Perhaps this is a silly and ignorant question, but what is the difference between 7/4 and 7/8 other than which note value gets one beat.

Is there really a difference? Or are they pretty much the same thing other than how they are written on the page?

From a composers point of view, wouldn't the decission between writting a piece in 7/4 or 7/8 simply be a matter of choice regarding preference of style (as in, again, which note gets the beat)?

The big difference is the metrum, the accents the measure gets. This is different in 7/8.
This, and the tempo difference, is for example the reason why you get 3/4 & 6/8 blues rhythms. (AFAIK)
Pls correct me if im wrong.

OK.
It does have to do with phrasing, but mostly melodic phrasing. If you are looking at a bunch of tied eighth notes, quarter notes etc etc, then maybe 7/8 would make more sense written as 7/4. Likewise, if you've got a 7/4 tune written and there's all kinds of phrasing that's broken and going across the bar line and on weak beats and written highly syncopated, maybe it would make more sense (ie easier to read) if it were written with the 8th note as the note that gets 1 beat in the measure, that is in 7/8.

4

It does have to do with phrasing, but mostly melodic phrasing. If you are looking at a bunch of tied eighth notes, quarter notes etc etc, then maybe 7/8 would make more sense written as 7/4. Likewise, if you've got a 7/4 tune written and there's all kinds of phrasing that's broken and going across the bar line and on weak beats and written highly syncopated, maybe it would make more sense (ie easier to read) if it were written with the 8th note as the note that gets 1 beat in the measure, that is in 7/8.

OK, that's what I thought. I wrote a piece of mine out in 7/8 thinking it would make more sense... but I thought it looked more difficult to read than it needed to be and wrote it out in 7/4 and thought it looked easier to read.

The melody is rather simple (sax players are going to have a hard enough time counting to 7 as it is :D ), but the bass/rhythm is indeed highly syncopated. I, personally, feel more comfortable dealing with quarter and eighth-notes than with eighth- and sixteenth-notes, so I kept it at 7/4... I was wondering if this is perfectly acceptable, or if I was commiting some kind of faux-pas. ;-)

If you're wanting other people to read and play it then you should go for whichever one is easier to read, so long as it doesn't change the feel of the bar. There's no point in getting a sax player more confused than usual.

There's no point in getting a sax player more confused than usual.

Yup, they're pretty confused usually :D

I would be too if I could play 32nd notes on Cherokee......for 74 choruses

LEXI - mostly they seem to be confused about when to STOP...

you know, sort of " I didn't play anything that made any sense on the first 300 chrouses so I should take at least one more, yeah that's it."

LEXI - mostly they seem to be confused about when to STOP...

you know, sort of " I didn't play anything that made any sense on the first 300 chrouses so I should take at least one more, yeah that's it."

Yeah, classic.

Shorter GOOD solos to me, are the hardest to master.

Funny how the saxes, brass, piano and guitar will take soo many choruses to solo, but when it comes to the bass I get glares and messages to finished up if I take more than two!

:spit:

Funny how the saxes, brass, piano and guitar will take soo many choruses to solo, but when it comes to the bass I get glares and messages to finished up if I take more than two!

:spit:

Lay out during their next 28 choruses, so they can go a-la Trane..... :D

It's all Greek to Me...

It's all Greek to Me...

Ειναι και για μενα!

4

7/4 - 7/8:

Gotta get the same denominator first, remember?

14/8 - 7/8 = 7/8

The difference is 7/8, not 4!

It's all Greek to Me...

You must be a drummer. :D

You must be a drummer. :D

Oo...that was rough!

Hi Everybody...

I don't play tunes in those different meters that much, but I'll share my experince anyway...

When I play a tune written in 7/8, I usually play something that reminds of a 7/8-clave. Brad Mahldau does it on "Introducing Brad Mehldau", I'm not shure but I think is track 1, "It might as well be spring"... They seem to have some kind of a clave that they play around all the time.

Well, then to the 7/4 section... :)

I would say that 7/4 somewhat more relaxed to play than 7/8, it might be because of the longer measures... :eyebrow: (pls correct me if I'm wrong!!)
Then again that depends on what tempo you're playing of course. :)

The first track on Brian Blade Fellowship "Perceptual" is in 7/4, that gives you something to compare with... (If you have both cd's that is.)

I know I'm not being very clear, but at least I gave it a shot! ;)

Mr. Engberg, Denmark...

i played a piece once written in 7 1/2 / 8...no joke.

I write in odd meters quite a bit. For me, 7/8 is like 6/8, and would have two main pulses per measure -- ONE two three ONE two three four -- and is probably a pretty quick 3+4 or 4+3. 7/4 is like 4/4 has seven pulses per measure -- ONE two three four five six seven -- and could divided any old way. So choosing would be a question of how I "heard" the count. 14/8, which I've never used I don't think, I would think of as a bossa-like 3+3+2+3+3 or somesuch, like an extension of 11/8. But the 8 denominator usually implies groupings of 3 in some way.

Funny this came up again - as a few days ago I saw the documentary about the making of Pink Floyd's "Dark Side of the Moon" album again -and Dave Gilmour definitely says that "Money" is in 7/8 time - whereas it feels like 7/4 to me for all the reasons discussed here...:confused:

i played a piece once written in 7 1/2 / 8...no joke.

"1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 5, 6, 7....8....Where's Don Ellis Now?"

----Red Mitchell

:D

Well, the way I see it, in 7/4 you've got seven quarter notes to a bar or
measure, in 7/8 you have seven eight notes in a measure. In my experience, tunes written or arranged in seven are usually in 7/4 notation, on the other hand, most of the 7/8 things I've seen (not very many I might add), have been in tunes originally written in 4/4, and to make things rhythmically interesting (most times, just difficult) you'll see a 7/8 section, which would indicate a rhythm change. Sometimes (in 4/4) you'll just have a phrase that is one eighth note short, (when you see this, count the measures in eight notes) thus making that bar the 7/8, in this case the eighth note pulse stays the same, you just have one eight note less to count before going back to 4/4 bar). There is a tune by the Brecker Bros. "Some Skunk Funk" that is a good example of a tune in 4/4, w/ a very hip 7/8 bar written at the end of a phrase just before the bridge. I can't remember exactly where, haven't herd it in more than 20 years. As for playing patterns in odd meters, you've got to check where the melody is, and the create your line around that, here is where you'll subdivide the bar to fit the groove and the melody. Hope it helps.

Peace Out,
R

This is crazy!

The difference between 7/4 and 7/8 is the way that it's written on the page and nothing more. Nothing more.

Well, the way I see it, in 7/4 you've got seven quarter notes to a bar or
measure, in 7/8 you have seven eight notes in a measure. In my experience, tunes written or arranged in seven are usually in 7/4 notation, on the other hand, most of the 7/8 things I've seen (not very many I might add), have been in tunes originally written in 4/4, and to make things rhythmically interesting (most times, just difficult) you'll see a 7/8 section, which would indicate a rhythm change. Sometimes (in 4/4) you'll just have a phrase that is one eighth note short, (when you see this, count the measures in eight notes) thus making that bar the 7/8, in this case the eighth note pulse stays the same, you just have one eight note less to count before going back to 4/4 bar). There is a tune by the Brecker Bros. "Some Skunk Funk" that is a good example of a tune in 4/4, w/ a very hip 7/8 bar written at the end of a phrase just before the bridge. I can't remember exactly where, haven't herd it in more than 20 years. As for playing patterns in odd meters, you've got to check where the melody is, and the create your line around that, here is where you'll subdivide the bar to fit the groove and the melody. Hope it helps.

Peace Out,
R

Sorry bud,
this is crazy talk. Kids, listen to uncle Ray

This is crazy!

The difference between 7/4 and 7/8 is the way that it's written on the page and nothing more. Nothing more.

Exactly. Or maybe not. Who cares. The Brazilians write Bossa Nova in 2/4, with the "heartbeat" being dotted eighth, sixteenth. But maybe that's because it is felt in two. In the end all that matters is what it sounds like. Or as somebody once said, as long as you start together and end together, ain't nobody's business what's in between.

The difference between 7/4 and 7/8 is the way that it's written on the page and nothing more. Nothing more.


Yup. All the rest is psycho acoustics.


FONZIE - I've never seen the meter you described, but Stravinsky called that same thing "15/16" in the original score to "Rite of Spring".

Yup. All the rest is psycho acoustics.




That's true, as far as it goes, but there are conventions in notation that help get the writer's point across. (Of course, if we don't agree on the conventions...) Meters in x/8 tend to beat in dotted rhythms, whereas meters in x/4 tend to beat squarely, either four or two to the bar. There's all kinds of exceptions, of course, but I think I'd look at something in 7/8 (half, dotted quarter, half, dotted quarter) (or vice versa) differently than in 7/4 (quarter, quarter, quarter...). All things being equal, it's probably easier to read 7/4, just because you can get rid of all the flags. (So write in 7/2.)

I know this tread and time signature are open to interpretation, but as stated earlier, it mostly has to do with tempo. Subdividing the time when writing will usually dictate which time signature to use... it wouldn't make the most sense to be scribing out a plethra of 16/32/64th notes in the mix, especially if the transcription was meant for other musicians to read as a reference. To me, with the acception a 6/8, eight note meters seem to be reserved for faster tempos. As long as the feeling is understood by all musicians involved, there doesn't need to be a handful of headaches over the situation. So... you be the judge.

~ Tobias

it all depends what time sig. you are in to start with!
in 4/4 time 7/4 is 3 beats longer per bar, in 7/8 its half a beat shorter per bar. simple!

it all depends what time sig. you are in to start with!
in 4/4 time 7/4 is 3 beats longer per bar, in 7/8 its half a beat shorter per bar. simple!

Yes, but that's only true if you are starting in 4/4 and changing time sigs. That doesn't work when the whole peice is 7/4 or 7/8. But in that case, there are going to be 7 beats to a bar no matter what.

The way I have become accustomed to looking at it is as a matter of readability. 7/4 means seven beats to a bar, with the quarter note demarcating the beat — and that's it. I won't try to attach anything else, like rhythm or pulses or any other ambiguous or subjective interpretations.

i played a piece once written in 7 1/2 / 8...no joke.


is there somthing wrong with just saying 15/16?

Well, the conventions (such as they are) tend to be:
* 7/8 implies a faster tempo (7/16 really fast).
* 7/4 tends to be counted as a fairly straight pulse, perhaps subdivided 4-3 or 3-4, but the subdivision would tend to be pretty weak. Peter Gabriel's Salsbury Hill is a good example of this sound.
* 7/8 is more likely to have a strongly subdivided measure. Most commonly 2-2-3 or 3-2-2 although there is a Bulgarian form which I usually counted as 2-2-2-1.

But none of these are hard and fast rules. I agree with the earlier poster that Money sounds 7/4, but the composer says 7/8. There's a piece that we play with the big band I'm in (Extensions--awful tune, btw) which has a short break in 7/4, but I would have notated it as 7/8, marked it eighth=eighth and doubled the number of measures (and that, in fact, is how I play it).

Perhaps this is a silly and ignorant question, but what is the difference between 7/4 and 7/8 other than which note value gets one beat.

Is there really a difference? Or are they pretty much the same thing other than how they are written on the page?

From a composers point of view, wouldn't the decission between writting a piece in 7/4 or 7/8 simply be a matter of choice regarding preference of style (as in, again, which note gets the beat)?

Short Answer:

From what I usually see in my symphony and brass quintet (I am a tubist by trade) 7/4 is a melodic feeling meter of 3+4, 4+3 (etc.) with beats of equal length.

Whereas 7/8 has a distinct feeling of being in 3/4, but with one beat stretched by 50%. Put music using these meters in front of professional orchestral musicians and this is how they will interpret it every time.

This is how I would notate my own stuff since this is the common difference in feel.

This is how a conductor would direct sections in these meters. (I do that, too.)

Long Answer:

7/8 is always conducted in 3/4 with one long beat. It is a very strong rhythmic device. The composer can group the 3 beats to have the long beat on 1, 2, or 3. Some choose to randomize where this long beat falls, which is sort of "lame" feeling to me, never really settling in for the listener. Settling in on a 1-2, 1-2, 1-2-3 pattern (or whatever) can give the piece a really cool groove to ride in.

Example:
Sensemaya, Silvestre Revueltas (Strong 3/4 with a long third beat.)
Mother, The Police, Synchronicity (Actually kinda like a 6/8 with a long second beat, still very much a rhythmic device; creates a LOT of tension when combined with the constant use of tri-tones.)

7/4 has a consistent beat length, using larger and smaller groupings of those beats. It is melodic in nature and usually conducted in 4+3 or 3+4 to follow the predominant groupings.

Example:
Firebird Suite, Stravinsky (Last big section, #203 to nearly the end; it is 7/4 conducted in two-bar-long groupings of 3+2+2, 2+2+3, over and over. It is fast and could be conducted in 3 like 7/8 if the conductor wants to do so. Some do. I have only done it in the manner described above.)

If the 7/4 is truly in 7 and not merely groupings of what feel like long and short bars into a larger unit (which is pretty rare) then you will get to see the stick swinger's personal version of a 7 pattern (also sort of uncommon).

Example:
Money, Pink Floyd (The more that I listen to this, the more convinced I am that the thing is truly in 7 and lacks any sort of internal "X+X" groupings. The bass lick feels like 3+4, but the song feels like it only really has one strong beat per bar. It is notated in 7/8, which is not really how they play it. But if you compose a piece you can do whatever you like. I have *never* seen 7/8 performed so slowly a lacking in a STRONG feeling of three beats per bar. Never.)

Clear as mud? Gooood!

Wade "Your friendly, local, theoretical, crack-pot tuba player" Rackley
Principal Tuba
Mississippi Symphony Orchestra
(Yeah, it is a full time position that I moved here for, and we have all worn shoes and driven cars for at least a whole year now . . . ) :hiding:

*****EDIT*****

This is all my opinion, but it is based on a LOT of orchestral experience in many places that led me to where I now live, including NYC and Dallas. I guess that I should have just said that an idea notated in 7/8 will not get played the same as if the composer had notated it in 7/4; the unit of beat is different. 7/8 is quarter, quarter, dotted quarter; 7/4 is quarter, quarter, quarter, quarter, quarter, quarter, quarter.

Seriously: I am sorry to post such a looooong post and I am not trying to start a flame war. See y'all in the funny pages!

I read where a new member of Don Ellis' band remarked, "That's not a time signature, that's a hat size!"

Short Answer:

From what I usually see in my symphony and brass quintet (I am a tubist by trade) 7/4 is a melodic feeling meter of 3+4, 4+3 (etc.) with beats of equal length.

Whereas 7/8 has a distinct feeling of being in 3/4, but with one beat stretched by 50%. Put music using these meters in front of professional orchestral musicians and this is how they will interpret it every time.

This is how I would notate my own stuff since this is the common difference in feel.

This is how a conductor would direct sections in these meters. (I do that, too.)

Long Answer:

7/8 is always conducted in 3/4 with one long beat. It is a very strong rhythmic device. The composer can group the 3 beats to have the long beat on 1, 2, or 3. Some choose to randomize where this long beat falls, which is sort of "lame" feeling to me, never really settling in for the listener. Settling in on a 1-2, 1-2, 1-2-3 pattern (or whatever) can give the piece a really cool groove to ride in.

Example:
Sensemaya, Silvestre Revueltas (Strong 3/4 with a long third beat.)
Mother, The Police, Synchronicity (Actually kinda like a 6/8 with a long second beat, still very much a rhythmic device; creates a LOT of tension when combined with the constant use of tri-tones.)

7/4 has a consistent beat length, using larger and smaller groupings of those beats. It is melodic in nature and usually conducted in 4+3 or 3+4 to follow the predominant groupings.

Example:
Firebird Suite, Stravinsky (Last big section, #203 to nearly the end; it is 7/4 conducted in two-bar-long groupings of 3+2+2, 2+2+3, over and over. It is fast and could be conducted in 3 like 7/8 if the conductor wants to do so. Some do. I have only done it in the manner described above.)

If the 7/4 is truly in 7 and not merely groupings of what feel like long and short bars into a larger unit (which is pretty rare) then you will get to see the stick swinger's personal version of a 7 pattern (also sort of uncommon).

Example:
Money, Pink Floyd (The more that I listen to this, the more convinced I am that the thing is truly in 7 and lacks any sort of internal "X+X" groupings. The bass lick feels like 3+4, but the song feels like it only really has one strong beat per bar. It is notated in 7/8, which is not really how they play it. But if you compose a piece you can do whatever you like. I have *never* seen 7/8 performed so slowly a lacking in a STRONG feeling of three beats per bar. Never.)

Clear as mud? Gooood!

Wade "Your friendly, local, theoretical, crack-pot tuba player" Rackley
Principal Tuba
Mississippi Symphony Orchestra
(Yeah, it is a full time position that I moved here for, and we have all worn shoes and driven cars for at least a whole year now . . . ) :hiding:

*****EDIT*****

This is all my opinion, but it is based on a LOT of orchestral experience in many places that led me to where I now live, including NYC and Dallas. I guess that I should have just said that an idea notated in 7/8 will not get played the same as if the composer had notated it in 7/4; the unit of beat is different. 7/8 is quarter, quarter, dotted quarter; 7/4 is quarter, quarter, quarter, quarter, quarter, quarter, quarter.

Seriously: I am sorry to post such a looooong post and I am not trying to start a flame war. See y'all in the funny pages!

Yes all this is correct. It's the way it is felt and conducted. Things in 8 are gerally compound meters and are conducted and felt in groups of three. 7/4 would be conducted in seven and felt as one bar or 3/4 and one of 4/4.

Jon

And it sucks for dancing.

And it sucks for dancing.

Pink Floyd's "Money" is one of their most danceable tracks ever ! I remember when it came out and the idea was wierd of having this played in Discos - but in actuality, nobody seemed to be bothered that it was in 7 - they just danced!! :)

I love going to Greece each year and if we can , we go to see some traditional Greek Dancing - but just about every song seems to have a different time signature, which sort of "identifies" the dance. It actually seems to make it easier for people to dance because the dance steps only work this way!

Anyway - I've seen all sorts of people dancing away and loving it, in some very odd time signatures!! :)

I play the music of "my homeland", which is rembetika, laika, asia minor, etc. There's the Zeimbeikiko in 9/4, there's 7/4, 5/4, 13/4, blah blah blah (feel free to change the 4 to an 8). The music is written expressively for dancing. The subdivisions are where it's at.

Very danceable, just maybe not for white people :D

I play the music of "my homeland", which is rembetika, laika, asia minor, etc. There's the Zeimbeikiko in 9/4, there's 7/4, 5/4, 13/4, blah blah blah (feel free to change the 4 to an 8). The music is written expressively for dancing. The subdivisions are where it's at.

Very danceable, just maybe not for white people :D

That sounds very much like the Greek music we were listening to! I suppose Cyprus is linked in to the same culture?

I definitely can't dance to it - but my girfriend loves dancing to it - she is half Irish, half German.

In fact last September, when we went to Halkidiki, she was the only one amongst our party who actually got up and danced with the Greeks - I was just sitting there talking to another British guy and counting frantically - going - bloody hell - that's in 13!! :eek:

:D

That sounds very much like the Greek music we were listening to! I suppose Cyprus is linked in to the same culture?

I definitely can't dance to it - but my girfriend loves dancing to it - she is half Irish, half German.

In fact last September, when we went to Halkidiki, she was the only one amongst our party who actually got up and danced with the Greeks - I was just sitting there talking to another British guy and counting frantically - going - bloody hell - that's in 13!! :eek:

:D

Yes Bruce, the music in Cyprus is basically the same stuff you would hear in Greece!

It's funny, cause I've known people here that were really into progrock like Yes, King Crimson, etc - groups that play in unusual meters a lot. Once you get used to the feel, though, the music flows. It's really beautiful

I was mostly being a smartass.

People can dance to "Money". And people can internalize all kinds of rhthyms and tonal systems in their acculturation to a human society.

Most people -- the world over -- don't, though.

As for "Money" being "one of the most danceable tracks ever", well, it wouldn't be on my list. I've made thousands of people dance in my defunct R&B band. What I've observed to be in that vein is more along the lines of "Let's Stay Together" and "Hold On I'm Coming".

As for "Money" being "one of the most danceable tracks ever"..

Well if you go back and look I didn't actually say that, I said :

"Pink Floyd's "Money" is one of their most danceable tracks ever ! "

So - I was comparing it with other Pink Floyd stuff in 4/4 or whatever - they're not generally considered, as a "Dance Band" !! ;)

So - I was comparing it with other Pink Floyd stuff in 4/4 or whatever - they're not generally considered, as a "Dance Band" !! ;)

I think Roger Waters would be quite pissed off if he heard someone refer to the Floyd as a dance band lol!

Absolutely, Bruce. I re-checked your statement AFTER I sent my reply and realized I'd had a d'oh moment.

i played a piece once written in 7 1/2 / 8...no joke.


The only composer I know of who wrote in Four and a half/Four meter

WHy not just call it Seven?

As a composer, I don't think there really is a difference between 7/8 and 7/4. it's the size of the beat and the clarity with which it can be read. Becuase that's what writing anything out is about. Making it so that people can read it easily. There really is no "right" way to write stuff, some stuff is just easier to read than other stuff. For instance, writing a tune where teh accents in the melody make in in 4/4, but scoring the peice in 2/8. It would just be messy.

Furthermore, with larger odd meter, I find that breaking stuff up makes things easier anyways.

For instance. 7/4 can be a bar of four, a bar of three
a bar of two a bar of three a bar of two
or a bar of 6/8, 6/8 and 2/8

etc.

It depends on how the accents lay.

I have a tune in 5/4 and 11/4 that I'm having played as part of the USM composer's concert, but the 11/4 measures are too big and messy, so it's in 6/4 and 5/4.

The bars of five are all essentially 3 and 2 anyways. (and there is an occasional extra bar of three in there, but it makes things seem more natural as opposed to more contrived)

So uh. Yeah.

peace
and I mean it
Asher

I agree. 7/8 never feels like 7 beats a measure. Everything I've ever played in 7/8 has been felt in three asymmetrical beats (2+2+3; 2+3+2; 3+2+2). Roger Waters was trying to look like a post-modern composer, and he failed.

Well, Alexi, as a Greek musician myself, there are various ways to play 7/8. You have kalamatiano as 123-12-12, tik (northern Greece) 12-12-123, or I've heard an Albanian form of 7/8 which repeats 12-123-12.

7/4 I believe is more for straight ahead jazz or funk ala Don Ellis.

You can check out my band at www.atlantisofpa.com if you'd like. We may have a 7/8 sound bite on there.

Regards,
George

PlattsADA Quote:
"The only composer I know of who wrote in Four and a half/Four meter

WHy not just call it Seven?"



Because it's NINE! (4 1/2 / 4 = 9/8)

Deaf Pea AKA Dennis Parker-former Don Ellis bassist('70-'71)

It's about expressing an other, faster rhythm I suppose. There is a need for a different intonation and a faster tempo.
Common patterns (traditional Greek Music, Kalamata region, 7/8 is very common in Kalamata):
One-Two-Thre, One-Two, One-Two or
One-Two, One-Two-Thre, One-Two etc etc.
The metronome counts seven eighths notes.
The fact that we have eights notes makes it to have one eigth in each beat instead of two eighths as we would have in a 4/4 time for example.
I include three rhythms in 7/8. You can see the difference in intonation, the first two rhythms are 123,12,12 and the third is 12,123,12 (I am not a prof player but you will get a clue). You may notice that you cannot tell the exact time the 1-2-3 lasts (strange but true), it is not three eigths nor two eighths notes (this is a unique characteristic of traditional music here, you use unequal-undefined durations, you here it, you feel it you play it!).92282 Hope it helps, I tried my best. Thank you!

to me 7/4 and 7/8 are not comparable, they feel very different. when gilmour made that comment about money being in 7/8 i think he misspoke. it's 7/4.

check this for 7/4 it's nice and flowing. http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=eMwn_hnoS5Y

check this for 7/8 (fast forward to the keyboard solo) it doesn't flow, http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=KJd0Npkwu-I