I know the general consensus is that having a teacher is one of the most important things in DB, but has anyone taught themselves and achieved any success?

Not if they want to learn anything.

Ummm, so nobody can learn ANYTHING if they don't have a teacher?

How to play out of tune...really well.

Okay, here I go into treacherous waters....

I only have a poor old Kay-Engelhardt, it's a relative piece of crap, I know. I have never had a lesson on it. I have however played fretless bass guitar for over 25 years, and trombone before that (scholarship to University of Cinti.- College Conserv. of Music). I realize that I will never be in even the top 10,000 Double Bassists in the world, but I can play in tune. I have a very good ear, and can pretty well nail any position true to fairly true to pitch.

I really (probably) have no business posting here, I am an electric bassist first and foremost, but I had to speak up. I think it is highly arrogant to make the blanket statement that one cannot play the instrument without instruction. Come on! Successful cardiac surgery without instruction is almost impossible, but playing DB? If my only aspiration was to be principle bassist for the NYP, I would say that yes, I would absolutely need many years of study. But to find a nice walking groove to a bop tune? I have a good understanding of theory and intervals, if I had a bass that responded the way I wanted it too- well it would be much easier to play.....

You may now shred me if you wish. I just had to throw my 2 cents (and my head) into the ring. I will now slink back across the aisle.....

I started on violin at age 7, had private lessons for 4+ years, and started on URB at 11. My first and only lesson (until college) was from the school violin teacher - "Remember how your violin is tuned EADG? Well, bass is just the opposite: GDAE."

When I went to college as a string bass major and was taught by Courtney and Gravagno of the Philadelphia Orchestra for one year each, a wonderful opportunity, most of the time was spent trying to unlearn incorrect techniques and bad habits, most of which I still have today. And I today regret that I didn't take it more seriously back then. That and the fact that I hate to practice significantly limits me as a player to this day.

Ok, if you are just a casual player, sure, you can probably teach yourself bass as you would/could any other instrument. BUT if you really have any intention of really getting good at it, you should at the very least start off with a good teacher to learn the fundamentals, so that you learn to work with the instrument rather than fight with it. You'll go a lot further and the road will be easier.

i picked up a cheap Crumbora about 2 months ago and the first time i taught myself was that i needed lessons.:)

I'm not saying that studying with a teacher couldn't help me improve (there's lots of room for improvement!). I have played with a few of the jazz cats here in town, and have been told I held my ground, and recieved a compliment or two.
The area I need the most help in is my bowing technique. I use a German bow, but have lately been feeling more and more uncomfortable with it. When I first bought one years ago I was shown the proper way to hold it, but lately it has felt more awkward than usable. No doubt a teacher could get me back on the right track.

Arco is not a big part of my DB playing and I know that I am missing much by not having better technique with the bow. My vibtrato is pretty good (if I do say so myself- years of fretless). The biggest thing holding me back right now is the quality of my bass. It sounds good enough amplified - I have one of those so-damn-good K&K's from Mr. Gollihur and a Baggs Para-Acoustic DI.

I think I'll go practice now.

He did say "with any success" and I suppose that Fretless could say that he has had some success. Nevertheless, I see that lessons are crucial. I didn't take any for three years, and I did well, and i always recieved compliments, but when I took my first lesson, I then realized how much room I had to improve on. Lessons are essensial, they even help me with my BG playing. Not to downplay anything that Fretless said, but, if you want to make it anywhere you really should consider it, in the three short years I didn't take lessons, I had already picked up some nasty habits.

Some guy named Rabbath managed to do it for a while.. but even he went and got edumacated.

My playing skill has increased 3x EASILY in just 3 weeks of lessons (after "self-teaching" for 3 months), and I had 16 years of electric experience.

-a

That's true amcrory, but remember also that Edgar Meyer has made a career on a bow that's warped, been broken twice and even gnawed on. So should we discourage people from buying quality bows? I don't think so. Meaning that just because one acclaimed virtuoso manages to pull something off doesn't mean that it should become common practice or even remotely recommended.

As far as the subject at hand, I recently moved from Cleveland to Boise. The single greatest thing I miss are my teachers - moreso than my <i>family.</i> Good instruction should be a top priority, and that goes far beyond music. At the same time, in my current location there's only one bass teacher and I'm skeptical as to how much I can learn from him, so I've been going on axioms of my previous teachers with little to no evaluation of my current playing. So I can't really harp about getting a teacher as fervently as I should without being at least slightly hypocritical.

A couple more reasons to hire a teacher:

Sometimes there are flaws in your playing that only someone else can pick up on and suggest a way of correcting it. The other night I was at my lesson with Craig Thomas. He kept hearing that I was slightly flat in the area between E and the G octave harmonic. I knew I'd occassionally play flat there, but I couldn't figure out why. Answer: posture.

And studying with a cat this good, listenning to what he plays, his suggestions, etc. make you hear things you wouldn't previously have heard. So it's not enough to be able to honestly say you can play anything you hear in your head. I can play anything I hear in my head, but obviously I'm not hearing the sh*t he hears.

Any dope of an audience member can tell you you're great. Any musician on the same level as you is gonna think you're happenin'. If a teacher, whose job btw is to tell you you suck, tells you your good, that's a good indication you might not need a teacher. I suck enough for two teachers to have to tell me about it.

I don't know. On the one hand you EXHORT others to get a teacher that can be "objective" and critical about your playing, and know enough to help you, but on the other hand you say not to give any credence to compliments...but I would say your story only refers to one particular form of compliment - the compliment from the person that wasn't really focused on what you were doing to begin with. As you say, Art was really talking about his own playing, which is similar to when I play a gig and think I suck but I get a huge compliment from someone in the audience who actually wasn't really paying attention to me, but just having a good time and digging the general vibe of the club - they were digging how they felt, not necessarily how I was playing.

So I guess what I am saying (I know this sounds confrontational...but it isn't meant to be) is that it's both - *critical* observers and your own self - that need to validate, criticize, and yes, COMPLIMENT your playing. Positive reinforcement DOES help, but not without some negative. Also, one of my main goals when I play live is to make people experience emotions - to connect with the people listening to me. Also to connect with musicians I am playing with. Not just to focus on me, me, me....that tends to get me nowhere fast. In that way, the whole interlocked "thing" that's happening (myself, the musicians around me, and the audience) becomes my teacher while I am playing in a group setting. As cheesy as it sounds, the general vibe becomes my instructor.

I don't know if I even disagree with you, I think in a way I am agreeing, just pointing out that the Art Pepper story doesn't necessarily point to a universal truth about compliments, but instead to a universal truth about a particular kind of compliment. And its actually a really good, instructive story, so I don't even mean to imply I am belittling it...

By the way, I know what Dave means by "dope of an audience member" but it still kind of bugs me. Let's say this "dope" is a auto mechanic. If you were watching him fix a car and told him he was doing a great job but he wasn't, would you be a dope? I don't think so. People come to see music for a reason, and we shouldn't assume they are dopes. They pay your bills. And while they might not be able to analyze your playing for $#$#, that's not really what they are there for. That's not their job. Don't think your audience is full of dopes, or you're wasting your time.

When someone in the audience says, "you're great," what they are really saying is, "I enjoyed listenning to you; in some inexplicable way, you moved me." That is not a qualitative statement. I might think I have a great auto mechanic, he keeps my car driveable. But in reality I wouldn't know Edgar G. Bentley or Antonio Ferrari from Rufus-the-second-shift-guy at Pep Boys. I don't have a problem with the relationship either way. It's not meant as any disrespect. And to the average audience member I might as well be Mingus.

Teachers aren't supposed to be objective. They're supposed to be hyper-critical. If a teacher ever told me I'm good, that would be my last lesson with him. Positive reinforcement is for children and insecure people.

Ed: "You come perilously close to saying, in response to something I have said, that I don't listen to other musicians when I play." - if that's what I was implying, I am sorry, I could never even claim to know what you are thinking about, even if I had ever seen you play ;-)

Dave: "Positive reinforcement is for children and insecure people." - I have to agree to disagree on that. You need to know what you are doing right or you won't keep doing it. I do agree that the negative is more important though. And I would have to just say that moving someone (or myself for that matter) is very important to my sense of my mission. However you're right, and I don't think I ever disagreed (and if I implied it I didn't mean to), that a pat on the back could even equate to let alone replace a teacher....

yeah you got me. i agree on the ones dissecting my comments. i think on the "EXHORT" comment, i just meant that it seemed like at the end of your post you were saying that you should be your own critic, while eariler on you were saying that you can't be objective (or know) enough to do that, which i thought seemed a little contradictory, and i was just saying that there are probably some compliments (though I guess yeah, compliments is a dumb way to phrase what I am talking about, I am talking more about focused positive reinforcement) that can help you in the same manner that focused criticism can, and that both of them come from an external point of view, which is superior in instruction than yourself. i was unclear and such, sorry.

on the "vibe is my teacher" i was just trying to talk about the less defined but very important instruction of feeling people respond to your music, and the feeling you get when you lock in, and learning from that. of course, it is not really a learning that is instructive or technical in nature, but its one of the reasons we play. it's why everyone can tell when something swings too...

Hello again. Thanks all for the dialogue. I would just like to comment on a few things...
I know when I deserve a compliment on my playing.
Nothing annoys me more than being told "dude, you are great!" I know I'm not great, I know when I have good sets and bad. I would like to think those compliments that I mentioned here were not just meant to blow smoke up my butt. I value the opinions of the couple of guys that I have had a chance to sit in with, and I hope they were being honest and not just polite. None has yet said "come back and see me in 5 years" (or after 100 lessons).

If I was going to make an attempt at gigging full time on DB, or even playing it in public more than 2 or 3 times a year, I would run to a teacher. I know my limitations and electric bass is my main instrument, but I will keep at DB for fun and entertainment.

Lastly, I would like to say that I think it is very cool that we can have discussions like this. I know you all are right, a teacher would be great. Except for the "FECKLESS5" tag I appreciate all the ideas put forth. I suppose my main reason for not going to a teacher is $$ (currently unemployed).

Ed, I am gonna have to quote myself: "about the less defined but very important instruction of feeling people respond to your music, and the feeling you get when you lock in, and learning from that. of course, it is not really a learning that is instructive or technical in nature". I am talking about the audience, yeah but also the band. The music all together. I am most definitely not talking about SHAPING what you do to pander to the audience (easy reactions) - that's more like learning how to manipulate an audience than anything (tho that's good to at least KNOW). Anywho, I think I was just saying that there is something in the totality of a groove, esp a really bad ass one, that can envelope a place. I would be the first to remind myself and everyone else that this is intangible %^$#, you might be able to fake it if your audience is full of "dopes", but more often than not faking it isn't gonna make you happy, unless you happen to be so insecure that all you crave is a reaction. I am more talking about the feeling in the air type of thing...the unrepeatable, but always craved, intangible "thing". It's something that's hard to make clearer than that.

Originally posted by Ed Fuqua
"If a teacher ever told me I'm good, that would be my last lesson with him." hmmm, I hope I'm not misreading you here, Dave. One of the things that brought me to study with Joe was an article he wrote (and which I have posted under ARTICLES at activebass.com in the ARTICLES section "Doing It The Slow Way") in which he said " a teacher is the one who is going to say "Great, you've nailed that exercise" when you do and " Well, let's try this again another way" when you haven't. Joe never says "You sound great" or "You're a great player" but when I play something right he let's me know. And when I bring in recordings of me at gigs in stuff, he will say what sounds good to him (and what doesn't). Which is one reason I like studying with him.

No I don't think you're misreading me. I will say one exception would be if complimentary part was followed by some "buts". If I go play something for a teacher and he says, "that was good," the lessons over and I just wasted $50. I'm paying the cat to tell me what sucked, and maybe how to fix it. I'm the midst of that I'm also learning how to make my practice time more effective/eficient and how to teach myself. I don't play excercises for either of my teachers. I only play music for them. That kinda leaves out the possibility of being told I just nailed something. Everything or anything the teacher isn't telling me about implies that it was alright, no need to discuss it. When I'm told to move on to something else, well, enough said. Dig it?

Right but negative criticism has the same problem. If there are no explanations of WHY, its useless. If I walk in to a lesson, play something and my teacher says "you suck", all that'll give me is a sinking feeling. I already know I suck, but without a specific critique, I'm screwed. That's why I reject this whole positive/negative thing - both are only as good as the supporting evidence and suggestions.

Great thread everyone.

Originally posted by fretless5
Except for the "FECKLESS5" tag I appreciate all the ideas put forth.
Don't get too uptight now. One of the prime rules in DB-land is to wear your KUNG-FUQUA'd moniker with pride.;)

Originally posted by lermgalieu
Right but negative criticism has the same problem. If there are no explanations of WHY, its useless. If I walk in to a lesson, play something and my teacher says "you suck", all that'll give me is a sinking feeling. I already know I suck, but without a specific critique, I'm screwed. That's why I reject this whole positive/negative thing - both are only as good as the supporting evidence and suggestions.

I mean, "you suck" figuratively, not literally. "You Suck" is the sum total of all the nit-picking criticism, and the gimme-the-bass-to-show-you-how-it's-done endured at any given lesson.

Special K:
It's ironic - I was smiling my way through the thread as three times you articulated my thoughts before I could post them, and then we end up fundamentally, diametrically opposed: "Teachers aren't supposed to be objective," and "Positive reinforcement is for children and insecure people." There's no way I can buy this. If this answers your individual need as a student, fine, but I find it too great a leap to go on to prescribe it for every student and every teacher. I thank God that neither Linda McKnight nor Michael Moore operate that way. And if you think that means they aren't demanding, guess again. If you're training to improve in the high jump, and you finally clear your height goal, that doesn't mean your training was wasted. Raise the bar. But more important to me than positive vs negative feedback is relentless honesty. I believe this is what Ed Fuqua (the covetous one) was saying, and I agree.

I may be missing the boat on this positive vs negative reinforcement issue, but since I'm a jazz teacher (piano, toybass, theory, etc...) I'd like to add my .02c. Positive reinforcement is an extremely important part of teaching for both teacher and student. My piano teacher back in undergrad (back when dinosaurs walked the earth) and my current DB teacher are masters at constructive positive reinforcement. It's assumed that when you recieve praise for the work you've been doing between lessons (i.e. - saying "great", or "excellent" or whatever) it simply means, "Wonderful...that sounds a hell of a lot better than it did before. Of course, there's still room for improvment..." rather than "Great, you've completely mastered that, and there's no room to talk about it any more, ever". IMO, this type of positive reinforcement (the first kind, not the second) is absolutely essential to any teaching situation I can think of, whether I'm the teachER or the teachEE.

Personally, I wouldn't study with a teacher who didn't give me positive feedback when I was doing something right, but that's just me. I had a 2 1/2 hour lesson with Rufus last year, and he was one of the most positive teachers I've ever met. When I was starting to get something, I got rewarded with direct unwavering eye contact and a smile bright enough to light an entire city block. I've been lucky enough to do some ensemble teaching with him at the summer camps, and the students respond to his positive energy in such a way that he is able to get a lot further with them in a shorter time than just about any other teacher I've ever met.

Originally posted by Don Higdon
[B I thank God that neither Linda McKnight nor Michael Moore operate that way. And if you think that means they aren't demanding, guess again. If you're training to improve in the high jump, and you finally clear your height goal, that doesn't mean your training was wasted. Raise the bar. But more important to me than positive vs negative feedback is relentless honesty. I believe this is what Ed Fuqua (the covetous one) was saying, and I agree. [/B]

I'm continually raising the bar, but each time I clear I don't need to someone to tell I cleared it. Tell me, "yeah you cleared it, but I think if you arch back a little more you'll clear it with greater ease." What can I do to fine tune it? What can be better?

Don't get me wrong, neither of the cats I'm studying with are negative bastards. They're cool, friendly, etc. But, it's a teacher's job to criticize, ie. be critical, as in point out the flaws, tell the student what should be better, etc., and to keep the student raising the bar. If the teacher ain't doin' that, he ain't doin' his job. That's all I'm saying. And there's always something that can be better about someone's playing. It's the teacher's job to find it and tell the student about. You don't have to be a mean spirited bastard to be critical. I'll bet Moore and McNight do pretty much what I'm talking about.

To call all of this positive reinforcement vs. negative reinforcement is terribly inappropriate. Positive reinforcement by definition is the reinforcement of positive attitudes or behaviors, like what parents and religion and stuff are supposed to do. Negative reinforcement is the reinforcement of negative sh*t like drugs and violence; movies, tv, video games are offenders.

I'm trying to envision a lesson in which the teacher isn't critical. I can't. The criticism is what makes it a lesson. If you get a pat on the back or smile or whatever, that's great, but your playing better get criticized. I don't know what's so hard to understand.

Dave, I didn't see anyone say that a teacher shouldn't be critical. Maybe we are getting bogged down in semantics here. I think all I was saying is that being *critical* can be both positive, ie "You are doing that right because of X, Y Z, keep doing it." and negative, ie, "You are doing that wrong, due to X, Y, Z". Both are effective, and I don't mean to imply that "negative", means its a bad thing. It's not (it just means don't do X in the future, do Y instead). Criticism is a fundamentally neutral thing though - it is an honest look at something with a critical, professional eye, and a accompanying critique of both the successful and unsuccessfull aspects of it. That's probably the best I can say it - you are right, "positive reinforcement" and "negative reinforcement" carry to much semantic attachment to both psychology and children to accurately use in this discussion.

ok, this is not to be a smartass, but I am a former English major, so this is near and dear to my heart. Notice only one mentions anything specifically negative...

crit·i·cism (krt-szm)
n. Abbr. crit.

The act of criticizing, especially adversely.
A critical comment or judgment.

The art, skill, or profession of making discriminating judgments and evaluations, especially of literary or other artistic works.
A review or article expressing such judgment and evaluation.
Detailed investigation of the origin and history of literary documents, such as the Bible.

Originally posted by fretless5
I suppose my main reason for not going to a teacher is $$ (currently unemployed).

Well I pay $50 per lesson for an hour with the principal bass at the lyric opera. Throw in another $3.60 for bus and L fare to and from, that would be $53.60 to come up with each week if I were unemployed. I think between collection and redemption of cans and bottles and sales of precious bodily fluids, that target could be easily made.

Actually if I were unemployed, I would put even more effort into getting to lessons as that's 40+ hours per week that I could dedicate to practicing.

-dh

Originally posted by rablack
Great thread everyone.


Don't get too uptight now. One of the prime rules in DB-land is to wear your KUNG-FUQUA'd moniker with pride.;)

Ahhhh. In that case I am honored....?!?

It depends upon two things. 1. what you wish to accomplish. 2. your talent level.

I started with the sole intent to play simple, hillbilly music. This doesn't require much training. However I went from that to playing in a five piece combo playing old standards and jazz in clubs. In my 66.5 years I have played various versions of jazz, Country, Western Swing and Bluegrass. I played bass on one recording session with a fourteen piece orchestra. The only "lessons" I was ever privileged to have was listening and watching professionals. My bass playing was initially attractive to band leaders because of impeccable timing.

I think tah having a teacher would be wonderful.
I am a bluegrasser and played guitar for years before decidind to go DB. It was the best decision I ever made. I love playing DB but it is difficult to find a teacher in my area.

I have tried to find instruction(especially in bluegrassDB) but to no avail. Therefore I have had to rely on what I have seen and heard other bassers doing.

I have been successful in hanging in and not looking foolish, but I know that lessons would be much help.

I just do not know where to find such help

By the way, I live in North Ga, near Chattanooga Tn. if any one can help.

Thanks

Man, there are a lot of us uneducated DB'ers here in GA! Welcome Wildbill...I'm south of you just a bit, in Columbus. You might check with the nearest college and ask someone in their music dept for a recommendation. That's how I found my teacher. Also, does Chattanooga have a Symphony Orchestra? Find out who the bassist is and talk to that person.

I am amazed at the number of times "Bluegrass" comes up in the discussions over here on the DB side (not just this thread). I am pretty sure that I have never heard a "Bluegrass" tune and I don't think it is something that has made its way over here in the UK?!

So I don't know much about it, but it seems to be mentioned in the context of music that you can play without knowing much theory or having a teacher. So it strikes me that, this must be what happens to the bass guitar guys who insist that you don't need to know any theory - when they feel they are too old for rock/punk/speed metal or whatever, they turn to Bluegrass?

tick, tick, tick, tick, tick....

Who fixes basses in your area? Don't know if I have any luthiers in my list near you but check out - Double Bass Links Page - http://www.gollihur.com/kkbass/basslink.html and the luthiers directory at http://www.gollihur.com/kkbass/luthiers.html

If that doesn't help and you don't know of any, get in touch with the band director/instrumental music teacher in local high schools and ask where they get their basses fixed (and about a teacher while you have them). Get hold of a luthier and ask if they can recommend someone.

mchildree,
Thanks for your comments.
I am not sure if we are truly uneducated or just simply ill trained...lol.

I never thought of the colleges or symphony, ty for the input . i will put it to use

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield
I am pretty sure that I have never heard a "Bluegrass" tune and I don't think it is something that has made its way over here in the UK?!

If you've ever heard much American banjo music it was probably bluegrass.

So I don't know much about it, but it seems to be mentioned in the context of music that you can play without knowing much theory or having a teacher.

It's a folk based music with a fairly standardized repertoire. The music is played on some combination of acoustic guitar, banjo, fiddle, mandolin, dobro and bass. The tunes are not harmonically very complex just played at breakneck speed. Usually the music is about soloists' chops (and there are some amazingly talented players). The traditional role of the bass in bluegrass is to thump out roots and 5's - to provide the pulse. Sure there are exceptions, but mainly there's not much else for the bassist to do. You probably don't need a "teacher" or much theory you just learn by listening to it and doing it. Of course without a teacher you wouldn't be able to get much beyond root/5th but that's not usually an issue in traditional bluegrass.

So it strikes me that, this must be what happens to the bass guitar guys who insist that you don't need to know any theory - when they feel they are too old for rock/punk/speed metal or whatever, they turn to Bluegrass?

I seriously doubt that there is much crossover between those genres. Rock/punk/speed metal folks would think bluegrass a very uncool hillbilly music although they might grant that the guitar players "can play really fast." As in the case of a lot of folk musicians you are usually born into it. And there's no way you would bring a BG to play bluegrass - you'd be booed off the stage.

Originally posted by rablack

And there's no way you would bring a BG to play bluegrass - you'd be booed off the stage.

Victor Wooten/Bela Fleck?

OK, granted that's just barely bluegrass... (and some, no doubt would say, not at all)

-dh

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield
- when they feel they are too old for rock/punk/speed metal or whatever, they turn to Bluegrass?

I resemble that remark except I wouldn't know where to begin playing jazz or bluegrass. I'm resigned to just playing boring old classical stuff and working on bowing and scales. Also, I'm very happy that Beethoven didn't know about bluegrass. Could you imagine what he'd do with that.

BTW I'm driving to Indy this weekend (10 hours one way). I would like a CD recommendation for my first Bluegrass CD. As for Jazz, I recently bought Mingus plays Mingus and found it interesting. Any other suggestions for the uneducated ear?

Mark

There are always exceptions. My comments were primarily relating to traditional bluegrass. Bela Fleck plays the banjo but it's not really bluegrass (although he is quite capable in that genre). I like his stuff, I like traditional bluegrass (in small doses), and I like straight ahead jazz. What I was trying to evoke for our friend Bruce was a sense of the bluegrass culture which has a tendency to be rather orthodox.

I'd love to see a speed metal/punk bassist headbanging to "Will the Circle Be Unbroken" during the Sunday morning concert at a traditional bluegrass festival.;)

Bruce, I think that the simplicity of Bluegrass is a definite attraction to the new upright bassist, but not the only one. As others have stated here thousands of times, it's a difficult instrument to learn, and bluegrass and roots country is a way that a new player can get out there and get some gigging experience (the best kind, IMO) fairly quickly.

Yeah, it's "only" pounding out root-fives in I-IV-V progressions most of the time, but remember that there's no drummer in bluegrass, so the importance of time becomes even more pronounced. It's all on you, as the bassist, to drive the band (or hold them back). You become kind of bassist and percussionist in one, trying to reign in 3 or 4 soloists who are waiting to blaze away. It can get interesting at times.

I'm enjoying BG, but I'm also looking forward to getting the knowledge under my belt to play jazz standards, too.

Originally posted by oldsaw


BTW I'm driving to Indy this weekend (10 hours one way). I would like a CD recommendation for my first Bluegrass CD. As for Jazz, I recently bought Mingus plays Mingus and found it interesting. Any other suggestions for the uneducated ear?

Mark
Oldsaw - If you want to start with newer stuff try
Nickel Creek by Nickel Creek
I've Got That Old Feeling by Allison Krause (Edgar Meyer plays on this one)
albums by New Grass Revival

If you want to start at the beginning get anything by Bill Monroe who invented the genre or by Flatt & Scruggs or Ralph Stanley. The list could go on and on.

Be warned - traditional bluegrass singing can set your teeth on edge. Part of the tradition seems to be setting the songs in keys just out of comfortable singing reach so you get a strained nasal tenor twang.

Well the only American music I've heard with banjo (my Jazz tutor cringes at the very mention of the word banjo!) has been some Neil Young tracks and Gram Parsons albums. I also saw Emmylou Harris live twice and while I think there was some banjo, I was more interested in things like James Burton's or Albert Lee's guitar playing - I liked "Ooh Las Vegas" which is all I can think of from the descriptions of the music you mention. :confused:

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield
[B(my Jazz tutor cringes at the very mention of the word banjo!) [/B]

Q: What's the least used phrase in the English language?

A: Is that the banjo player's Mercedes-Benz?

True story; I grew up with a dad who can play anything with strings in a bluegrass context. One day a friend was over to rehearse a viola piece for contest (I was his accompanist on piano). We were taking a break when my dad came home, saw the viola on the couch, picked it up nd started wailing away. He asked my friend "What do you call this oversized fiddle?" My incredulous friend asked how he could play so well without even knowing what the instrument was. Dad replied "Well it's tuned the same as a tenor banjo. I wasn't sure whether to be proud or embarrassed. :-)

Monte

When I told my teacher back in 6th grade that I wanted to switch from violin to bass, I was given a bass and a bow, and told, in effect, "Here it is, now play." It was really hard to figure out how to do anything, but after a few minutes, I could pluck a D string really well. :)

After a while, my section leader and teacher helped me a lot. But they never corrected my bow hold, which would probably be better now if someone had sat down with me back then and said, "This is how you hold a bow. See?"

Most of you guys are missing the point...

Just because you play , or like ,bluegrass it does not mean...
1.You can not be a talented musician
2.That you can not sing anything else
3. That you must be either ,a hillbilly ,or redneck
4.That the bass is confined to root/5 patterns
5. That you have nothing better to do on saturday nites.

Many talented folks enjoy and play bluegrass and the main attractionis FUN...FUN...FUN.
Does any one here just play for the hell of it?

Does any one here just play for the hell of it?

I actually have a better reason. Most weekends, I have a choice: I can book gigs playing 4 or 5 sets in a (LOUD) rock bar-band in a smoky-ass club, schlep a ton of gear, and make $50.

Or, I can show up with my upright and play bluegrass, folk, or "period music" at a local restaurant, museum, or private party...3 sets max, clean environment, dinner included, and make $150 minimum. Home before midnight.

After years of dealing with drunk sh**heads, developing a bad back, and a bad attitude. I choose the latter! Sure, it's simple music but the benefits are there.

Bluegrass can just be a plain old great time! I played with a group in the 80's for quite a while, never that great but we did our share of fun gigs and even more fun beer-soaked rehearsals.

I never expected the stuff to be challenging, but it sure can be. After all, you are talking about music often written/developed by untrained players who don't play by "the rules" and the changes can be both illogical (to somebody used to faking "conventional" tunes for many years) and occur in the most unexpected places. Pretty easy to get caught! And you very often have to hire a guy to come and sweep up the pile of dropped beats after a performance. <g>

But it's great fun, I enjoyed playing and singing with the group, and you will not meet a more friendly group of players.

the first 3 months i played upright i didn't have any lessons, i learned intonation on my own, bowing technique (i read a lot of info on upright technique), proper hand placement, bow exercises, vibrato, and i taught myself how to read bass clef in one weekend where i studied the clef for about 7 hours total. It is surprising how much a mind can learn without an instructor with just practicing and studying. Intonation was actually pretty easy because when i hear myself playing something out of tune, it bugs me a lot; it makes me cringe.

Anyways.... I was really interested in getting into avante=gard type stuff, I'm thinking about getting an EUB when I save up the money. I started this thread to get an idea of what the teachers actually show you. I guess they mainly work on posture/mechanics and theory, true?

Originally posted by ThePaste
I started this thread to get an idea of what the teachers actually show you. I guess they mainly work on posture/mechanics and theory, true?

No, they also teach you how to play *music*, how to go beyond the notes; or if you're improvising, how to speak the language, ie. make sense, and to play more than bullsh*t.

I can always find cool postures by checking out the occassional uprite player on MTV. But those guys always have real cool hats. Where can I find those?

Originally posted by Don Higdon
I can always find cool postures by checking out the occassional uprite player on MTV. But those guys always have real cool hats. Where can I find those?



www.hatsfoyobootyvideo.com

Originally posted by ThePaste
Anyways.... I was really interested in getting into avante=gard type stuff, I'm thinking about getting an EUB when I save up the money. I started this thread to get an idea of what the teachers actually show you. I guess they mainly work on posture/mechanics and theory, true?

A good teacher will focus on what you need the most work on. It might be posture/mechanics, it might be theory, it might be musicality, it all depends. I think that a lot of people will assume that it tends to focus on technique largely because once they've got the fundamentals of their technique down, they will stop going to lessons, not realizing that this business of learning to play music, is a never-ending endeavour.

-dh

Originally posted by Don Higdon
I can always find cool postures by checking out the occassional uprite player on MTV. But those guys always have real cool hats. Where can I find those?

Haha, no I really meant correct postures for being able to play better. Silly man :D

If that's truly the case, dhosek says it all, immediately above your post, as does Special K at the end of line 3.

Originally posted by PortraitofTracy
the first 3 months i played upright i didn't have any lessons, i learned intonation on my own, bowing technique (i read a lot of info on upright technique), proper hand placement, bow exercises, vibrato, and i taught myself how to read bass clef in one weekend where i studied the clef for about 7 hours total. It is surprising how much a mind can learn without an instructor with just practicing and studying. Intonation was actually pretty easy because when i hear myself playing something out of tune, it bugs me a lot; it makes me cringe.

I have to wonder, though how accurate your self-assessment is.

I used to think I was a pretty damn good piano player and improviser. Then I went for a vocal audition & I couldn't find the piano accompaniment for my audition piece (a relatively obscure turn of the century piece by Massenet). I figured I'd just sing it a capella. The audition pianist, from a vocal lead sheet only, managed to improvise a fully harmonized accompaniment while sight reading.

And this was the guy who was #3 on the totem pole at the Cathedral music office.

There's always something to be learned. Sometimes "something" is humility.

-dh

In high school, neither of the music teachers really knew anything about bass. They just gave me a bass, a book, and said good luck. I became passable at DB, enough to play in the orchestra and jazz band and not embarass anyone.

This all relied on not playing anything above the seventh position though. :)

If I ever settle down enough to own a house, I'll get back into it. For now, I'm all electrified.
With this post, I become a talk bass member, so that's some sort of progress anyway.

How about Scott LaFaro, who had no formal instruction, played gut strings, and had only a six-year career? Maybe because he PRACTICED twelve hours a day....

Bump.