid 16th notes. I only have one Jaco CD but I listen to it all the time and that's what I get out of it...but there's something else to it, a 'voice' like I've said, I don't think there's words to explain it.


Great - now we're getting to the crux of the issue - it's very difficult to describe 'sound' - not notes, or even tone, but sound and the way it impacts you. And because of that, it's very difficult to make money from - bass and amp builders can sell 'tone' - SWR amps have a certain colour that they add to anyone's playing, but they can guarentee that you'll sound like Marcus or Manthing or Derek Smalls - that comes from a combination of all the things we've listed so far.

i think discussions like this are vital because we can get so into trying to quantify what we like and give things some kind of heirarchical value that doesn't exist - there's no best gear, no best chops, no best players, no greatest CD ever. We can do polls that tell us the things that have been best marketed, or the things that best connect with the largest number of people (sadly often the lowest common denominator), but self-expression and its ability to mean something to you, aside from any quest for novelty or relentless originality (as i've said before, i think it's far more important to be 'true' than to be original). when the bottom line for music is 'sound' not notes or chops, then it all gets a bit messy, a bit difficult to describe and quantify. You find that there are big name players that do absolutely nothing for you, and random bits of music that for some inexplicable reason really mean something way beyond the message of the words or the chops of the players.

I guess it comes back to things like integrity, authenticity and journey. there's no end point, we're all seeking and learning and trying to find our voice...

Steve
www.steve-lawson.co.uk

So are you including things like note choice, which Jaco mentioned in his video as being part of his sound? Things like what scales you might choose to use over particular chords are often associated with a Jazz musician's "sound" - like John Coltrane and sheets of sound. Or I've heard Mahler's symphonies described as the sound of the falling fourth.

it does include that, of course, but as music can actually be non pitched and still not be a drum solo, I think that the 'rule of notes' that governed writing up until the middle of the 20th century really still has a hold on the way that a lot of people view contemporary music... what you do with notes is important, but to use my own music as an example, I often have three different un-sync'd loops going at once on my live gigs now, and the effect created is not due to shifting harmony but more to texture. the harmony changes every time i play, because I tend not to compose those sections, and because the harmonic setting on the e-bow is fairly random, I don't know what the notes are going to be until i play them, so clearly the notes are not the issue, but the 'sonic environment'...

I do think that, like the Coltrane example you give, notes are important, but there are loads of players aroudn who play as fast as Coltrane, but don't have anything like his conceptual approach, his passion his fire. The fact that there are tens, possibly hundreds of books written trying to get to the bottom of what he was doing and where it came from suggests that it's much bigger than theory and technique... after-all, the Giant Steps solo is largely 1,2,3, 5 against each chord, but I'm buggered if i could sound like that using those notes... :o)

steve
www.steve-lawson.co.uk

on the theme of Mahler - it's interesting what happened to score writing in the 19th century - as writers like Wagner and Mahler realised that their musical vision couldn't adequately be expressed within the confines of the rather rudimentary notation of the day, they got more and more elaborate at describing the 'sound' - the notes and rhythms were all there but that wasn't enough. if you got back further, notes rules - Bach didn't even mention what instrument some of his keyboard works were meant for on the score - could be piano (only the later stuff), could be harpsichord, who cares - the notes were what rocked. For Mahler, his sound was far more textural, so the score got more complex to try and bridge the gulf between writing for musicians you wouldn't meet, but still controlling the sound. Into the 20th Century, and technology meant that musical works could be recorded in a definitive way via record instead of paper, and recorded music was now an end in itself - musique concrete meaning 'fixed' music, music that was established on tape and never interpreted. The legacy we now have is a mix of that tradition with the black music tradition that runs from Africa into North America and out again, from work-songs and spirituals, blues, dixie-land and into the various forms of Jazz. A heck of a lot of CDs now are completely unplayable live, due to the degree of step-time processing and post-production that goes on. For me, I wasn't really interested in that as an art form when I did my CD, or when I play live - it's about the connection between me, the audience and the venue, filtered through how I feel, and what I've been playing that week.

So now, there are composers working with every kind of sound - from traffic noise to bird song to computer generated tones to whatever - not thinking tonally, but texturally and rhythmically. I would suggest that perhaps the most important movement in western music in the last 30-40 years is hip-hop, in that at it's rawest - the synthesis of different tracks on a record deck with an MC, the process of looping and scratching live to create new rhythm and new texture from other people's music - it was a whole new 'cut 'n' paste approach that grew out of the neccesity for making music in a situation where people didn't have access to expensive instruments and tuition. The layering of clashing sounds in order to create a rhythm track is conceptually closer to charles Ives or Ornette's double trio, or Edgar Varese than it is to even the records that are being sampled!!! and it's as much about raw sound as it is about notes, I think...

steve
www.steve-lawson.co.uk

I know what you mean and have a few CDs of early electronic and tape music. There is some extraordinary music out there and the Radio 3 programme "Mixing It" gets something every week that surprises me and makes me want to buy it.

They had an interview a month or so ago, with two composers who take their basic sounds from everyday "noises" and make music with it - I actually found some of it very listenable. The most bizarre piece was conceived entirely from the sounds of cosmetic surgery - liposuctions, nose jobs etc. They pointed out where they had used the sound of bones in the face being broken!

There was something also from a group called "Mouse on Mars" who have done things like this, but have gone to that extreme and come back to using conventional instrumentation and orchestration. I really liked the tracks they played on the programme and intend to buy the CD as soon as I see it.

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield
Actually when you mention "Portrait of Tracy" - I think that the short solo bass track (Pearl for Maria) on Franc's album is like his own PoT, but deliberately avoiding harmonics and fretless sounds, so as not to have the inevitable comparisons.

If it's true that he avoided those things to avoid sounding like Jaco, that is, IMHO, rather sad - if there are sounds that support what you are going to say as a musician, then use 'em - Franc's not going to sound like Jaco if he tries - he's a fine player with his own vibe and sound. There may be traces of other players in there, as I'm sure there are in what I do, but I still sound like me playing a fretless bass and using harmonics all over the place.

...and, if I'm not mistaken, portrait of tracy was played on a fretted bass! there are a couple of tracks on Jaco's first album that are on fretted, and it STILL SOUNDS LIKE JACO - the essence of his sound was in his hands and his personality. Harmonics and fretless don't make you sound like jaco any more than piano and orgasmic groaning makes you sound like Keith Jarrett. jaco's influence is all over the place, but I don't believe it's inherent in a fretless bass. I avoided fretless bass for 11 years, because I was afraid of sounding like Pino more than Jaco - at the time, his sound was all I could hear on the instrument. I then got a call for a session that required a fretless, and got my modulus VJazz, which within a couple of months became my most played instrument, and a year later I got two more fretlesses - a Rick Turner and a Modulus Q6. I think I'd struggle to 'really' sound like Jaco on any of them - I could fumble my way through black market on the jazz and sound like someone trying to sound like Jaco but it's not going to be great. I'm sure that Franc, given his chosen style of music, could do a much more impressive jaco impersonation than I, but if he's writing a solo tune on a fretless bass, sounding like jaco or not should be the last thing on his mind - sounding like Franc should be top of the list - it's what he's best at.

BTW - this is in no way intended as a critique of Franc's playing or writing - he hasn't asked for it and i haven't given it - it's just a musing on the notion that things should be avoided if they are too closely associated with another player...

Sorry - that was probably more my thoughts than anything in the actual music. I listen to Franc's album and only hear his sound and ideas, although I know he is a big Jaco fan - as many people are - he has written a "tribute" to Jaco, called "Florida Flash". I don't really know what he was trying to do on Pearl and I shouldn't have written as if I did - the similarities are in the title and the fact that they are both solo bass pieces.

That's cool Bruce, it's interesting that you drew the comparison - solo bass is such a small field that there are bound to still be parallels drawn between those who did it first and people doing it now, especially when Franc's album is 'bassist as leader' with the one solo bass tune thrown in, similar to Jaco's debut.

i'm sure that as distance is built between the originator and those that follow, those comparisons will become less neccesary as the whole field of solo bass will widen out into different 'camps', just as solo acoustic guitar has done, or solo piano. At the moment, there is still an obvious and plottable lineage in the history of solo bass - from the upright guys like David Friesen and Eberhard Weber, and 'the original' Coin Hodgkinson (who may well have been the first to take that route with elec. bass), through Jaco and Stanley (who I think was the first to do a 'big' tour' with nothing but a bass guitar, or so one of his press releases said...) to Stu Hamm, Manthing, Jonas, Jeff doin' Dixie, Victor Wooten, and now the list grows longer, as the ever growing links page at www.solobassnetwork.org.uk will testify.

It's great that the whole field is growing, that people's approaches to solo bass are growing wider and wider - from pop/funk like Victor's stuff to Cat Hope in Australia who does industrial/noise stuff with just a bass!!

The comparisons that you make between Jaco and Franc are valid and sensible, and reflective of the limited lineage of solo bass, but they are links that will get dimmer as time goes on...

cheers

Steve
www.steve-lawson.co.uk

I think Marcus Miller revolutionized slap bass, every note he plays means something, is never thin, or wanky. His fretless tone is sweet. I love Jaco's tone also, and Anthony Jackson. Recently, I've been playing stand up and I think everyone should look up Boguslaw Furtok on you tube. You can't be any more bad ass than this guy is. No one on bass pages ever seems to metion this, but I think Reggae bass tones have litterally crushed all weaker sounds i.e. all the way from the groove master Aston "Family man" Barrett, this man has the best note placement of anyone ever. He is such a genius. He never wastes a note. Also check out Ziggy Marleys bass player Pablo Stennett, his tone slams, as do any of a number of reggae bass players. I also love the bass on all of Dr. Dre's cuts. Great tone, tons of space to breathe, and no wasted notes. I think reggae bass is highly underrated. Also Stevie Wonder, he's just so funk. I think Phil Lesh has some crushing tones too. Anyone else a reggae fan?

Many fine players mentioned here!

Here's a name you don't see mentioned a lot:

Nils-Henning Orsted Pederson.

His sound on upright is unparalleled IMHO, esp. his work with Oscar Peterson.

I recall the first time I heard him I could not believe the overall/sheer strength of his whole sound:

the ideas, the tone, the note-attack, actual note choice, the articulation, the fluidity, the precision, the strength (both physical and musical)... everything that made/makes up his sound...

With all due respect to the many, many fine URB players past & present, his sound made the hair on the back of my neck stand up & still does.

An astonishing sound from an astonishing player.


p.s. - as far as a player's sound being likened to a writer's "voice", one "voice" that stands out for me is that of Raymond Chandler - many have tried but none have equaled his "voice" as Philip Marlowe, a fact that becomes even more apparent if one reads Chandler's letters and correspondence... JMHO.

What an interesting topic! Thanks Steve for posing these questions, to everyone for thought provoking comments and thanks especially for the kind compliments.

Sound and timbre is such an elemental force is music. A player’s voice is certainly personal and subjective and yet there does seem to be an objective element to it. I can‘t quite put my finger on it, but effective sound always seems to me to reflect a kind of undeniable honesty.

There are tons of sounds both musical and ambient I’ve found inspiring. I’d like to mention times when Steve’s sound was particularly moving to me, but I might be accused of quid pro quo! So instead I’ll mention what a thrill it was a few years ago to listen to the great Seattle bassist Paul Hinklin play a solo version of the “Ode to Joy” from Beethoven’s 9th on a P-bass with a pick through an SVT. Done by someone else in another context, a punk version of Beethoven might have come across as cheesy, but Paul being who he is, made the music feel alive and vital.

Wow, it's fun when a 7 year old thread gets revisited, and we get to see what we thought/wrote back then...

..still a very interesting topic, especially coming back from NAMM where so many of the bass sounds on display seemed designed to cut through the noise of a trade show, rather than to make music work in a gig/recording/whatever setting...

Steve

Wow, it's fun when a 7 year old thread gets revisited, and we get to see what we thought/wrote back then...



Yes - 7 years ago I was playing electric instruments and was always dis-satisfied with the sound and was constantly fiddling,buying stuff etc.

Now I have discovered the joy of playing purely acoustically and am 100% satisfied ......until I have to amplify my Double Bass!! :p

:hyper: Guys, I'm sitting here at my desk, sort of working and I'm really struggling 'cos I'm thinking bass tone, it's driving me almost insane! Anyhow, I've had this goal to get a double-bass. It was something to reward myself for a promotion.

I then started thinking, well what about Steve's sound and Michael's - is it the graphite necks? Is that the sound I need? I put The Jazz (DAB in the UK) on and hear old Charlie on there and wow! So where do I go for guidance? Talkbass. I click through some forums and think 'I'll ask the doyens - Steve and Michael' and here it all is! What a thread! Probably the greatest ever. :eek:

Bruce - I'm also mad at myself, I was in Brighton/Hove for two days last week and never did the Jazz Club! Tell me more about the place, please.

For me I love Charlie Haden's upright sound; Steve sound is great and best of all is that Zon of Michael's. I love the sound of a fretless, in fact I much prefer playing a fretless. Another great sound is that of the British jazz bassist, Fred T Baker and Fred uses an old Squire J bass and a Galen Kruger combo and the sound is wonderful! Jaco on Heirja is wonderful and his punchy fast runs sound fab.

I've spent a bomb trying to get the right sound and even playing with a Line 6 Bass POD XT Live always leaves me wanting something else. I usually end up going nude straight through my EA amp.

What does it take to get an ace fretless sound? Graphite neck? The wood? A Zon? Acoustic bass; Upright or tons on the right amp and effects? What drives me mad is that when I'm proping up the bar at a local opne mic night for acoustic folk, I can hear the sound I want in my head and yet can't get it with my current kit.

On the UK TV programmes (lat night's Jamie Oliver Cooking or the programme about Insurance Frauds) there is often a solo bass as the background sound-track - the bass always sounds lovely and I always hope beyond hopes that this isn't computer generated sounds that I am hearing.

Apols for the ramble...:bassist:

Bruce - I'm also mad at myself, I was in Brighton/Hove for two days last week and never did the Jazz Club! Tell me more about the place, please.

Brighton Jazz club has been going for many years now at different venues on Friday night - but has just moved to the basement of the Komedia.

But it's always been about the very high standard of musicians they get - the very best of UK Jazz talent and occasional US and European visitors.

Tonight they have Peter King - one of our best Alto players leading a new quartet that has Geoff Gascoyne on bass - Jamie Cullum's basssist and arranger - but don't hold that against him - he is an excellent DB player and composer in his own right ! :p

Thanks Bruce. Pity it's a Friday, I'm a mid-week visitor to the town. Re sound, tone, timbre (or it that a lumberjack phrase?) - how do the EUB compare to traditional uprights?

Dave.

A player whose sound never fails to floor me in Gary Willis. There's a clinic video up on bassplayer.tv where Gary does a little bit of talking about his right hand technique, and does some grooving with loops from his laptop. Very inspiring.

Actually, I often find the sound of a particular player to be more musically inspiring to me than, say, the notes/technique used in a lick. I'll be walking along the street, mp3 player firmly attatched, and suddenly a little bit of sonic loveliness will leap out at me and make me think "Oh man, thats such a sweet sound! Wish I had my bass...". It's not that the sound I produce will be anywhere near the same, usually. I just get caught up in trying to create a similar response, to get my own sound to move me (or anyone else) in a way close to that orignal sound. It puts me in a much more musical mood than a lick on its own would, just underlining how fundamentlal sounds and tones are to the experience of listening to music. If it wasn't important then every two-bit cover band in the world would sound just as boss as the records they cover. You wouldn't be able to tell the difference between, say, Elvis Presley and Big Daves Magic Rubber Band...

Interesting subject. Definate food for thought.

Love JP

Thanks Bruce. Pity it's a Friday, I'm a mid-week visitor to the town. Re sound, tone, timbre (or it that a lumberjack phrase?) - how do the EUB compare to traditional uprights?

Dave.

Well ...EUB with a 42" scale length, proper DB strings and the right technique can get somewhere towards an amplified DB - but nothing beats the real thing!

I bought the EUB as I could not find a DB that I liked in my price range at the time - having done that though, I find real DB immensely more satisfying to play and helps to get the kind of sound and feel I really love!

I keep the EUB as an indestructible backup and for gigs where there is little room - it is also easier to amplify at high volume, being solid.

So - dropped my DB on the floor from a few feet and the neck pops off!!Easy to get repaired in time, but disastrous if on the way to a gig! Whereas the EUB survived a car crash on the M4 completely intact and may well have taken the full impact of a car that hit me side-on! :p

I think Greg Cohen's sound in John Zorn's Masada is beautiful. Not only the tone of the bass (very woody and moaning) but the hypnotically repetitive lines. That whole group has an incredible sound, IMO.

It's amazing how much gear is marketed to bassists promising better tone, and yet how few bass players manage to achieve a truly distinctive and effective sound.

Bass may be one of the easiest instruments on which to get an adequate tone, but developing really outstanding bass tone is deceptively difficult I've found. I've always believed that we each have an "ideal bass sound" in our head, which varies from person to person, and probably has a lot to do with early influences we were exposed to. Some of my early influences were actually analog keyboard bass and bass pedal sounds in bands like Genesis and Stevie Wonder, and lately I'm finding myself a bit frustrated with the inability to reproduce that kind of sound on bass guitar! Does anyone else get frustrated by the general lack of articulation of bass guitars? Modern basses are much better in this regard, but still never have the same kind of attack as a good key bass sound, in my opinion.

I too am one of those players that believe tone is something more between the player and the instrument than anything else downstream.

I began to improve as a player in my own eyes when I realized how many sounds were available to me from my largely unmodified P-bass. So many subtle ways to set a string into motion.

JKT

Good points and thanks. I have, like many of us, several basses here. My jazz bass is a 1985 model produced when the Japanese were reproducing early 60s models better than the US factory could (or so the legend has it). It's great and it was a song. What you say JKT regarding technique is bang on - the equaliser of the gods (right hand) does allow some lovely tones to be produced from the instrument. I think the thing with a good Fender is that they sound they produce are the sounds you have grown up hearing - they have to sound right.

However, the sound I want is a fretless tone that I can hear (in my head) but can not produce. Saying that, my fretless is a Westone Thunder (remember them?) and acoustically the timbre is wonderful. Plug her in and she just can't cut it, the sound just isn't right.

What you say JKT regarding technique is bang on - the equaliser of the gods (right hand) does allow some lovely tones to be produced from the instrument. I think the thing with a good Fender is that they sound they produce are the sounds you have grown up hearing - they have to sound right.

However, the sound I want is a fretless tone that I can hear (in my head) but can not produce. Saying that, my fretless is a Westone Thunder (remember them?) and acoustically the timbre is wonderful. Plug her in and she just can't cut it, the sound just isn't right.

Makes you wonder what is standing in the way of that sound getting to the speaker? What have you tried?

JKT

Strangely enough - one of my favourite-sounding basses ever - was a fretless Westone Thunder 3 I had in the 1980s - I used to get comments on how wonderful it sounded from studio engineers etc. etc.

But it was damaged in a transit van - some knobs got broken - and it never sounded as good again - despite taking it back to the shop and having it worked on by a guitar tech who I trusted!!

That was always a mystery to me...:confused:

Hey steve

Interesting discussion about tone - I've always believed that within reason the tone comes from the player - I suspect you and I would always sound like ourselves whatever instrument we played. When talking of double bass players we tend to talk about 'their sound' and that's got nothing to do with the instrument or amplification, it's to do with attack, articulation, muting, the type of skin on your fingers, left hand pressure, note choice and all that. For beginners, it's question of practice and experience, to develop an effective technique I've seen so many young players trying bass after bass, amp after amp and never getting a sound they like.

The sound you'll get is only as good as the sound you hear in your head.

On the subject of attack, in relation to synth basses etc, these days I find myself playing with a pick quite often, just for that really clean attack and sometimes with a really thin pick for the 'click' - remember the great tic-tac bass sound on 50's and 60's C&W and American pop records. There's a tendency among bass guitar players to suggest that if you're not playing fingerstyle, you're not playing properly - the proper sound is the right sound for the music, and if that's with a pick or one of your ebows so be it.

Keep the faith Steve

marc brownstein of the disco biscuits :-P

Bruce - the Westone Thunder Fretless I have has had a modification. A very early senior moment took the brigde pick-up out and replaced with a Rick' pick-up. I took it to Joe the tech in Birmingham a few years back and he reckoned that due to the value it wasn't worth spending the money on. I really need to get the flat wounds off and put something else on again. As I've mentioned, acoustically it sounds great, especially with those stethoscope headphones from the US. Through an amp it just can't get it out. If however I ever eBay it and someone runs a search on here and finds this thread - it stillis the greatest fretless bass in value for money and quality terms ever :)

Yes - same experience - it's strange that an instrument that sounds great unplugged can't be made to sound good amplified - despite the best efforts of experts in the field!!??

I think it may be to do with the fact that bass guitar is really a "happy accident" and shouldn't sound as good as it does for its size.....?

After it was damaged - mine just sounded hollow and nasal - whereas before it was rich and full!

I think it goes without saying that perception of a "pure" or even simply "good" tone is subjective- what intrests me greatly is how that tone is perceived by the human ear.

every ear is unique or in other words, the way in which we as individuals process frequencies is unique. take for example, Les Claypool who is partially deaf in one ear - I forget which one, but I would suspect that his reliance on one ear over the other has altered the way his brain processes audio signals (i.e. left brain/right brain differences) and thusly affected the sound he strives for.

Im playing with a singer/songwriter right now with a similar situation where her ear favors certain frequencies over others. the result being totally wacked out compositions that are incredibly enjoyable to listen to. she plays all by ear and has no training in theory but the chords and changes she comes up with are very cool.

I was born with auditory processing disorder, which to avoid a lengthy explanation meant that I was kind of a space case all through my childhood- primarily because my brain wasn't processing higher frequencies (apd is much more complex than I give it credit for- my parents thought I might have been autistic before taking me in for tests). most of my childhood teachers were female and as a result I got in trouble for always day dreaming in class- not because I was lazy but because it was exhausting trying to understand what they were lecturing on (btw, I became an awesome student when I started having male teachers). It makes sense then why I would gravitate toward a lower frequency instrument as opposed to something like a guitar or violin.

however, (and i'm still unsure as to why) since having played bass for almost 10 years my ear has grown fond of those higher frequencies I used to be deaf to.

So I guess what I'm trying to posit here is that our "ideal tone" is not only unique but also something that grows and changes with us.

Hey steve

Interesting discussion about tone - I've always believed that within reason the tone comes from the player..

Indeed - though it seems that the key to good gear is that it stays out of the way of the tone that the player has in mind and fingers getting out to the audience... if a bass is incapable of reproducing certain frequencies, the player's 'vibe' will still be there, just muffled... like listening to a great album on laptop speakers. It's still a great album, you just can't always tell why ;)

There's a tendency among bass guitar players to suggest that if you're not playing fingerstyle, you're not playing properly - the proper sound is the right sound for the music, and if that's with a pick or one of your ebows so be it.

Those kind of discussions used to get my riled and I'd answer them, and now there aren't enough hours in the day to bother with people who put those kind of limits on creativity. :)

I guess the key to this is that your 'sound' is not what you play music with, it IS the music. The music is a complete synthesis of the notes, the sounds, the feel, the intention and the environment in which its listened to... Ignore any one of those, and you'll struggle to connect...

(I guess it's worth noting here that Pete was my bass teacher at college many moons ago, and probably did more than just about anyone to encourage me to think outside the box, and also to teach, and HOW to teach... definitely up there alongside Michael Manring, Todd Johnson, Doug Wimbish and Jonas Hellborg in the list of people who have influenced the bassness of my musical world the most!)

Steve

cloren - fascinating story. I know a few musicians with different kinds of hearing problems that have shaped the way they perceive and play music... it's an area I'd like to read more about...

thanks for sharing!

Steve

Back to the "nuts and bolts" of the tone discussion, I know Mr Manring uses some piezo mixed in with the regular magnetic pickup ( that AMAZING tone makes me absolutely cry :crying: BTW), What techniques do you guys use to minimize "artifact" or stray noise when you use a lot of piezos in your sound? For example, I can hear some of the de-tuners "clicking" or fingers sliding down the string.

Purity of sound is all in the eyes(well, ears) of the beholder. A players sound and his instruments tone have involve so many variables in them, one could spend their entire life trying to get the "pure bass sound" they once heard, and never even get close.

It has to do with what the bass was made out of, how it was made, where it was made, where you are now, what is doing the vibrating, what is reading those vibrations, the tension on the strings, the tone shaping, how the strings are being struck, what is striking them, what the signal is passing through, what is reproducing the sounds, where the sounds are being reproduced, and on and on into infinty.

Pure sound would be a beautiful thing to have, but when players spend to much time thinking about things as minute as these, they tend to forget about what its all really about; The music. Personally, i'd rather just have a good sound and spend my time enjoying what i'm doing, rather than worry about "purity".

Hi, Steve,

Amongst "pure sounds" I've been enjoying this week Ron Carter stands out for his sound behind Tommy Flanagan on the Duke's "It Don't Mean a Thing". It's #1 on the Master Trio album. See http://tinyurl.com/6564bx There's a wonderful thick buzz to Carter's sound, combined with luscious glissandos. It does no harm that he swings like a jackhammer. Lovely, lovely sound.

Some years back I discovered David Barard, the New Orleans bassist, through his work on Dr John's "Duke Elegant" album. Again, the sound is simply gorgeous. I'm still wondering how he achieved it. I think there must be some multi-layer recording there, so there's a really smooth bottom pulse, with more piano twang layered on top. I'd be interested to know your thoughts, if you have the album.

I got to see Barard play in London a couple of years back, and he swung and slapped so hard live too. It was thrilling.

All the best from Austin!
Dominik

That's kind of ironically funny - as if you do search of these forums and particularly the Double Bass side - Ron Carter is the one Jazz "great", who (while nobody can deny his musicianship) comes in for most criticism in terms of his sound, which often lets him down as poorly amplified and "electric". :eyebrow: