Arite - time to humble myself. I can jam up a storm and have been doing so for many many years, but on paper I still don't know what I'm doing, and I've comitted to knowing this stuff inside out. I'm working right with scales in the bass grimoire and it's got me confused. The minor scales:

In practicality (not theory) what's the difference btwn the harmonic, the melodic, and the pantatonic? How would you know which to use, and are there musical styles which always use one, and rarely another, or are more common, etc?

How come the minor scales I've been using aren't even in this book? The pentatonic comes closest but how come an A isn't included in the G minor scale? I'm confused. The A works -as do C# & F#. What scale is that? I'm sure I didn't make it up. In short, my rock and roll minor scale - in the key of G has always included G-A-A#-C-C#-D-F-F#.

Please de-mystify this stuff for me - It's stuff I should have known 20 years ago. Thanks.

The Pentatonic Minor Scale is 1-b3-4-5-b7-8, or in G - G Bb C D F G. It has only 5 notes, hence the name Penta-tonic. If you add the C#, it's called the Blues Scale. You can also add the F# as a passing tone between F and G. These scales don't have an A in them (scale degree 2), but... it will work, sounds fine.

The other minor scales - Harmonic, Melodic and Natural are all built differently.

Harmonic is: 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 7 8 - do the transposition to G on your own. It has a Gypsy or Middle Eastern vibe. Think Dick Dale's version of Miserlou.

Melodic is: 1 2 b3 4 5 6 7 8 going up, and 8 b7 b6 5 4 b3 2 1 going down. This is the traditional melodic Minor taught in classical schools. "Jazz" Melodic minor is just 1 2 b3 4 5 6 7 8 both ways. This gets used in jazz frequently.

Natural Minor is also the Aeolian Mode, it's: 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 8. Rockers use this alot because it has a very easy fingering pattern, 1 2 4 1 2 4 1 3.

The thing they all have in common is a b3, that's what makes a scale or chord minor. Which one you use depends on the chords you're playing too. Rock, power chords, etc would work best with Minor Pentatonic or Blues Scales. Minor triads sound cool with either harmonic or melodic, and minor seventh chords with natural, or minor pent or blues scales.

Hope that helps.

In practicality (not theory)...

Hey Joe! Although you're not asking for theory, and just trying to complement Mr. Friedland's great explanation on minor scales, I think it's a good idea to read this thread (http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=217330). :)

G-A-A#-C-

I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned that the A# there should be a Bb. That's because the third degree of the scale has to be spelled as a third (G-Bb is a minor third while G-A# is an augmented second). Similarly, the third in C minor is Eb not D#, etc.

I like the grimoire book. After you are done there grab Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book". It will give insight to the many ways you can use these scales over chords and changes.

Natural Minor is also the Aeolian Mode, it's: 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 8. Rockers use this alot because it has a very easy fingering pattern, 1 2 4 1 2 4 1 3.

Good Sir, are you suggesting that rockers play certain things purely because they are easy on the fingers? E Jam blues anyone? :eyebrow:


Also worth mentioning, I think, is the reason for these different minor scales..

Natural minor is just that, the minor scale found naturally at the 6th degree of the major scale. I.e. C major and A natural minor use the same notes

Harmonic minor is only one note different from natural minor - the 7th is raised to a Major 7th so that when harmonised, it creates a dominant 7 chord on the 5th degree and increases the pull to the tonic to strenghten cadences in minor keys. The distinctive sound in this scale is the augmented 2nd interval between the minor 6th and Major 7th degrees - it's a very strong sound.

The melodic minor scale has the 7th raised for the same reasons as harmonic minor, to create a dominant 7 chord on the 5th degree, but it also has a raised (major 6th). This softens the sound of the scale by removing that distinctive augmented second interval.. making it more melodic :)

Pentatonic is just a cut-down version of natural minor for rockers and jazz pianists ;)

Good Sir, are you suggesting that rockers play certain things purely because they are easy on the fingers? E Jam blues anyone? :eyebrow:


Why of course not! I'm sure that's never happened.....

Thanks for the details behind the names of the minor scales, I never knew that. When I was a little boy, I used to ask my mama - "Mama, why is the Harmonic Minor Scale harmonic?" And she'd look at me and say "Son, someday, you'll understand."

That day has come! :hyper:

To go a bit deeper into melodic minor many composers of the baroque era felt that they preferred a "major" sound in ascending melody lines therefore they changed pure minor to what we know as melodic minor. They used melodic minor for ascending passages but always used pure minor for descending passages.

EDIT: IF you are a classical musician practicing melodic minor you play melodic minor ascending and pure minor descending. IF you play jazz then melodic minor ir referred to as "jazz minor" and you play melodic minor both ascending and descending.

in the key of G has always included G-A-A#-C-C#-D-F-F#.

Please de-mystify this stuff for me - It's stuff I should have known 20 years ago. Thanks.

Okay, this one's a big no-no. 7-tone scales (ie modes) are always spelled so that there is never a repitition of a letter if it's a scale tone. Your G dorian scale should look like: G A Bb C D E F G. The passing tones are the C# and F#. And in your post, you skipped the 6th, not sure why since it's a great tone to hang onto.

A couple of other minor scales I haven't seen posted here would be the Phrygian scale which is a natural minor scale with a lowered 2nd (1, b2, b3, 4, 5, b6, b7). This is a pretty scale and sounds nice in descending lines. This is as minor as you can get before heading into diminishedland

Another minor would be your Be-bop minor: 1, 2 b3, 3, 4, 5, 6, b7. This is for melodic lines while soloing. Avoid playing M3 on downbeat. And play really fast :kidding:

As edfriedland said all the minor chords have the b3 in common. It's interesting moving the other intervals around to see what colors or flavors (sounds) these different scales produce. Of course a LOT of which minor scale is going to sound good is determined by the chord underneath it. With that in mind one can have fun stretching rules here.

Q: So on the ascending melodic minor where the 7 is raised to create a dom V, was the 6 raised to create a dom on the IV as well, or was it the sole idea to get rid of the aug2 interval 'tween b6 and M7?

The Pentatonic Minor Scale is 1-b3-4-5-b7-8, or in G - G Bb C D F G. It has only 5 notes, hence the name Penta-tonic. If you add the... ...blues scales.

Hope that helps.

Hi Ed & thanks. Never noticed you were here before. I'm soon to be diving back into your jazz bass book for a 3rd attempt in about twice as many years. When I get stuck this time on something I'm going to take my questions to the source. :) Hope ya don't mind. I'm determined to get past whatever mental blocks I've got with music theory, reading, jazz... all of it. I'm finally making some progress too.

Thanks all you other guys too. Thanks also for not going hard on me, I was expecting a little ribbing for some reason. Not that I can't take it of course. :cool:

I was gonna say, Joe! Anyone who can pose naked with a bass for pictures can take just about anything, I would think ;)

Anyhow, sounds like you're well on the road, so I'll confine myself to the good natured ribbing you so desperately need and want.
:hiding:

Hi Ed & thanks. Never noticed you were here before. I'm soon to be diving back into your jazz bass book for a 3rd attempt in about twice as many years. When I get stuck this time on something I'm going to take my questions to the source. :) Hope ya don't mind. I'm determined to get past whatever mental blocks I've got with music theory, reading, jazz... all of it. I'm finally making some progress too.

Thanks all you other guys too. Thanks also for not going hard on me, I was expecting a little ribbing for some reason. Not that I can't take it of course. :cool:


Joe,
Good luck. Theory is not so confusing, it's actually very logical. The big problem is finding a clear explanation. Using books can be helpful, but often it raises more questions than answers. Keep asking questions, you'll figure it out.

Ed

Good Sir, are you suggesting that rockers play certain things purely because they are easy on the fingers? E Jam blues anyone? :eyebrow:


Also worth mentioning, I think, is the reason for these different minor scales..

Natural minor is just that, the minor scale found naturally at the 6th degree of the major scale. I.e. C major and A natural minor use the same notes

Harmonic minor is only one note different from natural minor - the 7th is raised to a Major 7th so that when harmonised, it creates a dominant 7 chord on the 5th degree and increases the pull to the tonic to strenghten cadences in minor keys. The distinctive sound in this scale is the augmented 2nd interval between the minor 6th and Major 7th degrees - it's a very strong sound.

The melodic minor scale has the 7th raised for the same reasons as harmonic minor, to create a dominant 7 chord on the 5th degree, but it also has a raised (major 6th). This softens the sound of the scale by removing that distinctive augmented second interval.. making it more melodic :)

Pentatonic is just a cut-down version of natural minor for rockers and jazz pianists ;)


I've never been more confused in my entire life.

In music harmony, the V7 (five dominant seventh) to IM7 (one major seventh) is the most powerful tension-release chord sequence we have.

In a major key, say in the key of C, V7 to IM7 is G7 to CM7. Very powerful harmony. You can hear it. This is where theory is simply used to describe what we hear. We do not do it because the math tells us to, we use the math to describe what we hear, so we can translate what we hear into other keys and other situations. And so we can talk about it using english words.

When playing in a minor key, we want to continue to use that V to I harmonic sound.

We create a natural minor scale from the sixth degree of the major scale. This is simply because those notes, in that order, sound "minor". This is where we get the term "relative" minor. For C major (C D E F G A B C), the "relative" minor starts on the sixth degree, so is A Minor (A B C D E F G A). We call this the natural minor scale.

In a natural minor key, say A, the notes are A B C D E F G A B C D E F G A, which is 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7. Looking at the V to I of this key, the V7 (five seventh) chord of the natrual minor is E G B D. Hmmm. Em7 (e minor seventh). I am sorry, but Em7 is just not the same as E7. The I (one) chord is A C E G, or Am7 (a minor seventh). So, Em7 to Am7 simply sounds like a chord change, not a tension-release situation. But, if we change the Em7 to E7, interestingly enough E7 to Am7 does have tension-release, and by continuing to use the one as a minor seventh continues the fact that we are in a minor key.*

So, rasing the third of the V chord, which is rasing the seventh degree of the natural minor scale, improves the harmonic relationship of the V chord, and gives us the harmonic minor scale. So A harmonic minor would be A B C D E F G# A B C D E F G# A, which is 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 7.

Although we have solved the V problem, we now created a new problem. Notice the F to G# in the above A harmonic minor scale. This is an augmented interval, which is three half steps, more than the common one or two half steps that scales are typically built from, so we raise the sixth degree of the harmonic minor scale to make it more melodic, and get the melodic minor scale. So A melodic minor would be A B C D E F# G# A B C D E F# G# A, which is 1 2 b3 4 5 6 7.

So, if music theory is math, why didn't we just lower the third of the major scale to create the minor scale? Because music theory is not just math, it is also history.

Thinking parallel for C:

C natural minor

C - D - Eb - F - G - Ab - Bb - C

C harmonic minor

C - D - Eb - F - G - Ab - B - C

C melodic minor

C - D - Eb - F - G - A - B - C

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

* We can use this concept to play a V7 before any minor chord. This is where the term "five of two" comes from. If we are playing a major chord progression that has a IIm7 (two minor seventh) in it, we can play the V (five) of that II (two) to get a small V7 to Im7 feeling. So if we are playing Dm7 G7 CM7 Dm7 G7 CM7, we can throw in a five of that Dm7 to get A7 Dm7 G7 CM7 A7 Dm7 G7 CM7. When you are looking at a chord progression, and there are chords that do not seem to fit, the chords that do not fit will often point to a chord that does fit by leading to the chord that fits with chords that would be in that chord's harmony.

Yup. It's all just 3s and 7s.

Let's not leave out the Dorian minor.

C D Eb F G A Bb C

Just had to let you guys know. I had to print out the discussions above this post. You guys have boiled it down to a level that I would not have been able to explain myself.

Peace,

James

Thanks for the details behind the names of the minor scales, I never knew that. When I was a little boy, I used to ask my mama - "Mama, why is the Harmonic Minor Scale harmonic?" And she'd look at me and say "Son, someday, you'll understand."

That day has come! :hyper:

Irony? From an American?! Now I've seen everything. :D

Anyway, yeah I was being a bit of dillon not explaining myself fuily, I dont usually do that. I was just about to leave work :rollno:

Theory is not so confusing, it's actually very logical. The big problem is finding a clear explanation. Using books can be helpful, but often it raises more questions than answers. Keep asking questions, you'll figure it out.Yes. I am concerned that people who know and understand the history and the math of music theory think that all beginners need is a few technical rules to get started. So they include a few items in a book or on a web page that show in words and numbers a few music theory concepts, but leave out the good information that helps to understand why this stuff is important, how to use it, and where to use it.

I remember that physics was not taught to me that way. My high school physics class was more history and biography and concepts than calculations. Later, in college, I was allowed to go into a test with all the equations I could fit onto both sides of one 3 by 5 inch card. Imagine if I now published the information on those small cards as a guide to beginning physics students. Of course they would be confused.

Yes, I agree, which was why I posted on the names of the minor scales. For me, that helped me understand them better. Obviously the same post fell short because, I admit, I couldnt be bothered to go into the neccessary detail to make the post useful to a complete beginner :rolleyes:

I have been lucky enough to have had very clear, logical teaching over the years which has hepled me greatly. The start of which came from our very own Steve Lawson on the ask a pro forum.
That said, I have also put in a great deal of effort to understand the theory side of music. More than many others I have met in similar situation to myself, i.e. an amateur musician.

I also think that perhaps some people underestimate the amount of work and time it takes required to learn this stuff. I mean, I found it all very logical and pretty stright forward from the word go, BUT I remember getting back from those fisrt few lessons where I started down this route, I stayed up until 3am or so practicing what I had been taught for 5 hours or so.

So yeah, it is logical and relatively easy, but you still have to work at it.. which is good, cause it wouldnt be worth working for otherwise :)

Irony? From an American?! Now I've seen everything. :D

Anyway, yeah I was being a bit of dillon not explaining myself fuily, I dont usually do that. I was just about to leave work :rollno:


Irony? My middle name. Actually my second middle name, the first one is Washy, and my third one is Foldy. :eyebrow:

Seriously, this is all very interesting to me because I'm at work on some beginner theory material for the magazine. Trying to find the right sequencing of events, and explanations that are clear and correct is a tough business. In a few months, you'll see something that hopefully fills this gap.

Irony? My middle name. Actually my second middle name, the first one is Washy, and my third one is Foldy. :eyebrow:

Seriously, this is all very interesting to me because I'm at work on some beginner theory material for the magazine. Trying to find the right sequencing of events, and explanations that are clear and correct is a tough business. In a few months, you'll see something that hopefully fills this gap.

You're middle name is irony? Amazing! Mine is Peter. :hmm:

To be honest, I've not read that bit about 'why minor scales are so named' anywhere, I figured it out for myself. It is perfectly logical though, harmonic minor is the development of natural minor for harmonic purposes and melodic minor is more melodic, as it removes that aug 2nd that tends to overwhelm a melody. So I guess it is not 'a fact' per say, but a way of understanding it.

Man, it would make my day if you used something I dreamed up in one of your articles. I loved "salsa subbing" btw, made me chuckle, I thought of it the other day when my mrs-to-be said I wasnt aloud to take any musical instruments whatsoever on our honeymoon! :D

Let's not leave out the Dorian minor.

C D Eb F G A Bb C

This looks like a C Dorian scale to me. Whats the difference between a Dorian scale and Dorian minor?

All Dorian scales don't have to start on D.

According to Phil's post, I think he calls it "Dorian minor" because the Dorian scale has a minor flavor due to the minor third in it. The dorian scale is the natural minor with the sixth grade raised by a half step, which matches Phil's example, so I think there's no difference and would be sort of redundant to call a scale "Dorian minor".

This looks like a C Dorian scale to me. Whats the difference between a Dorian scale and Dorian minor?

All Dorian scales don't have to start on D.

What's the difference between an Aoelian Scale and a Natural Minor?

According to Phil's post, I think he calls it "Dorian minor" because the Dorian scale has a minor flavor due to the minor third in it. The dorian scale is the natural minor with the sixth grade raised by a half step, which matches Phil's example, so I think there's no difference and would be sort of redundant to call a scale "Dorian minor".

It's a minor scale in the same way that the melodic minor is a minor scale and they only differ by one note the 7th. The term "Dorian Minor" isn't obscure either as a quick Google will indicate.

I'll try to keep this as simple and down-to-earth as I can... :hmm: If it's confusing, I'm probably not explaining it well enough.

Just like anything else, it's based on getting a certain sound. When you write something in natural minor, you usually stick to the notes inside the scale, so Bach wouldn't have written a piece in D Harmonic Minor (though maybe a more modern composer/player would). The raised seventh degree was traditionally preferred when leading to the tonic because people tend to feel it "pull" more strongly. Play a minor scale up to the seventh degree and just hold it... then finally hit the tonic. Then do the same with a major scale. If the theory is correct, then you might hear the stronger pull in the major scale because of the non-flatted 7th. It's because of that pull that composers traditionally favored the "leading tone," which was named for the exact reason that it leads naturally into the tonic. This is the "practical" reason behind melodic minor.

Here's the confusing part, though: if you're not moving into the tonic, then you don't need to raise the seventh. The entire point of the raised seventh in minor was to create that expectation in the listener... so when you're moving away from the tonic (down the scale), you use the natural minor scale. If you see the whole harmonic/melodic minor scale written, it usually descends in natural minor.

Getting away from the theory... grab something that you want to play chords on and pound out quick i-v-i progression. Try: a minor, e minor, a minor. Alright. Now try it with the raised seventh (this is harmonic minor): a minor, E Major, a minor. The difference in sound between those two progressions is the "practical" point behind harmonic minor.

What's the real-world use of it all? It's just more sounds at your disposal. I will admit, though, (and some of my music teachers would stab me in the face if they saw me write this) that the non-raised seventh just sounds better to me in some situations; especially if I'm playing rock.

I know Joe didn't ask for the theory, but I think that if theory isn't closely related to the practicality, it's a pretty bogus theory.

I will admit, though, (and some of my music teachers would stab me in the face if they saw me write this) that the non-raised seventh just sounds better to me in some situations; especially if I'm playing rock.

That's because most rock tunes aren't based on "pure" (Aeolian, harmonic, melodic) minor scales but on the minor pentatonic scale (Let's think of the most common key: E minor pentatonic => E-G-A-B-D. No raised 7th here). That's the typical rock scale and maybe you're very used to that. This reminds me of a common situation with a very famous ballad written by a famous brazilian singer. It's in B minor and at a certain point, the melody goes like C# - B - C# - C# - B - A (natural) - B - B (See below and listen it HERE (http://www.ourmedia.org/node/132384)). That's OK and sounds great. But for an unknown reason to me, Mariachi bands decided to do their own version of the song and replaced the A natural by an A# (I don't have a recording of this). It sounds horrible to me! I really hate that version, but that isn't because there's something "technically" wrong with it. It's just that I'm so used to the original version and this one alters the original feel of the tune in a not so pleasant way (to me).

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v639/alvabass/Minormelody.jpg

Tim and Tom both great posts keep it up. Its hard to find any resources that will explain as well as you have.