i'm new to this site so please forgive me if this post is in the wrong place.

I am currently a senior in high school and i am planiing on a carrer in music. my plan is to major in music education and then get my masters in performance so that way i will have something to fall back on if i don't make it on music alone. i live in the st.louis area and was wandering what are the good music schools around me. i don't mind going away but i would rather not go extremely far away to somwhere like juliard or anything. i play trumpet as well as bass and i guess my dream job would be to play bass in a symphony durring the day and jazz trumpet by night. i don't really know how possible it will be to do that but i want to try. and i know that in order to play in symphonies and make it as a professional you pretty much have to have the wright teachers. which brings me back to my original question. what are the really good music schools in the midwest?

Indiana and Rice Universities (which are in Bloomington, Indiana, and Houston, Texas, respectively). I'm your age, and plan to apply to both of these schools.

Hey, yay for choosing a career in music!
Indiana University is a great school, especially for bass. I believe there are something like 80 bass majors currently?
Also, oberlin is supposed to be good, Cleveland, cincinatti (spelling??), Michigan State and University of Michigan have great music programs. Northwestern I believe has a good one too. USC and UCLA (in Los Angeles) is a great school for bass, and the jazz program is pretty awesome too. Rice is highly, highly competitive, but if you're set on Texas, go for it! Also, I've heard good things about UNT. The east coast has an abundance of great schools too, and New York of course is the place to go for Jazz.
You have a million choices.

If Rice is considered Mid-West then UNT in Denton would be also. Largest legit bass department in the US and arguably the best Jazz program in the country.

I personally would concider Mid-West:
Illinois
Indiana
Northwestern

Go take some lessons with the prof's and see who you relate to best. You'll be living with them for 4 or more years.

Personal suggestion:
Major in music, but minor in Computer Science. You have to eat and buy shoes for the children.

Personal suggestion:
Major in music, but minor in Computer Science. You have to eat and buy shoes for the children.
Heh. There's so many out-of-work computer geeks out here on the left coast that I can't take this suggestion seriously. If you're any good, music will always pay better than computers.

I kind of agree with Paul Cannon on that one BUT having a plan B is definately a good idae in any carreer in which the odds of getting a well paying job are low...Isn't it 12% of all music students who graduate actually get and stay in music after they graduate??
This is a serious issue which everyone and anyone considering a music carreer must address.

Heh. There's so many out-of-work computer geeks out here on the left coast that I can't take this suggestion seriously. If you're any good, music will always pay better than computers.
Incorrect! I am a former freelance bassist. Check my profile. I am now a computer tech and make more money as well as having paid benefits. I have more opinions on this subject but I'm out of time right now.

my plan B is education because i know that it is very hard and very competitive to make it as just a player. that is why i plan on getting my degree in music education and then master in performance. but i would like to give playing for a living a chance but i know that to get a job as a bassist you pretty much have to have the right teachers. i was just wondering where the right teachers were teaching at.

Do you want to teach in elementary or high schools or do you want to teach at the college level?

Many people will get a masters in education so that they can teach at the college level.

EJ_DAD - which schools in illinois and indiana, and where is Northwestern?

my plan B is education because i know that it is very hard and very competitive to make it as just a player. that is why i plan on getting my degree in music education and then master in performance. but i would like to give playing for a living a chance but i know that to get a job as a bassist you pretty much have to have the right teachers. i was just wondering where the right teachers were teaching at.
Good plan. Just make sure that you like to teach K-12 because that's what music education will prepare you for.

EJ_DAD - which schools in illinois and indiana, and where is Northwestern?
He was probably referring to Indiana University and Northwestern, which is in Chicago.

I'm gonna say this until the day I die.

The point is not to pick a school. A lot of good music schools have sub-par bass departments and a lot of OK music schools have excellent bass departments. Two examples...
Eastman-great, great music school. JD VanDermark? never heard one good thing about him.
But
Until last year one could have studied with Tim Cobb at SUNY Purchase.

But back to the issue at hand. Even though Paul Cannon is a moron , Indiana and Rice would be excellent. UNT has Jeff Bradatich, who is an excellent player and teacher. Also Volkon Ouhron (sp?), at Oregon is a great teacher (Reccomened by none other than Gary Karr).

BUUUUT, the best thing to do would be come to juilliard and study with Levinson.

Even though Paul Cannon is a moron...
Bitter, much? I appreciate how you so cleverly worked me into your signature, managing to subtly suggest my own ineptitude while granting the reader a glimpse into your...oh, wait a minute. That's just an insult. And here I thought you were smarter than that...

Also Volkon Ouhron (sp?), at Oregon is a great teacher (Reccomened by none other than Gary Karr).

BUUUUT, the best thing to do would be come to juilliard and study with Levinson.

Volkan Ohron is at the University of Iowa.

Not everyone would do well with Mr Levinson or any one teacher for that matter.

Indiana is the superior program out of this bunch.

Although I think it is smart for you to recognize that performance is very hard to make a living with you will really, really want to have to teach to get your B.M.E. (degree in music edu.) I am attending Illinois Wesleyan University (I am bass performance) and the music education people have to have 36 credits to graduate. If you figure it out, that means you have to take an extra class one semester. In other words, it's a heck of a lot of work, so you better really like teaching.

(Also the state of Illinois is considering raising it to 37 credits)

I personally believe it is easier and perhaps somewhat smarter to minor/major in something else with performance. In the future companies/schools want to have someone who is ultimately commited to education, not someone who just wants a paycheck so he can perform later down the line.

---------------------------------
As far as schools go, it really depends what you are looking for. If you just started playing and need lots of attention then it's much smarter to attened a liberal arts college, get the attention, and then enter a higher level conservatory like the ones being mentioned here. But, if you already have a well established technique and musical theory background, then a conservatory/more competitive school may be the best first choice.

my plan B is education because i know that it is very hard and very competitive to make it as just a player. that is why i plan on getting my degree in music education and then master in performance. but i would like to give playing for a living a chance but i know that to get a job as a bassist you pretty much have to have the right teachers. i was just wondering where the right teachers were teaching at.

Forgot this in my last post, music is not just about that. Connections outside of universities and teachers is the most important thing also.

Bitter, much? I appreciate how you so cleverly worked me into your signature, managing to subtly suggest my own ineptitude while granting the reader a glimpse into your...oh, wait a minute. That's just an insult. And here I thought you were smarter than that...

Well since you where the chosen target of said insult, I though it would be best if I did so in a way that you could comprehend. In other words, short sentences of small words. However, I seem to have underestimated your grasp or the english language. Good job Paul, hook on phonics must really work.

Kidding, you're the man Paul. We should keep in touch, as to summer plans and audition stuff.



As far as picking a school goes, the most important thing is to find the guy that's right for YOU. Take some lessons, all the people we've been discussing are great. If you take a lesson with each of them (or as many as time and travel expenses permit), my money says you'll get a great deal out of every lesson, but you'll find one teacher that fits your style, then all you have to do is get in.

i'm new to this site so please forgive me if this post is in the wrong place.

I am currently a senior in high school and i am planiing on a carrer in music. my plan is to major in music education and then get my masters in performance so that way i will have something to fall back on if i don't make it on music alone. i live in the st.louis area and was wandering what are the good music schools around me. i don't mind going away but i would rather not go extremely far away to somwhere like juliard or anything. i play trumpet as well as bass and i guess my dream job would be to play bass in a symphony durring the day and jazz trumpet by night. i don't really know how possible it will be to do that but i want to try. and i know that in order to play in symphonies and make it as a professional you pretty much have to have the wright teachers. which brings me back to my original question. what are the really good music schools in the midwest?


I didn't see anyone mention DePaul University in Chicago, which has a music faculty of more than 100 and is well regarded. Closer to St. Louis is Eastern Illinois University, with a fine music school. A bit farther afield, though well-regarded for many years is the Morningside College Conservatory, in Iowa, which has produced many respected players for decades, and which is also a good place to obtain a BME.

When you go into an interview and they ask you why you want to go into music education, you probably don't want to tell them that its just so you have something to fall back on. That said, I do know people who have gone into string education after the playing career didn't quite pan out and they are happy. You'd do well to ask one of your music teachers why they went into the Profession. It is hard work.
Another thing to consider is look at schools in a state you are sure you want to live. Not all states accept certification from other states and it can be a hassle to transfer. Also look at a state with lots of school districts that offer string programs. For example, Tennessee doesn't have many. Ohio has many more jobs in strings. Look for a school where the faculty is nationally recognized in their respective fields. Like Gerald Doan at CCM(Cincinnatti) has published a lot of string orchestra stuff. Indiana and Iowa have excellent schools and bass instructors as well. You might want to check out a small state school like Cleveland State. The price might be right and you could study with a member of the Cleveland Orch.
Or yes DePaul (Chicago). I am partial to CCM though, Al Laszlo is a great teacher. Indiana is great also, but big. You might not get to study with Bransby or Hurst as an Ed. major. And one last thought, Taking classes like Ed. Psych takes a lot of time away from practising the bass. If you really want to play the bass practice now while you've got the time. Good Luck.

I believe that Mr. Hurst at Indiana will be retiring in two or three years. He didn't accept any freshmen into his studio this year and is staying around until the last class he accepted has graduated. Or so the grapevine says...
Judging by how IU has been doing in the last two years, though, they'll make sure to hire someone freakishly fantastic to replace him. They're very committed to maintaining what they consider to be the best bass department around (arguable, of course, but the IU bassists have really been doing well professionally in recent years).

I have heard great things about Northwestern University and their music school as a whole....It is also a great school to double major where you could get a major somerwhere else than the shool of music.

also- not in the midwest but you cant beat boston - NEC has really been doing well recently, and the BSO is amazing. Also- there is a joint program with tufts (if you can get into it...) which is fantastic to provide one with a "backup degree" very cool stuff.........i myself am not plunging into the conservatory world....too risky for me, but there are some great programs out there.

EJ_DAD - which schools in illinois and indiana, and where is Northwestern?

University of Illinois - Urbana/Champlian (sp)
University of Indiana - Bloomington
Northwestern - Chicago
Also with DePaul and Northwestern, you might check on the teacher at Roosevelt Univ in Chicago.

One thing to consider when you are applying to these schools, dont set your hopes too high. Make 3 catagorys, one for dream schools, one for schools that you should get into, and one for fallbacks. That way, you will always be sure that you are balancing your schools between realistic options, and kind of a shoot for the stars catagory. IU has one of the best schools in the country, however it is fairly competitive to get into, for that reason.

That being said, Hurst is the best teacher I have ever had. Even if it only was for 8 weeks at Interlochen. Eastern Carolina University is not the best school, however Lenny Finkelshtyn is an AMAZING teacher. He was one of the instructors at the Festival I attended this summer.

Justin brought up a really valid point, except for the fact that JD was a bad teacher, I thought he was really good, but thats just me, that you need to pick the school based upon the teacher there. Is He/She a good match for you? Do they play the right bow style? Is there learning style to harsh? too strong?

All of these are questions you need too ask yourself.

Another thing, have you competed with people at the national level? Have you gone to any summer festivals? If not, I reccomend it.

Good Luck, start preparing for those auditions!!

I believe that Mr. Hurst at Indiana will be retiring in two or three years. He didn't accept any freshmen into his studio this year and is staying around until the last class he accepted has graduated. Or so the grapevine says...

he just accepted a teaching position at University of Michigan, actually. that'd be a cool school to be at, what with him and Geri Allen both teaching. Mark Dresser's at UCSD, another example of a great player/teacher in an under-the-radar music dept.

Kevin Korsyn is at Michigan. If you don't know about him, do a google search. He's not a bassist but he has a photographic memory for music. He's not human!!

I've gotta laugh, but the confusion is understandable--we're talking about different Mr. Hursts. Lawrence Hurst, the classical bass teacher at IU, played in the Dallas Symphony and is an older white dude. Robert Hurst, who just joined the jazz faculty at the University of Michigan, is a (relatively) young African American gentleman.

To make matters more confusing: Robert Hurst did his undergraduate studies at IU, and Lawrence Hurst used to be on the bass faculty at the University of Michigan.

I've gotta laugh, but the confusion is understandable--we're talking about different Mr. Hursts. Lawrence Hurst, the classical bass teacher at IU, played in the Dallas Symphony and is an older white dude. Robert Hurst, who just joined the jazz faculty at the University of Michigan, is a (relatively) young African American gentleman.

To make matters more confusing: Robert Hurst did his undergraduate studies at IU, and Lawrence Hurst used to be on the bass faculty at the University of Michigan.

<removes foot from mouth only long enough to choke down slice of humble pie>

haha, my mistake

Not that my opinion matters, but I think there are a few key things to look at when choosing a school. First, you have to find a teacher you like, so take lessons with lots of different teachers. Second, you should look for a school that is putting out bass players that are winning jobs. You can check out the list that is going on this website of students winning jobs in this forum. I believe that IU, Rice, and Curtis are always at the top. Occassionally another school will have a student land a job (i.e. last year when a Juilliard student won assistant principal of Milwakee). Finally, you need to see who's students are winning jobs. For example, a great deal of Tim Pitt's students are advancing to the semi's and final's and even winning some jobs, but I don't see a ton of students from Rice not studying with him doing well in auditions. The other thing that people should understand is that if you aren't a jazzer, orchestra playing is what you have to make a living on in the US. I can only think of a handfull of people who make a living playing solo's, so if you are amazing at solo's, awesome, but if not, find out who can teach you how to play the licks and get good at them. Anyways, those are just my opinions and some people would disagree with me about them, but, that's why they are mine. Hope this is helpful to anyone looking for a school.

While we're listing schools that have a good record for producing job-winners, we don't want to forget Boston University. Ed Barker is a job factory.

Hey all....I just spoke to a princ player of a big five. I wont use his name cause I didn't ask him if I could quote him.
In any case we were talking about getting gigs in the USA and the like as I am now back on the circuit.
Well , we spoke about playing solos and I studied only solo work with this person for two weeks recently ( as well as a lot of fundamental technique).Basically no excerpts.

His remark to me was " I played a recital a year for many years, If I hadn't I never would have landed the orchestra jobs that I have, not a chance. It was my solo playing that really pushed me over the top of the rest"
That is not a direct quote but you get the point.

Learning licks is easy. Buy a cd , metronome and q-tips. Clean out your ears and LISTEN. Many times. To what you are doing and to what you think you are doing ...
When you can tell the difference and add to that what you WANT to do . Then the formula is complete.

All too many of my european colleagues think that american bassist can't play solo works. Of course this is BS to the lhighest degree.

I understand the importance of Winning a gig and the economic implications that come with such gig winning.
I too was in the same position. Though in retrospect I wished I had spent a little more time asking questions about music
instead of metronome markings for Beethoven 5.

Many of my european colleagues in my view are not strong in playing excerpts ( hold on now I'm not finished). But they are still marvelous musicians and one can not say that european orchestra are not good. Of course there are exceptions.

Many if not most of all the big orchestra in the USA were formed by mostly immigrant europeans. This even includes the diaspora of jewish musicans who fled in the early 1900s for example and settled in Los Angeles and set the standadrd for the film music industry. Probably most of the musicians who played on the "Merry Melodies" cartoons were such players.
They of course had other drives than economic to get jobs.

Good students make good good teachers. So I don't care if you study with Gary, Hal ,Paul, Ed or Roland De Curb. If you aint listening you aint listening.
Thanks

I'm gonna say this until the day I die.

The point is not to pick a school. A lot of good music schools have sub-par bass departments and a lot of OK music schools have excellent bass departments. Two examples...
Eastman-great, great music school. JD VanDermark? never heard one good thing about him.
But
Until last year one could have studied with Tim Cobb at SUNY Purchase.

But back to the issue at hand. Even though Paul Cannon is a moron , Indiana and Rice would be excellent. UNT has Jeff Bradatich, who is an excellent player and teacher. Also Volkon Ouhron (sp?), at Oregon is a great teacher (Reccomened by none other than Gary Karr).

BUUUUT, the best thing to do would be come to juilliard and study with Levinson.

As a new student at Eastman in the both the Jazz and Classical departments I would like to mention the Mr. VanDemark is an absolute monster at the bass (meant as the highest compliment possible) as well as being an incredible, articulate teacher.

I'm fairly confident that he has been teaching at Eastman sense he was TWENTY YEARS old which says a lot to me. I have also heard that he soloed with and premiered pieces with Gary Karr at around age 15-17 but I haven't checked that out for myself.

In conclusion, I refuse to let someone call the bass department at this school sub-par - you are welcome to come here some of the juniors, seniors, master students, or the Eastman Philoharmonia (upper class-men Orchestra).

As a new student at Eastman in the both the Jazz and Classical departments I would like to mention the Mr. VanDemark is an absolute monster at the bass (meant as the highest compliment possible) as well as being an incredible, articulate teacher.

I'm fairly confident that he has been teaching at Eastman sense he was TWENTY YEARS old which says a lot to me. I have also heard that he soloed with and premiered pieces with Gary Karr at around age 15-17 but I haven't checked that out for myself.

In conclusion, I refuse to let someone call the bass department at this school sub-par - you are welcome to come here some of the juniors, seniors, master students, or the Eastman Philoharmonia (upper class-men Orchestra).

I certianly meant no offense from my comment and I'm sure that JD is a great teacher for those whom his style works for. However, in my very very limited experiences with him, I felt as though he was not up to par with Eastman's reputation.

Once again, just an opinion, not necessarily right, but mine.

Mr. Joey Jr.

You say you want to play classical bass, so my response is geared towards that. In looking for schools, take a look at the audition winners list that is in this very forum started by KPO. It is most telling because it lists the schools of the winners. The proof is right there in black and white. That doesn't make other schools bad or sub par. It just means that for getting work in the professional U.S. orchestras, these are the schools that are producing winners.

Also consider that in many areas of the country you can get a teaching cert. in one semester. Why not have that be your back up plan. Give it your all with tunnel vision focus and if it doesn't work out, then you are a mere 4 months away from a teaching cert. To put it another way...there are at least 100 bass students in the country right now who are dead set on winning an orchestral job when they are out of school and many of them have the drive and talent to pull it off. If you want to compete with these kids (and that is totally up to you), then I suggest that you focus on one thing and one thing only. I don't think that is the best guide to a happy life, but for the years that you are shooting for an orchestral job, it is the base level of commitment that your peers will be putting in.

Mr. Joey Jr.

You say you want to play classical bass, so my response is geared towards that. In looking for schools, take a look at the audition winners list that is in this very forum started by KPO. It is most telling because it lists the schools of the winners. The proof is right there in black and white. That doesn't make other schools bad or sub par. It just means that for getting work in the professional U.S. orchestras, these are the schools that are producing winners.

Also consider that in many areas of the country you can get a teaching cert. in one semester. Why not have that be your back up plan. Give it your all with tunnel vision focus and if it doesn't work out, then you are a mere 4 months away from a teaching cert. To put it another way...there are at least 100 bass students in the country right now who are dead set on winning an orchestral job when they are out of school and many of them have the drive and talent to pull it off. If you want to compete with these kids (and that is totally up to you), then I suggest that you focus on one thing and one thing only. I don't think that is the best guide to a happy life, but for the years that you are shooting for an orchestral job, it is the base level of commitment that your peers will be putting in.

One thing to think about with this point is the size of the program. Let's say Bransby and Hurst at IU graduate 40 (just a guess) highly qualified bassists every 4 years and Ed barker at BU graduates 5. If 10 players from IU and 1 from BU get jobs, it's going to appear as though IU students are doing "better" when in fact, just as many are winning jobs (percentage-wise).

Now I'm not knocking IU, it's a great school with two great bass teachers. period. But just keep in mind the size of the program, if half of the audition winners are IU grads, that's because half of the people going to school are going to IU (and practicing their butts off!).

Nobody will care whether you respect your teacher if you can't follow orders...and part of most auditions is to prove you do follow orders whether you want to do it or not. A good teacher's going to get your feet wet when it comes to this, to demand you play a passage the way he/she wants it played no matter how you think the music should sound, your personal opinion about the teacher or his/her own playing abilities.

Being a great player and being able to express yourself, putting your own personal stamp on the music you love, is not a luxury. It's an expectation, and respecting any teacher never made me a better player.

I have to bust my ass for that on my own. :bassist: