i'm listening to kinda blue right now, and PC is out of tune all over the place. i know i should be saying "so what" ;) since the music is excellent, really beautiful, and the foibles that i hear don't interfere with my enjoyment of the music. still, though, out is out, and it makes me wonder...

the only reason that i bring it up is that i've heard DB'ers who _idolize_ PC, and i wonder if i'm missing something. i don't mean to be milking any sacred cows here, just something i noticed and got me to wondering.

remember i'm just a toy bassist :D so i probably just don't get it. anybody who could help me out, i'd appreciate it. besides, i'd like to get y'all's opinion on importance of intonation.

JT
I took some grief on another thread for comments on PC's intonation; I don't find it quite as egregious as you, though. But his time !!!!! Funky.

I've never noticed big intonation problems. To hear PC, buy _Whims of Chambers_ and give a couple listens to "The Tale of the Fingers".

Originally posted by David Kaczorowski
I've never noticed big intonation problems. To hear PC, buy _Whims of Chambers_ and give a couple listens to "The Tale of the Fingers".

ok, i'll do that. i'd like to hear more of him, since he's recognized by so many as such a giant. i feel i need to get more influenced by more DB players anyway - so much of BG is cross-pollenated and inbred, influence-wise, a lot of even the better BG players are beginning to sound like some extended backwoods bumpkin family, if you catch my meaning - beginning to have all the same traits to various exaggerated degrees.

i hear it mainly on "so what" some, during the "buh-dup buh-dup buh-dup buh-daaa...bum bum" part. also, during the beginning of freddie freeloader, but now that ed mentions it, it might be the horns - he sounds in with the piano. then again, he sounds out on blue in green some of the beginning with the piano.

also, as much as i listen to kinda blue, ah uhm and a love supreme, among others, i still am not really experienced listening to this kind of ensemble playing. i think i have to learn more about how to listen to this kind of stuff. :D maybe what sounds "out" to me is really just the nature of the instrument.

Originally posted by john turner
i'm listening to kinda blue right now, and PC is out of tune all over the place. i know i should be saying "so what" ;) since the music is excellent, really beautiful, and the foibles that i hear don't interfere with my enjoyment of the music. still, though, out is out, and it makes me wonder...


Although it's not "PC" to say it, I hear intonation glitches all over that record...especially on "So What", where he goes to the Eb minor part of the head. He plays the third of that minor scale so sharp that it sounds almost like major. I hear him playing sharp a lot on a goodly portion of the record. But like others have said, it doesn't diminish my enjoyment of either the record or his playing. I guess to me, both are kind of "period pieces" which are perfect in their own way in their own time. Ask any classically trained trumpet player about Miles' technique sometime...my suggestion if you do that is to make yourself veeerrrry comfortable first and bring a lunch and maybe some coffee.


remember i'm just a toy bassist :D so i probably just don't get it. anybody who could help me out, i'd appreciate it. besides, i'd like to get y'all's opinion on importance of intonation.


Coming from a background of piano and fretless toybass before coming over to the dark side, my opinion is that intonation is hands down the hardest aspect of DB. Period. End of story. I go to DB recitals and master classes whenever possible, and I always hear funky intonation from students (including myself, of course) and often hear it from teachers when they aren't careful. This is one reason I try to record my practice sessions every other time I practice. If I don't, I get so caught up in some other aspect of the music that I don't always hear the micro (if i'm lucky) tuning mistakes I'm making. Improvement of this aspect of my playing is one of my main goals for the forseeable future and probably for the rest of my life.

Originally posted by john turner
also, as much as i listen to kinda blue, ah uhm and a love supreme, among others, i still am not really experienced listening to this kind of ensemble playing. i think i have to learn more about how to listen to this kind of stuff. :D maybe what sounds "out" to me is really just the nature of the instrument.

In jazz, the horns can be out, the bass can be out, even chord voicings can give the impression of being out. And I think your right in way about jazz kinda sounding out to cats that are just getting into it after listenning to rock and stuff.

Toss that Ah Um disk. I think it's one of Ming's worst. To me it's very restrained sounding, like they're playing a wedding gig or someting. I never understood why so many people recomment it. A great place to start for Mingus, especially for guys coming from a rock kinda background is _Live at Antibes_. You won't be the same after that. Buy that CD and let me know what you think. I might be able to point you in some directions. And you might want to pick up _The Black Saint and the Sinner Lady_ while your in the Mingus bin.

Yeah that darn beginning of So What, I think we had a whole thread about that at one point. It's no walk in the park to play it in tune for some reason...I thought I could play it fine, but I taped myself and...oh man. I am not comparing myself to PC, but I would say the nature of the line, and the fact that it's an in front type of line, makes intonation flaws stand out even more...

PC's line on "So What" is interesting, particularly on the bridge, when he actually is playing a Db7 sound instead of the acknowledged Eb-7 chord during the solos. The B naturals could add to any perceived intonation issues.



I think it's actually pretty cool, where the whole band goes up a half step to the bridge, PC goes down. The fact that this has gone unnoticed by so many is testament to his time and sound.

I've listened to this album for years and often tried to play along on the piano when I was younger, but never could play in the right key, then I recently bought it on new remastered CD and it is in tune now. I think the first pressings of it are slightly sharp. Check out the latest releases. Still, if your saying they all sound out of tune to each other, I can't hear it, or maybe the slightly sharp versions are confusing your delicate ear. But, still, I've never noticed he goes down instead of up - i'll be checking that out tonight - wheww, how many bass players have got that wrong over the years.

Originally posted by David Kaczorowski


Toss that Ah Um disk. I think it's one of Ming's worst. To me it's very restrained sounding, like they're playing a wedding gig or someting. I never understood why so many people recomment it. A great place to start for Mingus, especially for guys coming from a rock kinda background is _Live at Antibes_. You won't be the same after that. Buy that CD and let me know what you think. I might be able to point you in some directions. And you might want to pick up _The Black Saint and the Sinner Lady_ while your in the Mingus bin.

thanks for the suggestions, david http://www.talkbass.com/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif

i've heard about "the black saint..." , i need to go shopping.

Oh, completely and absolutely don't throw away 'Ah Um', starting with a witty Pun for the title, 'Wednesday Prayer Meeting' - ohmigod 'Goodbye Pork Pie' . . is incredible, you're musically dead if that doesn't move you, 'Fables . . . ' just listen to the head! The whole entire album is beautiful, funky, groovy, cheerful, melancholy in turns. It takes a little effort, but once it clicks . . . . sheer music!

Originally posted by APouncer
Oh, completely and absolutely don't throw away 'Ah Um', starting with a witty Pun for the title, 'Wednesday Prayer Meeting' - ohmigod 'Goodbye Pork Pie' . . is incredible, you're musically dead if that doesn't move you, 'Fables . . . ' just listen to the head! The whole entire album is beautiful, funky, groovy, cheerful, melancholy in turns. It takes a little effort, but once it clicks . . . . sheer music!

Wrong, it doesn't take any effort. I much prefer the Fables of Faubus version on _Charles Mingus Presents Charles Mingus_, and love the live version on _Revenge_. I forgot "Wednesday Night Prayer Meeting" is even on _Ah Um_. The best version is on _Live at Antibes_, and the _Blues and Roots_ version is ain't shabby. And "Goodbye Pork Pie Hat" is 100x's better on _Mingus x 5_.

I guess I'm just musically dead. I have probably more than a dozen Mingus discs and this is the only one that sucks. When was that recorded, '57, '58, maybe? Let's see from that same time frame is Tiajuana Moods, Blues and Roots, The Clown, East Coasting, Symposium on Jazz..., Jazz Composer's Workshop, and probably other's, and I like 'em all better. On second thought, maybe I'm not the one who's musically dead. Maybe the peabrains that think Ming's only musically dead album is his best are the musically dead ones.

Ok, maybe "musically dead" is a little extravagant. To quantify my opinions: if i'm right in thinking that that version of Fables is the faster one, right? I do prefer it! And I have heard many versions of Wednesday . . . maybe some are slightly better, I'm not sure i've heard a better playing (and recording) of Goodbye . . . though, I just love the solo. But what I like is the package, the choice of songs, the order they are in, the title, the packaging, the cracking recording quality, and it all adds up to (for me) a lovely album to be listened to from start to finish.

Originally posted by APouncer
Ok, maybe "musically dead" is a little extravagant. To quantify my opinions: if i'm right in thinking that that version of Fables is the faster one, right? I do prefer it! And I have heard many versions of Wednesday . . . maybe some are slightly better, I'm not sure i've heard a better playing (and recording) of Goodbye . . . though, I just love the solo. But what I like is the package, the choice of songs, the order they are in, the title, the packaging, the cracking recording quality, and it all adds up to (for me) a lovely album to be listened to from start to finish.

So basically what you're saying is you like the album, it provides you with an enjoyable listening experience. I'm glad you enjoy it. Though despite many considering it definitive Mingus (which is why it was mentioned here in the 1st place), imo, it's the disc that least represents what Mingus and his bands usually sounded like. In fact, it's well documented that Mingus himself hated it. I think the feel and the overall playing is much stiffer and restrained than one would find on most other Mingus discs.

"Pork Pie..." is listed as "Theme for Lester Young" on _Mingus Mingus Mingus Mingus Mingus_
Check it out. That album also has versions of "Haitian Fight Song" and "E's Flat, Ah's Flat Too" listed as "II B.S." and "Hora Debucutis" respectively. I can't say which of those I like better as the two versions of each are very different.

I missed this thread somehow; but reading it now, it strikes me that there is another thing about listening to Jazz that hasn't been stated explicitly, although has been touched on. Which is that Jazz is essentially a live music and until you have actually been in the audience of a small sweaty club and heard it live and "in your face" that it doesn't make so much sense.

So the studio albums, with short solos and restrained arrangements are a world away from what you would hear at any Jazz club. In this environment, small intonation differences are way down the list of priorities and it's about ideas, taking risks and really gripping an audience, with the swing, the sound and "flying by the seat of your pants"!

Jazz can be a really exciting music live and if you're only listening to things like "Kind of Blue" and "Ah Um" you would get no impression of this. I think that even with "live" albums, you are getting no concept of the feeling involved and the rapport with the audience, who may well appreciate that mistakes will be made and don't care - so while it's "in the moment" it sounds great, but doesn't bear repeated listening "under the microscope".

So I have no doubt that PC was a really happening bass player live and can imagine that was what he was hired for - not an ability to play high register stuff with unfailing accuracy.

Originally posted by Robert Sabin
PC's line on "So What" is interesting, particularly on the bridge, when he actually is playing a Db7 sound instead of the acknowledged Eb-7 chord during the solos. The B naturals could add to any perceived intonation issues.
Yeah, and actually I'm Christian McBride.
PC, like the rest of the band, is playing a dorian Eb scale. Bb and C natural. Unless, of course, you can direct us to the bar(s) and, for that matter, the specific beat(s) on which he spells a Db7 chord or even plays one Cb against the Eb dorian, i.e. Db major, scale.
I think it's actually pretty cool, where the whole band goes up a half step to the bridge, PC goes down. The fact that this has gone unnoticed by so many is testament to his time and sound.
It hasn't gone unnoticed; it didn't happen.

Originally posted by Don Higdon

Yeah, and actually I'm Christian McBride.



And to think I thought you were a white guy from New Jersey all this time...you had me fooled. Anyway, nice to meet you. I loved your playing on Joe Henderson's "Lush Life". The duet you and Joe played on "Isfahan" is absolutely gorgeous. Keep up the good work!

Originally posted by Don Higdon

Yeah, and actually I'm Christian McBride.
PC, like the rest of the band, is playing a dorian Eb scale. Bb and C natural. Unless, of course, you can direct us to the bar(s) and, for that matter, the specific beat(s) on which he spells a Db7 chord or even plays one Cb against the Eb dorian, i.e. Db major, scale.

quote:
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I think it's actually pretty cool, where the whole band goes up a half step to the bridge, PC goes down. The fact that this has gone unnoticed by so many is testament to his time and sound.
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It hasn't gone unnoticed; it didn't happen.

Well, this is an interesting discussion and it's difficult to pin down what's happening, as of course there are a huge number of chromatic passing notes which are not in any scale or mode - but it's a question of the "sound". There are B naturals - but to me they are just chromatic passing notes. So in the 2nd chorus of Miles' solo, where he is coming back to the Dm7 after the "bridge" there is C, followed by B natural but as a passing note to the following Bb.

So this very line was studied in a class I attended at the University of Glamorgan Jazz summerschool. So a couple of bass players were taking the class and Dudley Phillips handed out a transcription of the walking line under Miles' solo (first up of course).

In this transcription (which I still have and is why I am mentioning this - I don't trust my own ears ;)) for the very first chorus, there is a descending line down to the first chord change (bridge?). So the preceding bar of Dm7 is A,G,F,E and then goes down to Eb for the first quarter note of the Ebm7 chord, then a C, followed by a Bb where the line starts to move upward again.

Is this what Robert Sabin means?

One of PC's signature cliches is chromatic half steps 1-2-4-2-1, with 1 and 4 on consonant notes, 2 being a passing tone. 1 and 4 fingerings will be on beats 1 and 3, the passing tone on the off beat. The existence of a Cb in passing does not in itself render the chord a Db7. Where is it? When? What about all the Gb's? Are you telling me that PC just loved 4-3 suspensions unresolved? And I disagree with the notion that there are a huge number of chromatic passing notes.
In any event, you said it perfectly: "...it's a question of the 'sound.' "

Originally posted by Don Higdon
And I disagree with the notion that there are a huge number of chromatic passing notes.
In any event, you said it perfectly: "...it's a question of the 'sound.' "

Well, I wasn't disagreeing with you - just trying to point out possibilities for things that might have "confused" Robert.

As to the number of chromatic passing notes - we seem to be agreeing that it's about one or occasionally two per bar - well in the whole piece, there are quite a few bars and hence a large number of passing tones.

I think it's a common misunderstanding for people who are new to Jazz, to assume that the bassists are just inserting a lot of random chromatic notes and in this piece PC does seem to go for some very long lines which seem to just go up or down chromatically for ages - but to me it still "sounds" in the appropriate Dorian mode - how he manages to do this is one of the reasons for me, why he was a great Jazz bass player!

What I was really pointing to, was that in the very first "blowing" chorus, he walks down to the Eb which might be what Robert was referring to - but I'm with you that it always "sounds" right and I would love to be able to construct walking lines that are as "satisfying"as this.

For anyone who disputes what I'm saying, first of all transcribe the line for yourself. If you need help Don, e-mail me.



Secondly, Check out what PC plays behind Miles' solo on the bridge. On the third beat he leaves a rest. This adds to the uncertain nature of this section. on the 5th bar of this section he clearly plays Db-F-Gb-G-Ab, and then B natural and C as 8th notes leading to the Db again. He uses the B natural immediately after the Db also.



In the second bridge of Miles' solo, PC repeats this Db figure twice, at the beginning of the section, and on the fifth bar.



We can say he's playing chromatically, or using a substitution, or that he's using different notes of the same scale or whatever. Hell, maybe Miles explained the tune to him wrong. I don't pretend to know what he was thinking, but it sounds cool, and there's a lot to be learned. Saying "Db7" is my way of thinking of these sounds. Yours may not be the same.

Originally posted by Robert Sabin
For anyone who disputes what I'm saying, first of all transcribe the line for yourself. If you need help Don, e-mail me.

Secondly, Check out what PC plays behind Miles' solo on the bridge. On the third beat he leaves a rest. This adds to the uncertain nature of this section. on the 5th bar of this section he clearly plays Db-F-Gb-G-Ab, and then B natural and C as 8th notes leading to the Db again. He uses the B natural immediately after the Db also.


Well, I have a transcription in front of me, by a Jazz teacher who I greatly respect and as I say the whole class went through this with him at Jazz Summerschool.

So, I can find the "Db-F-Gb-G-Ab" part mentioned, but then I've got C-Db-D-Eb-F - no B natural notated. I've got Bbs notated all the way on the lines coming down - no B Natural.

I went back and checked my transcription with the record, and while I was wrong about the rest in the first bar of the first solo bridge(oops), bar 4 of that section sounds to me like F-B-Ab-B leading to the Db on the downbeat of the fifth bar. He also plays the same line on the 4th bar of the next bridge. The way he repeats his lines in similar and different places is really hip.



Since this thread started out discussing intonation, maybe you guys hear this differently. I would be interested to know.



Also, there are clear 8th notes on beat 2 of bars 2 and 6 of the first bridge, which could be either B-C-Db, or C-C-Db, it's a bit muddy. I think it's the former, with PC then playing Eb-E on beat 4 of bar 6 leading to the F on the downbeat of measure 7.



There are also B's on beats 4 of bars 2 and 7 of that first bridge that lead to Bb on the following downbeats, functioning as passing tones.

I don't want to start any flame wars here, but the places you mentioned as being in a Db7 tonality sound like simple CLAMS to me, although I must say I never noticed them before, since the prevailing harmony always seemed so obviously an Eb minor tonality ( and since, up until recently, I was always listening with a definite ear toward the trumpet and piano player). Whatever they are, I sure don't hear any shift in tonality.

One interesting thing I DO hear, since we're on the subject, is PC's use of the b6 in the Dminor sections of Miles' solo, he plays the descending line D-Db-C-Bb-A-G-F-E in bars 3-4 of the first 8, and then again in bars 1-2 of the second 8, and then again in bars 7-8 of the same section, and then yet again in the last 8 of the first chorus. Miles plays only B naturals during this same section.

Well, the tune IS called "So What" after all, right?

Originally posted by Chris Fitzgerald
One interesting thing I DO hear, since we're on the subject, is PC's use of the b6 in the Dminor sections of Miles' solo, he plays the descending line D-Db-C-Bb-A-G-F-E in bars 3-4 of the first 8, and then again in bars 1-2 of the second 8, and then again in bars 7-8 of the same section, and then yet again in the last 8 of the first chorus. Miles plays only B naturals during this same section.

I would just consider the Bb a chromatic passing tone to the A, same function as the Db. Although it suggests D minor, as opposed to D dorian, I'm sure if I go listen to it, it won't sound that way.

Originally posted by David Kaczorowski


I would just consider the Bb a chromatic passing tone to the A, same function as the Db.
Especially since the Db and Bb occur on the weak beats, and the consonant notes on the strong beats, which is one of the points I tried to make before. By the way, using the logic that started this, does the presence of Bb's mean that Miles is playing a C7th rather than Dm?

I'm getting to hate this tune almost as much as My Favorite Things. I'm using some Getz concert recordings of Voyager with Kenny Barron as an antidote. As someone recently wrote, modes are a flavor, not an entire quisine.

Thanks, but I won't be using your transcription help. You and I hear differently, Robert.
Bridge, bar 2, you say B-C-Db or C-C-Db, I hear C-Db-Eb. It's in unison with what Miles plays: C-Db-Eb-C-Bb (Bb starts bar 3). On the downbeat of 7, you say F, I hear Gb. You say B's on beat 4 of 2 and 7, I hear C's. I tried your F-B-Ab-B against bar 4. The recording is not clear, but I couldn't hear those notes. I've tried sounding a Db 7 on the piano, and spelling Db 7 on the bass. It doesn't work for my ears. I sort of hear the rising line from Db to Ab, but no Cb afterward.
I don't contest the existence of passing tones out of the dorian scales, especially since Miles apparently sprung this on the band the day of the recording. But in placement or number, they don't change the tonality I hear.

Originally posted by David Kaczorowski


I would just consider the Bb a chromatic passing tone to the A, same function as the Db. Although it suggests D minor, as opposed to D dorian, I'm sure if I go listen to it, it won't sound that way.

I don't think there's anything wrong with the Bb's in that line, they just strike me as approach tones to the A, even though they can't be technically called "chromatic passing tones". I supposed if anyone wanted to put on the "Theory Nazi" nerd glasses and pocket protector, they could explain them away as "Chromatic Neighbor" tones. Personally, I don't wear glasses, and I prefer to keep my writing utensils in my briefcase.

I have long considered the concept of "Jazz Minor" scales in actual usage to consist of the scale tones 1-2-3-4-5-(b6-6-b7-7)-8, with the ones in parentheses being a matter of personal choice, voice-leading, and what sounds good to a player's ear AT THAT MOMENT. I play them this way and no one has ever complained. I teach them this way, since it seems easier to comprehend one scale with a couple of choices based on what sounds right than it does to juggle five different minor scale choices (dorian, aeolin, melodic asc., melodic desc., and harmonic) every time you see one.

I love PC's playing, warts and all. And it still sounds to me like he's trying to play "catch up" at times on the bridge sections of Miles' solo. Did I mention I love PC's playing, warts and all? I do.

Originally posted by Chris Fitzgerald
I don't think there's anything wrong with the Bb's in that line, they just strike me as approach tones to the A, even though they can't be technically called "chromatic passing tones". I supposed if anyone wanted to put on the "Theory Nazi" nerd glasses and pocket protector, they could explain them away as "Chromatic Neighbor" tones. Personally, I don't wear glasses, and I prefer to keep my writing utensils in my briefcase.

Chris, isn't that what I wrote? Like I said, the Bb theoretically belongs to D minor, but in this context it won't sound that way, it sounds like a chromatic whatever-you-want-to-call-it. If you don't like "chromatic passing tone", perhaps "chromatic approach note" is better. Whatever it is, I think of it this way: In Classical tradition, any note within a key can be approached from a whole-step below, a half-step below, or a whole-step above; in jazz his has been extended to include a half-step above too. The Db in the example is functioning the same way, and as Don pointed out, both the Db and Bb sound especially good because they fall on weak beats, 2 and 4 respectively.

Here's a little problem I have with my ear: the half-step above approach note is something I use, as do probably every other bassist. However, sometimes (for example the A section of rythm changes, or the ii-V's on the first and second endings of Ornithology) if I'm approaching the root of the next chord from a half-step above, my ear tends to hear it as 7->3 in V7->I.

Well I think many people have said that Jazz improvisation is like a conversation between people and I think that we all know when we are speaking the same language, even if somebody doesn't enunciate exactly all the time or even takes liberties with that language like Ed ;)

So, it seems that Miles and PC were having a pretty good conversation and had no doubts about what they were talking about.

I've recently been reading the Ashley Kahm book on the making of "Kind of Blue" and in this Jimmy Cobb is quoted as saying "we had played 'So What' once or twice on gigs" and Miles himself mentioned how Bill Evans and himself had been working on the tunes for several months. Also the take on the final recording is the 4th - the three previous having noises or "sloppy" playing from Evans! So this wasn't exactly the first time they had played it and Miles hadn't just sprung it on them with little notice. But he did throw in instructions at the last minute - so there is a quote from Bill Evans :

Miles ran over the charts a couple of time. You know "do this", "do that" and then he laid out a structure, like "you solo first". Sometimes during a take we didn;t even know that. He would walk around behind you and say "Take two choruses or "You play next"


But anyway - I think the point is that Miles and the producers were completely satisfied with the takes they released and the vast majority of listeners will never notice the minutiae that has been discussed here - just the "cool" sound and great feel.

I plan on getting that book. Imagine writing a book about one recording session. As for how much pre-exposure the band had, Bill Evans' notes on the original LP (which I have :) ) said "Miles conceived these settings only hours before the recording dates...The group had never played these pieces prior to the recordings..."
Now Bill was there, and the author wasn't. On the other hand, there's a moment in the Miles solo that Robert brought up where Miles and PC play a phrase in unison, twice. What are the chances of that happening spontaneously? Could it be that PC heard it from Miles during a trial run?

Well the quote about playing So What at gigs was from Jimmy Cobb who was there and is the only one present at the sessions who is still alive.

Kahn mentions in the book how Bill Evans admitted later in his autobiography that he and Miles had worked on the tunes previous to the session when he was trying to claim "author" rights to "Blue in Green".

Apart from the things I mentioned previously, Kahn quotes from an interview with Miles given to Ralph Gleason, where he explained how he had All Blues for six months and then decided on the morning of the session that it should be in 3/4 not 4/4.

So maybe when writing the liner notes Bill Evans was trying to get across the spontaneous nature of the music and that the vast majority of it was unwritten in terms of arrangements etc.

So taking So What as an example the "head" is very short and is gone in a moment, while Miles' trumpet solo is over 2 minutes long and in most of the songs, the solos make up the vast bulk of the material - which probably hadn't been the case in many previous recordings, before.

Kahn also mentions how Bill Evans hadn't played with Miles' band for the 3 months before the KoB sessions - so he wouldn't have known what they were working on anyway and maybe Miles liked people to think it had all been made up "on the spot" - it would certainly be "in acharacter" from the documentaries I've seen?

What are you saying????!!!!! That Miles would embroider the truth for the sake of image? Bite your tongue!!!

Originally posted by David Kaczorowski


Chris, isn't that what I wrote? Like I said, the Bb theoretically belongs to D minor, but in this context it won't sound that way, it sounds like a chromatic whatever-you-want-to-call-it. If you don't like "chromatic passing tone", perhaps "chromatic approach note" is better.

Yes, it is what you wrote, and I agree with it - I was just trying to "Nazi-Proof" the phraseology, in case any of the Theory Gestapo were hanging around. Sorry, that's a bad habit I picked up in Grad school, where I was surrounded by THEORY GEEK HEADS who were always trying to find the chinks in the armor of any and all jazzers in the area - I think they secretly felt intimidated by the jazzers because they could only talk and write papers about their DEEP THEORY SH*T, while the jazzers could PLAY theirs. Anyway, no disrespect intended.

Here's a little problem I have with my ear: the half-step above approach note is something I use, as do probably every other bassist. However, sometimes (for example the A section of rythm changes, or the ii-V's on the first and second endings of Ornithology) if I'm approaching the root of the next chord from a half-step above, my ear tends to hear it as 7->3 in V7->I.

I think I know what you mean, but I'm not absolutely positive....can you elaborate? Either way, I don't know if I'd call it a problem, but maybe I don't understand what you meant.

Originally posted by Chris Fitzgerald
I think I know what you mean, but I'm not absolutely positive....can you elaborate? Either way, I don't know if I'd call it a problem, but maybe I don't understand what you meant.

Let's take rythm changes, bars 1 & 2, |Bb-Gm|Cm7-F7|, I might play Bb-Ab-G-B|C-F#-F-Cb|Bb etc. Sometimes, to my ear, Ab->G kinda sounds like the Ab of a Bb7 resolving down a half step to G, the third of Ebmaj7. Dig? Or similarly with whatever the respective chords would be for Gb(F#)->F, the seventh of Ab7 resolving to the third of Dbmaj7. Cb->Bb, seventh and third of Db7->Gbmaj7.
Maybe that's why it's a hip sound; or like I said, I have a problem with my ear.

I don't think you have a problem exactly, when you consider the amount of people who have trouble hearing the 7-3 resolution to start with. Hearing 7-3 in some way means your hearing roots too, just different ones. I think its a sign your ear is alive and well, so well that it can superimpose things that may or may not be taking place in the music. Try playing some of these same lines on the piano with different changes, and you might be able to further develop this skill.

Originally posted by David Kaczorowski
Here's a little problem I have with my ear: the half-step above approach note is something I use, as do probably every other bassist. However, sometimes (for example the A section of rythm changes, or the ii-V's on the first and second endings of Ornithology) if I'm approaching the root of the next chord from a half-step above, my ear tends to hear it as 7->3 in V7->I.
Not a problem. You just hit on one of the joys of playing harmony in a single-note, horizontal line: the ability to create ambiguity. Lennie Tristano, one of my heros, was a master of ambiguity, by different means, of course. I want an audience that hear the same way; it adds a pleasurable edge to suggest you're going in one direction and then not go there, or to just leave everybody hanging. If you're working with horns and no piano or guitar, you can have a ball with this. I'm playing tonight in a 4tet of tnr, tpt, dr, and bass, and the horn guys have really big ears.

David,

What DONOSAUR said. I do the same thing, and sometimes I'll just go with it if the guys I'm playing with have the ears for it. One guy I play with always either catches exactly what I'm doing at times like this, or starts slipping off in his own direction, which is also hip because when this happens, it becomes all about tension/release; and he's really good about making sure we're hearing the release at the same time.

When this works, it is - to coin a somewhat outdated but curiously apt phrase - DA BOMB.

Originally posted by Ed Fuqua
No pandering, no simplifications, just communication and listening...

...as if it were the simplest thing on Earth! :D

FYI:

http://www.activemusician.com/store/product.asp?c=B0A425E7607511D5AC1300B0D020E6D7&sku=HL.00672460&nav=rd

The transcribed score of "Kind of Blue".

Originally posted by Phil Smith
FYI:

http://www.activemusician.com/store/product.asp?c=B0A425E7607511D5AC1300B0D020E6D7&sku=HL.00672460&nav=rd

The transcribed score of "Kind of Blue".

If this is the same one that's in the current Jamey Aebersold catalog, the bass transcriptions are incomplete, according to JA's description.

-dh

Originally posted by dhosek


If this is the same one that's in the current Jamey Aebersold catalog, the bass transcriptions are incomplete, according to JA's description.

-dh

Did you check out the link before you posted this? This is published by Hal Leonard.

It's still possible it's the same one. Jamey sells stuff by a bunch of different publishers. I'm playing sessions with him on Thursday mornings lately... if anybody's interested, I'll check on that transcription next week - his office and bookselling operation are in the basement of his house in New Albany. I've been meaning to ask him about a complete cross listing of bass transcriptions anyway.

My mistake :o, it is the same book. I didn't realize that Abersold sold other publications on his site.

Yep. I knew it wasn't an Aebersold pub, and although I did forget to check the catalog when I got home to compare, I felt pretty confident that there wasn't likely to be more than one transcription book out there.

-dh

I hear what appears to me to be an interesting difference between Paul Chambers and Ray Brown's sound. PC has a lighter bouncier sound, while Ray Brown has a richer, more full-bodied, larger and more sustaining sound. I am wondering if one difference could be that I know Ray Brown had a fairly low string height on the bridge. So is it possible that PC employed a slightly higher string height? Or is it another difference, such as Ray plucks with the finger more vertically downwards more parallel to the string towards the bottom of the fingerboard, whereas PC seems to pluck with two fingers in a diagonal hand position higher up on the fingerboard?