i've been thumpin away for about a year and a half now and i've only dabbled a bit in reading music and a wee wee WEE bit o' theory. i've got my mechanics pretty much down so i could play a set...provided i have tab. so now i really want to get an instructor and learn some theory. but hearing some people talking about theory makes me wonder if i'm in over my head, cuz it sounds really complex. so am i just spazzin or is it really that difficult?

Aye, if you really want to learn music theory, dedicate yourself to learning it. If you work hard at it and immerse yourself in it by spending time with musician's who know a lot of music theory, one day will come a year or two down the road where it suddenly clicks. Music theory is not simply the study of how chords and notes fit together mathmatically, but why they do, and all the applications of things.

If you're good at math, it'll be easier than it is for me. I'm a math rock.

1. Buy a cheap keyboard. You'll thank me later.

2. It's generally referred to as music theory.

Well, I'm a computer science student AND a musician. And I'll make damn sure my sucking at maths won't hold me back:)

My teacher is working on showing how theory relates to basslines, and how to go beyond that and create your own lines. I know there's a lot to learn, and it will take more then a lifetime to get it all in, but every week I step out of the classroom and feel like I've added one more little piece of knowledge to my 'bag of tricks'. It's a start, and it's not too hard if you try to learn it a little bit at a time. Give it time to sink in.

When do you need math in music? For counting 1, 2, 3, etc. can't be seen as math, can it? :eyebrow:

I think one of the key reasons why people get so freaked out about music theory is that they approach it with all this anxiety like "I learn playing, and I learn theory" separating them into two different worlds of study and making it difficult to connect the two, which in turn makes it difficult to see the relevance in learning theory to supplement playing knowledge, or playing to append theory knowledge.

Basic theory really isn't that difficult to get a grasp on, scales, modes, keys, voice leading, chord construction...etc.

so much of it is inter-related and it's not too hard to get your head around it if you apply yourself for a while.

But really, I would advise you to think about WHY you want to study theory, why you feel like it's important to you, and what you want to get out of studying theory. Once you know that, you will be better suited to pursue that study. imo.

When do you need math in music? For counting 1, 2, 3, etc. can't be seen as math, can it? :eyebrow:


well, it really depends what type of music you're pursuing. If all you're doing is playing simple rock/blues or something, chances are slim you'll ever need to bust out a calculator. But if you're doing process music or complicated poly rhyhtms or music that explores lots of weird meters, music in another intonation system, or music using any number of abnormal methods of creation, you'll be doing a lot more than just counting 1,2,3...etc.

For instance, I just made a piece of music in 17/16:18/16, it's 18 minutes l long and it incorporates melodies that I derived from thinking about the relationship of numbers to intervals and pitches.

Go listen to serialist music or any process music of the 20th century really and you will find more 'math' than you can shake an abacus at.

What's more, the 'math' runs deeper than just playing and application. For every note you hit you can come up with equations and numbers and values and whatever you want. I mean, just think about the overtone series for a bit, there's some complicated math there.

basic music thoery really isn't that hard, you just have to really work at it (like anything else in life)

But really, I would advise you to think about WHY you want to study theory

because i want to extend my knowledge and prowess in the low end beyond simply being able to play the bass and move more into understanding it and being able to improv. basically i wanna take it to the next level. i'm really serious about bass and i can't see myself possibly giving it up!

I mean, just think about the overtone series for a bit, there's some complicated math there.
Complicated, I don't know. I think we have totally different perspectives on math - I don't think the fairly simple arithmetics involved in music theory are especially complicated. And most of the time I think the underlying concepts of physics are harder to grasp the mathematics used when working with them (and many times you don't even need to understand the math involved, just use it ;)). And the deeper concepts of music are (to me anyway) more abstract and unintuitive than the act of counting beats and measures (no matter what polyrhythms you throw at me). And the serialist et al. mathematics you bring up, stuff like that is just contrived... to me, that sort of "math" is like it's sprinkled on top of the music, not inherent in it (although composers may think differently ;)). I mean, you could just as well illustrate similar mathematical concepts by stapling beer cans in your living room, so I really don't think it applies.

IME a minor part of mathematics plays a minor part in music. That's why I think one shouldn't overemphasize its role, since it just might scare people away from learning music theory... everyone hates math, no? ;)

I wouldn't overemphasize math in music, because I don't think that it's exactly that big of a deal either. That said, I wouldn't understate the presence of whatever math you want in just about any facet of music you can think of. I think you can take as deep of a mathematical approach to music as you'd like applying whatever advanced concepts and formulas you want successfully and you wouldn't be wrong for doing so.
:hmm:

hearing some people talking about theory makes me wonder if i'm in over my head, cuz it sounds really complex. so am i just spazzin or is it really that difficult?
It's not that hard. It's just that when you hear people discussing theory they're taking stuff you haven't learned yet for granted. Once you get a little under your belt theory discussions won't seem nearly as ineffable.

but hearing some people talking about theory makes me wonder if i'm in over my head, cuz it sounds really complex. so am i just spazzin or is it really that difficult?

I think people have different natural aptitudes for dealing with music theory... just take it at your own pace, and don't beat yourself up too much

and don't try and learn everything at once! like most things in life, the 90/10 rules apply... to generalise, the first 10% of music theory stuff you will ever learn (basic scale/chord stuff) is the material you'll draw on 90% of the time

you'll be amazed at how far the basics will take you

best o luck :bassist:

I found breaking into music theory quite tricky. You start to learn one thing, but you need to know something else then that it's related to, which leads onto something else... Then, after a point, it all fits together and you can see how it relates to itself, and then it becomes easier.

A wise teacher once told me that the point of learning all this music theory is so that you can forget it. In other words, it becomes so ingrained in your being that you don't even have to think about it anymore - it just happens. Like riding a bike.

Keep that in mind during the most difficult of times while you're learning it: I'm learning it so I can forget it. It helps.

A wise teacher once told me that the point of learning all this music theory is so that you can forget it. In other words, it becomes so ingrained in your being that you don't even have to think about it anymore - it just happens. Like riding a bike.

Keep that in mind during the most difficult of times while you're learning it: I'm learning it so I can forget it. It helps.

I know what you're saying, but I always thought that was a slightly confusing way of putting it. You're not really forgetting this info; if you forget something, you don't know it any more. Which is not what you want here.

IMO the idea is more that you know the stuff so well that you internalize it and thus don't have to consciously and laboriously call it up every time you want to do something. It's really the opposite of forgetting--it's deep memory, if you will. When you're riding a bike, your body hasn't really forgotten how to do it at all; rather, it remembers how so well that you don't have to spend any conscious energy on telling it what to do.

I think we're talking about the exact same thing; it's just that I've seen people get confused when you say they're supposed to learn something only to later forget it. ("What? I have to learn all this stuff, and then I'm supposed to forget it? So why should I learn it in the first place? Why don't I save some time and forget it NOW?")

I guess it's just a little more colloquial way of putting it.

I started out on guitar :hiding: and even though I could play a G chord,
I couldn't tell you that the bottom note of the chord was "G." When I started playing bass, things made sense. After I learned where all the notes were, the flood-gates broke open. Now when I started studying jazz harmony and theory, it took a while to internalize, but then one day
its like, "Oh! thats how that works!" Its like anything else, you've got to put the time and effort into it to get results.

Two thoughts:
1. It's necessary and worth it.
2. Maybe the poll needs an "all of the above?"

(newbie to the forum, here)

I'm a drummer who started playing bass for fun in the late 80's and recently picked it up again a few years ago. Always one to play by ear and feel, I decided to seek pro instruction with the hopes of learning about more "tools" to use in a creative sense. With good technique and a decent ear, theory could only help, right?

I don't know if I made a good decision or not. When I started, I of course could read rhythms, but didn't have a clue about the notation, fretboard, scales, modes and on and on. Many lessons later, I still can't do any of it. It's profoundly confusing to me, much moreso than learning advanced drumming, and I just can't get a grip on the logic behind most of it. At the end of my daily practices, I usually find myself debating whether or not to put the ol' Stingray on eBay and just forget about it all together. Frustrating!

I've committed myself to, at the very least, mastering the fretboard and being able to sight read adequately. If I'm not completely burnt out at that point, I'll continue on with theory. (Help!)

Peewee

Truly, since you can already read rhythms competently, putting notes to them should be pretty easy. There are only 12 notes ya know.

One of the reasons why it is difficult to learn to read on a bass, guitar or just about any stringed instrument. Is because there are multiple ways to play the same note. Therefore, even if you know all the notes on the staff, and you know all the notes on the fretboard, there can still be a disconnect regarding WHICH F# to play.

This is where theory starts to come into play. By studying scales, chords, arpeggios and key signatures. You will be able to look at a phrase of music and instead of seeing individual notes that could fall almost anywhere on the fretboard. You will see scales, arpeggios, chords, melody and harmony that you will know "oh, the most efficient way to play this line would be in 5th position" or "oh, that's just like a C minor scale without a 6th, that's easy"

To further draw some parallels, when you read this post. You didn't read each individual letter. You read whole words, or even sentences. The point is, Music isn't much different, you want to be able to look at a page of music and not obsess about specific notes, but see the bigger picture. And to see the bigger picture you have to understand harmony and melody and yaddayaddayadda.

I hope that helps at all. Believe me, rhythms are the hardest part about sight reading, you've already got that part down, the rest will come to you with practice.

Also, it can be difficult to get this when you're engorged in one facet of things, but theory and playing is all interconnected. Being good at sight reading is invaluable and will greatly help your pursuit of theory should you continue to pursue it.

Also, it can be difficult to get this when you're engorged in one facet of things, but theory and playing is all interconnected. Being good at sight reading is invaluable and will greatly help your pursuit of theory should you continue to pursue it.

I think this is a Yes and NO...so I think it depends what music you are playing....:hmm:

When I was at school, I was interested in Stockhausen - avant-garde music, sang in a choir and played bass from written music.

Then I went off to college, forgot about all this and started playing in punk bands - then New Wave, rock bands.

All the time I was playing bass in these bands through the 1980s - none of my fellow musicians had any idea about theory and we never talked about it - songs were written around lyrics and riffs - with no reference to any theory or any written music.

So in 10 year of playing in bands I forget it all and didn't feel any worse off.

It was only in the last 5 or 6 years of studying Jazz where theory is crucial to understanding and being able to play that I have actually seen how useful theory can be and how it integrates - but I think it is only actually playing Jazz that gets it in my head and makes it stay there!

If I was still playing rock/pop, I would forget it all again and see no loss - in fact theory can be confusing to rock players as most rock is ambiguous as regards theory ...

I suppose my point is - put your learning of theory into practice and it will become easier, add interest and make you a better player..

But study without practice is very dull and it's hard to maintain interest ...:hmm:

I suppose my point is - put your learning of theory into practice and it will become easier, add interest and make you a better player..

But study without practice is very dull and it's hard to maintain interest ...:hmm:

Definitely, I agree 100%

Music is a lifetime (and then some) study. The more you put into it, the more you'll get out of it...
Wise man words i think i Hijack this one for my new signature.
:ninja: :hiding: :D

Rarely have I heard the word "wise" used in reference to me without it being quickly followed by "guy" or "ass".

Can I say that here?

:D

:D

Well, I guees you need to preserve the moment because probably next time you'll hear it, it will go back to the natural phrase. ;)

Do ya Love my new signature??? :D

Is theory hard to understand? No more so than the guitar itself. Consider this:

Ask anyone to name the strings and they'll say: EADG
So which is the first string? G
--even though it looks like the last string

And which is the high string? G
--even though it's the lowest one down on the guitar

Then there is whole neck thing. Play up high on the neck and you're playing down close to the body. To play the lowest notes you gotta move, err..., up high on the neck. You need to get this down pat because everyone will tell you that "there is no money above the 5th fret" and you risk financial ruin you miss the boat on this.
-.. and don't get boat confused with bout either, inspite of what some microcephalic people will say about your guitar being a canoe paddle.

Even though the neck of the guitar is long and skinny and the strings end there, if your guitar has a "tailpiece", it's at the fat end, where the strings begin.

You will probably be taught to play your bass "finger style", and yet your bass guitar will have a pick guard. Don't ask.

It's OK to call your guitar an electric bass unless you talk to someone who plays an acoustic upright bass, URB, (AKA bass fiddle, sometimes: Doghouse) then what you play either BG or EBG but never and in no case an EUB, which is another kind of B altogether.

If your guitar has a whole someplace on the top of it, it's probably an acoustic bass guitar, ABG. Even if it's electric (AKA semi-acoustic) it's still called a ABG. Unless it's a hollowbody, in which case it's a BG. But an ABG is never called a hollowbody, even though it has a hollow body and may be electric.

The URB may be wired for sound too, although it is never called a simi-acoustic URB, an or even an EUB. But if you were wondering if there is a ARB or AURB the answer is No.

Please learn to talk about fingering while keeping a straight face. And don't talk to non-bass players about your right hand technique.

If you want to stay sane, stay focused on the instrument. When you see discussion about bass and scales, try not to think about fish, that way madness lies.

And you are worried about music theory? Sort this out first. Then figure out why something completely aural is called chromatic, why modern scales have names like Persian satrapies and why a sixteenth note rest isn't just called a hiccup.

John

..... "You will be able to look at a phrase of music and instead of seeing individual notes that could fall almost anywhere on the fretboard. You will see scales, arpeggios, chords, melody and harmony that you will know "oh, the most efficient way to play this line would be in 5th position" or "oh, that's just like a C minor scale without a 6th, that's easy"...

That's a helpful justification for studying all of this that I haven't heard before. Thank you!