I am trying to understand jazz and fusion voicings, and I need the help of you theory guru's. Let's use Chameleon as an example. I can play through Chameleon just fine, and I can do a good solo in Bb (or A#, whatever it is) minor pentatonic, and the people in the bar will clap, but I know it is all smoke and mirrors. I didn't grow up listening to jazz. I grew up on rock and blues. I have minor pentatonic on the brain.

Help. What are some scales or modes I can solo in (over the head section) that will sound more jazzy or fusion-like?

Thanks.

Well the tune is a ii-V vamp in Ab, so go from there...

Help. What are some scales or modes I can solo in (over the head section) that will sound more jazzy or fusion-like?
Thanks.

I'm having a very hard time hitting the target when I go pistol shooting. Is there someplace I can get some more ammunition?

I'm having a very hard time hitting the target when I go pistol shooting. Is there someplace I can get some more ammunition?

Excellent advice!

I'm having a very hard time hitting the target when I go pistol shooting. Is there someplace I can get some more ammunition?

A thing of beauty is a joy to behold. I'm humbled.

I'm having a very hard time hitting the target when I go pistol shooting. Is there someplace I can get some more ammunition?

Look, I can solo just fine when needed. (Soloing wasn't the point here, voicing was.) I'm just having a real hard time getting away from pentatonic minor. I was looking for some good advice from guys who have studied and understand jazz voicings. I've been playing for 16 years and have just recently (last couple of years) gotten heavily into jazz.

The last few comments were not what I expected to get. I'm not a 16 year old with a brand new 4 string git-tar who just heard Herbie for the first time. I've been here a while, and am surprised by the responses. :scowl:

Look, I can solo just fine when needed. (Soloing wasn't the point here, voicing was.) I'm just having a real hard time getting away from pentatonic minor. I was looking for some good advice from guys who have studied and understand jazz voicings. I've been playing for 16 years and have just recently (last couple of years) gotten heavily into jazz.



Look, what Ed was saying was that if you're looking for a new scale to play in, or are tired of playing in a particular scale, you're not playing what you hear in your head. You want different sounds, but you don't hear them in your head. You don't need a new scale, you need to listen. Until it's in your ears, and your head, it'll never be in your hands.

I'm having trouble using words with more than 6 letters. How is expanding my vocabulary to encompass words of a certain complexity going to help me say what I want to say any better?

Look, what Ed was saying was that if you're looking for a new scale to play in, or are tired of playing in a particular scale, you're not playing what you hear in your head. You want different sounds, but you don't hear them in your head. You don't need a new scale, you need to listen. Until it's in your ears, and your head, it'll never be in your hands.

I'm having trouble using words with more than 6 letters. How is expanding my vocabulary to encompass words of a certain complexity going to help me say what I want to say any better?

I agree that hearing it is the key. That isn't the problem, however. I can hear it just fine, I'm just not sure what I'm hearing. I have always been able to sit and figure out tunes like teen town, and have been able to play them just fine. Theoretically, I have no idea how they work. I know it is going to take a while to re-program my thinking. When I'm playing, I can hear a "fusion" solo, but when I start to play, I intuitively fall back on the old stand-by. I guess I just haven't been able to break away because I want to know what it is I'm playing. I probably know just enough theory to be reckless, and not enough to do anything about it.

I understand that the answer isn't as simple as "play ionian" for the solo. I guess I just want to understand where it comes from when jazz and fusion guys are soloing.

Sometimes it takes a kind, selfless person to offer advise when asked for it. I see alot of bassists looking down their nose at others that seek help. It seems to be an easy ego boost for them. I know some fantastic players that had great teachers. They didn't learn everything they know by listening to Miles. Sometimes people need to be given a boost. No hand holding, just a boost.

You might enjoy the dorian mode. Natural minor scale with raised (major) 6th. This is the ii chord in Pacman's post referring to ii-V7 (Cm to F7 in Bb) vamp and plays well over both chords.

You may wish to try the minor blues scale which is a pentatonic with a b5 added (as well as a P5). At least gives you an extra tone to play with.

These two scales each give you one or two more tones to hear and incorporate into your playing vocabulary.

These are a couple of basic, simple, fun things to help you up another step.

If you want a more jazzy sound,use the mixo passing tone scale of Eb7
Eb-D-Db-C-Bb-Ab-G-F-Eb.

From there,you will get more chromatic tones then the minor Penta.

Hope this will help,
SB

The "jazzy" sound, I find, comes from the tension of not landing on the root at the end of every phrase. As bass players we feel safe on the root and often compromise (at least I do) the melodic line for the security of a well known friend. Be familiar with all of your possibilities and practice playing nonroot, nonchord, or extended chord tones over the tune's chord progression. Getting these in your ears helps you to hear the tune more melodically.

The last three posts are great. Thanks.

Look, what Ed was saying was that if you're looking for a new scale to play in, or are tired of playing in a particular scale, you're not playing what you hear in your head. You want different sounds, but you don't hear them in your head. You don't need a new scale, you need to listen. Until it's in your ears, and your head, it'll never be in your hands.

I think the crucial thing here is listening.

So - people can tell you scales - but how do you use them? Are you just running up and down scales wiggling your fingers?
I think this is what those who really know about Jazz - like Ed - are trying to avoid - they don't want to be responsible for this kind of advice...?

If you listen to Jazz players they won't be playing scales - they will be playing ideas, melodies, riffs maybe and especially on a tune like Chameleon, it is more about rhythm and syncopation rather than scales...?

Sure, if you cant hear it you really cant play it... but experimenting with different scales or notes outside of what you can hear is a part of learning to hear new things surely?

Is there really anything wrong with asking for some input, some ideas, to help find some new sounds? :hmm:

I had to actively seek out new sounds, I didnt just wake up one day and hear how I could use a #11 or b9 in a bass line. I had to see it on a chart, try it out, try and make up lines using it, figure out where it wanted to go... and, of course, I'm still doing that, still very close to the start line!

Is there anything wrong with "here, try this, see if you like it, figure out how it works?"

I guess I might be missing the point here? If so, I'd like to understand what the learning process should be if it isnt through experimentation, trying things out, seeing how they sound?

ta
H

This is an argument that has raged many times on TB!! ;)

I think the point is that many people don't like the idea that you can teach Jazz by saying - you must play this scale over this chord sequence - as there is a feeling that you will just produce robots with no ideas of their own, who all sound the same!! :hmm:

Their idea is that you should listen extensively to Jazz and hear how it's played and base you own ideas on that - OK you may analyse it later in terms of scales - but you shouldn't just be running scales up and down meaninglessly.

I've had these two seemingly contradictory approaches even from teachers at the same summer school... so tutors like Dave Cliff and Geoff Simkins who I work with regularly, are advocates of the chord scale approach - whereas I did a workshop with Simon Purcell (teaches at the Guild Hall) who was very anti this approach!!

Like you, I can't imagine not looking at what scales are available - but I appreciate the other point of view and that all the Jazz 'greats' got where they were, through listening to others and playing what they felt/heard.....?

As a PS to the above , I do detect a shift in approach - even from those "Jazz Educators" who were previously teaching the chord/scale thing.

So the view now seems to be - try to construct a meaningful solo using chord tones only - if you can't do that to your own satisfaction, then you don't need more notes (as in different scales) you just need to work more on your soloing until you get that right - only when you can do that , then look for more notes....:)


But having gone through all that as a general point - I would still stick to my previously-expressed view that Chameleon is all about the funk - and not about exotic scales!! ;)

If you can't make it groove when you solo, than adding more scales aint gonna help!!

No fear of me just running up and down the scales. I just wanted some new tones to pull from. I used to wank when I soloed. My theory is that you don't really understand "less is more" until you stumble upon it yourself.

Have you tried learning some of the solos on the recorded version? I'm suprised that no one has suggested that yet. See what notes Herbie is using! (If I remember correctly, he does some pretty warped stuff on there!)

Have you tried learning some of the solos on the recorded version? I'm suprised that no one has suggested that yet. See what notes Herbie is using! (If I remember correctly, he does some pretty warped stuff on there!)

I've gone through it a little, but I am not a big fan of keyed solos transcribed to bass. I feel like it is a different feel altogether, now if there was a trumpet solo that would be different. :D

Bruce, I think get what you mean, on some level?

I guess - because of where I'm at - I see a middle ground somewhere between 'running scales' and playing what I hear.

I mean, much of what I hear - and therefore play - is chord, scale, or key based in that I play 99% basic chord tones, written extensions, or obvious extensions... but it's not like I'm hearing scales, just that what I play often fits into a scale... I mean, most things do, give or take the odd pasing note?

I'm almost certainly the same as you and play 99% chord tones, but from discussions around here and from talking to people like Simon Purcell, I can see that there is a shift going on in Jazz education and a feeling that the whole chord/scale thing may have done more damage to aspiring players, than help...:hmm:

Yeah, my tutor at Richmond, Paul Cavatiuti (sp.), is very much taking the class down the "earn by ear, memorise the song, learn the harmony" and "forget all that clever stuff until you can play the damned song" route!

I recently read the an article on TB named 'myths about walking bass' or something like that, really good stuff, very inspiring. Nailing the changes and keeping the time is a good job, I like it :)

If someone asks for a couple of new scales because he wants to expand his playing I will honor his request. I'm not out to show him tricks and tips but to make said person aware of a couple of tones he may not be familiar with.

Of course it's a matter of hearing. Here's a new tone. Hear it. Get in into your fingers and mind. Explore with it. Learn to resolve it. Here it in the context of chord and key. Have fun with it. Make it yours.

Tone by tone and note by note is how I'm learning. There's only twelve notes and I've been studying them for 25+ years and I'm nowhere near finished. But the fun is in the journey (sometimes I wonder, Grrrr).

I mean isn't showing people stuff the reason for this section of the forum? What they do with the info given is their deal.

I mean isn't showing people stuff the reason for this section of the forum? What they do with the info given is their deal.

Given that logic about what "instruction" is - then all any teacher needs do, is throw a theory book in the general direction of any student and let them get on with it!! :hmm:

I think some people feel more responsibility to aspiring players and want to give them direction and purpose rather than just throwing scales at them...?

I think some people feel more responsibility to aspiring players and want to give them direction and purpose rather than just throwing scales at them...?

Go back and read the first few "responses" and tell me what kind of responsibility people felt. There's two conversations going on here - people trying to help the original poster, and then a conversation about music education and pedagogy. It's annoying enough that I'm unsubscribing from this thread.

Another fusion trick/cliche is to solo in the "inside-sounding" scale (Bb Dorian in this case) and finish a phrase by moving up a half-step. (So the last few notes would be in B Dorian.)

But, in general, how about just letting yourself go and hitting a few "outside" notes to see what sounds good to you? What's the worst that could happen? Experiment, my friend, experiment!!
(Sincerely trying to be helpful here.)

Go back and read the first few "responses" and tell me what kind of responsibility people felt. There's two conversations going on here - people trying to help the original poster, and then a conversation about music education and pedagogy. It's annoying enough that I'm unsubscribing from this thread.

Well I think there is a basic question that needs answering here - so if it's not working when you solo, do you need more notes...or maybe less!! :hmm:

I also think it's important how you learn - if you just take scales without any regard to listening to how they have been used in the medium, then I don't think you can hope to create a satisfying solo.

It's not two conversations - it's just two opinions about how best to answer the question and help - so I can see how just throwing randoms scales at somebody will not help, but will actaully hinder!!

That isn't the problem, however. I can hear it just fine, I'm just not sure what I'm hearing.... I guess I just want to understand where it comes from when jazz and fusion guys are soloing.

No, that IS the problem. All you are going to be doing by adding more vocabulary to that mix is just giving yourself more sounds to choose from when speaking gibberish. Unfortunately, it's still going to be gibberish. And I should know, I spoke fluent gibberish for any number of years. KRYTON - the whole thing about being a musician is hearing with enough clarity that you know what you are hearing and hav ethe wherewithal to get THAT out on your instrument with a minimum of impediment. It doesn't really matter how long you've been playing, if you don't have some rudimentary ability to identify what you're hearing when you are hearing it. Not hunting and pecking til you can find the notes, but hearing a sound and knowing, if not what the note relationships are (that's a dominant b9 in third inversion) at least WHERE they are and how they function in what you're hearing (it's these notes hear and they are pointing at that tonality). Am I coming down from "on high" with this ****? No, I been there, this is **** I had to understand and get past in order that I could start making sense when I played. You see this as saying " I'm trying to drive somewhere and that ******* won't give me dirctions." I'm saying it's more like you are asking about driving to Australia and I'm saying that ain't gonna get you anywhere since you're starting in Philly.

There are any number of fusion players and jazz players who do use the "plug and play" method of chord/scale approach for playing over changes. And that's why there are so many guys who aren't playing any wrong notes, but aren't playing any music that means anything. Soloing is not about "scales", it's about "intent". How do you hear the music, what line is trying to get out of your head and into the air?

Now, you are absolutley free to do what you want and more than welcome to do whatever the hell you want. No course of action you take is really going to affect me that much. But you say "I just want to understand where it comes from when jazz and fusion guys are soloing"; well I am a jazz guy, I've been playing in NYC for 2 years before you even picked up a bass. PAC is a jazz guy, if you go to the DB side you can hear him play (TBDB Sampler forum). Since we are doing what you say you want to be doing ( and have been doing it for quite a bit longer) why do want to be so quick to dismiss our advice? Do you want what works or what's easy?

Do you want what works or what's easy?

Yup - that's the two things going on here!! :)

I agree that hearing it is the key. That isn't the problem, however. I can hear it just fine, I'm just not sure what I'm hearing.
...
When I'm playing, I can hear a "fusion" solo, but when I start to play, I intuitively fall back on the old stand-by. I guess I just haven't been able to break away because I want to know what it is I'm playing. I probably know just enough theory to be reckless, and not enough to do anything about it.

I understand that the answer isn't as simple as "play ionian" for the solo. I guess I just want to understand where it comes from when jazz and fusion guys are soloing.

This post doesnt really make sense to me...

How are you not sure what you're hearing? Do you mean, you dont know the theory behind the harmony in that you cant explain it in terms of "an altered scale" etc? If so, that isnt what pacman etc are talking about, the name of the scale is irrelvant.. if you can "hear the music" that's all that matters.
So, if you can hear a part in your head, what stops you playing it? If as you say, you can hear these jazzy fusion solos, why cant you play them? Why do you fall back on minor pentatonic? There have been number of GREAT jazzers who coulnt explain diddly in theory terms, but they could certainly hear it!

When you say "I intuitively fall back on the old stand-by" that suggests to that you cant actually "hear" the complex sounds others are playing?

I'm not criticsing you, just trying to get to the nitty gritty.. I know for fact that I often 'fall back on the tried and test" when I play because that's what I hear!

EDIT: Yeah, Ed +1 :rolleyes:

The last three posts are great. Thanks.

I'm glad you found some answers through all the crap that is going on here!!!

SB

Thanks for saying that Ed.

It's like the line Tom Hanks had in "League of Their Own".

"If it was easy, it wouldn't be great".

To me, the odd thing about this discussion can be expressed by considering a different art: writing.
Imagine if someone said they knew how to spell and the laws of grammar, but didn't know what to write. :confused:
How can anyone possibly help with that? I'm confused.

To me, the odd thing about this discussion can be expressed by considering a different art: writing.
Imagine if someone said they knew how to spell and the laws of grammar, but didn't know what to write. :confused:
How can anyone possibly help with that? I'm confused.


That right - so the people suggesting possible scales are suggesting alternate vocabulary - which might mean using words that you don't really understand, in order to make your writing appear more erudite....?

Kind of like throwing in a quotation in French or Latin to make you sound more "educated"!! ;)

To me, the odd thing about this discussion can be expressed by considering a different art: writing.
Imagine if someone said they knew how to spell and the laws of grammar, but didn't know what to write. :confused:
How can anyone possibly help with that? I'm confused.

By helping that person try to get to the creative voice that ALL of us have inside. NOT by giving them a dictionary with more words in it. By working with them till the "laws" of grammar aren't a straightjacket, but an ocean they can swim through. Until the barrier between the page and the brain becomes non-existent. So that what that person writes not only communicates the idea that they want it to, but also gives the reader a sense of the beauty of the language, that the rhythm and pulse of what has been written joins with the meaning of the words to touch a reader emotionally.

All vocabulary is there to do is to help you express what you WANT to say. The greater/broader/deeper the vocabulary that you have in your "unconcious" (not that you memorize or go look up), the more you are able to communicate with a greater specificity WHAT it is you WANT to say. So again we get back to MEANING. Nobody participating in this thread had to go get a dictionary and memorize any more words than they had in their heads RIGHT AT THIS VERY MOMENT in order to type, right? You use the words you use every day in order to communicate. Playing is the same thing, KRYTON doesn't need to have somebody give him a list words he can use (persimmon, masticate, dead-bolt, polyhedron) he needs to work on using his current vocabulary in a meaningful way. Which means he needs to HEAR how the chord (and progression) is put together, he needs to HEAR a line in his head with enough clarity that he knows what and where the notes are. And then he needs to play what he is HEARING.

SLYBASS - all joy aside, your profile says you teach. Is it really your position that what makes, say, Sonny Rollins play any differently than KRYTON here is that Sonny knows different scales?

That right - so the people suggesting possible scales are suggesting alternate vocabulary - which might mean using words that you don't really understand, in order to make your writing appear more erudite....?

Kind of like throwing in a quotation in French or Latin to make you sound more "educated"!! ;)


Yes, and the original poster knows harmony, but needs advice on content-- what to say. If he were a beginner who wanted to know what notes sound most consonate with a certain chord, I could see giving nuts & bolts advice, without delving into aesthetics, theories of education, etc. But this is different. That's why I suggested that he should wiggle his fingers around and keep what he liked! (And, listening to all kinds of soloists would always be helpful, of course.)
Good posts from you and Ed.

Playing is the same thing, KRYTON doesn't need to have somebody give him a list words he can use (persimmon, masticate, dead-bolt, polyhedron) he needs to work on using his current vocabulary in a meaningful way. Which means he needs to HEAR how the chord (and progression) is put together, he needs to HEAR a line in his head with enough clarity that he knows what and where the notes are. And then he needs to play what he is HEARING.

Point being, if all I can hear clearly is a triad and can hear a few notes with which I can link the triads I am hearing, I can still communicate HOW I am hearing the tune we are playing in a meaningful enough way that anybody else who can actually hear will be able to interact with me musically. I can play with the vocabulary I currently use, I don't need "more bullets" to hit the target because I am actually aiming better.

Yes, and the original poster knows harmony, but needs advice on content-- what to say. If he were a beginner who wanted to know what notes sound most consonate with a certain chord, I could see giving nuts & bolts advice, without delving into aesthetics, theories of education, etc. But this is different. That's why I suggested that he should wiggle his fingers around and keep what he liked! (And, listening to all kinds of soloists would always be helpful, of course.)
Good posts from you and Ed.

Well, I disagree with your first point. I think if he "really" knew harmony, he would have fewer questions and a lot less attitude.
And the "notes sounding consonant" etc. ; it's really all part and parcel. You can talk about diatonic harmony all you want, playing in a (more or less) functional harmony world, you really can manipulate it based on what you are hearing strongly. If I'm hearing something strongly enough (not just "wiggling my fingers") it may NOT be conventionally "consonant" with the harmony, it may (in fact) imply a whole new harmony. Not by accident, not by luck, but because that's what I HEARD and that's what I MEANT.

I am trying to understand jazz and fusion voicings, and I need the help of you theory guru's. Let's use Chameleon as an example. I can play through Chameleon just fine, and I can do a good solo in Bb (or A#, whatever it is) minor pentatonic, and the people in the bar will clap, but I know it is all smoke and mirrors. I didn't grow up listening to jazz. I grew up on rock and blues. I have minor pentatonic on the brain.

Help. What are some scales or modes I can solo in (over the head section) that will sound more jazzy or fusion-like?

Thanks.

Here's the deal. A solo is a series of themes and variations. Do you know the melody, can you play it? If not, that is where you need to start. Next, you say you can hear what you want, great! If you can hear it, then sing it. Transcribe what you sing. If you feel the need you can, then, analyze, what you sang. Sing what you play/play what you sing. learn the vocabulary that way. A simple, what scale should I play, is not enough.

Mike

Is there anyway we can keep Bruce from hijacking threads and running them into the ground?

I'm amazed how quickly this thread got away from its original intent.

The bottom line is that I am a guy who was brought up playing one style of music and is now interested in understanding another. Having some theoretical and fundamental understanding of why I am going something is a good thing. I THOUGHT this would be a good place to learn. From a technical/groove/feel standpoint, I can play most guys under the table. I would like to gain some understanding in a different style of music to go along with the technical ability. If it is this tough for a 16 year veteran, I feel bad for the nOOb's.

Is there anyway we can keep Bruce from hijacking threads and running them into the ground?
.

Err - excuse me !! :hmm:

Most of my posts here have been explaining and supporting what Ed and Jon (Pacman) were saying and I was not the one who started this tack!! (there are 44 posts in this thread and I have only made a handful of them!!)

As Ed has said : you can have the easy answer or the one that works - you can't have both!! ;)

I'm sorry if you don't like that - but don't take your anger out on me!!

he would have fewer questions and a lot less attitude.

Yes, it does seem clear that I am the one with the attitude here.

I'm glad we got that straight!

Apology, grudgingly accepted!

Is there anyway we can keep Bruce from hijacking threads and running them into the ground?

I'm amazed how quickly this thread got away from its original intent.

The bottom line is that I am a guy who was brought up playing one style of music and is now interested in understanding another. Having some theoretical and fundamental understanding of why I am going something is a good thing. I THOUGHT this would be a good place to learn. From a technical/groove/feel standpoint, I can play most guys under the table. I would like to gain some understanding in a different style of music to go along with the technical ability. If it is this tough for a 16 year veteran, I feel bad for the nOOb's.

OK, then. Try the chromatic scale, the notes in that scale will work over every single chord that ever was/is/will be.

enjoy the next 16 years, "veteran".

Well, I disagree with your first point. I think if he "really" knew harmony, he would have fewer questions and a lot less attitude.
And the "notes sounding consonant" etc. ; it's really all part and parcel. You can talk about diatonic harmony all you want, playing in a (more or less) functional harmony world, you really can manipulate it based on what you are hearing strongly. If I'm hearing something strongly enough (not just "wiggling my fingers") it may NOT be conventionally "consonant" with the harmony, it may (in fact) imply a whole new harmony. Not by accident, not by luck, but because that's what I HEARD and that's what I MEANT.

Yeah, I just meant that he knew enough about harmony to use the term "minor pentatonic"; also, I was accepting his assertion that (to paraphrase) he knew what notes sounded good, but needed some advice on how to "think like a jazz musician" (my quotes).
As far as the "wiggling the fingers" thing, I was just trying to get him to be more adventurous. Clearly, he needs to find his own ideas, and having someone else tell him what to play seems absurd, to me. Being able to hear what you're going to play before you play it is a crucial key to playing musical, coherent solos, I agree with you. But I have a feeling that this guy might first need to simply loosen up and hear some random new stuff come out of his bass before he hears it in his head. (As a little push or jumpstart toward fresh ideas.)

Here's the deal. A solo is a series of themes and variations. Do you know the melody, can you play it? If not, that is where you need to start. Next, you say you can hear what you want, great! If you can hear it, then sing it. Transcribe what you sing. If you feel the need you can, then, analyze, what you sang. Sing what you play/play what you sing. learn the vocabulary that way. A simple, what scale should I play, is not enough.

Mike

Well put Mike. I have done the singing/transcribing/playing thing with some success. But, I would still like to know why the line I am singing and playing sounds good in the context. I can play the melody forward and backward in Chameleon (for example). I still have no idea why it sounds right though.

I'm not saying that I want an easy solution to the entire concept of jazz theory. I was looking for another voicing that might work with Chameleon so I could play and understand what I was playing. As a public school administrator, I am glad you guys are not applying for teaching jobs! :D

Ed & Bruce:
As punishment for your haughty jazz pomposity, you are hereby sentenced to tape your fingers together and play Sex Pistols songs until further notice! ;)

OK, then. Try the chromatic scale, the notes in that scale will work over every single chord that ever was/is/will be.

enjoy the next 16 years, "veteran".

Very classy. Oh, and I don't prefer the chromatic scale, but thanks anyway.

SLYBASS - all joy aside, your profile says you teach. Is it really your position that what makes, say, Sonny Rollins play any differently than KRYTON here is that Sonny knows different scales?

He surely does!!!

Don't forget that modern music comes from maths and it is a language and a vocabulary too.
Parker invented the bebop scale.Scale that all the great players are still basing their compositions and solos on. It is important to learn the scales because they are the most important part of the learning process of the twelve notes and how you can use them in harmony,composition and improvisation. It is a way of organising ideas and sounds from where you can hear them and use them. That is why law schools, medecine schools and music schools exist.
If not, everybody could be a doctor even without going to medecine school. I would certainly not been open by such a doctor for a brain surgery.

Peace,
SB

Err - excuse me !! :hmm:

Most of my posts here have been explaining and supporting what Ed and Jon (Pacman) were saying and I was not the one who started this tack!! (there are 44 posts in this thread and I have only made a handful of them!!)

As Ed has said : you can have the easy answer or the one that works - you can't have both!! ;)

I'm sorry if you don't like that - but don't take your anger out on me!!

Why are you shocked by my post? You are a self proclaimed inveterate dissenter! You live for this stuff.

It is a way of organising ideas and sounds from where you can hear them and use them. That is why law schools, medecine schools and music schools exist.


I'm glad you're not my teacher!! ;)

Why are you shocked by my post? You are a self proclaimed inveterate dissenter!

I don't think you should be using words like that when it's evident you don't know what they mean!! :D

And here we are back on topic!! ;)

I don't think you should be using words like that when it's evident you don't know what they mean!! :D

And here we are back on topic!! ;)

I know what they mean. Inveterate - ingrained, deep-rooted, well established, etc. Dissenter - one who disagrees with popular opinion. I guess I don't see how my response made it evident that I didn't understand those words.

Unsubscribing to my own thread. Thanks to those who were sincerely chiming in to lend some constructive information.

From a technical/groove/feel standpoint, I can play most guys under the table. I would like to gain some understanding in a different style of music to go along with the technical ability. If it is this tough for a 16 year veteran, I feel bad for the nOOb's.

So, you spent that last 16 years learning how to masturbate? Dude, I nailed that by the age of 15 :D

Seriously tho, you've been give some very practical 'fingers on frets' advice and some very relevant advice from some very knowledgable people. If I were you I'd think about what these pompous old jazzers are telling you and formulate a plan! :)

I'm glad you're not my teacher!! ;)
May I ask you why?

SB

He surely does!!!
I strongly disagree.

Don't forget that modern music comes from maths and it is a language and a vocabulary too.
Parker invented the bebop scale.Scale that all the great players are still basing their compositions and solos on. It is important to learn the scales because they are the most important part of the learning process of the twelve notes and how you can use them in harmony,composition and improvisation. Actually you transcribe Pres and others and you see that they, do a very great degree, are NOT using scales as their improvisational base. They are linking triads. In the famous interview in DOWNBEAT, Bird doesn't talk about scales, he talks about playing the upper extensions of the chords as a new harmonic progression. There's a reason players talk about progressions, harmony, re-harmonising etc. The framework is HARMONY not SCALE. ANY note can work, as long as you establish the context (and resolution path, which again implies HARMONY) for it to exist in. If you haven't already read it, I highly recommend THINKING IN JAZZ; there's a lot of anecdotal as well as analytical stuff in there. Suffice it to say, when most jazz musicians talk about improvising, SCALE is not what they talk about. Again my point is, if you can clearly hear a limited vocabulary with clarity, you can use that vocabulary in a meaningful way. This is the antithesis of the chord/scale approach.


That is why law schools, medecine schools and music schools exist.If not, everybody could be a doctor even without going to medecine school. I would certainly not been open by such a doctor for a brain surgery.Peace,
SB
I always thought music schools existed so jazz musicians didn't have to get real jobs?
Siriusly, that's some of the problenm I have with music schools. Something like ear training is so vital to being a musician, but it's something that you can skate through school on. I know, I did it. Schools, for better or worse, need to have:
1. easily quantifiable criteria
2. a program that can fit easily into a semester system

ASIDE:which is why you need other information on that doctor you go see, you don't know if he was the guy who got all A's or the guy that was hungover and asleep throughout INTRO TO BRAIN SURGERY and scraped by with a C-.

Anyway, having gone through the "music education" schtick (Berklee) and studying privately (Joe Solomon for about the last 9 years), I've found that a private teacher can be a lot more assiduous in NOT letting you skate on stuff. No C+'s, you either nail it or let's approach this from another way.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that knowing whay you are doing is a bad thing. I'm saying that knowing what you are doing is more than just having another chord/scale to play. That knowing is really just hearing with clarity, and THAT'S what one needs to work on.

As a public school administrator, I am glad you guys are not applying for teaching jobs! :D
Me, too. Cause I'd be the guy that actually wanted my students to learn how to think, not just how to score well on placement tests. Who wanted to hold back a student who needed more time to actually get the concept instead of promoting them "so our numbers look good".

From Rafe Esquith's book THERE ARE NO SHORTCUTS

"I'd like to give every young teacher some good news. Teaching is a very easy job. Administrators will tell you what to do. You'll be given books and told which chapters to assign the children. Veteran teachers will show you the correct way to fill out forms and have your classes line up.

And here's some more good news. If you do all these things badly, they let you keep doing it. You can go home at three o'clock every day. You get about three months off a year. Teaching is a great gig.

However, if you care about what you're doing, it's one of the toughest jobs around. If you care, and if your eyes are wide open, beware: your school is filled with bad guys. There are a few heroes around too (no one will point them out to you — heroes are usually unrecognized). But the bad guys can be more than just mediocre teachers or administrators, incompetent individuals who do a poor job of teaching; they'll make you sad, but at least you can focus on your own students. Some bad guys will actually go out of their way to prevent you from doing your job, even when you're minding your own business. "

Try the chromatic scale, the notes in that scale will work over every single chord that ever was/is/will be.

Dammit, Ed...I used that line on a certain guitarist last night!

I'm glad we got that straight!

Apology, grudgingly accepted!

Bruce-
You really need to have your own show.

[QUOTE=Ed Fuqua]Actually you transcribe Pres and others and you see that they, do a very great degree, are NOT using scales as their improvisational base. They are linking triads. In the famous interview in DOWNBEAT, Bird doesn't talk about scales, he talks about playing the upper extensions of the chords as a new harmonic progression. There's a reason players talk about progressions, harmony, re-harmonising etc. The framework is HARMONY not SCALE. ANY note can work, as long as you establish the context (and resolution path, which again implies HARMONY) for it to exist in. If you haven't already read it, I highly recommend THINKING IN JAZZ; there's a lot of anecdotal as well as analytical stuff in there. Suffice it to say, when most jazz musicians talk about improvising, SCALE is not what they talk about. Again my point is, if you can clearly hear a limited vocabulary with clarity, you can use that vocabulary in a meaningful way. This is the antithesis of the chord/scale approach.
QUOTE]

Great post.
To take it a step further: when you hear the really great improvisors like Bird, Pres, Wes Montgomery (one of my favorites), Miles, Clifford Brown, etc., they are creating new melodies (or "telling new stories", if you will) which arch over the changes. They can hear so well that they are transcending the chord/scale thing.
And, Booker Little once said something to the effect that he could make any note sound right, as long as he knew how to resolve it. This is in line with your correct statement, "ANY note can work, as long as you establish the context (and resolution path, which again implies HARMONY) for it to exist in."

If you haven't already read it, I highly recommend THINKING IN JAZZ; there's a lot of anecdotal as well as analytical stuff in there. Suffice it to say, when most jazz musicians talk about improvising, SCALE is not what they talk about.
Ed-
...have you heard of Arcana: Musicians On Music compiled by John Zorn?
Good book if you're interested in a compound headache. Yer boyz at the Downtown Music Gallery should stock this.
Scales? LMAO...



I always thought music schools existed so jazz musicians didn't have to get real jobs?
How do you get a 'jazz' musician off yer porch?

Pay him for the pizza.

I always thought music schools existed so jazz musicians didn't have to get real jobs?

It is funny how Americans **** on their own musical heritage!!

SB

To take it a step further: when you hear the really great improvisors like Bird, Pres, Wes Montgomery (one of my favorites), Miles, Clifford Brown, etc., they are creating new melodies (or "telling new stories", if you will) which arch over the changes. They can hear so well that they are transcending the chord/scale thing.
And, Booker Little once said something to the effect that he could make any note sound right, as long as he knew how to resolve it. This is in line with your correct statement, "ANY note can work, as long as you establish the context (and resolution path, which again implies HARMONY) for it to exist in."

THAT'S what I'm talking about. Only I thought it was Eddie Harris that said that?

It is funny how Americans **** on their own musical heritage!!SB
It's cause the blues comes from inside you;given a harsh reality you can either laugh or cry.
Chief, I think you and me need to sit down and have a serious discussion. We can either explore the dialectic or we can devolve to sniping about stupid ****, but I got no interest in doing the latter. You want to swap CVs, we can do that too.

It's cause the blues comes from inside you;given a harsh reality you can either laugh or cry.
Chief, I think you and me need to sit down and have a serious discussion. We can either explore the dialectic or we can devolve to sniping about stupid ****, but I got no interest in doing the latter. You want to swap CVs, we can do that too.

The only thing I wanted to do here was to help somebody who was asking a question about ideas to explore on a specific groove.
It turned out to be about schooling is bad for musicians. Which is totally off.
End of my presence here.

PS Some of you should start threads in the humor or misc forum instead of General instruction.

Ok, I think we're done here.
thanks everyone!


Chris A. :rolleyes: :bassist: