In your interview you stated that church musicianship is pretty low. I've actually had the opposite experience. Some of the best musicians I've ever heard and met were in church. Also a lot of the guys who I will play secular gigs or sessions with who are awesome musicians either cut their teeth at church and/or still play at church. As a private instructor I found that musicianship was about the same for my students who wanted to play at church or who wanted to play else where. I do understand that at a lot of churches the musicianship is not up to a modern day J.S. Bach but is that just the church or musicianship in general?
Dale

In your interview you stated that church musicianship is pretty low. I've actually had the opposite experience. Some of the best musicians I've ever heard and met were in church. Also a lot of the guys who I will play secular gigs or sessions with who are awesome musicians either cut their teeth at church and/or still play at church. As a private instructor I found that musicianship was about the same for my students who wanted to play at church or who wanted to play else where. I do understand that at a lot of churches the musicianship is not up to a modern day J.S. Bach but is that just the church or musicianship in general?
Dale

Hi Dale,

Hey, thanks for your comments! Actually, I know a bunch of phenomenal "church musicians" etc. ....and there are churches full of them.....THANKFULLY!!!:hyper: Can I get an AMEN?!

But, I also hear/see a TON of folks......who mean well.....but are lacking in preparation.....practice....musicianship skills etc. They're not bringing their best "offering" to the alter....know what I mean?? That's my frustration....The praise choruses etc. are really stuck in a rut....I'm dying to hear better song writing....some better harmony.... To me, so much of the music has been dumbed down to the point that it's really frustrating.

God has given us a HUGE smorgasboard of harmony, styles, grooves etc. It's a shame we don't take advantage of more of it on a regualr basis.

and......like you said....it's not just the church, but musicianship skills in general are down....across the board. Mediocrity is not only rewarded.....it's cherished and celebrated.

But, as Christians, we are called to a higher standard.....at least the way I understand it....I don't mean to be preachy here, OK.....But we're called to bring GOD our best.

I realize we all fall short........we're imperfect creatures....we're definitely "flawed".....well, I am anyway!!:help:

Hey, I don't mean to be so negative.....please don't misunderstand me.... There is also some great music out there that glorifies God......in a variety of styles.....I guess I wish there were more of it.

Hey, one of my missions in life is to try to help educate bass players (specifically) to become better musicians.....and hopefully they'll glorify God with their talents.

Plus, this is just my humble opinion......and my experience.

I'm thrilled to know that you're using your talents to glorify God through your music and your teaching.

Thanks again for your insightful comments!

I completely agree, Todd. There needs to be a spirit of excellence in the church. Just because we're playing at our local sanctuary and not at Madison Square Garden doesn't mean we shouldn't give our best. The church used to be home to the most cutting edge music in the world, and now we're often stuck following the mainstream.

I'm with you on this one too Todd. The music is the only part of church I don't like (I myself don't play there). The odd thing is the musicians at the church I attend are actually very good, they are just playing poorly written music.

I find that a lot of the church music we are playing are really simple compositions. Sometimes that allows you to embellish things a bit, or sometimes, you end up thumping roots for ten minutes. I really don't mean to insult the writer's inspiration, but I would love to hear some new stuff. I like getting a challenge when learning new stuff.

I consider myself lucky that I play in a church where experimentation with our sound is encouraged. What I find discouraging is that it seems like "church" music seems to be 5-10 years behind the curve.

I dunno. None of that changes the fact that I strive to bring everything I have to playing there, but it does tend to frustrate me sometimes.

I consider myself lucky that I play in a church where experimentation with our sound is encouraged. What I find discouraging is that it seems like "church" music seems to be 5-10 years behind the curve.

I dunno. None of that changes the fact that I strive to bring everything I have to playing there, but it does tend to frustrate me sometimes.

This is the situation I face. Unfortunately, due to the deacon/elder situation in my church, we are sometimes discouraged from changing things too much. Sometimes we liven up an old standard, which is fun. But we have had some scowls on some occasions. Sometimes it's not worth the fight to play some music rather than have some stubbron church leaders gunning for you. It's unfortunate how politics seems to infect almost everything.

I think the main thing for all of us to focus on (musically speaking) is trying to constantly improve as musicians.....to bring God our best effort......not just settle for being good enough to play the songs we're asked to play....but make a real effort to maximize our talents and to realize our potential...to master our instruments to the point where we don't have technical things getting in the way of our ability to communicate musically to our audience (the congregation etc,) .....or get in the way of our "worship".

I know this is what I'm striving for anyway......

I'm happy to say that I'm at the point where I can play what I hear (at least a large majority of the time anyway....;) ) and it's really a blessing.

.....it has really helped me feel a much deeper sense of "expressing myself.....worshiping through music.

..... it makes improvising or soloing so much more intimate.....so much more expressive if I can play what I'm hearing or feeling at a given moment.

....rather than thinking about a "scale" or a "fingering" or "what key are we in???",....or...... "where's one???" Ha! :D You get my point.....

I'm so blessed to have the opportunity to play in a "jazz praise" context with my good friends Jim Martinez and Kristin Korb.....It's great to play jazz arrangements of hymns....hear the words and melodies....and THEN.....be able to express my "worship" in a solo. As long as my heart is right, then it's a beautiful thing!!:hyper:

I've got a hunch this what you're all striving for too.

Keep up the good work.......:bassist:

Well done, good and faithful servants!!!

i play at my church and i have been playing there since i started playing bass three years ago. over that time i have seen the musical ability of myself and everyone else grow greatly. we are at the point where we always know what the other people are thinking and we can just go with the way that we feel lead by the holy sperit. i LOVE playing at church because it keeps me on my feet and i learn something new every sunday that i play.

we always do songs different than others do, we do stuff in different keys and change the timings and everything. the only stuff that we keep is basicly the words. some of the songs that we do are ones that some of us have written.

lowsound

I just got back from practice tonight, and I really had a good night. There were a couple of rough spots, but we were pretty good tonight. I was fiddling around with a pedal of mine, and I got some good grind out of it that I have never heard before. One of our guitarists wasn't there, and I had to strive to fill out the spaces. Really pushed me a bit to improve. I did a bit of soloing, and I know I need improvement. It was fun.

i play at my church and i have been playing there since i started playing bass three years ago. over that time i have seen the musical ability of myself and everyone else grow greatly. we are at the point where we always know what the other people are thinking and we can just go with the way that we feel lead by the holy sperit. i LOVE playing at church because it keeps me on my feet and i learn something new every sunday that i play.

we always do songs different than others do, we do stuff in different keys and change the timings and everything. the only stuff that we keep is basicly the words. some of the songs that we do are ones that some of us have written.

lowsound

iamlowsound,

Cool........sounds like you're in a productive, creative environment. Well done.

Keep up the good work!

Well part of the problem (at our church at least) is that many of the more 'senior' members of the congregation are resitant to change, which is a shame. But, as one pointed out to us, they have put up with a lot of change over their lifetime.

Oh yes, and general songwriting (as in lyrics) is pretty awful, they like use the same phrases in songs; just because it's for God, doesn't mean it has to avoid problems.

this thread seems like it has been taken straight from my thoughts... the poor compositions, the elders objecting to change, the low level of musicianship... i face each of these problems at church each week. i used to let it bother me, but now i realise that i am playing to glorify Jesus and the talents he has given me.

i'm not there to prove a point to anyone; and only one other person on the music team is actually trying to improve as musicians; but so what? coz now i realise that i am playing to glorify Jesus and the talents he has given me.

:) :bassist:

The modern worship style...ie Chris Tomlin, Lincoln Brewster, David Crowder and the passion movement is what the young basses going after.. I'm lucky at our church that our pastor is a guitar player and he's really into the modern worship sounds. So, we are changing with the style and the older basses just have to change with times and take more lessons.

We are going to have continue training from Church bass instruction ie. Norm Stockton for our bass players...:D

Todd...are you available??:help:

Ah, the debate continues. At my church we are continually walking the line between excellence vs. perfection and worship vs. performance. It's a fine line but I think that churches need to have a bar set in terms of ability. It does not have to be set high but there should be some basic requirements.I will not ever question anyone's heart but there should be a standard for worship music and musicians. God deserves our best at all times. Some churches actually have criteria in place where you must spend time in children's worship, adult ministries where worship is needed before you step into sanctuary worship. All the while your sort of training for the day when you can move into the sanctuary. I agree with this sort of approach. Some musical backround and ability shouldbe a requirement. Mediocrity should never be the norm for a church interested in reaching out to people. Todd, great to have you at TB. How about a trip to Milwaukee for a clinic??

this thread seems like it has been taken straight from my thoughts... the poor compositions, the elders objecting to change, the low level of musicianship... i face each of these problems at church each week. i used to let it bother me, but now i realise that i am playing to glorify Jesus and the talents he has given me.

i'm not there to prove a point to anyone; and only one other person on the music team is actually trying to improve as musicians; but so what? coz now i realise that i am playing to glorify Jesus and the talents he has given me.

:) :bassist:

ras1983,

You've got it EXACTLY right...do your work for the Lord, rather than for men!!

We should encourage each other to continually strive for excellence...with integrity. It's really that simple.

It's tough sometimes, but God never promised it would be easy.

Keep up the good work!

The modern worship style...ie Chris Tomlin, Lincoln Brewster, David Crowder and the passion movement is what the young basses going after.. I'm lucky at our church that our pastor is a guitar player and he's really into the modern worship sounds. So, we are changing with the style and the older basses just have to change with times and take more lessons.

We are going to have continue training from Church bass instruction ie. Norm Stockton for our bass players...:D

Todd...are you available??:help:


Hman,

Good for you.......but be nice to the "older" bass players.....I AM ONE! HA!;)

I'm definitely available if you should need my services. Let me know how I can serve you.

Ah, the debate continues. At my church we are continually walking the line between excellence vs. perfection and worship vs. performance. It's a fine line but I think that churches need to have a bar set in terms of ability. It does not have to be set high but there should be some basic requirements.I will not ever question anyone's heart but there should be a standard for worship music and musicians. God deserves our best at all times. Some churches actually have criteria in place where you must spend time in children's worship, adult ministries where worship is needed before you step into sanctuary worship. All the while your sort of training for the day when you can move into the sanctuary. I agree with this sort of approach. Some musical backround and ability shouldbe a requirement. Mediocrity should never be the norm for a church interested in reaching out to people. Todd, great to have you at TB. How about a trip to Milwaukee for a clinic??

Sanch,

I'd love to come to Milwaukee. I'm going to be in Chicago and Indianapolis at the end of March .....first of April. Drop me a note off list....maybe we can put something together since I'll be that close.

Cool...:cool:

I'm so blessed to have the opportunity to play in a "jazz praise" context with my good friends Jim Martinez and Kristin Korb.....It's great to play jazz arrangements of hymns....hear the words and melodies....and THEN.....be able to express my "worship" in a solo. As long as my heart is right, then it's a beautiful thing!!:hyper:

I have been wanting to do this exact same thing for years, but where I am (geographically and musically) it seems that it won't happen soon. Have you heard Grant Green's "Feelin the Spirit"?

I am happy to have stumbled on this thread. The musicianship in our church is really poor. Its not even for a lack of talent. Its primarily due to the personalities of the two worship leaders. It bothers me, but I don't really know what can be done about it.

I'm glad to know that I'm not the only one.

God Bless all of your services and worship ministries....and please pray for mine!

You know, I've been in a situation where the church emphasized musical excellence to the point where neither I (the leader) nor the band was really able to worship. Now the band had been introduced to Christianity that way... I wasn't. Of course, most of the band were professionals who probably wouldn't be in the building otherwise... I ended up being fired because I refused to keep the complexity at a level where we couldn't worship. After all, what's the purpose of church if not worship?

Anyway, I'm now leading in a church where they have a slightly lower musical standard, and it's a great deal better for me. I like to be able to shift the mechanics of playing into the background and just worship. The funny thing? This band grooves better and sounds more powerful (IMHO), and they're all amateurs! It's interesting how God works.

For what it's worth, I do think that it's our responsibility to present God our best offering, but if our offering of praise isn't sufficient, no offering of musical complexity is going to make up for it.

Bottom line- people should never come to church for the music, IMHO. If that's what brings them initially, awesome. But if you keep going week after week just to hear some incredible band and keep getting annoyed by that annoying talking in the middle, I think priorities are out of whack. As musicians, we just have to be really in tune with God and really know what's going to draw others into worship, and what will detract from it.

I am also really happy to have stumbled upon this thread.

I see the heart here above all else. I see people wanting to worship God; to give Him the adoration, praise, and experience intimacy in some effort to show our appreciation for all He has done and continues to do. I see people that recognize that God as the source, that He has given us both talent and insight; may wisdom be the result.

I happen to attend a church that is known for it's level of musicianship. We tend to use an amalgamation of tunes to help lead people in worship through music; we also use songs like John Mayer's "Daughters" to help illustrate a particular topic about boundaries, etc. Now I realize that people should never come to church for the music, but I do also realize that we are subject to countless temptation as humans and accountability is key. I do not think there really is one magical response to this. I for one just want God to be known, to be praised, to be glorified. If that means playing Third Day, or "It Is Well", or whatever, for people to encounter the Truth, the Living God...I'm up for it.

I happen to attend a church that is known for it's level of musicianship. We tend to use an amalgamation of tunes to help lead people in worship through music; we also use songs like John Mayer's "Daughters" to help illustrate a particular topic about boundaries, etc. Now I realize that people should never come to church for the music, but I do also realize that we are subject to countless temptation as humans and accountability is key. I do not think there really is one magical response to this. I for one just want God to be known, to be praised, to be glorified. If that means playing Third Day, or "It Is Well", or whatever, for people to encounter the Truth, the Living God...I'm up for it.
This is exactly the situation I was in at my previous church. Every week we would do a special song from the radio that applied to the sermon, and we would do it as close to the radio version as possible. The first week I came in to hear the group, they did a tune by U2. The next week when I started, they were doing Third Day. In their repetiore, they had some Jewel, some Elton John, and all sorts of other songs that required a great deal of rehearsal. Again, since they were all pros, they were able to play the music in one hour's worth of rehearsal, which was cool, but I couldn't do that and still worship.

I was too concerned about playing my parts accurately to keep up with the hired guns, and ultimately, I realized that they were only concerned with playing their parts as well. Essentially, we were showing up for a Sunday morning performance every week.

I envy the folks who are good enough that they can perform complex music and worship through it. I'm too perfection oriented to do it. I've gotten better, but I'm now always sensitive to the fact that not everyone will be able to play hard songs and worship. My job is not only to lead the congregation, but to lead the praise band in worship.

It's a tough job, frankly. I don't envy the pastor. How he can worship while he's preaching is beyond me. But he does.

just thought that i might mention this, i guess that around here my playing for worship has gotten noticed because last week i got an email asking my to fill in for a bass player on a worship team for a saturday conferance. we praticed for about an hour before the first service and and hour between the two and everything went well. they loved my playing :) and said that it really added

lowsound

Hey Todd!

Great to see this thread. Still playing w/ Ronnie and Kendall? Last time I saw you was at Kikuya. I loved what you were doing with the six and the Hammond patch. Very musical!!

I play at church every week here in Orange County, CA. I feel it is my duty to give back to God and give thanks for the talent he has given me. I never ask for pay as I have a good job. This is my ministry.

I see talented players, most always they are the "hired guns" groovin, flowing in the moment, worshiping. More often though, I see players struggling, faces buried in charts, and being uptight and disconected. For me, studying jazz theory has set me free. Because of this, I am always ready for the "spirit lead" section to take over. Fortunatly, the two regular churches I play give me total freedom to play what I feel. They actually encourage it. I am really lucky for that! I have been in other church situations where the leader is totaly hung up on "playing it the way it is on the record". I guess that's cool, they just want the worship to be good.

Bottom line, I do agree with Todd that overall the music is tired and very expected and the level of play is lower than it should be. To me, it should be the best that could be! After all , it's the most important gig you can do. You are there to help lead worship to our Father and Lord of all!

Bottom line, I do agree with Todd that overall the music is tired and very expected and the level of play is lower than it should be. To me, it should be the best that could be! After all , it's the most important gig you can do. You are there to help lead worship to our Father and Lord of all!
To play devil's advocate (pardon the pun), though, it's not like God's going to be impressed by the fancy music. :hiding: At least not any more impressed than He would be by a fancy suit or a fancy church building.

It's all about the heart, isn't it? Whether you're playing an out of tune piano to a congregation of 6 or if you're leading a 100 piece orchestra to a congregation of 10,000... all that matters is where your heart is at. We just have to remember that.

Of course, I'm horrible about this. I suppose I consider anything at a lower quality than my church to be "not good enough" and anything better than my church to be "too focused on the music". :p I guess that's the musician's ego that I have to work hard to keep at bay.

Yeah, that's a two way street for sure. But I think thats a cop out though, seems I hear that from people that are not that talented.

I just think the music and musicanship should be as good as it can be, that's all.

Great post!

I have played in Church on and off for over 20 years. During that time, the present level of a person's musicianship has never been too much of a concern to me as long as the person had an understanding of the basics and did not "ruin" the songs. However, a person's devotion to God and his or her level of commitment to practice were two of the most important factors.

Some of the most horrid experiences I had while playing in Church were with musicians who treated the opportunity as a "gig", but did not care about the things of God in their personal lives and/or did not feel the need to practice regularly.

Also, I believe we need to separate the musicianship expectations of the average Sunday morning Church band, in which most cases the musicians are playing for the love of God and the musical setting is free, and the professional Church or Christian band, in which musical setting is not free and/or the musicians are paid.

Not everyone who plays in the average Sunday morning Church band is, or has the talent to become, a professional musician. However, if the person is using his or her musical abilities 100% from the heart to glorify God, I believe the Lord is very well pleased.

Ted

Well you have to look at it like this I think...look at the world and the Universe you occupy. It is the most amazing creation you can imagine. It's beauty comes from an imaginative and creative God. Therefore you should use your talents and creativity to the best of your ability to glorify God. Settling is wrong and wasting your talents is not showing your appreciation in my opinion. It is possible to play the most incredible music ever heard and worship God at the same time. The first people mentioned in the bible to be inspired by God were artists and musicians. I am no longer playing at Church for the moment because the leader would always say "We are playing for God so don't worry about getting the music right" and I feel that is completely wrong. He also likes playing secular music during offering, which I feel is an affront to God, not to mention being in a secular band that he plays in late Saturday nights etc. It's good to see many others in here have the exact same opinion as I do on these things. I've seen so much complacency I thought I was the only one.
Just be sure that you're playing for God's glory and not your own glory. And if you're leading the team, you also have to consider the motivations of your team members. It's tough for us musicians - ego is almost taught to us as an extra open string - EADGEgo, I think... lol...

Just out of curiosity, what do you mean by "playing secular music during offering"? Was he literally singing and performing secular songs? Was he just playing recognizable tunes without vocals (I used to do that back when I was young and insensitive and thought it was funny)?

I'm a strong believer in God using anything to His glory - regardless of its original intent. A good example is the band ApologetiX (http://www.apologetix.com). They're a Christian parody band, and they lead more people to Christ than I can hardly believe. Yes, they're playing music written by Metallica and The Rolling Stones and even System of a Down. But they lyrics are rewritten and the songs are retaken for God.

I know some great Christian friends who play in secular rock bands. Obviously, they're not singing about sex, drugs, death, etc, but they're certainly not specifically singing about Jesus in any song. They do, however, get to talk to all sorts of non-Christians before and after their shows, and are a great witness that way.

I think if a secular song can be "retaken" for God, then by all means use it during the service, if that's appropriate. I went to a church a week before Christmas that featured renditions of "White Christmas" and "I Saw Mommy Kissin' Santa Clause". I have issues with that. But I also once attended a church that did a version of "Every Breath You Take" from God's perspective. Very moving.

And of course, I love to add recognizable intros to praise songs. I've used "Joker" by Steve Miller Band, "Thunderstruck" by AC/DC, "Smoke on the Water," "Semi-Charmed Life," "We Got the Funk"... We even used "Ants Marching" by Dave Matthews Band behind "Lord I Lift Your Name On High". Reclaimed for the kingdom, baby. :D

Check out a book called "The Heart of the Artist". It addresses alot of the issues that people have brought up in this thread. It's by a musician named Rory Noland. I found that book through someone at churchbass, I don't even remember who it was.


Chris A.:rolleyes: :bassist:

Interesting thread. I play in church and agree with Todd on the chorus "composition", ouch can you even call it that? I think the songs we do best are actually the ones we rework, whether restructuring harmony or ignoring intro's or endings.

I also think that it is not about, just the heart. The heart is the number one aspect, however distinguishing and understanding our roles in the body are important too. If I were the second best bassist in our church and the hearts were of equal service desire, I would take a secondary role. It does not mean I wouldn't play, just take a reduced role. I for one would hate to attend a fellowship of well intentioned people that were not gifted in Music, Preaching, Teaching or any other role you can insert into this analogy.

I'm really glad this thread is getting some action. It seemed it sat slow for a short while at first (may have just felt that way to me...).


[SUBSCRIBE]

Jared I was so tired last night I thought your last post was directed toward mine. I decided not to reply to it last night thinking you would realize your post did not deal with a single issue in mine and that you would delete yours by morning. Sleep deprivation is a funny thing as the meocentric (things always revolve around self) model seems to have shed its skin last night and I can plainly see you did not lose it. Your post just was not a reply to mine. I awoke with clarity and it makes me laugh that I could tire to the point where I could not follow a thread.

How do you "Retake" a secular song? Isn't there enough honest work out there to utilize? Me personally? I'm against it. Secular rock music is all about worldly values. I don't think there is any need to try and retake a song just because you happen to like it. An example I can name happened just this week. They played Rod Stewart's "have I told you lately that I love you?" Not cool in my book. And in fact the music leader I am referring to DOES sing about sex etc. in his secular band on the weekends. A little too much for me.

Also if you think you are playing for "your glory" in a church setting then you are probably more sad than can be described. I don't think any "glory" you can get in that situation is worth sacrificing your values for. I get really perturbed when people suggest that's what's going on just because I believe in playing quality music. Usually the people that say that (not referring to you) can't play for crap and use that against people who can.

Thanks for the tip on the book Chris I just ordered it.
I've played with many musicians whose only concern was to sound good. They didn't care how a song might affect the congregation, they didn't care if it led others into worship. All they cared about is that it "sounded cool"... Heck, I have to battle with that aspect in myself.

As musicians, don't we all want to sound great? Don't we all want to make beautiful music? To touch others? To impress? Now comes the distinction - are we trying to make ourselves look better or to glorify God? It's hard, folks. It's tough to swallow our own pride - the pride that drives almost every one of us to some extent.

I think that Christians do all sorts of things as Christians that may not be inherently "Christian". Christians play "secular" sports, watch "secular" movies, eat "secular" food, and even sing "secular" songs... but as long as they aren't contrary to the teachings of the Bible, I don't see that it's a big problem.

Now I am a bit of a purist when it comes to worship services. If you're going to be using secular music there, you better have a darned good reason, and it better be pretty obvious.

I'll have more later. :bassist:

It takes a lot of time and energy to do this, but I think that if a bassist, or any other musician, feels called to play in church, it's well worth while to visit a number of churches beforehand and try to find one where the music is happening at the right level for what you want to do. Talk to the worship leaders/ministers of music/whatever title, and find out all you can on the front end. If you find something that seems like a good fit, then start attending that church and observe how the music works there. If it still feels good to you, and the quality and the worship experience is there for you, then give playing in the band there a shot if you have that opportunity. Don't rush into getting involved- take your time and find the right place.

Probably a lot of us have gotten involved in the wrong church's band, and it's just not going to work out. You do have to give it some time to decide this for sure. There are so many factors- some churches will work for you, and many won't.

There is a balance to be achieved between excellence and worship. It's important for the worship leader to make it clear to anyone who plays that there are standards, just like other music organizations, and that anyone who plays should be able to meet those standards. On the other hand, the leader needs to teach the musicians about the worship experience and train them to be both better musicians and better worship leaders. It's hard to do.

I think the number one enemy of good worship music at church is a lack of commitment of time. A lot of the people I've worked with stay too busy with work and family and don't dedicate themselves to 1) being better musicians 2) learning the music for church and 3) rehearsal time for church.

In my church, I really like our worship leader. She's been doing it full-time for going on a year, still has a lot to learn in a number of areas, particularly communication, but in general is getting the balance, mentioned above, together. However, I see most of the musicians on the team just not putting enough time into it.

Some of our best musicians are college students. In spite of their study schedules, these kids are really enjoying being musicians, and are glad to have the chance to play at church. And it shows.

We also have some adults that just lame around. Unfortunately, our worship leader isn't at a point where she either asks people to step down if they are just not getting it together, or she works with them to improve their musicianship. A good thing is that we are encouraged to pick the weekends we want to play on, and the better musicians have gravitated toward each others' weekends.

Just a sampling- I know that any of us here who have any tenure at all with our current worship teams could share a ton of insights. I'll add more to this later.

I have been wanting to do this exact same thing for years, but where I am (geographically and musically) it seems that it won't happen soon. Have you heard Grant Green's "Feelin the Spirit"?

I am happy to have stumbled on this thread. The musicianship in our church is really poor. Its not even for a lack of talent. Its primarily due to the personalities of the two worship leaders. It bothers me, but I don't really know what can be done about it.

I'm glad to know that I'm not the only one.

God Bless all of your services and worship ministries....and please pray for mine!


Hi Chad,

Sorry, but I don't know the Grant Green tune. Bummer.....I'll have to check it out sometime.

We should all be praying for each others music ministries and worship teams. ABSOLUTELY!!!!

Just keep working hard at improving yourself as a "believer" and as a musician. That's really all we can do......or control so to speak. All the other stuff is really out of our hands when you get right down to it. That simplifies things for me anyway.

Thanks again for your post!

Hey Todd!

Great to see this thread. Still playing w/ Ronnie and Kendall? Last time I saw you was at Kikuya. I loved what you were doing with the six and the Hammond patch. Very musical!!

I play at church every week here in Orange County, CA. I feel it is my duty to give back to God and give thanks for the talent he has given me. I never ask for pay as I have a good job. This is my ministry.

I see talented players, most always they are the "hired guns" groovin, flowing in the moment, worshiping. More often though, I see players struggling, faces buried in charts, and being uptight and disconected. For me, studying jazz theory has set me free. Because of this, I am always ready for the "spirit lead" section to take over. Fortunatly, the two regular churches I play give me total freedom to play what I feel. They actually encourage it. I am really lucky for that! I have been in other church situations where the leader is totaly hung up on "playing it the way it is on the record". I guess that's cool, they just want the worship to be good.

Bottom line, I do agree with Todd that overall the music is tired and very expected and the level of play is lower than it should be. To me, it should be the best that could be! After all , it's the most important gig you can do. You are there to help lead worship to our Father and Lord of all!

Hey, who is this??? I know it's one of about 10 friends of mine in Orange County that are Christian bass players. Drop me a note and let me know. Cool!!!!

Anxious to know who this is!:hyper:

I met you over at Kikuya's when you were doing a gig with Ronnie Eschte Trio. My name is JR Rodgers and my buddy I was there with at the gig was a student of Ronnies when he was at the GIT in LA.

We emailed several times afterward and I talked to you about lessons but you were out in Saugus , and thats a jount from the OC, we just never hooked up. I study now with Baba Elefante, remember him from LA Bass Exchange?

Hi Friends,

Dkerwood...orionmanmatt...iamsolowsound...xqusemwu ah... T-Funk... Jared Morante...ChrisA...ii-v...matthew e wengerd...michael vee.....

First of all, thanks to all of you for sharing your hearts and your passion for Christ and for the music we play for Him!

Man, I go on the road for a few days and you guys took the ball and ran with it.!!! COOL!!!:cool:

There's a bunch of good information from all of you.....I LOVE the integrity you're all bringing to your worship teams too!!!

WELL DONE, GOOD AND FAITHFUL SERVANTS!!! :D

2 things I'd like to add/comment:

1. ChrisA recommended "The Heart of the Artist" by Rory Noland. I would like to second that......IMHO every Christian musician and worship leader should read and study this book. It has been a tremendous blessing to me. I recently read it cover to cover and am now going through it slowly and working on the study program. BRILLIANT work!!

2. I recently read a quote that said " Music is God's gift to us here on earth.....but music is the only earthly gift we'll take to heaven".

So next to learning and investing in God's word.....loving my neighbor as myself......what more noble investment could there be than investing in our ability to worship God through music!!??? It's a wise investment of our time and talents......to put it mildly!! Can I get an AMEN!? :)

I really appreciate everyone's postitve contributions!

I met you over at Kikuya's when you were doing a gig with Ronnie Eschte Trio. My name is JR Rodgers and my buddy I was there with at the gig was a student of Ronnies when he was at the GIT in LA.

We emailed several times afterward and I talked to you about lessons but you were out in Saugus , and thats a jount from the OC, we just never hooked up. I study now with Baba Elefante, remember him from LA Bass Exchange?


JR,

Hey, thanks for getting back to me.

You're in great hands with Baba Elephante! He's a monster player/teacher and a sweet, sweet man. Please tell him I said "hi".

Cool....:cool:

Cool Todd, you da man!:bassist:

Cool Todd, you da man!:bassist:

NO.....YOU DA MAN:hyper:

This is coming from the FWIW column, but I have been doing worship at a fairly large church for a while now, and I have dealt with the issues mentioned here on and off most of that time. We produce for television all that kind of stuff, but mostly the worship leader is just the kind of personality that wants an extremely well-polished and overall high quality "production" at every service. I respect that and mostly appreciate it, but is has gotten in the way spiritually for me more than once.

So, after a lot of praying and counsel, I have really come to a place that is comfortable for me that makes the balance between "worship" and musical excellence an easy one to manage. It's a personal thing and everyone will have to settle up with God about it in their own way.

For me, I am fortunate in that I have been doing it long enough to not let the "fly by the seat of your pants" nature of live worship get in the way for me. I have learned and adapted, so now, the predictably unpredictable nature of Sunday mornings is just the way things are. It doesn't bother me. It is actually kind of fun, and IME, the unplanned elements often are more worshipful.

Personally, I don't mind the simplicity of some of the worship music. For a couple of reasons:

1. Some of the simple stuff has been what I have really seen inspire worship in the congregations. Tomlin's "How Great Is Our God" is about as simple as it gets. Nonetheless, it is a powerful worship song.

2. The simple stuff is often the opportunity for me to personally have a Holy Spirit interaction right then and there as part of the worship experience.

But, I don't limit my concept of worship to those types of experiences.

We also do stuff that is fairly challenging for me technically. It is not uncommon for me to be in a position that because of either the technical level of the tune or the level of preparedness, I am extremely focused on "performing" and playing excellently. The most commonly viewed concept of worship is nowhere on my mind.

That said, I have no problems at all with being that way. Here's where I am with it:

Leading worship is about facilitating congregational worship as well as personal worship. If my efforts are contributing, I see it as honoring God.

So what if I am riveted to a chart or totally engrossed in keeping my head ahead of my fingers. If God is using that message in song to move in the life of another person, I am blessed to be piece of that tool.

I could rant forever, but I will stop. It's Todd's forum afterall.

Thanks Todd.






As for the book "The Heart of the Artist," I also recommend it. We went through it as a worship team a while back. There are some excellent discussion points in it.

Leading worship is about facilitating congregational worship as well as personal worship. If my efforts are contributing, I see it as honoring God.

That was articulated very well! Man, do I know those moments. I think it echoes what Jared has mentioned with respect to preparedness and responsibility. For to whom much has been given, much is expected (see the Parable of the Talents).

While I don't have the instruction or the experience that many of you on this forum do, I bust my butt to try and learn, grow, and be as prepared as possible so that I am bringing my best to the table every time. I've found it does a few things for me: it allows me to worship BECAUSE I am prepared, not in spite of it; it teaches me about character, obedience, and responsibility, three things I feel God has for His children if they follow Him; and it makes me a better player. The more I learn, the more I am able to translate what my heart wants to respond with. My songwriting grows and with it I am able to bring everything I can offer.

Charles, I don't have a thing to say that could do anything but take away from your post. Well spoken.:)

For me, I am fortunate in that I have been doing it long enough to not let the "fly by the seat of your pants" nature of live worship get in the way for me. I have learned and adapted, so now, the predictably unpredictable nature of Sunday mornings is just the way things are. It doesn't bother me. It is actually kind of fun, and IME, the unplanned elements often are more worshipful.


This is so, so true. I feel exactly the same way. Well said!!

What Chasarms said!!!!!!

+1

This is coming from the FWIW column, but I have been doing worship at a fairly large church for a while now, and I have dealt with the issues mentioned here on and off most of that time. We produce for television all that kind of stuff, and mostly the worship leader is just the kind of personality that wants an extremely well-polished and overall high quality "production" at every service. I respect that and mostly appreciate it, but is has gotten in the way spiritually for me more than once.

So, after a lot of praying and counsel, I have really come to a place that is comfortable for me that makes the balance between "worship" and musical excellence an easy one to manage. It's a personal thing and everyone will have to settle up with God about it in their own way.

For me, I am fortunate in that I have been doing it long enough to not let the "fly by the seat of your pants" nature of live worship get in the way for me. I have learned and adapted, so now, the predictably unpredictable nature of Sunday mornings is just the way things are. It doesn't bother me. It is actually kind of fun, and IME, the unplanned elements often are more worshipful.

Personally, I don't mind the simplicity of some of the worship music. For a couple of reasons:

1. Some of the simple stuff has been what I have really seen inspire worship in the congregations. Tomlin's "How Great Is Our God" is about as simple as it gets. Nonetheless, it is a powerful worship song.

2. The simple stuff is often the opportunity for me to personally have a Holy Spirit interaction right then and there as part of the worship experience.

But, I don't limit my concept of worship to those types of experiences.

We also do stuff that is fairly challenging for me technically. It is not uncommon for me to be in a position that because of either the technical level of the tune or the level of preparedness, I am extremely focused on "performing" and playing excellently. The most commonly viewed concept of worship is nowhere on my mind.

That said, I have no problems at all with being that way. Here's where I am with it:

Leading worship is about facilitating congregational worship as well as personal worship. If my efforts are contributing, I see it as honoring God.

So what if I am riveted to a chart or totally engrossed in keeping my head ahead of my fingers. If God is using that message in song to move in life of another person, I am blessed to be piece of that tool.

I could rant forever, but I will stop. It's Todd's forum afterall.

Thanks Todd.






As for the book "The Heart of the Artist," I also recommend it. We went through it as a worship team a while back. There are some excellent discussion points in it.


++++++++++1

I also have found the value in simplicity and taking it as it comes. We practice quite a bit and sometimes I wish we did more because I do believe in giving it your all for Him. But I know I can spend so much time doing that, that I neglect Him.

Balance my freinds, balance.

I am very interested in this book you all speak of. I am going to try and order a copy.

++++++++++1

I also have found the value in simplicity and taking it as it comes. We practice quite a bit and sometimes I wish we did more because I do believe in giving it your all for Him. But I know I can spend so much time doing that, that I neglect Him.

Balance my freinds, balance.

I am very interested in this book you all speak of. I am going to try and order a copy.

Well put groov'ster; I whole-heartedly agree that we should give God our all in service to him, worship begins before we strap on the bass, and playing is just an extension of our lifestyle... but if we neglect to put down the instrument, no matter how good we sound... we will be but making noise.

This is coming from the FWIW column, but I have been doing worship at a fairly large church for a while now, and I have dealt with the issues mentioned here on and off most of that time. We produce for television all that kind of stuff, but mostly the worship leader is just the kind of personality that wants an extremely well-polished and overall high quality "production" at every service. I respect that and mostly appreciate it, but is has gotten in the way spiritually for me more than once.

So, after a lot of praying and counsel, I have really come to a place that is comfortable for me that makes the balance between "worship" and musical excellence an easy one to manage. It's a personal thing and everyone will have to settle up with God about it in their own way.

For me, I am fortunate in that I have been doing it long enough to not let the "fly by the seat of your pants" nature of live worship get in the way for me. I have learned and adapted, so now, the predictably unpredictable nature of Sunday mornings is just the way things are. It doesn't bother me. It is actually kind of fun, and IME, the unplanned elements often are more worshipful.

Personally, I don't mind the simplicity of some of the worship music. For a couple of reasons:

1. Some of the simple stuff has been what I have really seen inspire worship in the congregations. Tomlin's "How Great Is Our God" is about as simple as it gets. Nonetheless, it is a powerful worship song.

2. The simple stuff is often the opportunity for me to personally have a Holy Spirit interaction right then and there as part of the worship experience.

But, I don't limit my concept of worship to those types of experiences.

We also do stuff that is fairly challenging for me technically. It is not uncommon for me to be in a position that because of either the technical level of the tune or the level of preparedness, I am extremely focused on "performing" and playing excellently. The most commonly viewed concept of worship is nowhere on my mind.

That said, I have no problems at all with being that way. Here's where I am with it:

Leading worship is about facilitating congregational worship as well as personal worship. If my efforts are contributing, I see it as honoring God.

So what if I am riveted to a chart or totally engrossed in keeping my head ahead of my fingers. If God is using that message in song to move in the life of another person, I am blessed to be piece of that tool.

I could rant forever, but I will stop. It's Todd's forum afterall.

Thanks Todd.






As for the book "The Heart of the Artist," I also recommend it. We went through it as a worship team a while back. There are some excellent discussion points in it.

Hi Charles??? is that right??

Anyway.....

You are an eloquent man!! EXTEMELY well said......much better than anything I probably would have, or could have said.

I don't have anything to add other than I really appreciate your wonderful contributions to the thread......and to my forum for that matter. Well done my friend!!

Your fan,

That was articulated very well! Man, do I know those moments. I think it echoes what Jared has mentioned with respect to preparedness and responsibility. For to whom much has been given, much is expected (see the Parable of the Talents).

While I don't have the instruction or the experience that many of you on this forum do, I bust my butt to try and learn, grow, and be as prepared as possible so that I am bringing my best to the table every time. I've found it does a few things for me: it allows me to worship BECAUSE I am prepared, not in spite of it; it teaches me about character, obedience, and responsibility, three things I feel God has for His children if they follow Him; and it makes me a better player. The more I learn, the more I am able to translate what my heart wants to respond with. My songwriting grows and with it I am able to bring everything I can offer.

Dear Matt,

WOW.....home run!!!!! :hyper:

You and Charles are killing me!! You're both so right on.....PTL for that!!

Again, I don't have anything to add other than my thanks and my admiration for your eloquent post.

Well done my friend!!

Your fan,

++++++++++1

I also have found the value in simplicity and taking it as it comes. We practice quite a bit and sometimes I wish we did more because I do believe in giving it your all for Him. But I know I can spend so much time doing that, that I neglect Him.

Balance my freinds, balance.

I am very interested in this book you all speak of. I am going to try and order a copy.


Groov'ster,

You got it......BALANCE.....is the key!!

Man, all of you guys are just BEAUTIFUL!!! God has truly blessed me today by all of your responses.:hyper:

Bass players rule!!!:bassist:

Well put groov'ster; I whole-heartedly agree that we should give God our all in service to him, worship begins before we strap on the bass, and playing is just an extension of our lifestyle... but if we neglect to put down the instrument, no matter how good we sound... we will be but making noise.

Torch7,

Ditto..........ABSOLUTELY RIGHT ON!!

Thanks Torch7......like I've been saying.....you guys are right on the money!!

Thanks for your heart and great attitude!!!

GUYS!

This thread, I dont know about you, but I felt anointed as I read this! My heart burns with a desire to even give the best for God.

I am a youth pastor in my church and has been learning from 0 ... till now about 4 years in the ministry. Sure, we're all in for giving the best for the Lord here! WOW!

Adding to the books, check out Matt Redman's 'Unquenchable Worshipper'. Its a small book with heavy, anointed content!

It will inspired you as its on me. He will tells you the background of the song 'Heart of Worship', how they started out with superb worship team and loses the fire.

Although its not too relevant, any worship leader here? You have to read Ron Kenoly's "Lift Him Up", a really good practical book how to be a worship leader anointed to lead, 'father' the worship team, and still in-sync with the senior pastor's vision.

God bless guys,
JOhan

Groov'ster,

You got it......BALANCE.....is the key!!

Man, all of you guys are just BEAUTIFUL!!! God has truly blessed me today by all of your responses.:hyper:

Bass players rule!!!:bassist:

YEAP :)

Watch out not for us to practice too much, and forget the Audience of One haha

Blessings

YEAP :)

Watch out not for us to practice too much, and forget the Audience of One haha

Blessings


Johans,

Cool........now we have the worship pastors with us!!:cool:

Thanks for the suggested reading!!

This thread is turning into a cool thing.......

PTL!!:hyper:

This ia a great thread. Glad to see so many with simmilar views on bass and worship as myself.

:D

Sanch,

I'd love to come to Milwaukee. I'm going to be in Chicago and Indianapolis at the end of March .....first of April. Drop me a note off list....maybe we can put something together since I'll be that close.

Cool...:cool:

I'll be there Todd. Looking forward to the sessions and the worship time. This is a great thread and terrific insight. Been playing mostly guitar and some bass, and leading worship once in a while for 14 years here in the Chicago area. No better place to be than where God wants you to be! Be strong in Him!

I'll be there Todd. Looking forward to the sessions and the worship time. This is a great thread and terrific insight. Been playing mostly guitar and some bass, and leading worship once in a while for 14 years here in the Chicago area. No better place to be than where God wants you to be! Be strong in Him!

Thanks Tom!!

I'm really looking forward to seeing you in Chicago. It also looks like I'll be doing a couple of dates in Indianapolis and one in Kokomo.:hyper:

Thanks so much for your prayers and support.

See you soon,

Wow. I've been reading this thread off and on since it's been around.

It's funny, I've been thinking a lot of the same things over the last few months. I've been playing in my church since I first started playing bass. I think within my first two weeks of having a bass, I played at my youth group (I hope nobody has any form of recording of that...)

I've come so far as a musician since then. The first Wed. night I played, I put sticky notes on the neck because I didn't know any of the notes...

Now, I don't even have to think about what I'm playing. Unless I'm trying to push the envelope.

Sometimes people say, "why don't you sing?" I do sing, sometimes; but I think the view of worship in general has been so contorted in today's society. I mean, isn't worship mainly about our actions? Not repeated words sung by a large group of people. I mean, I see how the music is worship. It's about using our talents/blessings/lives to glorify God. For me, I worship by playing bass. I may not sing, but I'm going to play my bass like never before. There have been times that the spirit has just flowed; and I played things that I could never remember or play again. I think I even blacked out once... just mentally.

I don't know exactly what I'm trying to say. It's just that I've just seen God bless me in so many different ways as far as music goes. The acquisition of my current bass, and the one that's on it's way shows that so amazingly IMO. Sometimes I take His blessings for granted, sometimes I don't realize them right away; but when I do... I'm rendered pretty much speechless.

I honestly don't think that I could play music if it wasn't to glorify Him. Whenever I jam with secular bands, I walk away asking myself "what was the point of that?" I get nothing out of it. All I did was attempt to glorify myself. I need/deserve none. God, however, deserves it all.

I guess I see things differently. I have no problem jamming in a secular setting. I used to do accounting. Now because I wasn't a "christian" accountant, that is I did accounting for a "secular" company, did that mean I could not glorify God. If I fight fires is it essential that I do it in a spirit of worship and not actually concentrate on the training, or can I do both. I think that if my intention is service of God and mankind it really does not matter what I do. I believe I am absolutely free in Christ to do so. So unless people can literally do everything in a "non-secular" element I think they will leave the situation believing there is no point. But if you believe Christ has freed you to pursue all things then it is far less concerning about whether music is played for its cool chord progression or for revival. But in both situations you can trust God is glorified if your motive is pure. Now I understand there are limitations to this analogy, freedom gives me responsibility. In that light I cannot choose something deemed sinful by God as an honest holy pursuit. I am free to choose that which is sinful, but that does not mean God is necessarily glorified and that I am free from consequence. I think it does mean that if my purpose is to relate to God (and abstain from sinful behavior), even over an incredible song with seemingly pointless lyrics, I can still approach this music in a pure light. Music always gets the short end of the stick. A carwasher can glorify God by washing a Mercedes, owned by, a NON CHRISTIAN, but a musician cannot by playing a secular song. Truly I am not sure typing on TB is glorifying God, but my intentions and motives are kindhearted. When we post outside of the christian topics on this board are we in the wrong by not glorifying God at that particular moment. I hope this does not seem as a slam. I intend it to be a different point of view, that is all. I agree with one thing you said wholeheartedly, "for me, I worship by playing my bass."


Wow. I've been reading this thread off and on since it's been around.

It's funny, I've been thinking a lot of the same things over the last few months. I've been playing in my church since I first started playing bass. I think within my first two weeks of having a bass, I played at my youth group (I hope nobody has any form of recording of that...)

I've come so far as a musician since then. The first Wed. night I played, I put sticky notes on the neck because I didn't know any of the notes...

Now, I don't even have to think about what I'm playing. Unless I'm trying to push the envelope.

Sometimes people say, "why don't you sing?" I do sing, sometimes; but I think the view of worship in general has been so contorted in today's society. I mean, isn't worship mainly about our actions? Not repeated words sung by a large group of people. I mean, I see how the music is worship. It's about using our talents/blessings/lives to glorify God. For me, I worship by playing bass. I may not sing, but I'm going to play my bass like never before. There have been times that the spirit has just flowed; and I played things that I could never remember or play again. I think I even blacked out once... just mentally.

I don't know exactly what I'm trying to say. It's just that I've just seen God bless me in so many different ways as far as music goes. The acquisition of my current bass, and the one that's on it's way shows that so amazingly IMO. Sometimes I take His blessings for granted, sometimes I don't realize them right away; but when I do... I'm rendered pretty much speechless.

I honestly don't think that I could play music if it wasn't to glorify Him. Whenever I jam with secular bands, I walk away asking myself "what was the point of that?" I get nothing out of it. All I did was attempt to glorify myself. I need/deserve none. God, however, deserves it all.

Wow. I've been reading this thread off and on since it's been around.

It's funny, I've been thinking a lot of the same things over the last few months. I've been playing in my church since I first started playing bass. I think within my first two weeks of having a bass, I played at my youth group (I hope nobody has any form of recording of that...)

I've come so far as a musician since then. The first Wed. night I played, I put sticky notes on the neck because I didn't know any of the notes...

Now, I don't even have to think about what I'm playing. Unless I'm trying to push the envelope.

Sometimes people say, "why don't you sing?" I do sing, sometimes; but I think the view of worship in general has been so contorted in today's society. I mean, isn't worship mainly about our actions? Not repeated words sung by a large group of people. I mean, I see how the music is worship. It's about using our talents/blessings/lives to glorify God. For me, I worship by playing bass. I may not sing, but I'm going to play my bass like never before. There have been times that the spirit has just flowed; and I played things that I could never remember or play again. I think I even blacked out once... just mentally.

I don't know exactly what I'm trying to say. It's just that I've just seen God bless me in so many different ways as far as music goes. The acquisition of my current bass, and the one that's on it's way shows that so amazingly IMO. Sometimes I take His blessings for granted, sometimes I don't realize them right away; but when I do... I'm rendered pretty much speechless.

I honestly don't think that I could play music if it wasn't to glorify Him. Whenever I jam with secular bands, I walk away asking myself "what was the point of that?" I get nothing out of it. All I did was attempt to glorify myself. I need/deserve none. God, however, deserves it all.

OpaqueBass,

Hey, keep up the good work......keep improving as a musician...it's an endless process.

I appreciate your positive contributions!!

One thought: Sometimes we'll be in a "jam" etc....some kind of secular situation....Heck, I play in jazz clubs all the time....but my heart and my efforts are to please God with ALL that I do.....I fall short....but that's what I'm shooting for. I have to focus on the fact that we're called to be "salt and light"......

When you're in one of those "secular band" situations pray for an opportunity to share the gospel with those that are lost....pray for them on the way to the session....while you're there....when you're on the way home. Hopefully they'll notice "Christ's Light" shining from you.....you'll be surprised at the opportunity's that God will send your way.

Sometimes it's just an opportunity to "love" and "serve" others. That'll seperate you and make you different right there!!

Anyway....that's my 2 cents worth....and my experience FWIW.

Keep making a joyful sound!!:D

I guess I see things differently. I have no problem jamming in a secular setting. I used to do accounting. Now because I wasn't a "christian" accountant, that is I did accounting for a "secular" company, did that mean I could not glorify God. If I fight fires is it essential that I do it in a spirit of worship and not actually concentrate on the training, or can I do both. I think that if my intention is service of God and mankind it really does not matter what I do. I believe I am absolutely free in Christ to do so. So unless people can literally do everything in a "non-secular" element I think they will leave the situation believing there is no point. But if you believe Christ has freed you to pursue all things then it is far less concerning about whether music is played for its cool chord progression or for revival. But in both situations you can trust God is glorified if your motive is pure. Now I understand there are limitations to this analogy, freedom gives me responsibility. In that light I cannot choose something deemed sinful by God as an honest holy pursuit. I am free to choose that which is sinful, but that does not mean God is necessarily glorified and that I am free from consequence. I think it does mean that if my purpose is to relate to God (and abstain from sinful behavior), even over an incredible song with seemingly pointless lyrics, I can still approach this music in a pure light. Music always gets the short end of the stick. A carwasher can glorify God by washing a Mercedes, owned by, a NON CHRISTIAN, but a musician cannot by playing a secular song. Truly I am not sure typing on TB is glorifying God, but my intentions and motives are kindhearted. When we post outside of the christian topics on this board are we in the wrong by not glorifying God at that particular moment. I hope this does not seem as a slam. I intend it to be a different point of view, that is all. I agree with one thiong you said wholeheartedly, "for me, I worship by playing my bass."


ii-v, (great name btw!)

Hey, thanks for your positive contributions!:)

Keep up the worship!!

This is an awesome thread guys. I keep expecting the politically correct police to rush in and say "all right, break it up!"

Lots of good stuff here. Lots of expression of stuff I have been thinking and praying about myself. From the simplest song to the most difficult, having your heart in it is the thing. When God's Spirit shows up it's just like nothing else. Playing secular music can be fun too but when God shows up during worship..., the world has nothing to compare to that.

As I'm rereading my post, I'm thinking that it may have come across differently than I meant.

I love playing music - secular or not. I view secular music differently that some people do I think. I definitely don't limit myself to listening only to christian music. However, I do draw the line at certain points.

I have no problem jamming/rocking out with a secular band; but as far as being a permanent bassist... I'm pretty hesitant. If I were to take a position, I'd definitely have to analyze it and make sure that it's a good situation to be in as far as the overall message their trying to portray. My last band played more mainstream, secular if you will, music; but we were all Christians and our ultimate goal was to minister to people (whether other bands on tour, fans, producers, etc.). We weren't necesarily vocal about our faith onstage; but behind the scenes: we meant business.

What I mainly meant by my statement was that when I play with people in a non-ministry setting, I just don't enjoy it as much. The spirit doesn't move, and people are only trying to uplift themselves and recieve glory from others. I personally could care less if people think I'm a good bass player or not (though I like to think I'm a'ight), I just want them to see my heart and the work and effort that I put into my music. From there maybe a conversation will start...

OpaqueBass,

Hey, keep up the good work......keep improving as a musician...it's an endless process.

I appreciate your positive contributions!!

One thought: Sometimes we'll be in a "jam" etc....some kind of secular situation....Heck, I play in jazz clubs all the time....but my heart and my efforts are to please God with ALL that I do.....I fall short....but that's what I'm shooting for. I have to focus on the fact that we're called to be "salt and light"......

When you're in one of those "secular band" situations pray for an opportunity to share the gospel with those that are lost....pray for them on the way to the session....while you're there....when you're on the way home. Hopefully they'll notice "Christ's Light" shining from you.....you'll be surprised at the opportunity's that God will send your way.

Sometimes it's just an opportunity to "love" and "serve" others. That'll seperate you and make you different right there!!

Anyway....that's my 2 cents worth....and my experience FWIW.

Keep making a joyful sound!!:D

Thanks for sharing this Todd. I try to please God in everything I do especially playing music. I too fall shory on a consistent basis, but I know that he is there to a). forgive me, and b). pick me up.

Yesterday at church was probably the best song service we have had. There is no doubt that wew were letting the Holy Spirit move in us. We struggle as a church band most of the time due to the lack of experience from all the musicians. It gets frustrating at times where I just want to walk out. I dont, because I can't glorify God if I do, and that is the point of me playing the bass. I know it will all come together in time, and after yesterday I think everyone knows that now.

I think some people approach music as a "Musical Levite", (I didn't know what else it could be called) Myself being included I only listen to and play Christian Music.... but thats just me, I don't condem or look down my nose at others who choose to play secular music.

However I do think there should be limits placed on our liberty as musicians, me playing or listening to an R. Kelly song would be just tooo confusing to some of my students, most of what he talks about contradicts what I teach on Wednesday nights and Sunday mornings, and would defile my mind as a Christian so I abstain. The word of God clearly states that our liberties, should be at the expense of other believers.

I wholeheartedly agree with ii-v on the point that we cannot live apart from the secular world, however; we do have to view lifestyle choices in the light of God's word. There is an obvious difference if I am an Christian who works in an accounting office, than If I am a Christian who works in Strip Club.

I know these seem to be extreme examples but with the demographic that I minister to these examples arent extreme at all.

I think some people approach music as a "Musical Levite", (I didn't know what else it could be called) Myself being included I only listen to and play Christian Music.... but thats just me, I don't condem or look down my nose at others who choose to play secular music.

However I do think there should be limits placed on our liberty as musicians, me playing or listening to an R. Kelly song would be just tooo confusing to some of my students, most of what he talks about contradicts what I teach on Wednesday nights and Sunday mornings, and would defile my mind as a Christian so I abstain. The word of God clearly states that our liberties, should be at the expense of other believers.

I wholeheartedly agree with ii-v on the point that we cannot live apart from the secular world, however; we do have to view lifestyle choices in the light of God's word. There is an obvious difference if I am an Christian who works in an accounting office, than If I am a Christian who works in Strip Club.

I know these seem to be extreme examples but with the demographic that I minister to these examples arent extreme at all.

I'm going to sum up my thoughts on this with one word...

Word.

However I do think there should be limits placed on our liberty as musicians, me playing or listening to an R. Kelly song would be just tooo confusing to some of my students, most of what he talks about contradicts what I teach on Wednesday nights and Sunday mornings, and would defile my mind as a Christian so I abstain. The word of God clearly states that our liberties, should be at the expense of other believers.

I wholeheartedly agree with ii-v on the point that we cannot live apart from the secular world, however; we do have to view lifestyle choices in the light of God's word. There is an obvious difference if I am an Christian who works in an accounting office, than If I am a Christian who works in Strip Club.
Pursuing a career in the entertainment industry is incredibly dangerous, spiritually, with all the temptations and the opportunities to compromise your faith. I don’t think it’s a wise way to go if you can do anything else. Or even if you can’t.

I remember reading about some woman many years ago who supposedly got saved. She was a stripper, so afterward she became a “stripper for Christ”. Talk about ignorance gone to seed. I thought it was hilarious; I wasn’t saved at the time, but it shows your examples aren't really as extreme as they sound.

So is the stripper the musician in your analogy. I could not figure out where you were going with that. That is kind of what I meant by music gets the short end of the stick. It seems you jumped ship on talking about music and linked music with stripping. I could site examples of music that I should not play and you would agree with every one of them. But, my post was tempered with phrases like responsibility and abstaining from sin, therefore, I don't find it necessary to talk about music I should not play. Please let me know if I am misinterpreting your post. On the other hand I completely agree with everything else in your post. I do see the accountant being different from the stripper, but I do not follow the logic of it being in this discussion. The stripper to me serves as a "strawman argument".

As far as your choice to play and listen to christian music, I think that is fantastic.
I think some people approach music as a "Musical Levite", (I didn't know what else it could be called) Myself being included I only listen to and play Christian Music.... but thats just me, I don't condem or look down my nose at others who choose to play secular music.

However I do think there should be limits placed on our liberty as musicians, me playing or listening to an R. Kelly song would be just tooo confusing to some of my students, most of what he talks about contradicts what I teach on Wednesday nights and Sunday mornings, and would defile my mind as a Christian so I abstain. The word of God clearly states that our liberties, should be at the expense of other believers.

I wholeheartedly agree with ii-v on the point that we cannot live apart from the secular world, however; we do have to view lifestyle choices in the light of God's word. There is an obvious difference if I am an Christian who works in an accounting office, than If I am a Christian who works in Strip Club.

I know these seem to be extreme examples but with the demographic that I minister to these examples arent extreme at all.

So is the stripper the musician in your analogy. I could not figure out where you were going with that. That is kind of what I meant by music gets the short end of the stick. It seems you jumped ship on talking about music and linked music with stripping. I could site examples of music that I should not play and you would agree with every one of them. But, my post was tempered with phrases like responsibility and abstaining from sin, therefore, I don't find it necessary to talk about music I should not play. Please let me know if I am misinterpreting your post. On the other hand I completely agree with everything else in your post. I do see the accountant being different from the stripper, but I do not follow the logic of it being in this discussion. The stripper to me serves as a "strawman argument".

As far as your choice to play and listen to christian music, I think that is fantastic.
He's just saying that there are some activities that may be alright for HIM, but might mislead those who look at him.

The Apostle Paul has this to say about eating foods that are seen as "unclean," which can be paralleled to activities that are seen as "unChristian":

Romans 20:13 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. 14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food[b] is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.

19Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.

So yeah, it's something to think about. Maybe you wouldn't be tempted by doing a secular activity, but if others looking at you as a Christian example might stumble by you doing what you do, you need to reconsider why you're doing it.

That's what I got out of his post, anyway.

Like many have said, great discussion. A couple of things to add:

I'm really digging on the concept right now about how preparing to lead others to worship is worship in and of itself. So for me, that is where I get my "dose" of worship, so to speak (not that we can't worship at all times). During the worship service, I'm focusing on playing my best - honoring God by fulfilling my role as a musician, without so much trying to "get something out of it".

It's interesting to me that I should run across this thread because I've been thinking about this topic a lot recently, after reading the book Effortlesss Mastery (http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=WM0sBrtClO&isbn=156224003X&TXT=Y&itm=1), by Kenny Werner. It's not a Christian book, and has a lot of ambiguous spirituality in it (and to be honest, some heretical notions), but it makes some excellent points as well, and for me was very helpful in "unlocking" musical ability. It deals a lot with removing inhibitions in our approach to music, something that I definitely needed.

Anyway, the other thing I wanted to do was give a couple of plugs for books that I can endorse without any spiritual reservations:

The Dynamics of Worship (http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/product?item_no=56576&netp_id=372676&event=ESRCN&item_code=WW), James P. Gills, M.D.
Gills in this book examines the true meaning of worship in our lives, throughout our lives, and not just limited to the realm of segregational worship music. A great resource for any Christian musician.

At the Crossroads (http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/product?item_no=881286&netp_id=340205&event=ESRCN&item_code=WW), Charlie Peacock
Peacock (you've probably heard of him) is a Christian music producer that has worked with many well-known CCM musicians, as well as being a musician himself. In his book he addresses the issue of CCM, it's relevance to Christians and the world, and spends a lot of time talking about having a "Kingdom perspective". He also talks about what is "Christian music", and whether that does/should apply to any music made by a Christian, or if it is just limited to music that directly praises God, or exhorts others to worship God. A must read!

He's just saying that there are some activities that may be alright for HIM, but might mislead those who look at him.

The Apostle Paul has this to say about eating foods that are seen as "unclean," which can be paralleled to activities that are seen as "unChristian":

Romans 20:13 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. 14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food[b] is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.

19Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.

So yeah, it's something to think about. Maybe you wouldn't be tempted by doing a secular activity, but if others looking at you as a Christian example might stumble by you doing what you do, you need to reconsider why you're doing it.

That's what I got out of his post, anyway.


Thanks Dkerwoodm;

That was exactly what I was saying in my post.

ii-v;
I mentioned the stripper and accountant merely because it was said.

Now because I wasn't a "christian" accountant, that is I did accounting for a "secular" company, did that mean I could not glorify God.

I had a similiar discussion on another website about playing secular music, and a believer was using that exact argument. I was merely adding a balance to your statement, that an accountant can glorify God while a stripper cannot. I hope I am not being too confusing.

I think music gets scrutinized more because, there is a particular power behind music, and us as musicians need to be responsible with this power we have at our disposal.

Barthanatos-
Those books just went on my must-have list. Thanks very much for posting that.

No problem. They're those kind of books that make you want to buy copies for all your friends and just give them away.

This thread is bound for stickydom!

Rom. 14:13?

I still do not understand the comparison, but I do not think that I have to either. Here is why I don't get it.

In both jobs I spoke of sin is not a requirement, to be a stripper it (sin) is a requirement (according to christianity). That is why it through me off. Torch7 can say: "playing secular music is like stripping to my conscience".
I have no right to tell him to sin against his conscience. However, it would be in the wrong for him to say, "playing secular music is akin to stripping".

That said, he may not have meant either example I gave. The ex. I gave used an accountant and a musician. My question is which did the stripper replace in the analogy?

Great discussion, I enjoy the tone of each post, low key yet productive.

The comparisons you guys are bringing up are reminding me of xxxchurch.com

If you haven't checked this out, it's a pretty cool organization. They're trying to take on the issue of pornography. I read an article about them in Relevant magazine a week or two ago. It talked about how they went to a huge porn convention, spreading their message. I think that takes a lot of guts. I mean, they're reaching people that probably wouldn't be otherwise reached. They've changed the lives of pornstars, addicts, execs., etc. How did they do it? By diving head first into the heart of the issue at hand.

I'm probably not in any place to comment on it; but I don't know if the stripper necessarily had to replace anything in the analogy. It seemed to me like it was more a sense of location (working in a business firm vs. strip club?). You can honor God, IMO, in either position. Obviously, it would be MUCH harder to do in a strip club; but still possible. It's the way that you use it.

While I do not agree with honoring God in either location, I appreciate your response.

The comparisons you guys are bringing up are reminding me of xxxchurch.com

If you haven't checked this out, it's a pretty cool organization. They're trying to take on the issue of pornography. I read an article about them in Relevant magazine a week or two ago. It talked about how they went to a huge porn convention, spreading their message. I think that takes a lot of guts. I mean, they're reaching people that probably wouldn't be otherwise reached. They've changed the lives of pornstars, addicts, execs., etc. How did they do it? By diving head first into the heart of the issue at hand.

I'm probably not in any place to comment on it; but I don't know if the stripper necessarily had to replace anything in the analogy. It seemed to me like it was more a sense of location (working in a business firm vs. strip club?). You can honor God, IMO, in either position. Obviously, it would be MUCH harder to do in a strip club; but still possible. It's the way that you use it.

Rom. 14:13?

I still do not understand the comparison, but I do not think that I have to either. Here is why I don't get it.

In both jobs I spoke of sin is not a requirement, to be a stripper it (sin) is a requirement (according to christianity). That is why it through me off. Torch7 can say: "playing secular music is like stripping to my conscience".
I have no right to tell him to sin against his conscience. However, it would be in the wrong for him to say, "playing secular music is akin to stripping".

That said, he may not have meant either example I gave. The ex. I gave used an accountant and a musician. My question is which did the stripper replace in the analogy?

Great discussion, I enjoy the tone of each post, low key yet productive.

You were using an accountant as an example of an activity that does not necessarily involve sin - as a counterpart to playing music. Your argument was that the "secular" activity does not detract from your personal ministry.

The example of the stripper was used similarly - but to illustrate the other side of the coin. Certain types of music and situations for a musician lend themselves more easily to a sinful lifestyle - and certainly can lead others to question your ministry.

Obviously, this likely wouldn't apply to you or most of the posters on this thread, but you can't deny that there are some musical situations that a Christian should not in good conscience be a part of - hence the "stripper" example.

I totally agree about your point on situations. However, playing secular music does not require me to sin, stripping does. When putting together an analogy it is important to give apples to apples comparisons. His ex. in my view is an apple to orange. However, I agree that stripping and or strip clubs are reprehensible. If his logic follows we could insert world dictator (Hitler) in his example. And I just do not see the point in doing that, that's all. I guess explaining further to me is not going to help, my view is that it is unapplicable to what we are discussing, but given the right topic I think his outcome is completely right and the verses sited are very applicable.

You were using an accountant as an example of an activity that does not necessarily involve sin - as a counterpart to playing music. Your argument was that the "secular" activity does not detract from your personal ministry.

The example of the stripper was used similarly - but to illustrate the other side of the coin. Certain types of music and situations for a musician lend themselves more easily to a sinful lifestyle - and certainly can lead others to question your ministry.

Obviously, this likely wouldn't apply to you or most of the posters on this thread, but you can't deny that there are some musical situations that a Christian should not in good conscience be a part of - hence the "stripper" example.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/12/05/wstrip05.xml

http://perimeter-community.followers.net/In_The_News___.AJC_-_Stripper_Ministry_-_4-8-05

Interesting.

It seems that God can and does work wherever He chooses.

Thank God that He is God and not we, eh? :)

My apologies for not spending more time in posting, so that my thoughts would be clearer.

The stripper analogy was merely to show, that on one extreme secular professions you can glorify God, in what you do, while on the other extreme you cannot. So the issue is not so cut and dry when it comes to secular & non-secular.

I do not mean to lump all secular music into one category, but the vast majority of what I was exposed to, I see no way of God getting glory in it. I realize that I haven't been exposed to every genre, and style, but I am speaking out of my experience, and I know this is limited.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/12/05/wstrip05.xml

http://perimeter-community.followers.net/In_The_News___.AJC_-_Stripper_Ministry_-_4-8-05

Interesting.

It seems that God can and does work wherever He chooses.

Thank God that He is God and not we, eh? :)

I only read the first story...but there is a fundamental difference in what these ladies are doing, they are no longer strippers, but paying for a private dance, and then ministering the Word of God, you see their primary reason for being at the club is to be a witness in the midst of darkness. It just wouldn't work if it were a stipper taken off their clothes while preaching the gospel.

Hi Friends,

Hey, I'm really enjoying the input from everybody.....

I do however want to make sure this doesn't turn into a theology/bashing thing......

So far everyone is cool.....:cool: ....and the tone is respectful.....:hyper: ......that's TOTALLY appreciated!!!....:D

I just don't want things to get "too" heavy.....OK???

....or we can take that kind of stuff off list etc. and discuss it there. This is the "ask Todd Johnson" forum after all..........

Thanks for your understanding!!

Cool. Back to...

The original question about musical competency is important to me. I don't have a teacher, or a venue to play in outside of church, assuming I could find one that fit. Finding a way to improve has been a challenge for a marginally talented person like myself. It doesn't help that things in my church have been a little disorganized due to tragedies that occurred last year, and we don't take much time for practice. I think I'm going to look into ordering your technique DVD, since that's really one area that might help me for the rest of my playing career.

As far as excellence in playing is concerned, I believe in doing my part by doing my best (with what I have to work with), and for the rest of it I really rely on God. Not always, but there are times when His presence will bring me up a step, and it seems my tone, timing and note choice all improve in a way.

Cool. Back to...

The original question about musical competency is important to me. I don't have a teacher, or a venue to play in outside of church, assuming I could find one that fit. Finding a way to improve has been a challenge for a marginally talented person like myself. It doesn't help that things in my church have been a little disorganized due to tragedies that occurred last year, and we don't take much time for practice. I think I'm going to look into ordering your technique DVD, since that's really one area that might help me for the rest of my playing career.

As far as excellence in playing is concerned, I believe in doing my part by doing my best (with what I have to work with), and for the rest of it I really rely on God. Not always, but there are times when His presence will bring me up a step, and it seems my tone, timing and note choice all improve in a way.

Hi Elwood,

You're totally right on!:cool:

It's just SO important to be striving and working to improve as musicians.....to make the music as good as we can....God will honor that.....We just "owe" him our best.....especially after the price he paid for us!!!

I'm confident the DVD will be a big help.

Hey, I'm studying all the time.....constantly trying to improve...trying to make the music as good as I can....

Sometimes I make it ......:hyper: ......sometimes I don't....:help: ......it's about offering my best to God.

Keep up the good work!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/12/05/wstrip05.xml

http://perimeter-community.followers.net/In_The_News___.AJC_-_Stripper_Ministry_-_4-8-05

Interesting.

It seems that God can and does work wherever He chooses.

Thank God that He is God and not we, eh? :)

Puff Father (great name!)

You got it Daddy!!!

God works wherever chooses.....He also uses "clay pots" like you and me. :D AMAZING!!! Praise Him for that!!

Thanks!

My apologies for not spending more time in posting, so that my thoughts would be clearer.

The stripper analogy was merely to show, that on one extreme secular professions you can glorify God, in what you do, while on the other extreme you cannot. So the issue is not so cut and dry when it comes to secular & non-secular.

I do not mean to lump all secular music into one category, but the vast majority of what I was exposed to, I see no way of God getting glory in it. I realize that I haven't been exposed to every genre, and style, but I am speaking out of my experience, and I know this is limited.
Agreed. There is a lot of secular music which simply cannot be presented without being sinful. How could a Christian, for example, play in Marilyn Manson's band? Or Ozzie Osbourne? The music and the Christian lifestyle simply don't match.

Even beyond those extreme examples, though, a LOT of secular music (especially rock music) is about sex, drugs, alcohol, partying, and general self glorification. Christians need to be very very careful about participating here, because although they can easily play those songs without believing their message, it can send a strange mixed message to those who might look at these musicians as Christian examples.

For example: I had a friend who led his praise team at church. Meanwhile, he was in a secular band that was gaining quite a regional following. They were even doing a fair bit of nation-wide touring, hitting each coast about once a year. They were almost a cliched "party band"... most of the songs were love songs to anonymous girls or songs about road trips or parties or drinking... They were a big hit with the college crowd, as you might expect.

They also would traditionally drink before and after the show, just to loosen up a little. My friend didn't have a problem with legal, responsible drinking (nor do I), and they never would drink onstage. His church was fine with how he presented himself (and so am I, FWIW), but I know of at least 2 people who looked at him as a vocal Christian, and decided that he seemed to have no noticable difference from his secular counterparts. The songs he was playing were the same, he drank the same as they did (he didn't get drunk, but that part was often ignored, as were his personal motives).

Was he wrong to do as he did? I don't think so necessarily, but he did lose his chance to minister to those 2 people. I do know that he had many chances to minister to others, so the positives rather outweigh the negatives in this case, but I hope you see my point.

Sorry. I'll drop this side issue now. :D

I think this is the issue. Of course, it goes much deeper than music, but "free in Christ" to one may easily be a problem for another.

Yeah, there's a fine line there.......

I personally don't want to do anything to make my "brother" stumble.....

....a fine line indeed!!

I need to go pray.......and PRACTICE!!!:bassist:

I think this is the issue. Of course, it goes much deeper than music, but "free in Christ" to one may easily be a problem for another.
Interesting. I hadn't thought much about how this issue might relate to the main issue of this thread. I wonder if my specific attitude toward preparation of church music has some adverse effect on my praise team members...

I'll join TJ at the prayer altar... and then in the practice room!

I'm going to tell a little story to illustrate the other side of the coin of preparedness.

Years back when I was going to my first church in VA the pastor there loved music, and would let just about anybody sing a "special". All they had to do was ask. We were a mixture of Navy (just outside one of the NOB gates) and a core of regulars, with a diverse congregation. There were a lot of young adults. Every so often the pastor would cancel the Sunday evening service in favor of having a "sing-a-thon" early afternoon service. We'd leave after morning service, go have lunch and spend the afternoon listening to a parade of people do specials, and that was the service.

So, we were having one of these type services, and about 6 people had gone and done something already when a small black woman came up to sing. She had a very anointed ministry in singing, and never failed to bless the congregation when she ministered. She sang like a bird, wonderful natural talent to go with the calling.

That was kind of like the cap of the service, but there was one more young fellow that had asked to sing, but hadn't sung yet. He had to follow her- not something I would have wanted to try. Plus, he had never sung in service before. His voice was, well, hardly what you would call solo quality. He couldn't rely on his natural talent, because he really didn't have any.

He got on the platform and sang, "Jesus be Jesus in Me". If you've never seen anything like this, you might not understand what I describe next, but as he sang, the glory of God entered the sanctuary. It was visible, and appeared to me like a heavy fog, and felt almost like electricity. As the "cloud" moved over the congregation, people were getting set free by the power of God. I know, I was one of them. And so was one of my friends, who was only a few feet from me.

I have only seen a manifestation of God like this a couple of times in 20 years as a Christian, and I tell you, when the Bible says "we can do nothing without Him", it means it. I realize that even if I could play like Vic Wooten, or Dickens, or Jaco or Clark, it would have no lasting value unless God was in it. I definitely have a responsibility to do my part, but at the end of the day, it's got to be God.

Now, here's the final point. That young gentleman, who could hardly sing but was used so mightily by God, was the most humble, soft-hearted Christian I have ever had the pleasure to know. It convinced me of one thing- if I want to be used of God, practising obedience and devotion to God will get more done than practising the instrument.

Elwood

I know what you are saying about when God shows up, in such a manifested way, its an awesome site. We have some very anointed services, where God really moves, because we are taught to seek God all throughout the week, and have the attitude "I was glad when they said to me, Let us Go into the House of the Lord" for Sunday mornings. We went through a period at our Church, when we were praying and fasting as a congregation, for some specific direction. And God showed up that way each and every Sunday, for like 5 or 6 Services, the Wednesday Night Services were blessed, but Sunday mornings were nothing short of Awesome.

Pastor never got to the preached word, because the Spirit would fall so heavily, during praise and worship, that people would come to the alter to be saved with Tears in their eyes, Teenagers, older people it was simply amazing... This would last for hours, I get shivers just thinking about it. (I wasn't playing the bass at that time...hey wait a minute :confused: ...never mind. )

I practice and prepare so that when God decides to use this tool, it will be sharp and ready to do the bidding of its master. Preparation for me is key to my confidence, so that my finite mind, doesn't hinder the flow, when things begin to happen in the sanctuary.

Our praise and worship leader was our Pastor, before he passed the reigns to our current Praise and Worship Leader, who took the heart and passion of our Pastor for praise through music, and is very very serious about glorifying God through the ministry. Alot is Expected from the Singers as well as the musicians (Who are all Preachers as well). We are asked to prepare atleast 10 hours a week, which is a little hard for me, because I am the Youth Pastor, as well as having a full-time job, and 4 kids, and I just got through with a 2 year home building project. But I manage to get it done, at obscure hours, as not to detract from other respoonsibilities. I think without practice I could possibly hinder what God is trying to do, I wouldn't have liberty to do certain things, that I might be led to do. In our Friday Night Practice sessions, there is a certain freedom, because I think some inhabitions a lifted and there is a sense that you could try different things. The Freedom has caused for many people to show up to watch practice, because sometimes its more powerful than Sunday mornings.

But I definately know what you mean about God being able to move, and use whatever vessel he so chooses.

I’m right there with you! Getting blessed just reading your post. When you’re in the presence of the Lord like that, you come out changed, too.

If you were here, we’d have to spend some time sharing about this and have some blessed prayer.

You hit on some really important points, and I have to say “amen”. :)

When you’re in the presence of the Lord like that, you come out changed, too.

If you were here, we’d have to spend some time sharing about this and have some blessed prayer.



No Doubt.

There is nothing in the secular world that can compare to what you have described. (In the Universe for that matter :) )

Playing in a lousy praise team with hearts that are in one accord with the Lord is better than being in the hottest band in the secular world. Of course, I'll never even be close to being in that hot band, but I'll bet that's true! :D But not in the gambling sense of the word bet..., I, er, um... gosh, Christians can be a difficult lot! :hiding:

"... knowing you, Jesus, knowing you,
There is no greater thing..."

Wow! I have read through this entire thread and there are some very important points an observations made.
Well, I am the Senior Pastor of a growing mid-size church, prior to the call to preach I served as a church muscian for 18 years on the keys.
Prior to that a professional musician. I hope it is obvious that music is and has been an important part of my life, as a musician and pastor I believe I have a different perspective on this. We as a ministry have been really blessed with several professional very capable musicians.
My conviction is that God deserves quality in all that we do for him, mediocre musicianship is unacceptable to me, we should strive to improve our abilities in what we do that God may get the glory from our various gifts and talents. That said the other side of the coin has a lot to do with the attitude that we display when we are in service to and for the Lord. Case in point, it has bothered me that many of the good muscians today who play for churches, are doing just that playing for the church, they enjoy playing but they also enjoy getting paid. Now I understand this remember I was a church muscian. What I don't see are those who really have a heart for God, there are those who would forsake the ministry for the gig. whoever pays the most. It further saddens me that there doesn't seem to be a desire or maybe we don't have the ability to inspire the youth today to play for the Lord.
Example: How I ended up on bass; We had one bass player (this brother had mad skills) just over night called said he was going on tour and sorry for the short notice. When we shortly therafter replaced him, this brother stated that where he was wasn't fulfilling, and there were to many ego's there. We hired him agreed on a figure, two months later he goes back stating that he needed more money and they were willing to pay it. We also had a keyboard player leave to be the MD for the Isley Bro.

So I picked up the bass an instrument I had not played in about 20+ years, I am taking lessons because the group of guys at our church are excellent muscians. We have choir rehearsals a separate musicians rehearsal. So we spend time on our muscianship, my approach is that they expect a quality prepared message, I must give myself to prayer, study of the word, while maintaining a leadership lifestyle. I ask the same of every musician and singer. Come prepared know your material we are ushering, leading people into the spiritual presence of God. We need to be prepared but we also need to be anointed.
The point is about giving God our best, with our gifts, talents, and lifestyles, and trust him to do the rest. And we know that all thing work together for good to those that love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. (Romans 8:28)

Forgive my long rant.

Love & Peace

Wow, great thread! I've been a church bass musician exclusively for about 4 years. The assessment that there is a wide range of musicianship in the church is spot on with what I've seen. Also, the level of commitment and professionalism vary widely as well. Personally, I'm of the mind that my ability to play the bass is a gift from God, and it's my duty to do the best I can to use that gift in service.

I'm an active duty Marine Infantryman (19 years), and I just picked up an acoustic bass (Fender BG-31) to take to Iraq with me-I've been working with our chaplain to do services over there, so I thought I should have a bass to play since that's the gift I was given to worship with.

Anyhow, I just found out that there's no guitar player willing to play worship music, so it looks like I'm it for music........I did pick up "Inspirational hymns for Trombone" by Santorella Publications, so hopefully that will hold me over for a while.

Since this is the Ask Todd Johnson thread, I'm asking for prayers for this upcoming time-I leave tomorrow and anything is appreciated.

Todd, I am stationed in Southern California (29 Palms) and I'm looking forward to seeing you perform when I get back!

Scott

I find that a lot of the church music we are playing are really simple compositions. Sometimes that allows you to embellish things a bit, or sometimes, you end up thumping roots for ten minutes. I really don't mean to insult the writer's inspiration, but I would love to hear some new stuff. I like getting a challenge when learning new stuff.

I second that Trevorus. But like it has been mentioned elsewhere in this thread, it is all about worshipping God. I notice when I am playing with the team at church alot of the songs are simple. Though this does not mean folks are not being led into worship, myself included. Alot of secular music is "simple" too.

I myself love a challenge and found out long ago that I usually cannot get my "fill" of playing music to my hearts content playing in worship services, though I really do enjoy playing in church and serving in this capacity. For myself, along with playing on the praise team, I am involved in a band outside of church. All together I feel I am getting enough playing time to stay sharp, challenged and inspired to play.

Wow, great thread! I've been a church bass musician exclusively for about 4 years. The assessment that there is a wide range of musicianship in the church is spot on with what I've seen. Also, the level of commitment and professionalism vary widely as well. Personally, I'm of the mind that my ability to play the bass is a gift from God, and it's my duty to do the best I can to use that gift in service.

I'm an active duty Marine Infantryman (19 years), and I just picked up an acoustic bass (Fender BG-31) to take to Iraq with me-I've been working with our chaplain to do services over there, so I thought I should have a bass to play since that's the gift I was given to worship with.

Anyhow, I just found out that there's no guitar player willing to play worship music, so it looks like I'm it for music........I did pick up "Inspirational hymns for Trombone" by Santorella Publications, so hopefully that will hold me over for a while.

Since this is the Ask Todd Johnson thread, I'm asking for prayers for this upcoming time-I leave tomorrow and anything is appreciated.

Todd, I am stationed in Southern California (29 Palms) and I'm looking forward to seeing you perform when I get back!

Scott

Scott I'll be praying for you, thanks for serving and God bless you bro, LAG

Wow! I have read through this entire thread and there are some very important points an observations made.
Well, I am the Senior Pastor of a growing mid-size church, prior to the call to preach I served as a church muscian for 18 years on the keys.
Prior to that a professional musician. I hope it is obvious that music is and has been an important part of my life, as a musician and pastor I believe I have a different perspective on this. We as a ministry have been really blessed with several professional very capable musicians.
My conviction is that God deserves quality in all that we do for him, mediocre musicianship is unacceptable to me, we should strive to improve our abilities in what we do that God may get the glory from our various gifts and talents. That said the other side of the coin has a lot to do with the attitude that we display when we are in service to and for the Lord. Case in point, it has bothered me that many of the good muscians today who play for churches, are doing just that playing for the church, they enjoy playing but they also enjoy getting paid. Now I understand this remember I was a church muscian. What I don't see are those who really have a heart for God, there are those who would forsake the ministry for the gig. whoever pays the most. It further saddens me that there doesn't seem to be a desire or maybe we don't have the ability to inspire the youth today to play for the Lord.
Example: How I ended up on bass; We had one bass player (this brother had mad skills) just over night called said he was going on tour and sorry for the short notice. When we shortly therafter replaced him, this brother stated that where he was wasn't fulfilling, and there were to many ego's there. We hired him agreed on a figure, two months later he goes back stating that he needed more money and they were willing to pay it. We also had a keyboard player leave to be the MD for the Isley Bro.

So I picked up the bass an instrument I had not played in about 20+ years, I am taking lessons because the group of guys at our church are excellent muscians. We have choir rehearsals a separate musicians rehearsal. So we spend time on our muscianship, my approach is that they expect a quality prepared message, I must give myself to prayer, study of the word, while maintaining a leadership lifestyle. I ask the same of every musician and singer. Come prepared know your material we are ushering, leading people into the spiritual presence of God. We need to be prepared but we also need to be anointed.
The point is about giving God our best, with our gifts, talents, and lifestyles, and trust him to do the rest. And we know that all thing work together for good to those that love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. (Romans 8:28)

Forgive my long rant.

Love & Peace

ptidwell,

EXTREMELY WELL SAID.......Thank you for your input.

I see you live in L.A. Cool! We should hook up sometime. Maybe drop me a note off list and we can figure something out.

Anyway......GREAT POST!!

God bless,

Wow, great thread! I've been a church bass musician exclusively for about 4 years. The assessment that there is a wide range of musicianship in the church is spot on with what I've seen. Also, the level of commitment and professionalism vary widely as well. Personally, I'm of the mind that my ability to play the bass is a gift from God, and it's my duty to do the best I can to use that gift in service.

I'm an active duty Marine Infantryman (19 years), and I just picked up an acoustic bass (Fender BG-31) to take to Iraq with me-I've been working with our chaplain to do services over there, so I thought I should have a bass to play since that's the gift I was given to worship with.

Anyhow, I just found out that there's no guitar player willing to play worship music, so it looks like I'm it for music........I did pick up "Inspirational hymns for Trombone" by Santorella Publications, so hopefully that will hold me over for a while.

Since this is the Ask Todd Johnson thread, I'm asking for prayers for this upcoming time-I leave tomorrow and anything is appreciated.

Todd, I am stationed in Southern California (29 Palms) and I'm looking forward to seeing you perform when I get back!

Scott

Scott,

Please send me a personal message so I can get your email address and stay in touch with you while you're in IRAQ. I'd be happy to try and send you some "supplemental" materials while you're over there etc.

Cool .........will definitely be praying for you and all our troops!! Be careful.....

Come see me when you get back and be my guest one evening!! Cool.....

God bless you,

Godspeed Marine, git it done!

Hi Dale,

Hey, thanks for your comments! Actually, I know a bunch of phenomenal "church musicians" etc. ....and there are churches full of them.....THANKFULLY!!!:hyper: Can I get an AMEN?!

But, I also hear/see a TON of folks......who mean well.....but are lacking in preparation.....practice....musicianship skills etc. They're not bringing their best "offering" to the alter....know what I mean?? That's my frustration....The praise choruses etc. are really stuck in a rut....I'm dying to hear better song writing....some better harmony.... To me, so much of the music has been dumbed down to the point that it's really frustrating.

God has given us a HUGE smorgasboard of harmony, styles, grooves etc. It's a shame we don't take advantage of more of it on a regualr basis.

and......like you said....it's not just the church, but musicianship skills in general are down....across the board. Mediocrity is not only rewarded.....it's cherished and celebrated.

But, as Christians, we are called to a higher standard.....at least the way I understand it....I don't mean to be preachy here, OK.....But we're called to bring GOD our best.

I realize we all fall short........we're imperfect creatures....we're definitely "flawed".....well, I am anyway!!:help:

Hey, I don't mean to be so negative.....please don't misunderstand me.... There is also some great music out there that glorifies God......in a variety of styles.....I guess I wish there were more of it.

Hey, one of my missions in life is to try to help educate bass players (specifically) to become better musicians.....and hopefully they'll glorify God with their talents.

Plus, this is just my humble opinion......and my experience.

I'm thrilled to know that you're using your talents to glorify God through your music and your teaching.

Thanks again for your insightful comments!


I don't know what church Musicians you are talking about. Church musicians are the best musicians in the world. Tour some of L.A.'s biggest churches and find out for yourself. Andrew Gouche, Ethan, the guy that played on the usher live dvd, and Dante are just a few bass players i know. As far as drummers, I can't even name them because there are too many. Many churches have awful music programs and usually they are smaller. I dont go to a mega church but my church is decent size and now we have this killer guy eddie brown who has doen gigs with everybody. He plays every instrument better than you can, guaranteed. Organ, keys, bass, guitar, drums.... He's unbelievable at them all. All styles: traditional, contemporary, his own twist, classical, jazz, anything......

He plays every instrument better than you can, guaranteed

Have you ever seen Todd play?

cool thread:)

i've been wanting to get into a church for a while but i've been keeping myself from doing it...browsing through some of these church/praise threads lately has sparked something though

i sampled a couple of fred hammonds songs off his 'purpose by design' album, and it's sounds to be some great stuff--what's a god album with todd's playing i could find?

i'd love to get involved musically with a church, but i know that finding the right church needs to happen first...i've decided to really start hitting the shed hard for when it does happen though, and this forum looks like it will be a great help

thanks for sharing the knowledge and encouragement:)

I don't know what church Musicians you are talking about. Church musicians are the best musicians in the world. Tour some of L.A.'s biggest churches and find out for yourself. Andrew Gouche, Ethan, the guy that played on the usher live dvd, and Dante are just a few bass players i know. As far as drummers, I can't even name them because there are too many. Many churches have awful music programs and usually they are smaller. I dont go to a mega church but my church is decent size and now we have this killer guy eddie brown who has doen gigs with everybody. He plays every instrument better than you can, guaranteed. Organ, keys, bass, guitar, drums.... He's unbelievable at them all. All styles: traditional, contemporary, his own twist, classical, jazz, anything......

Hi Draginon,

Please don't misunderstand me.......the first thing I said in that post was " Actually, I know a bunch of phenomenal "church musicians" etc. ....and there are churches full of them.....THANKFULLY!!! Can I get an AMEN?!

My point was not to "put down" church musicians.....if I did this....or if you interpreted me that way, then I indeed apologize.

I also agree with you that L.A. is FULL of phenomenal musicians .....church musicians.....or otherwise. I'm also glad to know that you're able to play with great ones yourself. Praise the Lord for that.

ptidwell summed up what I was trying to say much more eloquently than I could....he said...."The point is about giving God our best, with our gifts, talents, and lifestyles, and trust him to do the rest. And we know that all thing work together for good to those that love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. (Romans 8:28)

My whole point is to encourage "ALL" of us to offer God our best. That's it.

It sounds as if I ruffled your feathers a bit. Believe me.... that is not my intent.....my tone.....my heart are supportive.

.....And I'm sure Eddie Brown plays all that stuff better than I do....I'm just a humble bass player.....I know guys like Eddie...they're amazing. Praise God for gifts like that!!!!

Blessings to you,

cool thread:)

i've been wanting to get into a church for a while but i've been keeping myself from doing it...browsing through some of these church/praise threads lately has sparked something though

i sampled a couple of fred hammonds songs off his 'purpose by design' album, and it's sounds to be some great stuff--what's a god album with todd's playing i could find?

i'd love to get involved musically with a church, but i know that finding the right church needs to happen first...i've decided to really start hitting the shed hard for when it does happen though, and this forum looks like it will be a great help

thanks for sharing the knowledge and encouragement:)

Heat@500hz,

Hey, I would encourage you to find a good "solid" church first.....a good bible teaching church.....

Hone your skills and God will use you for His purposes. What a priviledge to be useful to the Lord!!

Right now I don't have any current "Christian" releases. I have my "solo" offering CD I did about 5 years ago. I multi-tracked myself and played all the parts from my old Yamaha midi bass..........it turned out pretty good for an old guy.

I will however be doing some recording fairly soon with Jim Martinez for his Jazz Praise IV cd. That'll be a good one.

You can also check me out on the new Ron Eschete trio cd called "In the Middle"....it's available at www.roneschete.com . I'll have it up on www.toddjohnsonmusic.com in another week or so. That'll have to do for now.

Anyway.......we'll pray that God leads you to a good church that you can serve Him in.

Very, very cool.........:cool:

It convinced me of one thing- if I want to be used of God, practising obedience and devotion to God will get more done than practising the instrument.

That is something that I have learned myself. There are times when I really practice the material and it is great.

But there have been more times when we / I didn't get to practice and it is "off the cuff" led only by the Spirit. That is truly the heart of worship and it rules.

What a great thread.

Todd, I think you win for best quote when you referred to what to look for in a church.

I just discovered this thread and read it all. Great insights. I have been playing bass for about 16 years, and have been involved in woship teams for about 10 of those years. In college I had the opportunity to play play for many different worship teams. Along the way I have witnessed greatness and mediocrity, but regardless, I have been incredibly blessed to have the opportunity to use the instrument I love to worhsip Jesus.

I agree with much of what has been said here. I belive many churches are hampered by leadership that resists inovation or allows mediocrity, musicians who do not strive for excellence musically and spiritually, and worship teams who exchange worship for performance.

One subtext to this thread that hasn't been discussesed much but seems to have affected alot of folks is the issues of payment of church musicians and wether or not church musicians should be committed members of the church.

I have never recieved payment for any church gig, but I am not against those who have. If a church feels that they can afford it and wants to pay it's members to be on the worship team, then that thier perogative. Paying the worker for his effort is a solid biblical concept.

Many Churches cannot afford to pay musicians, sometimes not even the worship leader. In these cases you can only draw from what you have. However, by choosing appropriate music and only expanding a worship team as musicians become proficient, a good standard of music can be created. Perhaps not perfection, but music of a quality that it's shortcomings do not distract from worship.

My concern arises when church musicians (who are not full or part time worhship ministers) feel "entitled" to payment, or a church feels that it "MUST" have a certain high standard of music, and feels the need to hire musicians from outside the church body of membership. Musicians (even if they are not "leading") are leading the body in worship, and it is vital that those leading the body are "of one mind". Would you let a preacher whose spiritual/doctrinal background was unsure preach in your church? I think not. Why are many churches so ready to use a different standard for the very musicians who lead us in worship? Does hiring outside musicians foster the raising up of individuals in the congregation to serve in worship? How many churches who hire outside musicians screen, interview, pray with and really try to discern the spiritual aspect of those they are hiring?

Now I know their are exceptions. Sometimes a musician gets sick and a replacement may be need to be hired from "outside", special music groups visiting a church, I have heard of worship teams where a spiritually strong core group draws in a new or unbeliver musician as a way of ministering to them, and sometimes an individual will lend his talents to a struggling worhisp team at another church. These are all good exceptions (an I am sure there are more) considering the freedom we have in Christ.

I also worry that churches who use churchmembers in their music minsitry and refuse to hire outside musicians, are unfairly compared to churches who fill the stage with hired guns. Though this speaks to judging a congregation based on it's music which is folly from the start....

Good grief, I seem very negative and quite worrisome don't I? The remarkable thing in all this is that God seems to get his work done regardless!

I better go home and read "the heart of the artist" I picked it up a while ago, but haven't had the opportunity to read it yet.

Thanks to everyone to invested in this thread, I haven't read one like it in a while.

As an amateur musician myself (rarely paid for playing, and not paid much when I am) I would especially like to hear Todd and the other "professional" musicians give their perspective on this issue.

What a great thread.

Todd, I think you win for best quote when you referred to what to look for in a church.

I just discovered this thread and read it all. Great insights. I have been playing bass for about 16 years, and have been involved in woship teams for about 10 of those years. In college I had the opportunity to play play for many different worship teams. Along the way I have witnessed greatness and mediocrity, but regardless, I have been incredibly blessed to have the opportunity to use the instrument I love to worhsip Jesus.

I agree with much of what has been said here. I belive many churches are hampered by leadership that resists inovation or allows mediocrity, musicians who do not strive for excellence musically and spiritually, and worship teams who exchange worship for performance.

One subtext to this thread that hasn't been discussesed much but seems to have affected alot of folks is the issues of payment of church musicians and wether or not church musicians should be committed members of the church.

I have never recieved payment for any church gig, but I am not against those who have. If a church feels that they can afford it and wants to pay it's members to be on the worship team, then that thier perogative. Paying the worker for his effort is a solid biblical concept.

Many Churches cannot afford to pay musicians, sometimes not even the worship leader. In these cases you can only draw from what you have. However, by choosing appropriate music and only expanding a worship team as musicians become proficient, a good standard of music can be created. Perhaps not perfection, but music of a quality that it's shortcomings do not distract from worship.

My concern arises when church musicians (who are not full or part time worhship ministers) feel "entitled" to payment, or a church feels that it "MUST" have a certain high standard of music, and feels the need to hire musicians from outside the church body of membership. Musicians (even if they are not "leading") are leading the body in worship, and it is vital that those leading the body are "of one mind". Would you let a preacher whose spiritual/doctrinal background was unsure preach in your church? I think not. Why are many churches so ready to use a different standard for the very musicians who lead us in worship? Does hiring outside musicians foster the raising up of individuals in the congregation to serve in worship? How many churches who hire outside musicians screen, interview, pray with and really try to discern the spiritual aspect of those they are hiring?

Now I know their are exceptions. Sometimes a musician gets sick and a replacement may be need to be hired from "outside", special music groups visiting a church, I have heard of worship teams where a spiritually strong core group draws in a new or unbeliver musician as a way of ministering to them, and sometimes an individual will lend his talents to a struggling worhisp team at another church. These are all good exceptions (an I am sure there are more) considering the freedom we have in Christ.

I also worry that churches who use churchmembers in their music minsitry and refuse to hire outside musicians, are unfairly compared to churches who fill the stage with hired guns. Though this speaks to judging a congregation based on it's music which is folly from the start....

Good grief, I seem very negative and quite worrisome don't I? The remarkable thing in all this is that God seems to get his work done regardless!

I better go home and read "the heart of the artist" I picked it up a while ago, but haven't had the opportunity to read it yet.

Thanks to everyone to invested in this thread, I haven't read one like it in a while.

As an amateur musician myself (rarely paid for playing, and not paid much when I am) I would especially like to hear Todd and the other "professional" musicians give their perspective on this issue.

Eilif,

Great post my friend.....

To pay......or not....to pay???

That's a tough one. I could make a reasonable argument for both.

Personally, I've done both.

Whenever possible I've enjoyed "donating" my services... but, a lot of times churches need a certain amount of a "commitment" from their musicians........this I understand....at the same time I still have to feed my family. So, a lot of prayer.....some common sense....and some honest, to the point communication is usually the best answer. (actually, that'll fix a lot of problems :D ) ha!

There are times when I'll need to send a sub because I have several days of work on the line.....so either I have to send a sub, ....OR.....charge enough to compensate for the work I'd be turning down. This is a common dilemma for the professional musician. My experience has been to take it on a case by case basis. Again,....direct communication is the way to go.

I hope this answers your question.......

Remember, I'm looking at this from a "working" professional musicians point of view.......

Wow! What an awesome thread!

I myself have been playing bass for 4 years... started in my Youth Group, because they needed a bassist. Been playing bass and loving it ever since.

I am a college student who doesn't play bass in a band regularly, but I do once in a while in my home church when I go home.


Anyways...
On the topic of Christian Liberties...

A lot of times we hear Christians say that it's not forbidden in the Bible, then they have the freedom to do it. While this is true, I believe that we as Christians should not be concerned about what we can do, but how we can build up one another in unity and love. Why? Because Christ said so.

"And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question to test him. "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?" And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets." Matthew 22:35-40

We see here that as the Lawyer asked Jesus what the greatest commandment was, Jesus answers with this: Love God, and love others.

Therefore, although we may have the liberty to do certain things, if it causes our brothers to stumble and we don't respond accordingly, we are not obeying the greatest commandments.


Todd, I'm a student at UCLA, and would like to meet you sometime! I'm trying to learn new things and new ways to play to honor my God!


Soli Deo Gloria
Benny Wong

Practice Hard, PRAY harder!

Todd,
Thanks for the input and for being candid with all of us. A few more quesitons..

What is your feeling regarding unbelievers in worship teams, and what has your experience been in such situations?

Do you (when finding a sub for church gigs), and the churches you sit in for (looking for musicians), make finding beliving musicians a priority?

Despite my forcefull initial post, I'm still working through these types of issues, and I appreciate the opinions of someone with experience in these areas.

As before I'm also curious as to other professional's opinions/experiences regarding these questions.

I don't think unbelievers should be on worship teams. Worship teams are in a sense leaders. They lead the congragation in worship. You wouldn't have an unbeliever preaching, would you? (Ultimately, what the preacher does is leading people into worship also)

Also, those who are visible (ie: people on stage) to everyone should be a leader in terms of being an example to all. If someone on the worship team is seen on stage worshipping God, but off the stage does wordly things, what does that say about the testimony of a christian? Therefore, I think there should be high requirements for the worship team. In the church I go to here, the worship team has to have the qualifications of a deacon (2 Timothy). Although it's not said in the bible that you HAVE to do this, it is definately wise in my book.

I don't think unbelievers should be on worship teams. Worship teams are in a sense leaders. They lead the congragation in worship. You wouldn't have an unbeliever preaching, would you? (Ultimately, what the preacher does is leading people into worship also)

Also, those who are visible (ie: people on stage) to everyone should be a leader in terms of being an example to all. If someone on the worship team is seen on stage worshipping God, but off the stage does wordly things, what does that say about the testimony of a christian? Therefore, I think there should be high requirements for the worship team. In the church I go to here, the worship team has to have the qualifications of a deacon (2 Timothy). Although it's not said in the bible that you HAVE to do this, it is definately wise in my book.

Great Post, and Good insight.

I agree to that.
but there are some cases when a church is on a deadline for a production or even a regular service, "Its saturday and the drummer wont make it on sunday, we need a quick remedy" kinda of situations.

Having a drummer or not is not the problem. Remember that it's not about the music. Play without a drummer. Sure it might not sound as good, but principles are principles.

Having a drummer or not is not the problem. Remember that it's not about the music. Play without a drummer. Sure it might not sound as good, but principles are principles.
God can move in a situation when we trust Him and don't compromise His Word. I wouldn't want to jeopardize the true move of God for enhanced musicianship.

It's going to be hard to qualify someone for worshiping in spirit and in truth, who doesn't have the Spirit and who hasn't accepted the truth.

Rom 10:14
How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?

Rom 10:17

Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.

On the other hand, sometimes the only way to get a non-believing musician where they will hear the good news could be to invite them to fill in or maybe even play in a worship situation.

In the fellowship I belong to, only believers are allowed in any kind of ministry. However, several of the people that are in the worship ministry there, were unbelievers in a local church that is what you may call "liberal".

About fifteen years ago I was in a state of rebellion, backsliding (God pulling me along while I dragged my back-side). I knew the truth but had fallen away.

One day I recieved a call from the former wife of a sax player I had gigged with years before that. She belonged to a church (denomination not relevant here) and they had decided that their attendance had plateaued at 200, or whatever the number was. They (that church) researched that the way to break that number was to have a "contemporary" service! I know that as believers this is hard to imagine but, without so much as a prayer about it they voted to do just that, and had enlisted a number of musicians in their flock to play in the contemporary worship band. All they lacked was a bass player :eyebrow: .

This woman volunteered "I know a bass player"! (That was me) So she asked me if I would fill in til they found one from their midst to take over. I graciously agreed to fill in for a couple of months until my replacement was found. Imediately the music struck a chord in my heart (no pun intended) and I made fast friends with some really nice, religious people. Well, I played every Sunday for five years there. :)

After about that time had passed I went to a "Promise Keepers" rally in Syracuse, NY with a few of the guys from that church. The first night the whole thinng blew me away. (6,000 guys singing "How Great Thou Art" is a pretty powerful thing). Then the speaker said (roughly) "...being a Christian isn't about not falling down, it's getting back up and going on..." at any rate God reached down and touched me! I will never be the same again.

When I and a couple of the others that attended returned to that liberal church it just wasn't the same for us anymore. We started witnessing and praying spontaniously. Sharing the reality of Christ in that atmosphere that was far from Spirit filled as far as the official church went. The guitar player and I had become great friends, he had even hired my in his secular band, and I couldn't stop talking about the Lord to him. Side note: after one of our praise band concerts the leader anounced that if you liked what you heard here you can go up the road to an unnamed bar where the guitar player and I were playing after our worship concert and hear us play aome more. :eyebrow:

ok... it's getting late so I'll wrap this up quickly...

My guitar player friend, his wife, two of the singers and their spouses all have found the Lord and we actually all left at about the same time to attend the gospel preaching church that we are all still at and all active in the worship team almost 9 years later.

I guess it goes back to - God showed me that He really can work where He wants to, even in a liberal church where the gospel is not preached or taught. Where prayer is an afterthought if you really think it will make you feel better.

Unbelievers can become believers when they're exposed to the truth.

I guess that is off the thrust of the real topic here. As I said, we would not knowingly have people in the worship team that aren't believers. It just won't be done because light has no fellowship with darkness. But God shines in the darkness! PTL! or I wouldn't be here today.

I'm getting really sleepy! God bless and nite nite! :bassist:

Having a drummer or not is not the problem. Remember that it's not about the music. Play without a drummer. Sure it might not sound as good, but principles are principles.

i totally agree, in fact this happened to one of the worship teams that i play on two sundays ago. my mom (who is the head worship leader at my church and its her month to lead on sundays) got a call from our drummer on sunday morning saying that he was sick and couldn't make it. no time to get a replacement and we had to play without a drummer. it wasn't that bad, but it would have been nice to have the drummer.

also i have a request for prayer: the leader of the youth worship team at our church just had to step down due to his moving to another town. i am praying and considering taking his posistion as the leader of the team, but not as the person that leads (if you know what i mean, i would be in change, but not be the one singing). if this is what God wants for me ill galdly do it, i have soneone in mind to do the actual singing so that wont be a problem. also can anyone give me any advice about being the leader from this perspective? thanks

lowsound

I agree to that.
but there are some cases when a church is on a deadline for a production or even a regular service, "Its saturday and the drummer wont make it on sunday, we need a quick remedy" kinda of situations.

I heard that is how Stanley Clark came up with Slap & POP, at CHURCH and the Drummer didn't show up...:bassist:

I heard something similar, but it was about Larry Graham, the drummer quitting, when he was doing a gig with his Mom before S&TFS (not in church, though).

Louis Johnson also claimed to have come up with that style independently, not knowing about Graham.

I heard something similar, but it was about Larry Graham, the drummer quitting, when he was doing a gig with his Mom before S&TFS (not in church, though).

Louis Johnson also claimed to have come up with that style independently, not knowing about Graham.

Actually it was my cousin CLEOFUS, who started the style, but it wasn't on a Bass it was on a Ukulele... Okay.. that's not true and adds nothing to the conversation... sorry.... now I know why mama said I was slow...:scowl:

the drummer is just an example... it could be any instrument.

In my experience, I had played with musician in the church who doesnt share the same faith as the rest of us, the flow was great. I ve even invited some musicians who i play with in clubs and cafe's to play at churches i play with, for me that was the chance they had to listen to the message and to feel the love that the christian family has.

I do believe that musicians who play at the church should be christians but there are some situations that calls for hiring.

and in my statement earlier, i said productions and not regular church services. (eg church concerts, anniversary musicals etc.)

Actually it was my cousin CLEOFUS, who started the style

Stanley's still the most awesome slapper I've seen play, no offense to Cleofus...
:D

BTW (this is not really OT), have you seen what folks are posting (http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=226066) about Todd's instructional DVD? I'm definitely going to pick it up.

BTW (this is not really OT), have you seen what folks are posting (http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=226066) about Todd's instructional DVD? I'm definitely going to pick it up.

I have... scraping up my pennies to order a copy...

Having a drummer or not is not the problem. Remember that it's not about the music. Play without a drummer. Sure it might not sound as good, but principles are principles.
It's quite a pickle, to be sure.

On the one hand, you don't want to fill your worship team with worldly musicians. On the other, the worship team experience might be the one way that they could get into church. A third perspective is the responsibility that you have to the congregation to present music that can most easily allow them to worship.

The first perspective has been explored a little already. I'd also like to add that sometimes having a non-Christian involved heavily in the "production" of church activities can drag everyone else down spiritually. Some guy who's playing just because you've promised him $50 isn't probably going to care about the spiritual elements in place and will only care about his own priorities - be it the music, or his aesthetic performance, or whatever.

I have personally had a lot of success from the second perspective, however. I've had the pleasure of seeing non-Christians get saved over being involved in a praise team, as well as lukewarm Christians becoming fired up again. Typically (especially if there is no money involved), the only musicians who will accept my invitation to play at church are those whose hearts and minds are open to the church to begin with. Sometimes they're just waiting for someone to have a little faith in them.

And finally, if it's the night before and the drummer comes down with the flu, I'm going to do everything I can to find a warm body to place behind that set. This third perspective leaves me responsible to present a set of music that at worst won't distract from worship, and at best will actually facilitate deeper worship from the congregation. Throwing a curve ball at the praise team ("Hey, no drummer this week, guys, so let's make this sound acoustic!") is not always the wisest choice. Yes, sometimes you can make it work, and sometimes God works mightily through that, but who's to say that God can't work through a one-time opening for a sit-in drummer?

The biggest thing is being in tune with God, and knowing what He would have me to do. If I get a sense that it's an excuse to do an acoustic worship set, then so be it. I know that God will be with the team, and everyone will be blessed. If I get a sense that I need to call that heavy metal goth drummer that I randomly met and talked with at GC a month before, then (against my "better" judgement, of course), I'll get on the phone. I know that God will be with the situation, and maybe all He wanted was for me to call and offer, be turned down, and plant that seed. I don't know. But God does.

That's why I'm very careful in using blanket "standards" when it comes to things like that. To me it feels like manmade impositions on God's power.

Here are few possible solutions that could help in such a situation... I believe in being proactive, ofcourse I don't believe that unsaved
people should be able to participate in any aspect of ministry... except filling a seat and being a part of the congregation.

The same as I think someone said, you wouldn't invite a motivational speaker to bring a word to the congregation, if they are not saved, so goes the music.

Anyway...

Suggestion One: Start an apprentice program, find people who are apart of the body, and would be interested in learning an instrument. Let them attend practice and learn behind the drummer, keyboard player, etc. and learn. THis will take some time to get these folks up to speed, but in a few years you would have a warm body atleast in this situation.

Suggestion Two: Rent a Drum Machine if the Drummer is out, and you can't get a born-again worshipper to play. A programmed drum, is better than no drum. This could also work with other musicians, record song tracks, that would fill in in the times of need, hopefully these tracks wouldn't have to be used..often so this would be used only in a pickle.

My questions would be... Is Music Ministry? Can the unsaved Minister?

:hiding:

I was a product of the apprentice program :P

Here are few possible solutions that could help in such a situation... I believe in being proactive, ofcourse I don't believe that unsaved
people should be able to participate in any aspect of ministry... except filling a seat and being a part of the congregation.

The same as I think someone said, you wouldn't invite a motivational speaker to bring a word to the congregation, if they are not saved, so goes the music.

Anyway...

Suggestion One: Start an apprentice program, find people who are apart of the body, and would be interested in learning an instrument. Let them attend practice and learn behind the drummer, keyboard player, etc. and learn. THis will take some time to get these folks up to speed, but in a few years you would have a warm body atleast in this situation.

Suggestion Two: Rent a Drum Machine if the Drummer is out, and you can't get a born-again worshipper to play. A programmed drum, is better than no drum. This could also work with other musicians, record song tracks, that would fill in in the times of need, hopefully these tracks wouldn't have to be used..often so this would be used only in a pickle.

My questions would be... Is Music Ministry? Can the unsaved Minister?

:hiding:

the drum machine would never work in my church, same with recording parts incase someone couldn't be there. every single time we play a song it goes differently, we have never played a song note for note as it is written. a lot of the time we move into prophetic worship where we go where we feel led. IMO its the best way to do worship, i would never be in a worship team where we played songs note for note, keep it loose and see what happens

lowsound

Give me the blue-haired old lady with a screeching wavery soprano voice and an accordion accompaniment as long as God's presence is in it. If it's anointed, you'll see everybody worshiping regardless. Beats the London philharmonic with the Adelines, if all they have is natural talent. If we had some production planned, and someone got sick, well, you pray and let God be God. He'll provide, and what He doesn't provide, well, who needs it. As long as God shows up, we're good!

Boy oh boy did this one get of track!


Well I play at my church too, and I love it. It's been so valuable. First off, we don't play your typical contempory church music. Our music director happens to be a fairly prolific modern composer, Fred Frahm. We never rehearse, but rather all read off chord charts like a Jazz combo. We also do a lot of modern music and freestyle improv where he just goes on the Piano and I follow. It's one of the best musical experiences I've ever had. Because if it, I can jump in to a band ANYWHERE and play ANYTHING. After nearly 2 years in the church, I feel I could accel in any kind of playing.

By the way, Gospel music is where it's at. I'm constantly checking the christian channels on TV to see if I can catch one of those amazing gospel bassists in the act.

Someone gave me a Martha Munizzi DVD, and I got Fred Hammond and Kirk Franklin CDs lately.

Challenging stuff (for me).

Give me the blue-haired old lady with a screeching wavery soprano voice and an accordion accompaniment as long as God's presence is in it. If it's anointed, you'll see everybody worshiping regardless. Beats the London philharmonic with the Adelines, if all they have is natural talent. If we had some production planned, and someone got sick, well, you pray and let God be God. He'll provide, and what He doesn't provide, well, who needs it. As long as God shows up, we're good!
Here's the thing, exactly. Let God be God.

But if God drops Tommy Lee on your church steps saying, "For some reason I felt like I needed to come in here and I brought sticks..." are you seriously going to tell him no?

Are you going to put God into a little box and say He can use THESE people to minister but not THESE people? I will completely agree that your musicians are in somewhat of a leadership role, but I have an issue with asking people as they walk into the door of the choir room if they've been born again. I've known many people who have been involved with church and church ministry for a long time before God has moved in their hearts and they accepted Christ.

For crying out loud, we're talking about a God who ministered to Balaam through a TALKING DONKEY. I don't think the donkey had any particular thoughts about salvation, and yet God used him.

Anyway, I want to stop myself before I really start to rant. My point is, yes, have a guideline, but if and when God moves, don't let your man-made guidelines stand in the way.

Discussing complex issues on the internet is 2 outs, 2 strikes, bottom of the ninth from the first post.

This is an issue better explored in person, and we can't do that, but I pray God will continue to bless and direct you in every way as you serve him. Be blessed, bro!

My church gave me the chance to be the full time Bass player 8 months ago. Before I was the fill in guy when the regular guy could not attend. When I got the call and was asked If I would like to be the full time guy I wanted to say no because I am really not very good and I did'nt want to bring down the quality of the music. After 8 months of Practice on Thursday night and Playing Sunday mornings I have become much better I still have a long way to go but the progress is amazing to me. I am so thankful to God for opening this door in my life. We play mainly modern current worship songs ( Chris Tomlin, Third day, Mercy me , ) Stuff like that. With a few traditinal songs once in a while.

Congratualations Axe. That's exciting news. :hyper:

After 8 months of Practice on Thursday night and Playing Sunday mornings I have become much better I still have a long way to go but the progress is amazing to me.
I'm convinced there's something about practising/playing with others that you'll never get from room practise.

I'm convinced there's something about practising/playing with others that you'll never get from room practise.


Ideally a balance of individual practice/preparation AND performance/rehearsal is the way to go.

We all REALLY need both.

.....and a balance of both is the key!! :bassist:

Getting more rehearsal time for the church team has always been the biggest challenge, at my church anyway.

In the meantime, in order to enhance my room practice experience, I've ordered your Technique Builders DVD, and I gotta say, I'M STOKED!:bassist:

But if God drops Tommy Lee on your church steps saying, "For some reason I felt like I needed to come in here and I brought sticks..." are you seriously going to tell him no?



heck yes we would tell him no. For the same reason that our former worship leader was forced to step down because it was discovered that he was having an affair with a member of the worship team. Musicians are spritual leaders of the church, they are up on stage at our church for more time than the pastor. You can't have people thinking that they are just playing music, they are minisering, leading, and teaching. At our church the musicians are held to as a high a standard as the pastor, no exceptions.

so how are you gonna reach out for tommy lee?

so how are you gonna reach out for tommy lee?


you minister to him, teach him, be his friend, but the band is not there to bring people into the church by letting them play. the band is there to lead worship. Once you establish yourself as a mature christian and leader, then you get to be a minister.

According to your logic the best way to reach Bin Laden is to let him deliver a sermon at our church.

you think tommy lee would like you to tell him about church, you think he would listen?I dont know the guy, but there are some few people that are less known than tommy lee and wouldnt even bother to talk to a preacher. and how are you gonna be his friend if you do not talk about music or even play music with him.
you think bin laden would sit in a church pew and listen to a sermon?

I might come out harsh on writing, but thats not what i meant to express
Im not posting and arguement or debate. I just think that God uses different events to reach out to these people, sometimes people's biggest interest can actually be an open door to show God's love and share the good word.

I don't know what kind of church you go to, but in my church we don't use participation in the band as an outreach tool. The musicians are ministers, and you don't bring in people to minister that are not firm in their faith.

In a forum this wide, you're going to get people who believe disparate things, even the basis of Christian tenets. The church on a whole, is quite fragmented. I could go farther, but I won't.

I don't want Todd to be forced to close the thread. I really have enjoyed having a thread like this open so long. In another subforum it would have been nuked long ago.

We might want to consider taking Todd's advice to heart right about now. I really don't think it's the fact that we discuss doctrine or doctrinal differences. It's when someone wants to rant or flame or gets offended over it that kills the ability to discuss it. Invariably, someone is going to get emotional enough to kill the thread. Should we continue, or should we limit the discussion to practical helps?

I'd rather have some discussion than none. I don't think anyone who disagrees with me doctrinally is going to change their mind based on my different view, anyway. What do you think?

I don't know what kind of church you go to, but in my church we don't use participation in the band as an outreach tool. The musicians are ministers, and you don't bring in people to minister that are not firm in their faith.
I can totally see your point here, and I didn't mean to stir up a lot of trouble with my Tommy Lee example. All I'm saying is that we shouldn't limit God.

One of the big problems that the church has been facing for years is the negative aspects of being SO exclusive. Yes, we must hold our leaders up to a high standard, but what of that quiet acoustic guitar playing teenager next door who wouldn't step FOOT inside of a church unless he was asked to play?

I don't know on this topic. I trust that God can continue to lead me as accurately as possible. And I don't look forward to the day when I have to ask someone on my team to step down...

Actually, from your post (especially the bit about your leader being asked to step down), I was curious about what was required of my own position. So I pull out my job description. Nothing about a Christian lifestyle, or even being a believer for that matter... Surely there's something elsewhere in the church bylaws talking about moral and spiritual conduct of church leadership... but I don't know about it. I'll have to have a chat sometime with the pastor - I'm curious now.

This is all very interesting. I must admit, I've never seen ALL the members of the praise team as leadership (the praise team leader, certainly), just like I don't consider choir members to necessarily be church leaders - or even organists or pianists. They often ARE church leaders, but that's because they are deacons or elders or what have you. Not because they play an instrument during the service.

In larger churches, perhaps you can restrict membership in the praise team or in the church choir or whatever to the most "deserving" Christians (:eyebrow:), but most small churches welcome everyone - church member or not. Believer or not.

I dunno. It's an interesting topic.

I seem to have started a strand of this thread that has hit some nerves. I have enjoyed reading what has been said about this topic. Some more thoughts...

I think it comes down to whether or not someone believes that serving in ministry is restricted to believers or not.

I admit that I am conflicted about the issue. I would usually say no, but I wouldn't bar an unbeliver from joining in helping at a soup kitchen, or helping to build a habitat house, so where do we draw the line?

Due to the spiritual nature of worship, I would limit the leading of worship to belivers dedicated to the church. I confess that this is a shaky ground, because asside from it being easier to "feel" spiritual, what makes worshiping God with music more "spiritual" than worshiping God through other acts of service? (an area where I am more comfortable with unbeliver participation)

For me it comes down to spiritual leadership. I belive that worship team members are instrumental (pardon the pun) as "leaders" in the worship experience, and as such should be believers.

Exceptions are made, as we do have alot of freedom in Christ, but it is my opinion (just an opinion) that in many cases the hiring of unbeliving musicians shows either a lack of theology and/or thought about the issue, or a situation where the "quality" of the worship music has become more important than the spiritual integrity of the music.

If we could agree not to flame and/or attack them, I would love to hear more about what those who attend churches that hire/allow unbeliving musicians say about the practice.

Is it based on wanting to minister to unbelievers in this way?

Has the issue simply not been raiesed as a theological one?

Or is it based on wanting to give the best possible performance for God?

Hi Guys,

Please be careful with this thread......we're on the verge of me having to acutally "moderate" and I'd rather not. PLEASE be nice to one another. Many thanks!!!

Also.........while I love the Lord.....and the subject matter...(brilliant discussion by the way).....I'm under the impression that this is the "ask Todd Johnson" forum..... it's kind of gotten away from that.

We might consider taking the discussion to another part of the website???.........or????

I'm NOT trying to be a drag.......I just want to keep things civil........and on subject....

Please let me know how I can serve you all effectively!!

In Him,

Hi Guys,

Please be careful with this thread......we're on the verge of me having to acutally "moderate" and I'd rather not. PLEASE be nice to one another. Many thanks!!!

Also.........while I love the Lord.....and the subject matter...(brilliant discussion by the way).....I'm under the impression that this is the "ask Todd Johnson" forum..... it's kind of gotten away from that.

We might consider taking the discussion to another part of the website???.........or????

I'm NOT trying to be a drag.......I just want to keep things civil........and on subject....

Please let me know how I can serve you all effectively!!

In Him,
What's your opinion on all this, Todd? lol...

Due to the spiritual nature of worship, I would limit the leading of worship to belivers dedicated to the church. I confess that this is a shaky ground, because asside from it being easier to "feel" spiritual, what makes worshiping God with music more "spiritual" than worshiping God through other acts of service? (an area where I am more comfortable with unbeliver participation)

For me it comes down to spiritual leadership. I belive that worship team members are instrumental (pardon the pun) as "leaders" in the worship experience, and as such should be believers.

What about choir members? Should we require that everyone that sings in the choir be a member of the church and a believer? Everyone in the youth choir? How can we draw the line?

Frankly, how often do we sit people down and ask, "Have you accepted Jesus into your heart?" Don't we just assume if one is going to church, and especially if they're heavily involved in church activities, they MUST be believers? Heck, toward the end of my junior year of high school, we elected one of the strongest Christians in our school president of the FCA. Summer between junior and senior year, he actually got saved at summer camp. Why didn't we know? We didn't ask.

Also.........while I love the Lord.....and the subject matter...(brilliant discussion by the way).....I'm under the impression that this is the "ask Todd Johnson" forum..... it's kind of gotten away from that.

We might consider taking the discussion to another part of the website???.........or????
If there was another spot on the forum where this could be discussed, it would be- there seems to be enough interest. That's why it's happened in your forum, I think, despite not really being on topic!

If there was another spot on the forum where this could be discussed, it would be- there seems to be enough interest. That's why it's happened in your forum, I think, despite not really being on topic!

Yes most forums, don't allow theological discussions, I think this is why this thread has been so...read.

In my opinion its impossible to talk about the "Church of the Living God" and not talk about theology and beliefs.. As Christians our lives just naturally gravitate towards such topics...... oh well...it was definately stimulating discussion while it lasted.

Ive read the whole thread in one sitting, and tho its gotten quite far from the topic, i believe there's a lot to be learned here, and since the discussion has been civil (so far), why dont you let it run out?

i for one, play bass in a church where musicians are strongly encouraged to be baptised if they are above 18 (the age we believe they can make their own decisions). it has been very interesting reading this thread, because i would never have thought of having non-believers play in the band, or even having the musicians paid. it just simply never occurred to me. we have a roster of musicians, no one is paid, not even the worship leader or the deacons.

this thread makes me think. if a non-believing drummer popped up at our rehearsal with his sticks, in a daze, (and our drummer was miraculously sick) and said, "i dont know what brought me here, but here i am", im not sure what i'd do. or the church would do. i think its a worthy topic to be discussed.

i believe we shouldn't box God in. he has always provided musicians for us, when we needed them. and He can turn everything for good. lets show some of His love in this thread!

:D

Aaron

i would never have thought of having non-believers play in the bandI believe one of the church's main responsibilities to lead corporate worship for its people and guests. It is a holy task and not to be taken lightly. Those leading worship and anyone who is part of the worship program, including the music team, share this responsibility. The music team is part of the worship team.

Non-believers cannot bring people to a worship experience where they themselves have not been. It is not just another gig to join. We hope that they one day will become believers and worshipers and, one day, be part of the worship team.

God will honor your worship if you do without rather than getting a non-worshiper to substitute.

There are many other exciting avenues for reaching out to non-believing musicians.

I believe one of the church's main responsibilities to lead corporate worship for its people and guests. It is a holy task and not to be taken lightly. Those leading worship and anyone who is part of the worship program, including the music team, share this responsibility. The music team is part of the worship team.

Non-believers cannot bring people to a worship experience where they themselves have not been. It is not just another gig to join. We hope that they one day will become believers and worshipers and, one day, be part of the worship team.

God will honor your worship if you do without rather than getting a non-worshiper to substitute.

There are many other exciting avenues for reaching out to non-believing musicians.

And the Church...said..."Amen"

I believe one of the church's main responsibilities to lead corporate worship for its people and guests. It is a holy task and not to be taken lightly. Those leading worship and anyone who is part of the worship program, including the music team, share this responsibility. The music team is part of the worship team.

Non-believers cannot bring people to a worship experience where they themselves have not been. It is not just another gig to join. We hope that they one day will become believers and worshipers and, one day, be part of the worship team.

God will honor your worship if you do without rather than getting a non-worshiper to substitute.

There are many other exciting avenues for reaching out to non-believing musicians.
And once again, the church falls back into a members-only club. Is that what we want? I mean, if you've got a 15 year old who's amazing at drums but he comes to youth group just to hang out with friends, are you going to exclude him from playing? Are you going to push him away and say, "Sorry, pal, you need to be dunked under some water before we can let you join the ranks of the elite worship team?"

Here's my most recent story. Our church was without a drummer, and we simply were not getting the kind of worship we wanted. We were using a couple of high schoolers to fill in here and there, but nobody was willing to do it full time. So one of my singers calls me the day before service, telling me that she had found a guy, Jerry*, who was interested in drumming. I told her I had a drummer lined up for the weekend, but that he should come so I could meet him.

Long story short, he showed up, liked the service a lot, and joined ranks. That was almost a year ago. Turns out he was Catholic and a science teacher - an interesting combination, to be sure. The Catholic church had turned their backs on him because he had married a non-Catholic woman, and he had turned his back on the church. Had I said, "Sorry, pal," he would still be there with his back turned to God. FWIW, he and his family just joined the church last week.

We are called to be open and loving, right? And it may be that leading worship might have to take a back seat to loving sometimes. Don't get me wrong. I'm not going to ask my acquaintance Matt*, who flagrantly enjoys promiscuous activities to step in and play guitar in some halfwitted attempt to minister. But if God is working on someone's heart and my role in God's ministry is to let them sit in with the band, I'm certainly not going to push God out of the way in lieu of my own "rules".

You guys still haven't answered me in regards to if all choir members should be baptised believers.

For what it's worth, do you think that all church leaders should be members of the church? I know I'm not. Our youth minister isn't. My singer and bassist aren't. I'm pretty sure at least one of our soundguys isn't.

Here's what it comes down to. God has His own "rules"- a pretty big book full of them. I prefer the term principle, as a principle can be applied to life's situations, whereas what we call rules are usually the specific application of a principle.

Those principles have to be backed by Scripture, and not just one. And the Scripture has to be rightly divided- we need God's spirit to lead us into the truth. People misinterpret the Word more often than not. The best way to rightly divide is to live a life of obedience. No one in the flesh knows it all. God will honor obedience, but someone with their own agenda will be frustrated trying to follow God, and end up in error.

To try to discuss this sort of question without going to the Word is just futile.

You've raised what are to me a couple of very interesting points.

And once again, the church falls back into a members-only club. Is that what we want?

First off, yes... the church is a members-only club. "The church" being the group of people that have trusted in Jesus Christ's atoning death for salvation from the penalty of sin. Sorry for the wordiness (but there's more coming). This is something that bothered me about the last place I attended. According to Hebrews 10:24,25 (http://everything2.com/index.pl?node=Hebrews%2010) the church exists for the edification of believers (see also Ephesians 5:19 (http://everything2.com/index.pl?node=Ephesians%205) and Colossians 3:16 (http://everything2.com/index.pl?node=Colossians%203)). Should the church reach out to those who are not believers? Absolutely. But our responsibility to non-believers is to spread the good news - the gospel. It is not to evangelize morality. Morality is useless to a non-believer. It is not to convict them of sin or even to convince them of the truth of the gospel - that is the ministry of the Holy Spirit (holy ghost for you KJVers). So the primary reason we gather together is to strengthen one another as believers. But that is not by any means the whole ministry of the church. It's just that much/most of the outreach occurs outside of Sunday-school and the worship services. By all means - people who do not believe should come to learn, don't misunderstand me. But to actually be part of the "church", you must be a believer.


We are called to be open and loving, right?


Yep.


For what it's worth, do you think that all church leaders should be members of the church? I know I'm not. Our youth minister isn't. My singer and bassist aren't. I'm pretty sure at least one of our soundguys isn't.

You're referring to the "other church" here. By that I mean the administrative entity formalized in order to deal with the outside world. A corporation in many ways, and sometimes, in fact (some churches are incorporated). But as a believer, you are part of the greater church - the whole body of believers.
Do you need to be a member of the local congregation where you are a musician? I would encourage it. Scripturally required... no.

Sorry I've been out of the loop lately.

God has blessed me with an extremely full and busy schedule.

My thanks go out to all of you. The discussion is very cool....

Again,.....just play nice with each other....OK?? Thanks.

FWIW, I've seen both sides of this discussion first hand......where it's very strict about "who" serves on a worship team. I think we can all see the obvious point of having "saved" worship musicians leading worship.......Cool.

But, I've had "several" unsaved musician friends of mine wind up subbing at a church etc...........hearing the Word.....then wind up being saved. PTL for that.

It's a delicate subject........

Sorry this is so short...........I'm totally CRANKED through Sunday night. I'm blessed to be working every night with a great vocalist and piano player named Kate Reid. Check her out at www.katereidmusic.com .

Anyway........I'm going to be out until MONDAY.

Be good to one another. Thanks in advance.

In Him,

You guys still haven't answered me in regards to if all choir members should be baptised believers.
For what it's worth, do you think that all church leaders should be members of the church?
According to Scripture, baptism is a public declaration of your belief and identification with Christ. Can choir members lead worship without declaring their belief and identification with Christ? Sounds reasonable but it’s a personal decision they each must make. Can the church stipulate only baptized believers can be in the choir? Yes, because they’re the leaders. However, from what I’ve read in Scripture, baptism is a decision, not a requirement.

Leaders should be members. Why would you commit to lead something you didn’t belong to? Would you belong to something to which its leaders don’t belong?

Leaders should be members. Why would you commit to lead something you didn’t belong to? Would you belong to something to which its leaders don’t belong?
Mere semantics. I choose not to join this church because I don't totally agree with the denomination's beliefs. Although the church itself is much more inline with my own beliefs, I don't want to attach myself to the denomination (or any denomination, for that matter).

Church membership has nothing to do with belonging. I pay my tithes like a member, I serve like a member, I'm even on committees like a member. The only thing I (usually) refrain from is voting in church business.

All church membership gives you is a line in a ledger somewhere.

On the issue of baptism, I submit that it's not so much a decision as much as a response to a command. The only decision is whether to obey or not. But that's not really what I meant to ask about, nor is it a topic that should be debated here.

Do you really see the choir members as church leaders BECAUSE they are choir members? Maybe it's just a difference of how I was brought up in the church. I saw the pastor as a leader, the worship leader as a leader, and usually the pianist (if he/she sang). Everybody else - choir, band, soloists, etc - I saw as no different than myself.

in my youth music ministry, the musicians under me are young - 12 to 18 year olds - and all of them are learning the word, yet many are too young to have made the decision to give their lives to Christ. yet we allow them to play. firstly because if they feel that they have the heart to serve, we believe we shouldnt jump on in simply because they havent given their lives to Christ. we also have very little way of telling who's made the decision and who hasn't.

actually, to those who come from churches which require musicians to be members/baptised/qualified-as-deacons, or who personally believe so, after thinking about it- (and this includes me)

a point to think about. when you've backslided/hit a rough patch, and feel you're so far from God that you dont even feel like going to church, will you still play? or will you step down citing that reason? would you apply the same action on a non-believer?

this is all for thinking's sake, and IMHO.

a point to think about. when you've backslided/hit a rough patch, and feel you're so far from God that you dont even feel like going to church, will you still play? or will you step down citing that reason? would you apply the same action on a non-believer?
Can God still minister through us even when we don't feel like being ministers?

Hi Guys,

Sorry I've been out of the loop lately. God has kept me extremely busy with and ABUNDANCE of gigs, traveling and TAXES!!!

I'm all caught up now and should be in the loop for another week or two before things get hectic all over again!!

Anyway.......

My compliments to you all for your:

* thoughtfullness

* your insight

* your respect and courtesy for one another

* your thirst for improvement

* your thirst for genuine WORSHIP

* your love for our Lord

Thanks to you all for having such a great discussion and exchange of ideas.....yet keeping it civil, respectful and encouraging.

Well done gentlemen!!!

Your humble servant,

"I also hear/see a TON of folks who mean well.....but are lacking in preparation, practice, musicianship skills etc. They're not bringing their best "offering" to the altar.... To me, so much of the music has been dumbed down to the point that it's really frustrating....But, as Christians, we are called to a higher standard.....we're called to bring GOD our best....please don't misunderstand me.There is also some great music out there that glorifies God......in a variety of styles.....I guess I wish there were more of it."

This made me think at once of a quote from Jacques Maritain:

"There is no style PECULIAR to religious art, there is no RELIGIOUS TECHNIQUE. Anyone who believes in the existence of a religious technique is on the high road to heresy. If it is true that not all styles are alike suited to sacred art, it is still more true that sacred art cannot isolate itself, that it must, at all times, following the example of God Himself who speaks the language of men, assume, the while exalting them from within, every means and every form of technical vitality, so to speak, placed at its disposal by the contemporary generation.
There are nevertheless two conditions, I think, in the technical order necessary to religious art as such, granted its special object and the purpose it is intended to serve.
1. It must be INTELLIGIBLE. For it is there above all for the instruction of the people. An unintelligible, obscure religious art is about as absurd as a house without a staircase or a cathedral without a porch.
2. The work must be FINISHED. I do not mean finished in the academic sense, but in the most material and humble meaning of the word. It is in the highest degree fitting that nothing shall enter the house of God but work which is well done, accomplished, clean, permanent and honest. This must clearly be understood according to the peculiar style of the work and the means taken to achieve it, but the ease with which in our day artists are satisfied with themselves compels me to insist upon this point."

From Maritain's "Art and Scholasticism" (1924). A thought-provoking book worth searching out.

"I also hear/see a TON of folks who mean well.....but are lacking in preparation, practice, musicianship skills etc. They're not bringing their best "offering" to the altar.... To me, so much of the music has been dumbed down to the point that it's really frustrating....But, as Christians, we are called to a higher standard.....we're called to bring GOD our best....please don't misunderstand me.There is also some great music out there that glorifies God......in a variety of styles.....I guess I wish there were more of it."

This made me think at once of a quote from Jacques Maritain:

"There is no style PECULIAR to religious art, there is no RELIGIOUS TECHNIQUE. Anyone who believes in the existence of a religious technique is on the high road to heresy. If it is true that not all styles are alike suited to sacred art, it is still more true that sacred art cannot isolate itself, that it must, at all times, following the example of God Himself who speaks the language of men, assume, the while exalting them from within, every means and every form of technical vitality, so to speak, placed at its disposal by the contemporary generation.
There are nevertheless two conditions, I think, in the technical order necessary to religious art as such, granted its special object and the purpose it is intended to serve.
1. It must be INTELLIGIBLE. For it is there above all for the instruction of the people. An unintelligible, obscure religious art is about as absurd as a house without a staircase or a cathedral without a porch.
2. The work must be FINISHED. I do not mean finished in the academic sense, but in the most material and humble meaning of the word. It is in the highest degree fitting that nothing shall enter the house of God but work which is well done, accomplished, clean, permanent and honest. This must clearly be understood according to the peculiar style of the work and the means taken to achieve it, but the ease with which in our day artists are satisfied with themselves compels me to insist upon this point."

From Maritain's "Art and Scholasticism" (1924). A thought-provoking book worth searching out.

While I agree that preparation and giving God the very best we have avaliable should be our focus, much can be said, about the anointing of God flowing through, when the music, isn't quite top notch... I have seen it time and time again.

much can be said, about the anointing of God flowing through, when the music, isn't quite top notch... I have seen it time and time again.
I always seem to play a little better, and it flows easier under a stronger anointing, but the attention is less on the music at the same time. There's just no competing with God's presence!

I always seem to play a little better, and it flows easier under a stronger anointing, but the attention is less on the music at the same time. There's just no competing with God's presence!
Already! (That's Texas Slang for AMEN ;) )

"I also hear/see a TON of folks who mean well.....but are lacking in preparation, practice, musicianship skills etc. They're not bringing their best "offering" to the altar.... To me, so much of the music has been dumbed down to the point that it's really frustrating....But, as Christians, we are called to a higher standard.....we're called to bring GOD our best....please don't misunderstand me.There is also some great music out there that glorifies God......in a variety of styles.....I guess I wish there were more of it."

This made me think at once of a quote from Jacques Maritain:

"There is no style PECULIAR to religious art, there is no RELIGIOUS TECHNIQUE. Anyone who believes in the existence of a religious technique is on the high road to heresy. If it is true that not all styles are alike suited to sacred art, it is still more true that sacred art cannot isolate itself, that it must, at all times, following the example of God Himself who speaks the language of men, assume, the while exalting them from within, every means and every form of technical vitality, so to speak, placed at its disposal by the contemporary generation.
There are nevertheless two conditions, I think, in the technical order necessary to religious art as such, granted its special object and the purpose it is intended to serve.
1. It must be INTELLIGIBLE. For it is there above all for the instruction of the people. An unintelligible, obscure religious art is about as absurd as a house without a staircase or a cathedral without a porch.
2. The work must be FINISHED. I do not mean finished in the academic sense, but in the most material and humble meaning of the word. It is in the highest degree fitting that nothing shall enter the house of God but work which is well done, accomplished, clean, permanent and honest. This must clearly be understood according to the peculiar style of the work and the means taken to achieve it, but the ease with which in our day artists are satisfied with themselves compels me to insist upon this point."

From Maritain's "Art and Scholasticism" (1924). A thought-provoking book worth searching out.

Hi Thunderpulse!!

WOW......me.... and a French philosopher.... WOW!!!

I'm not EVEN that smart.......

He uses some pretty big words..... me use simple ones! ;)

Thanks though for your generous words..... very kind of you.

I just want to please God..... HELP!!:D

Hi guys, oh yeah, and Todd, :)
It has been a pleasure to read most of this thread. These are questions and issues we all deal with at some point. The church my family attends and where I play is really doing worship effectively, and I just wanted to share a few of the things that are working. Please do not read this as saying these ideas are right and others are wrong. I'm not coming at it that way at all. It is a joy to serve at this church. We have outgrown our facilities in the last year, and it seems that our efforts have really been blessed.

Our guiding principle is that life is worship. Music is a subset of worship (and an important one), but everything we do is worship. Worship does not start on Sunday at 9am and end at 10am. Our pastor did a series on worship last year. My favorite quote was that the moon worships Him just by shining and doesn't even have to spike the football and yell "praise Jesus" to let everyone know. :) Bassists and other musicians worship by laying it down for the Lord, yielding any personal glory to His glory.

We focus on "unified worship" for our services- pulling any and all music, not to mention other forms of expression, into a service to create the space for people to approach the throne. Each service is designed from the ground up around the topic of the sermon/series. I've never seen a church do it more deliberately. The emphasis is on developing the theme rather than on trying to find music/elements to please certain demographics. Any songs from any era - from hymns to the latest - can speak to anyone. We avoid the most extreme stuff in weekly services but have other evening events dedicated just to hymns or rocking out.

The job of the musicians is to present the music authentically rather than perfectly. All are expected to prepare but not to disrupt the balance of their lives doing so. (Of course, we expect different things from different players based on their abilities and use them accordingly.) Basically, we hope that the worship team plays well enough to get out of the way and let the congregation focus on worship, not on the performance. Bad performance distracts from good worship. We also try to keep things fresh by playing with styles and instrumentation. Some worship should be familiar, and some should be fresh.

We try to represent our congregation in our worship teams. We would rather have a few high school and college age players growing on the job than put the "A" team out there every week. We also have the middle aged and older folks, men and women represented. The worship team is just the part of the congregation that has the right gifts for the job. One important subnote is that we tend to use the "A" team for outreach services such as Easter and Christmas and focus more on the quality of the production. Good music helps fill seats so that more people can hear the gospel.

One question... is "Jim Martinez" the awesome pianist? If so, we know that guy from past days at Fair Oaks Pres. (Say hey from Amy and Jay in Sac.) Thanks for what you are doing here.

Jay

God can move in a situation when we trust Him and don't compromise His Word. I wouldn't want to jeopardize the true move of God for enhanced musicianship.

It's going to be hard to qualify someone for worshiping in spirit and in truth, who doesn't have the Spirit and who hasn't accepted the truth.


I have to chime in on this. While to some extent I do agree with this, I have to give all praise and glory to Him, because this is the exactly how I got back into relationship with Jesus.

I was a huge backslider, and had basically shut Jesus out of my life. If it wasn't for some church musician friends of my girlfriend (now my wife) asking me to play for their youth ministry, I believe I would still be lost today.

To this day, I'm not quite sure why I did it, given my mindset at the time, but I guess God knew my hot button. Within a few weeks, it all "clicked" for me, and I realized that my purpose here is to praise God, whether it be by playing bass, or just ..well whatever I do. It all seemed so clear, and remains clear to this day.

What can I say, I'm just thankful that it all happened.

Blessings to all,
Mike

That's wonderful. All glory to the God of all mercies.

There may be times that God will lead in a direction like that. It's not what you would do without a leading, though. I rejoice with you in His mercy!

That's wonderful. All glory to the God of all mercies.

There may be times that God will lead in a direction like that. It's not what you would do without a leading, though. I rejoice with you in His mercy!


Amen to that!!

Howdy all--A church musician checking in from Iraq here!
I've been here for about 4 months now. I'm a Marine (MSgt-Infantry) out in western Iraq near the borders of Syria and Jordan.
I took a leap of faith before coming over here and bought an acoustic bass (Fender BG-29) in the hopes that there would be not only worship services here, but also a worship team. God answered, and we built a worship team out here! We currently have 2 guitars, me, a vocalist and a keyboard. I'm running my bass through a PA speaker (it's impossible to hear unamplified). It's not the optimum setup, but it works. I've been slowly building up a music collection here, so thing are going well. All I can say is that I'm blessed with the opportunity to use my gift at worship here.

Todd, I wanted to thank you for your generousity--It's nice being thought of. I hope you got the flag I sent.

Thats all for now. If anyone wants to contact me, I'd love to hear from you--my email address is my user name @yahoo.com

Be safe!

Scott

Scott, you do us all proud.

Keep doing exactly what you're doing. :-)

Howdy all--A church musician checking in from Iraq here!
I've been here for about 4 months now. I'm a Marine (MSgt-Infantry) out in western Iraq near the borders of Syria and Jordan.
I took a leap of faith before coming over here and bought an acoustic bass (Fender BG-29) in the hopes that there would be not only worship services here, but also a worship team. God answered, and we built a worship team out here! We currently have 2 guitars, me, a vocalist and a keyboard. I'm running my bass through a PA speaker (it's impossible to hear unamplified). It's not the optimum setup, but it works. I've been slowly building up a music collection here, so thing are going well. All I can say is that I'm blessed with the opportunity to use my gift at worship here.

Todd, I wanted to thank you for your generousity--It's nice being thought of. I hope you got the flag I sent.

Thats all for now. If anyone wants to contact me, I'd love to hear from you--my email address is my user name @yahoo.com

Be safe!

Scott

Hi Scott,

I received your AWESOME flag.......I was deeply touched by your thoughts and generosity.

My darling wife has mounted the flag, the certificate, the coin and your letter in a beautiful box type frame. It has a special place of honor in my office.

God bless you and the work you're doing....and for your praise and worship music for our troops.

EXTREMELY well done...good and faithful servant!!

Remember, to call me when you get home so you can be my guest at one of our performances.

Be safe,

I have to say that I've been extremely blessed with this gift--it isn't one that I expected, but it's the one that I got. It's a fine feeling to give it back in worship service. I've heard that people have been coming to hear the music--that's great! It gets them in the door so they can hear the word and let the Spirit do the work. I'm truly privledged and blessed to be doing God's work in this way here in the land of the Chaldeans, just a couple hundred miles from Damascus (I'm actually located very near the road to Damascus, but from the Babylon, not Jerusalem side).

Thanks to all for the prayers! If what's happening out here at our church is any indication, they're working.

Scott
Psalms 150

I am a new bass player, soon to be playing bass for my church, this fall. Any and all instruction would be greatly appreciated. Right now I am picking up the basics (or bassics) by listening to the songs we will be playing, some from tabs, and others I will probably try to just play the root notes until my skills grow.

Like an earlier part of this thread, I will be playing for our new Saturday service called "The Edge". I am really looking forward to it. Some of the music we will be playing is like: Jonah33, Day of Fire, Fusebox, Kutless, Jefy Deyo etc. I am glad that our church is adding a more contemporary service to keep the younger kids, involved. We have youth services also, so I am not sure what will be going on with those.

God Bless All!

I am a new bass player, soon to be playing bass for my church, this fall. Any and all instruction would be greatly appreciated. Right now I am picking up the basics (or bassics) by listening to the songs we will be playing, some from tabs, and others I will probably try to just play the root notes until my skills grow.

Like an earlier part of this thread, I will be playing for our new Saturday service called "The Edge". I am really looking forward to it. Some of the music we will be playing is like: Jonah33, Day of Fire, Fusebox, Kutless, Jefy Deyo etc. I am glad that our church is adding a more contemporary service to keep the younger kids, involved. We have youth services also, so I am not sure what will be going on with those.

God Bless All!

Hi Audienceofone!!

Thanks for joining us........

Be sure to develop your reading skills.....TAB...is only good for a few things.....LEARN TO READ NOTES!!!!

Invest in your technique....in your physical ability to get a good sound out of the instrument.....DO IT NOW...before you develop bad habits and have to RE-LEARN stuff later on!! My "Technique Builders" DVD is ideal for you.....The guys on TB can vouch for me and my DVD's.........this would be a "wise" investment for you IMHO. Learn to make a "joyful sound" with your hands.....your band memebers,....church family....and most important...GOD....will appreciate and honor your commitment to excellence for HIS GLORY!!:hyper:

Have fun......

Let me know how I can be of service!!!

I'm here to help!!!

Hi Todd,

Or any believer for that matter. What are you thoughts on going to jazz jam sessions? I'd like to go to dial in some licks and network some gigs like anyone else. However, the environment they're in is very secular, i.e. a bar, and not to metion a lot of pride amoung the players. Not that I don't have any. =) When I walk into my church to play worship a few days later, I feel that pride and secularity follows me in and it takes a minute to wash it off.

Because of this I ended up taking mostly musical theatre gigs. I wish there was a more saintified way to do this.

Hi Todd,

Or any believer for that matter. What are you thoughts on going to jazz jam sessions? I'd like to go to dial in some licks and network some gigs like anyone else. However, the environment they're in is very secular, i.e. a bar, and not to metion a lot of pride amoung the players. Not that I don't have any. =) When I walk into my church to play worship a few days later, I feel that pride and secularity follows me in and it takes a minute to wash it off.

Because of this I ended up taking mostly musical theatre gigs. I wish there was a more saintified way to do this.

Hi Lazaro,

The main thing is for us to worship God in everything we do....it's not just a musical thing. We ALL struggle with this....BUT... to answer your question as best I can. (Remember guys... this is just my opinion....so no nasty letters!)

Remember that Christ ate with harlots and tax collectors....It's impossible to avoid secular settings.... plus insulating ourselves in a "Christian only" environment is a double edged sword. (Musical theatre gigs are just as secular as jazz gigs...only without the bar! ;) ) We all need to find a balance between staying out of harms way...and...going out and being "salt and light". It's different for everyone.....

IMHO.....go to the jam session.... pray for the cats that are lost...be "salt and light", love your neighbor...be a servant.... offer up your performance....and the opportunity to learn music...and ultimately honor God with it. Make sense?? I think I sense a ministry opportunity.....(BTW, this applies to any style of music)

I play in jazz clubs all the time. My prayer before I play is for God to help ME get out of the way....and let HIM shine through.....I thank Him for the opportunity to worship Him....and that He would receive the GLORY!!....and that if it's His will that I get an opportunity to share my faith or encourage others. I also pray that I would conduct myself in a humble and loving manner that would allow Christ to "shine through".

Playing for Christ takes away SO much pressure. If I can give me all....do my best...and offer it up to God...then He will be pleased....and He will use it as He sees fit.

If I focus on this, then I don't worry about what others think about me or my playing etc. I'm always amazed how God will use my mistakes and faults to encourage others....and ultimately bring Himself the glory!!! :hyper:

Also, FWIW....some of my most worshipful times are when I'm alone in my practice room working on my craft.....Some very intimate times are had there....at least for me. I've also been just as intimate and worshipful in a jazz club as I've been in church. Our lives are meant for worship!!!

OK....I've gone on long enough!! I hope this helps....

Blessings,

Here's a couple links of interest for you.

http://www.jazzministry.org/

http://www.songsofdavid.com/christianjazzartists.shtml

You play rock praise music? Churches were condemning rock and burning records in the 50's and 60's and now it's acceptable. I'm a member of a Afro-American church and some critize all the music and dance, but there is scripture that say it is to be done. In fact now they have youth Hip-Hop service. Sure some of the elders complain, but how can you complain when you see kids that otherwise would be running the streets come to the alter to be saved?

I just went to another church a week ago they have their Jazz Vespers evening service. Jazz is just another way to express what can't be put in words. Any song can be made into Jazz it's just how you interpret it. IMO it's all about what's in your heart.

Here's a couple links of interest for you.

http://www.jazzministry.org/

http://www.songsofdavid.com/christianjazzartists.shtml

You play rock praise music? Churches were condemning rock and burning records in the 50's and 60's and now it's acceptable. I'm a member of a Afro-American church and some critize all the music and dance, but there is scripture that say it is to be done. In fact now they have youth Hip-Hop service. Sure some of the elders complain, but how can you complain when you see kids that otherwise would be running the streets come to the alter to be saved?

I just went to another church a week ago they have their Jazz Vespers evening service. Jazz is just another way to express what can't be put in words. Any song can be made into Jazz it's just how you interpret it. IMO it's all about what's in your heart.

Amen brother!!! Well said!

My experience with playing in churches over the past 25 yrs is that there is a wide range of ability and experience in the musicians that play there. In some churches the worship was great and the musicians were not necessarily top notch players but were prepared and were able to pull off very challenging music and the tunes came off very well. I have played in churches where we were rehearsed o the point of burn out and the tunes never really came together. A worship leader has the responsibility to choose songs that match the ability of the players so as to avoid having the musicians obsess on every note on Sunday morning. My habit was always to commit my parts to memory early on and not rely on charts. My goal was to be able to play my parts effortlessly and join in with worship. I also believe that as a more experienced musician I have a responsibility to the other less experienced players to help them in any way I can.

I play in jazz clubs all the time. My prayer before I play is for God to help ME get out of the way....and let HIM shine through.....I thank Him for the opportunity to worship Him....and that He would receive the GLORY!!....and that if it's His will that I get an opportunity to share my faith or encourage others. I also pray that I would conduct myself in a humble and loving manner that would allow Christ to "shine through".

Playing for Christ takes away SO much pressure. If I can give me all....do my best...and offer it up to God...then He will be pleased....and He will use it as He sees fit.


Thanks Todd for the info. I met you once before I was saved at this clinic in Concord, California Spitzers Music. You we're a light then and influence now.

We all need to find a balance between staying out of harms way...and...going out and being "salt and light". It's different for everyone.....

I agree it is different for everyone. I'll just have to discern when or when not to go through Asia Minor or Samaria to talk to the lost or shine. :)

Okay, I'll try going back to the jam sessions, ingnore the various substances and pride including my own, and dial in some licks, grab some groove as well as some numbers hopefully. After a couple i'll know if I'll have favor in such an arena or just dust my feet. ;)

I'm with you on this one too Todd. The music is the only part of church I don't like (I myself don't play there). The odd thing is the musicians at the church I attend are actually very good, they are just playing poorly written music.
My main gig right now is being a church bassist, and i agree. I consider myself to be a good bass player for my experience level, the problem is just the music.. It was written to worship with, not to solo over! :cool:

I'm no theory buff, and my ear is not that good yet, so maybe I am not all that qualified to speak in this area, but...

Isreal & New Breed, Donnie McClurkin, Fred Hammond, seem to right some well written music.

Is this an issue of genre?

I'm no theory buff, and my ear is not that good yet, so maybe I am not all that qualified to speak in this area, but...

Isreal & New Breed, Donnie McClurkin, Fred Hammond, seem to right some well written music.

Is this an issue of genre?

You're talking about Gospel and I look at Gospel as a one of multiple forms of Christian music. Gospel music puts a lot of emphasis on groove and is known to be busy with all the punches the rhythm section catches. Also some Gospel bass players like Andrew Gouche are very busy bass players and almost border on the parts being solos. Andrew sat in with the band at my church a couple weeks ago and yes he's busy, but it works. But if you attend church where Gospel is the music for the Worship and Praise section of the service you will understand how it fits in. So they answer to your question is yes, Isreal Haughton, Fred Hammond, Donnie McClurkin and don't forget Hezekiah Walker all write great Christian music.

You're talking about Gospel and I look at Gospel as a one of multiple forms of Christian music. Gospel music puts a lot of emphasis on groove and is known to be busy with all the punches the rhythm section catches. Also some Gospel bass players like Andrew Gouche are very busy bass players and almost border on the parts being solos. Andrew sat in with the band at my church a couple weeks ago and yes he's busy, but it works. But if you attend church where Gospel is the music for the Worship and Praise section of the service you will understand how it fits in. So they answer to your question is yes, Isreal Haughton, Fred Hammond, Donnie McClurkin and don't forget Hezekiah Walker all write great Christian music.

Amen brother!!! I couldn't have said it any better myself. :cool:

You're talking about Gospel and I look at Gospel as a one of multiple forms of Christian music. Gospel music puts a lot of emphasis on groove and is known to be busy with all the punches the rhythm section catches. Also some Gospel bass players like Andrew Gouche are very busy bass players and almost border on the parts being solos. Andrew sat in with the band at my church a couple weeks ago and yes he's busy, but it works. But if you attend church where Gospel is the music for the Worship and Praise section of the service you will understand how it fits in. So they answer to your question is yes, Isreal Haughton, Fred Hammond, Donnie McClurkin and don't forget Hezekiah Walker all write great Christian music.

I gotcha... looking back at my post, I guess, I was expecting you guys to read my mind. I was refering to some of the more Worship type songs those guys do... Like Donnie McClurkin doing, Agnus Dei, or Israel's "Alpha and Omega, or Let it Rain"...

At our Church we have a mixture of the high tempo, move right along Gospel and then we typically slow it down towards, time for the preached Word.

At any rate... Thanks for the response... Back to the shed to try and keep up with the afore mentioned musicians. :bassist:

I gotcha... looking back at my post, I guess, I was expecting you guys to read my mind. I was refering to some of the more Worship type songs those guys do... Like Donnie McClurkin doing, Agnus Dei, or Israel's "Alpha and Omega, or Let it Rain"...

At our Church we have a mixture of the high tempo, move right along Gospel and then we typically slow it down towards, time for the preached Word.

At any rate... Thanks for the response... Back to the shed to try and keep up with the afore mentioned musicians. :bassist:

"Back to the shed to try and keep up with the afore mentioned musicians".

Ready...............................GO!!!

My "Technique Builders" DVD is ideal for you.....The guys on TB can vouch for me and my DVD's.........this would be a "wise" investment for you IMHO.


damn right. alltho i had to re learn allmoast how to play but im playing more and better (in my mind) and im enjoying it more.... get the Technique Builders DVD your BASS will thank you:smug:

damn right. alltho i had to re learn allmoast how to play but im playing more and better (in my mind) and im enjoying it more.... get the Technique Builders DVD your BASS will thank you:smug:

Thanks Jeff.....You're in the will now! ;)

A couple thoughts. Regarding non-Christians on the worship team, my church doesn't let just anybody off the street onto the team, and this applies to both the youth team and the "big church" team. Part of the process is an interview where the prospective member gives their testimony. Anyway, one of the girls in the youth group ended up accepting Christ during the interview, praise the Lord!

On another topic, I also struggle with the whole balance between worship and performance, since my music pastor likes to put on a polished performance. I've found that with my busy schedule, I don't have enough time to practice enough for a "performance" so I default to worship mode. Not that I don't want to practice more. I think that if I practiced more, it would more on rudiments, different styles, etc., and not necessarily what we're actually doing that week. I'd rather have the flexibility to vary things up than be locked into a particular line. I'd rather be worshipping than worrying about whether I hit eighth notes or quarter notes at measure 58.

Don't know if that adds anything but I've enjoyed the thread a LOT. Thanks to all who contributed over the life of the thread!

A couple thoughts. Regarding non-Christians on the worship team, my church doesn't let just anybody off the street onto the team, and this applies to both the youth team and the "big church" team. Part of the process is an interview where the prospective member gives their testimony. Anyway, one of the girls in the youth group ended up accepting Christ during the interview, praise the Lord!

On another topic, I also struggle with the whole balance between worship and performance, since my music pastor likes to put on a polished performance. I've found that with my busy schedule, I don't have enough time to practice enough for a "performance" so I default to worship mode. Not that I don't want to practice more. I think that if I practiced more, it would more on rudiments, different styles, etc., and not necessarily what we're actually doing that week. I'd rather have the flexibility to vary things up than be locked into a particular line. I'd rather be worshipping than worrying about whether I hit eighth notes or quarter notes at measure 58.

Don't know if that adds anything but I've enjoyed the thread a LOT. Thanks to all who contributed over the life of the thread!

Cool....

We're all trying to do our best for HIS kingdom....

Thanks for joining us on this thread!!:cool:

Excellent discussion.

I'm pretty blessed to be playing in a church that emphasizes the worship aspect - and IMO does a good job of balancing the players so that we have some talent on stage, allowing everyone to worship as they play also.

Excellent discussion.

I'm pretty blessed to be playing in a church that emphasizes the worship aspect - and IMO does a good job of balancing the players so that we have some talent on stage, allowing everyone to worship as they play also.

CONGRATS WES!!! PTL FOR THAT!!!