If you were to apply to IU, should it be Hurst or Bransby?

Rephrasing the question, who's students get the most jobs?

Oh please...Diplomacy my Lad. Good students make good teachers . If you attiude is that "teacher will make me" then you are in for a shock.
I have heard both are fine teachers. So you could get something out of both. Of course your bow style could be a determining factor. Hurst=violin bow, Bransby=buttler bow.

But if it's stats you want then maybe Paul Ellison knows. I hear he has a good overview on who's students win what jobs. Though he is probably soon #1.

Why don't you ask Bransby or Hurst yourself if you really need to know and see what they say. I'm sure they will help you out.

I hope this helps.
BTW I would check Roland Decurb. He is an awesome teacher with lots' of sudents getting gigs

I've heard ir from a number of sources that Mr. Hurst is no longer accepting students to persue retirement. However, knowing Iu's great history of bass teachers they'll get another monster to replace him.

Sorry, I didn't mean to offend anybody. I certainly apologize if I did.

I agree with you about the fact that the teacher doesn't make the student. Having said that, certain teachers/schools place more students in orchestras. It's a sad fact. You have famous schools with famous teachers that don't really place many students (I won't mention names), then you have others that do. Maybe they are good psychologists and know how to motivate students, maybe it's technique, I don't know.

Yo Dr. Rod, I appologize. Upon rereading your original post I realise that I read too much into it. PLease excuse my post. I guess my caffeine was kicking in at the same time as I read your mail.
I agree with you that good teachers are good psychologists. I think the best teachers are the ones who really "teach" nothing but instead create the circumstances under which the students learns on his own.
I have had "famous" teachers and some things Learned from them were things they never said. and some of the things they told me to do kept my paralyzed with fear to try anything else. But that's me.

There has been no official announcement of retirement any time soon and I am pretty sure he accepted some bass players last year, they just didn't come here.

ah...

Colin Corner, now assistant of the Vancouver Symphony, studied with Hurst and Bransby. He said he had to pull a lot of strings to manage it, so I wouldn't count on that being an option. However, what he told me was that Hurst was really great about solidifying technique and getting students to be more expressive in their solo playing, while Bransby got his technique sharpened for orchestral auditions and so forth.

I studied for two months with Mr. Bransby this last summer, and I really enjoyed my time with him. It's bad to speak in general terms, especially when comparing teachers, but I felt like Bransby was at his best when teaching orchestral technique and literature. He is a German bow player, but can teach French just as well.

Hey G-Force, no problem, I understand how my post could lead to misunderstandings.

Now what you guys are saying basically is that Hurst is great to actually teach you how to play the bass, but Bransby would be a better orchestral coach. That's very good info. I am a German bow player too so I might think about auditioning there.

By the way, what school is BTW?

By the way, what school is BTW?

BTW= By The Way.

stupid me, so embarrassing

:)

So, who is this Roland Decurb, He doesn't appear on the internet search engines.

Both Ben Jenson and Tom McGary won 2 jobs recently, ben winning principal of Detriot and Tom winning two Canadian positions in Kitchner and Calgary. Both were Bransby students. Coming straight out of IU and winning jobs thats it for the last two years. Before that, you could check the Orchestra Job Winners thread. That will give you a good low down. As far as Hurst not letting students into his studio anymore, I don't know about that. There has been no official announcement of retirement any time soon and I am pretty sure he accepted some bass players last year, they just didn't come here.

Tom did his undergrad with Hurst and his grad with Bransby.

Well I will give you one hint..Redrum...

I thought his name was Roland E. Curb. One of Bransby's favorite composers I think.

Chriieeess is that you, good old Hoyt ??

How are you?

Hey Hoyt, what is your opinion in this? How did you like IU ?

IU was great. The only real problem I had with it was that some of the bass students there like to talk trash about the teacher that they don't study with (both studios are guilty of this, it has nothing to do with the teachers themselves) because they're insecure about their choice in teachers. But I know that you would rise above that nonsense.

Both teachers are great Rod. Your German bow is good enough that it doesn't matter which person you study with in regards to bow technique.

I personally had no problems with Hurst, though some people didn't like him so much because they felt like he didn't really care and was more in to the adminstrative thing. He's very nice and I'm sure he'd love to teach you Rod. Though I'd be weary, he might be retiring soon, no idea about that though. I could maybe find out for you if you want.

Bransby is superb too, but obviously since I didn't study with him, I don't know first hand. What I do know from people I trust who studied with him, is that he's really good at getting in to detail in the excerpts. The bad thing that I hear about him is that he's a bit impersonal and it takes awhile for him to warm up to you. If that doesn't bother you, then go for it.

Both are great teachers, if you have the time and resources, go down and take lessons from each of them to get a better idea about them.

And despite what everyone will say, it's really not that hard to switch from one teacher to the other at IU. Sure, there is some tension between both of them, but as long as you're honest with whoever you're switching from, it's fine. The problem is that some people switch without telling their teacher, which I think is kind of a slap in the face. My former roommate studied with Hurst for his Masters and Bransby for his Doctorate. He was upfront with Hurst about it when he made the decision and Hurst was fine about it, and actually appreciative that he was being upfront with him. The problem is that people are scared for some reason.

Are you thinking about doing a Doctorate there? It's a bitch of a program, just so you know.

As for Roland Curb, it's not really that important, it's just an inside joke that's been going on for some years now.

And B. Johnson, I was just pointing out that Tom studied with both of them. What's the problem?

Thanks Hoyt, that's really helpful.
Now, you say the doctorate is a heavy program, what would be the program to go for if you just want to practice and be left alone?

Where are you now?

Like everyone is saying, you should get lessons from both to see which style you would like. I find that Hurst teaches by allowing yourself how to figure out your tech. problems, fingerings, musicality, etc., while Bransby would teach you how he can play (which is extremely quick, great intonation, and overall extremely impressive). Both are very different ways, and utilizing both styles (i personally think) would make you an incredible player. However like most schools, you can only have 1 primary teacher.

This is all from personal expierence of course.

As for who's winning the most jobs? by pure numbers Hurst. I am not biased because I personally studied with Hurst, but numbers don't lie.

Recently Tom won 2 jobs, but like someone said, he studied with Hurst for 4 years, and is now finishing his masters (2 yrs) with bransby. As for Ben, thats incredible that he has "won" both jobs, but until he keeps one of these huge jobs, bransby students haven't really won too many in recent years.

I know for a fact that Hurst will not retire. He is going to teach until he physically can't anymore.

and for Colin "pulling strings" to get lessons with bransby is a stretch. During the school year he got some lessons with bransby while still being a hurst student. The only time you could say Colin had bransby as his primary teacher was in the summer when he is at Aspen (for 2 more years now). Which is of course 2 yrs after he won LPO section, LPO assistant princ., and now the associate. VSO.

I think that Hurst is a miracle worker for aspiring bassists. I feel the reason why Hurst picked myself after my audition for the school over bransby, is because bransby probably didn't have the patience to take someone who had my playing abillity then. Although there were some times that i wish hurst would just straight up tell me why am i playing bad (bransby style), but it just depends on how you learn, and if you have a good connection with your teacher. EVERY teacher and student relationship is unique.

But Dr. Rod, why are you getting your doctorate if you want to be orchestra player? I find most people that get their DM's are more incline to teach. Personally by the sounds of it, you wanting to just practice and play with no work, I would suggest just getting a performance diploma, because the course work to get your DM from Boston, IU Rice, is pretty time consuming.

I have something else I would like to add. Indiana is a humbling school. It doesn't matter how good you think you are, there will always be bassists better then you. No matter what you age or expierience. Its just incredible that every year at IU there is always 1 or 2 freshman that are way way ahead for there age- always keeping you on your toes..

So my point is, if your looking for an ego boosting few years, you looking at the wrong school.

If your still interested, then i think your ego may diminish (by the way im not saying you have one, ive never met you), but im basically saying however good you think you can play, you will probably be dissapointed at first (at your playing), but you will have to look at it in a different perspective. Use your peers (even if they are much different in age) as an advantage that most schools wont have to offer; 40 great players that are always practicing, 40 different peopel to play for, 40 different ways of playing, and 40 different views on playing.

My experience at IU was great, and thats why after seeing the caliber of players and teachers that are at IU, I can safely say it is one of the best (or the best) schools for a bassist to learn at.

Rod,

Let's put it this way, the Doctoral Program requires you to play 3 recitals, 2 solo and one chamber; two minors on top of your Bass Performance major, one of those minors HAS to be Education, Theory or History, the other can be whatever you want, but I think it still has to be music related. Plus electives and a thesis. I know one person who's done it since I was at IU (2001-2004-5ish), and he is now teaching at a small school in Northern Florida. I mean...it's a sure way to get a job to pay the bills, but you'll be teaching at a smaller school. If that's what you're looking for then the Doctorate is for you. This degree generally runs about 3-7 years. The guy I know did it in 3 or 4 I think...but he crammed like hell.

However, like the guy above (Adam?) said, the performance diploma is a good way to just go to school to study and practice for auditions. But just like your Bachelors and Masters, it's just a piece of paper that you can hang above your toliet in case you run out of toliet paper. The only annoying thing about a Performers Diploma is that they make you take a foreign language. I'm not sure if they still do this or not...though I don't think that would be a big problem for you Rod. ;)

Oh and one other thing to consider, with the Doctorate you don't have to play in school orchestra, with the Performers Diploma you do. As great as it sounds to play in the orchestras there (and they are great) I know how you like to do gigs, and IU is a bit unforgiving about letting you out for them. They're good orchestras (especially the Phil and Chamber) but like any school orchestra, it gets to be a pain in the ass quickly if you're lucky enough to get the few gigs there are around there, which I'm sure you would.

Right now I'm in Chicago playing with Chicago Civic.

And Rod, if you end up deciding to go to Bloomington, let me know through email. You still have it right? We should really talk, I still have your number so I might give you a call sometime. It's been how long? 6 years? More? Crazy. I still remember the last thing you said to me before you left....

GERMAN BOW!!!! :bassist:

that's really good info



so how would IU react to this scenario:

I am a doctoral student, I got a graduate scholarship (wishful thinking) no orchestra duty so I can gig freely, I practice my butt off, but..............I kinda blow the academic stuff.

I am in Canada and as an international student I would have to be "enrolled" as a full time student.

I doubt they would react very well to it. They like to get service from their grad students in return for scholarship money. The school is also pretty stern about the ensemble requirements for performers--you pretty well have to play, and if you run off to gigs that take you away from school (like one of the bass players who just did a month-long tour with a festival orchestra in the middle of the semester) they throw a sh!t fit.

But it sounds like the kind of life you're looking for is more the Artist Diploma type; there's not much of an academic component, it's just performance-based, and I'm not sure about the ensemble requirements (but you probably would still have to do some of that). Check here for more info about the Artist Diploma and the other stuff: http://www.indiana.edu/~bulletin/iub/music/2003-2005/

Also, NEC has an Artist Diploma program that's all-expenses-paid, I believe, and is entirely performance-oriented.

Thanks Johono5.

I'm studying with Bransby right now and I've got to say the man knows his stuff. He's a bit sarcastic at times and can be a little off-putting if you have a thin skin but if you work hard for him you'll get alot out of him.

Favorite Bransby quote so far: "Some people do it that way, other people win jobs."

He's hilarious:D

Oh, and to add to Johno5, there's also a Performers Diploma which I'm doing right now. All it requires is 6 credits of a 500+ level class, orchestra, a recital, and one year of a language (which I think you can get out of if you have taken a language previously). For those 6 credits, I took 3 in a class called MIDI and Computer Music (easy!) and the other 3 in a Latin American Popular Music History course (some papers, not too difficult though). The upside to the Performer's Diploma is that it's slightly less exclusive than the Artist's Diploma and requires one less recital (but don't quote me on that). Here's the graduate admissions page: http://www.music.indiana.edu/admissions/graduate/index.shtml . Have fun!

Thanks MantisBot

I think I might try Aspen, but maybe not this year.

I think I might try Aspen, but maybe not this year.
Man, I love Aspen. It's such a great place to be. I half wish I was going again. Maybe another year.

You simply cannot go wrong by studying at IU. That said, I think that deciding what teacher to study with might depend on where you are in your bass development. I think that Hurst gives a very general, very widely accepted approach to the bass, which is great for an undergrad. Bransby teaches the way that he plays the bass, and that style is very personal to him. It seems that Bransby gives a more thorough and detailed teaching of excerpts and of studying to win an audition, as long as one can separate themselves from his sound and use his teachings within their own style of playing. Therefore, he might be better for a Masters' Degree. But to me, Hurst is the better pedagogue. Just my two cents.

thanks bassgirl

could you elaborate on what you wrote on knowing how to distance yourself from Bransby's style and sound. Is this something he accepts?

Indiana is a humbling school. It doesn't matter how good you think you are, there will always be bassists better then you. No matter what you age or expierience. Its just incredible that every year at IU there is always 1 or 2 freshman that are way way ahead for there age- always keeping you on your toes..

I understand that there will always be better players than you (me), but are there players that are in the bass program that suprise you that they made it in the school? I'm thinking about aud. there in the next couple years, but my self confidance is lacking... I don't think that I'm bad by any means, but I think that I should be a lot better than I am... I guess what I'm trying to say is that are there players there that are questionable skil wise, or is everyone there extremely talented and very good? It's hard to word that question, but I hope that makes sense...

I remember hearing that Colin Corner was almost rejected from IU, and now he's in the Minnesota Symphony.

bassicaly_J

I was exactly in your shoes. After my first year, i was still in university orchestra, and never made the phil throughout my undergrad...

with that said, ya my confidence was low, i was pissed off. But this is the perfect time to get your attitude straight, and move on.

In my personal situation, I had to realize when I first came to IU, I was techincally behind by a year. But you can't forget there is a reason why you won a spot at IU (are you studying with Hurst or Bransby?)

I then realized that Hurst must have saw something in me, and he knew, after (x amount of time) something will click, and progress will start in motion.

You also have to take into account that everyone has a different learning curve. Some people get incredible skills in the beginning, some stay constant (myself), and others are rather last minute

YOu need to figure out where you are at? So once i figured that out, i wasn't getting mad at myself for not excelling as fast as someone else. Once you get into this mindset, I feel that sky's the limit.

as for the colin corner comment. I am a close friend of his, and I heard that his freshman year he wasn't the greatest. (i got there his 2nd year) But like i just stated, everyone has a different learning curve, and at the end of colin's second year, you saw his ability skyrocket up. by the end of his 4th year he won the concerto competition, princ of phil, had sick chops, won LPO before he offically graduated. Then won assistant LPO the next year, then won vancouver associate, made finals to a bunch of principal auditions, and now recently won minnesota.

so with colin as an example, i wouldn't be pissed off if my ability wasn't on the same pace of colin, even if (which we did) practice the same amount of time, at the same time, with the same teacher). I knew my potential, and became patient enough to except where my ability was then, and now.......

Bassicaly_J, sorry for the huge response here, its just funny because i went through the same stuff. Also this is just my opinion, and i know that this opinion is perfect, and is the only answer to your problem....

so today, when i sub in pro orchestras I now enjoy being at the back of section, ive learned to like what i used to feel embarassed. Ive also got to sit assistant principal 1 concert, but im able to take that unique situation as a great learning time, not that I am the second best in the orchestra.

it's a crazy thing to say, but you need to have a healthy balance of ego and chops. You can't go in an audition thinking your the greatest thing, but you also can't go in thinking that everyone could kill you.... but like you said about auditions, this is something you can only learn if you take more and more auditions. The more you take, the more you learn. i would recommend taking as many as possible, even if you have "no" chance.... so IU is great by having yearly auditions, as well as the tons of local orchestras all around indiana, illinois, and kentucky