In your interview you stated that church musicianship is pretty low. I've actually had the opposite experience. Some of the best musicians I've ever heard and met were in church. Also a lot of the guys who I will play secular gigs or sessions with who are awesome musicians either cut their teeth at church and/or still play at church. As a private instructor I found that musicianship was about the same for my students who wanted to play at church or who wanted to play else where. I do understand that at a lot of churches the musicianship is not up to a modern day J.S. Bach but is that just the church or musicianship in general?
Dale

In your interview you stated that church musicianship is pretty low. I've actually had the opposite experience. Some of the best musicians I've ever heard and met were in church. Also a lot of the guys who I will play secular gigs or sessions with who are awesome musicians either cut their teeth at church and/or still play at church. As a private instructor I found that musicianship was about the same for my students who wanted to play at church or who wanted to play else where. I do understand that at a lot of churches the musicianship is not up to a modern day J.S. Bach but is that just the church or musicianship in general?
Dale

Hi Dale,

Hey, thanks for your comments! Actually, I know a bunch of phenomenal "church musicians" etc. ....and there are churches full of them.....THANKFULLY!!!:hyper: Can I get an AMEN?!

But, I also hear/see a TON of folks......who mean well.....but are lacking in preparation.....practice....musicianship skills etc. They're not bringing their best "offering" to the alter....know what I mean?? That's my frustration....The praise choruses etc. are really stuck in a rut....I'm dying to hear better song writing....some better harmony.... To me, so much of the music has been dumbed down to the point that it's really frustrating.

God has given us a HUGE smorgasboard of harmony, styles, grooves etc. It's a shame we don't take advantage of more of it on a regualr basis.

and......like you said....it's not just the church, but musicianship skills in general are down....across the board. Mediocrity is not only rewarded.....it's cherished and celebrated.

But, as Christians, we are called to a higher standard.....at least the way I understand it....I don't mean to be preachy here, OK.....But we're called to bring GOD our best.

I realize we all fall short........we're imperfect creatures....we're definitely "flawed".....well, I am anyway!!:help:

Hey, I don't mean to be so negative.....please don't misunderstand me.... There is also some great music out there that glorifies God......in a variety of styles.....I guess I wish there were more of it.

Hey, one of my missions in life is to try to help educate bass players (specifically) to become better musicians.....and hopefully they'll glorify God with their talents.

Plus, this is just my humble opinion......and my experience.

I'm thrilled to know that you're using your talents to glorify God through your music and your teaching.

Thanks again for your insightful comments!

I completely agree, Todd. There needs to be a spirit of excellence in the church. Just because we're playing at our local sanctuary and not at Madison Square Garden doesn't mean we shouldn't give our best. The church used to be home to the most cutting edge music in the world, and now we're often stuck following the mainstream.

I'm with you on this one too Todd. The music is the only part of church I don't like (I myself don't play there). The odd thing is the musicians at the church I attend are actually very good, they are just playing poorly written music.

I find that a lot of the church music we are playing are really simple compositions. Sometimes that allows you to embellish things a bit, or sometimes, you end up thumping roots for ten minutes. I really don't mean to insult the writer's inspiration, but I would love to hear some new stuff. I like getting a challenge when learning new stuff.

I consider myself lucky that I play in a church where experimentation with our sound is encouraged. What I find discouraging is that it seems like "church" music seems to be 5-10 years behind the curve.

I dunno. None of that changes the fact that I strive to bring everything I have to playing there, but it does tend to frustrate me sometimes.

I consider myself lucky that I play in a church where experimentation with our sound is encouraged. What I find discouraging is that it seems like "church" music seems to be 5-10 years behind the curve.

I dunno. None of that changes the fact that I strive to bring everything I have to playing there, but it does tend to frustrate me sometimes.

This is the situation I face. Unfortunately, due to the deacon/elder situation in my church, we are sometimes discouraged from changing things too much. Sometimes we liven up an old standard, which is fun. But we have had some scowls on some occasions. Sometimes it's not worth the fight to play some music rather than have some stubbron church leaders gunning for you. It's unfortunate how politics seems to infect almost everything.

I think the main thing for all of us to focus on (musically speaking) is trying to constantly improve as musicians.....to bring God our best effort......not just settle for being good enough to play the songs we're asked to play....but make a real effort to maximize our talents and to realize our potential...to master our instruments to the point where we don't have technical things getting in the way of our ability to communicate musically to our audience (the congregation etc,) .....or get in the way of our "worship".

I know this is what I'm striving for anyway......

I'm happy to say that I'm at the point where I can play what I hear (at least a large majority of the time anyway....;) ) and it's really a blessing.

.....it has really helped me feel a much deeper sense of "expressing myself.....worshiping through music.

..... it makes improvising or soloing so much more intimate.....so much more expressive if I can play what I'm hearing or feeling at a given moment.

....rather than thinking about a "scale" or a "fingering" or "what key are we in???",....or...... "where's one???" Ha! :D You get my point.....

I'm so blessed to have the opportunity to play in a "jazz praise" context with my good friends Jim Martinez and Kristin Korb.....It's great to play jazz arrangements of hymns....hear the words and melodies....and THEN.....be able to express my "worship" in a solo. As long as my heart is right, then it's a beautiful thing!!:hyper:

I've got a hunch this what you're all striving for too.

Keep up the good work.......:bassist:

Well done, good and faithful servants!!!

i play at my church and i have been playing there since i started playing bass three years ago. over that time i have seen the musical ability of myself and everyone else grow greatly. we are at the point where we always know what the other people are thinking and we can just go with the way that we feel lead by the holy sperit. i LOVE playing at church because it keeps me on my feet and i learn something new every sunday that i play.

we always do songs different than others do, we do stuff in different keys and change the timings and everything. the only stuff that we keep is basicly the words. some of the songs that we do are ones that some of us have written.

lowsound

I just got back from practice tonight, and I really had a good night. There were a couple of rough spots, but we were pretty good tonight. I was fiddling around with a pedal of mine, and I got some good grind out of it that I have never heard before. One of our guitarists wasn't there, and I had to strive to fill out the spaces. Really pushed me a bit to improve. I did a bit of soloing, and I know I need improvement. It was fun.

i play at my church and i have been playing there since i started playing bass three years ago. over that time i have seen the musical ability of myself and everyone else grow greatly. we are at the point where we always know what the other people are thinking and we can just go with the way that we feel lead by the holy sperit. i LOVE playing at church because it keeps me on my feet and i learn something new every sunday that i play.

we always do songs different than others do, we do stuff in different keys and change the timings and everything. the only stuff that we keep is basicly the words. some of the songs that we do are ones that some of us have written.

lowsound

iamlowsound,

Cool........sounds like you're in a productive, creative environment. Well done.

Keep up the good work!

Well part of the problem (at our church at least) is that many of the more 'senior' members of the congregation are resitant to change, which is a shame. But, as one pointed out to us, they have put up with a lot of change over their lifetime.

Oh yes, and general songwriting (as in lyrics) is pretty awful, they like use the same phrases in songs; just because it's for God, doesn't mean it has to avoid problems.

this thread seems like it has been taken straight from my thoughts... the poor compositions, the elders objecting to change, the low level of musicianship... i face each of these problems at church each week. i used to let it bother me, but now i realise that i am playing to glorify Jesus and the talents he has given me.

i'm not there to prove a point to anyone; and only one other person on the music team is actually trying to improve as musicians; but so what? coz now i realise that i am playing to glorify Jesus and the talents he has given me.

:) :bassist:

The modern worship style...ie Chris Tomlin, Lincoln Brewster, David Crowder and the passion movement is what the young basses going after.. I'm lucky at our church that our pastor is a guitar player and he's really into the modern worship sounds. So, we are changing with the style and the older basses just have to change with times and take more lessons.

We are going to have continue training from Church bass instruction ie. Norm Stockton for our bass players...:D

Todd...are you available??:help:

Ah, the debate continues. At my church we are continually walking the line between excellence vs. perfection and worship vs. performance. It's a fine line but I think that churches need to have a bar set in terms of ability. It does not have to be set high but there should be some basic requirements.I will not ever question anyone's heart but there should be a standard for worship music and musicians. God deserves our best at all times. Some churches actually have criteria in place where you must spend time in children's worship, adult ministries where worship is needed before you step into sanctuary worship. All the while your sort of training for the day when you can move into the sanctuary. I agree with this sort of approach. Some musical backround and ability shouldbe a requirement. Mediocrity should never be the norm for a church interested in reaching out to people. Todd, great to have you at TB. How about a trip to Milwaukee for a clinic??

this thread seems like it has been taken straight from my thoughts... the poor compositions, the elders objecting to change, the low level of musicianship... i face each of these problems at church each week. i used to let it bother me, but now i realise that i am playing to glorify Jesus and the talents he has given me.

i'm not there to prove a point to anyone; and only one other person on the music team is actually trying to improve as musicians; but so what? coz now i realise that i am playing to glorify Jesus and the talents he has given me.

:) :bassist:

ras1983,

You've got it EXACTLY right...do your work for the Lord, rather than for men!!

We should encourage each other to continually strive for excellence...with integrity. It's really that simple.

It's tough sometimes, but God never promised it would be easy.

Keep up the good work!

The modern worship style...ie Chris Tomlin, Lincoln Brewster, David Crowder and the passion movement is what the young basses going after.. I'm lucky at our church that our pastor is a guitar player and he's really into the modern worship sounds. So, we are changing with the style and the older basses just have to change with times and take more lessons.

We are going to have continue training from Church bass instruction ie. Norm Stockton for our bass players...:D

Todd...are you available??:help:


Hman,

Good for you.......but be nice to the "older" bass players.....I AM ONE! HA!;)

I'm definitely available if you should need my services. Let me know how I can serve you.

Ah, the debate continues. At my church we are continually walking the line between excellence vs. perfection and worship vs. performance. It's a fine line but I think that churches need to have a bar set in terms of ability. It does not have to be set high but there should be some basic requirements.I will not ever question anyone's heart but there should be a standard for worship music and musicians. God deserves our best at all times. Some churches actually have criteria in place where you must spend time in children's worship, adult ministries where worship is needed before you step into sanctuary worship. All the while your sort of training for the day when you can move into the sanctuary. I agree with this sort of approach. Some musical backround and ability shouldbe a requirement. Mediocrity should never be the norm for a church interested in reaching out to people. Todd, great to have you at TB. How about a trip to Milwaukee for a clinic??

Sanch,

I'd love to come to Milwaukee. I'm going to be in Chicago and Indianapolis at the end of March .....first of April. Drop me a note off list....maybe we can put something together since I'll be that close.

Cool...:cool:

I'm so blessed to have the opportunity to play in a "jazz praise" context with my good friends Jim Martinez and Kristin Korb.....It's great to play jazz arrangements of hymns....hear the words and melodies....and THEN.....be able to express my "worship" in a solo. As long as my heart is right, then it's a beautiful thing!!:hyper:

I have been wanting to do this exact same thing for years, but where I am (geographically and musically) it seems that it won't happen soon. Have you heard Grant Green's "Feelin the Spirit"?

I am happy to have stumbled on this thread. The musicianship in our church is really poor. Its not even for a lack of talent. Its primarily due to the personalities of the two worship leaders. It bothers me, but I don't really know what can be done about it.

I'm glad to know that I'm not the only one.

God Bless all of your services and worship ministries....and please pray for mine!

You know, I've been in a situation where the church emphasized musical excellence to the point where neither I (the leader) nor the band was really able to worship. Now the band had been introduced to Christianity that way... I wasn't. Of course, most of the band were professionals who probably wouldn't be in the building otherwise... I ended up being fired because I refused to keep the complexity at a level where we couldn't worship. After all, what's the purpose of church if not worship?

Anyway, I'm now leading in a church where they have a slightly lower musical standard, and it's a great deal better for me. I like to be able to shift the mechanics of playing into the background and just worship. The funny thing? This band grooves better and sounds more powerful (IMHO), and they're all amateurs! It's interesting how God works.

For what it's worth, I do think that it's our responsibility to present God our best offering, but if our offering of praise isn't sufficient, no offering of musical complexity is going to make up for it.

Bottom line- people should never come to church for the music, IMHO. If that's what brings them initially, awesome. But if you keep going week after week just to hear some incredible band and keep getting annoyed by that annoying talking in the middle, I think priorities are out of whack. As musicians, we just have to be really in tune with God and really know what's going to draw others into worship, and what will detract from it.

I am also really happy to have stumbled upon this thread.

I see the heart here above all else. I see people wanting to worship God; to give Him the adoration, praise, and experience intimacy in some effort to show our appreciation for all He has done and continues to do. I see people that recognize that God as the source, that He has given us both talent and insight; may wisdom be the result.

I happen to attend a church that is known for it's level of musicianship. We tend to use an amalgamation of tunes to help lead people in worship through music; we also use songs like John Mayer's "Daughters" to help illustrate a particular topic about boundaries, etc. Now I realize that people should never come to church for the music, but I do also realize that we are subject to countless temptation as humans and accountability is key. I do not think there really is one magical response to this. I for one just want God to be known, to be praised, to be glorified. If that means playing Third Day, or "It Is Well", or whatever, for people to encounter the Truth, the Living God...I'm up for it.

I happen to attend a church that is known for it's level of musicianship. We tend to use an amalgamation of tunes to help lead people in worship through music; we also use songs like John Mayer's "Daughters" to help illustrate a particular topic about boundaries, etc. Now I realize that people should never come to church for the music, but I do also realize that we are subject to countless temptation as humans and accountability is key. I do not think there really is one magical response to this. I for one just want God to be known, to be praised, to be glorified. If that means playing Third Day, or "It Is Well", or whatever, for people to encounter the Truth, the Living God...I'm up for it.
This is exactly the situation I was in at my previous church. Every week we would do a special song from the radio that applied to the sermon, and we would do it as close to the radio version as possible. The first week I came in to hear the group, they did a tune by U2. The next week when I started, they were doing Third Day. In their repetiore, they had some Jewel, some Elton John, and all sorts of other songs that required a great deal of rehearsal. Again, since they were all pros, they were able to play the music in one hour's worth of rehearsal, which was cool, but I couldn't do that and still worship.

I was too concerned about playing my parts accurately to keep up with the hired guns, and ultimately, I realized that they were only concerned with playing their parts as well. Essentially, we were showing up for a Sunday morning performance every week.

I envy the folks who are good enough that they can perform complex music and worship through it. I'm too perfection oriented to do it. I've gotten better, but I'm now always sensitive to the fact that not everyone will be able to play hard songs and worship. My job is not only to lead the congregation, but to lead the praise band in worship.

It's a tough job, frankly. I don't envy the pastor. How he can worship while he's preaching is beyond me. But he does.

just thought that i might mention this, i guess that around here my playing for worship has gotten noticed because last week i got an email asking my to fill in for a bass player on a worship team for a saturday conferance. we praticed for about an hour before the first service and and hour between the two and everything went well. they loved my playing :) and said that it really added

lowsound

Hey Todd!

Great to see this thread. Still playing w/ Ronnie and Kendall? Last time I saw you was at Kikuya. I loved what you were doing with the six and the Hammond patch. Very musical!!

I play at church every week here in Orange County, CA. I feel it is my duty to give back to God and give thanks for the talent he has given me. I never ask for pay as I have a good job. This is my ministry.

I see talented players, most always they are the "hired guns" groovin, flowing in the moment, worshiping. More often though, I see players struggling, faces buried in charts, and being uptight and disconected. For me, studying jazz theory has set me free. Because of this, I am always ready for the "spirit lead" section to take over. Fortunatly, the two regular churches I play give me total freedom to play what I feel. They actually encourage it. I am really lucky for that! I have been in other church situations where the leader is totaly hung up on "playing it the way it is on the record". I guess that's cool, they just want the worship to be good.

Bottom line, I do agree with Todd that overall the music is tired and very expected and the level of play is lower than it should be. To me, it should be the best that could be! After all , it's the most important gig you can do. You are there to help lead worship to our Father and Lord of all!

Bottom line, I do agree with Todd that overall the music is tired and very expected and the level of play is lower than it should be. To me, it should be the best that could be! After all , it's the most important gig you can do. You are there to help lead worship to our Father and Lord of all!
To play devil's advocate (pardon the pun), though, it's not like God's going to be impressed by the fancy music. :hiding: At least not any more impressed than He would be by a fancy suit or a fancy church building.

It's all about the heart, isn't it? Whether you're playing an out of tune piano to a congregation of 6 or if you're leading a 100 piece orchestra to a congregation of 10,000... all that matters is where your heart is at. We just have to remember that.

Of course, I'm horrible about this. I suppose I consider anything at a lower quality than my church to be "not good enough" and anything better than my church to be "too focused on the music". :p I guess that's the musician's ego that I have to work hard to keep at bay.

Yeah, that's a two way street for sure. But I think thats a cop out though, seems I hear that from people that are not that talented.

I just think the music and musicanship should be as good as it can be, that's all.

Great post!

I have played in Church on and off for over 20 years. During that time, the present level of a person's musicianship has never been too much of a concern to me as long as the person had an understanding of the basics and did not "ruin" the songs. However, a person's devotion to God and his or her level of commitment to practice were two of the most important factors.

Some of the most horrid experiences I had while playing in Church were with musicians who treated the opportunity as a "gig", but did not care about the things of God in their personal lives and/or did not feel the need to practice regularly.

Also, I believe we need to separate the musicianship expectations of the average Sunday morning Church band, in which most cases the musicians are playing for the love of God and the musical setting is free, and the professional Church or Christian band, in which musical setting is not free and/or the musicians are paid.

Not everyone who plays in the average Sunday morning Church band is, or has the talent to become, a professional musician. However, if the person is using his or her musical abilities 100% from the heart to glorify God, I believe the Lord is very well pleased.

Ted

Well you have to look at it like this I think...look at the world and the Universe you occupy. It is the most amazing creation you can imagine. It's beauty comes from an imaginative and creative God. Therefore you should use your talents and creativity to the best of your ability to glorify God. Settling is wrong and wasting your talents is not showing your appreciation in my opinion. It is possible to play the most incredible music ever heard and worship God at the same time. The first people mentioned in the bible to be inspired by God were artists and musicians. I am no longer playing at Church for the moment because the leader would always say "We are playing for God so don't worry about getting the music right" and I feel that is completely wrong. He also likes playing secular music during offering, which I feel is an affront to God, not to mention being in a secular band that he plays in late Saturday nights etc. It's good to see many others in here have the exact same opinion as I do on these things. I've seen so much complacency I thought I was the only one.
Just be sure that you're playing for God's glory and not your own glory. And if you're leading the team, you also have to consider the motivations of your team members. It's tough for us musicians - ego is almost taught to us as an extra open string - EADGEgo, I think... lol...

Just out of curiosity, what do you mean by "playing secular music during offering"? Was he literally singing and performing secular songs? Was he just playing recognizable tunes without vocals (I used to do that back when I was young and insensitive and thought it was funny)?

I'm a strong believer in God using anything to His glory - regardless of its original intent. A good example is the band ApologetiX (http://www.apologetix.com). They're a Christian parody band, and they lead more people to Christ than I can hardly believe. Yes, they're playing music written by Metallica and The Rolling Stones and even System of a Down. But they lyrics are rewritten and the songs are retaken for God.

I know some great Christian friends who play in secular rock bands. Obviously, they're not singing about sex, drugs, death, etc, but they're certainly not specifically singing about Jesus in any song. They do, however, get to talk to all sorts of non-Christians before and after their shows, and are a great witness that way.

I think if a secular song can be "retaken" for God, then by all means use it during the service, if that's appropriate. I went to a church a week before Christmas that featured renditions of "White Christmas" and "I Saw Mommy Kissin' Santa Clause". I have issues with that. But I also once attended a church that did a version of "Every Breath You Take" from God's perspective. Very moving.

And of course, I love to add recognizable intros to praise songs. I've used "Joker" by Steve Miller Band, "Thunderstruck" by AC/DC, "Smoke on the Water," "Semi-Charmed Life," "We Got the Funk"... We even used "Ants Marching" by Dave Matthews Band behind "Lord I Lift Your Name On High". Reclaimed for the kingdom, baby. :D

Check out a book called "The Heart of the Artist". It addresses alot of the issues that people have brought up in this thread. It's by a musician named Rory Noland. I found that book through someone at churchbass, I don't even remember who it was.


Chris A.:rolleyes: :bassist:

Interesting thread. I play in church and agree with Todd on the chorus "composition", ouch can you even call it that? I think the songs we do best are actually the ones we rework, whether restructuring harmony or ignoring intro's or endings.

I also think that it is not about, just the heart. The heart is the number one aspect, however distinguishing and understanding our roles in the body are important too. If I were the second best bassist in our church and the hearts were of equal service desire, I would take a secondary role. It does not mean I wouldn't play, just take a reduced role. I for one would hate to attend a fellowship of well intentioned people that were not gifted in Music, Preaching, Teaching or any other role you can insert into this analogy.

I'm really glad this thread is getting some action. It seemed it sat slow for a short while at first (may have just felt that way to me...).


[SUBSCRIBE]

Jared I was so tired last night I thought your last post was directed toward mine. I decided not to reply to it last night thinking you would realize your post did not deal with a single issue in mine and that you would delete yours by morning. Sleep deprivation is a funny thing as the meocentric (things always revolve around self) model seems to have shed its skin last night and I can plainly see you did not lose it. Your post just was not a reply to mine. I awoke with clarity and it makes me laugh that I could tire to the point where I could not follow a thread.

How do you "Retake" a secular song? Isn't there enough honest work out there to utilize? Me personally? I'm against it. Secular rock music is all about worldly values. I don't think there is any need to try and retake a song just because you happen to like it. An example I can name happened just this week. They played Rod Stewart's "have I told you lately that I love you?" Not cool in my book. And in fact the music leader I am referring to DOES sing about sex etc. in his secular band on the weekends. A little too much for me.

Also if you think you are playing for "your glory" in a church setting then you are probably more sad than can be described. I don't think any "glory" you can get in that situation is worth sacrificing your values for. I get really perturbed when people suggest that's what's going on just because I believe in playing quality music. Usually the people that say that (not referring to you) can't play for crap and use that against people who can.

Thanks for the tip on the book Chris I just ordered it.
I've played with many musicians whose only concern was to sound good. They didn't care how a song might affect the congregation, they didn't care if it led others into worship. All they cared about is that it "sounded cool"... Heck, I have to battle with that aspect in myself.

As musicians, don't we all want to sound great? Don't we all want to make beautiful music? To touch others? To impress? Now comes the distinction - are we trying to make ourselves look better or to glorify God? It's hard, folks. It's tough to swallow our own pride - the pride that drives almost every one of us to some extent.

I think that Christians do all sorts of things as Christians that may not be inherently "Christian". Christians play "secular" sports, watch "secular" movies, eat "secular" food, and even sing "secular" songs... but as long as they aren't contrary to the teachings of the Bible, I don't see that it's a big problem.

Now I am a bit of a purist when it comes to worship services. If you're going to be using secular music there, you better have a darned good reason, and it better be pretty obvious.

I'll have more later. :bassist:

It takes a lot of time and energy to do this, but I think that if a bassist, or any other musician, feels called to play in church, it's well worth while to visit a number of churches beforehand and try to find one where the music is happening at the right level for what you want to do. Talk to the worship leaders/ministers of music/whatever title, and find out all you can on the front end. If you find something that seems like a good fit, then start attending that church and observe how the music works there. If it still feels good to you, and the quality and the worship experience is there for you, then give playing in the band there a shot if you have that opportunity. Don't rush into getting involved- take your time and find the right place.

Probably a lot of us have gotten involved in the wrong church's band, and it's just not going to work out. You do have to give it some time to decide this for sure. There are so many factors- some churches will work for you, and many won't.

There is a balance to be achieved between excellence and worship. It's important for the worship leader to make it clear to anyone who plays that there are standards, just like other music organizations, and that anyone who plays should be able to meet those standards. On the other hand, the leader needs to teach the musicians about the worship experience and train them to be both better musicians and better worship leaders. It's hard to do.

I think the number one enemy of good worship music at church is a lack of commitment of time. A lot of the people I've worked with stay too busy with work and family and don't dedicate themselves to 1) being better musicians 2) learning the music for church and 3) rehearsal time for church.

In my church, I really like our worship leader. She's been doing it full-time for going on a year, still has a lot to learn in a number of areas, particularly communication, but in general is getting the balance, mentioned above, together. However, I see most of the musicians on the team just not putting enough time into it.

Some of our best musicians are college students. In spite of their study schedules, these kids are really enjoying being musicians, and are glad to have the chance to play at church. And it shows.

We also have some adults that just lame around. Unfortunately, our worship leader isn't at a point where she either asks people to step down if they are just not getting it together, or she works with them to improve their musicianship. A good thing is that we are encouraged to pick the weekends we want to play on, and the better musicians have gravitated toward each others' weekends.

Just a sampling- I know that any of us here who have any tenure at all with our current worship teams could share a ton of insights. I'll add more to this later.

I have been wanting to do this exact same thing for years, but where I am (geographically and musically) it seems that it won't happen soon. Have you heard Grant Green's "Feelin the Spirit"?

I am happy to have stumbled on this thread. The musicianship in our church is really poor. Its not even for a lack of talent. Its primarily due to the personalities of the two worship leaders. It bothers me, but I don't really know what can be done about it.

I'm glad to know that I'm not the only one.

God Bless all of your services and worship ministries....and please pray for mine!


Hi Chad,

Sorry, but I don't know the Grant Green tune. Bummer.....I'll have to check it out sometime.

We should all be praying for each others music ministries and worship teams. ABSOLUTELY!!!!

Just keep working hard at improving yourself as a "believer" and as a musician. That's really all we can do......or control so to speak. All the other stuff is really out of our hands when you get right down to it. That simplifies things for me anyway.

Thanks again for your post!

Hey Todd!

Great to see this thread. Still playing w/ Ronnie and Kendall? Last time I saw you was at Kikuya. I loved what you were doing with the six and the Hammond patch. Very musical!!

I play at church every week here in Orange County, CA. I feel it is my duty to give back to God and give thanks for the talent he has given me. I never ask for pay as I have a good job. This is my ministry.

I see talented players, most always they are the "hired guns" groovin, flowing in the moment, worshiping. More often though, I see players struggling, faces buried in charts, and being uptight and disconected. For me, studying jazz theory has set me free. Because of this, I am always ready for the "spirit lead" section to take over. Fortunatly, the two regular churches I play give me total freedom to play what I feel. They actually encourage it. I am really lucky for that! I have been in other church situations where the leader is totaly hung up on "playing it the way it is on the record". I guess that's cool, they just want the worship to be good.

Bottom line, I do agree with Todd that overall the music is tired and very expected and the level of play is lower than it should be. To me, it should be the best that could be! After all , it's the most important gig you can do. You are there to help lead worship to our Father and Lord of all!

Hey, who is this??? I know it's one of about 10 friends of mine in Orange County that are Christian bass players. Drop me a note and let me know. Cool!!!!

Anxious to know who this is!:hyper:

I met you over at Kikuya's when you were doing a gig with Ronnie Eschte Trio. My name is JR Rodgers and my buddy I was there with at the gig was a student of Ronnies when he was at the GIT in LA.

We emailed several times afterward and I talked to you about lessons but you were out in Saugus , and thats a jount from the OC, we just never hooked up. I study now with Baba Elefante, remember him from LA Bass Exchange?

Hi Friends,

Dkerwood...orionmanmatt...iamsolowsound...xqusemwu ah... T-Funk... Jared Morante...ChrisA...ii-v...matthew e wengerd...michael vee.....

First of all, thanks to all of you for sharing your hearts and your passion for Christ and for the music we play for Him!

Man, I go on the road for a few days and you guys took the ball and ran with it.!!! COOL!!!:cool:

There's a bunch of good information from all of you.....I LOVE the integrity you're all bringing to your worship teams too!!!

WELL DONE, GOOD AND FAITHFUL SERVANTS!!! :D

2 things I'd like to add/comment:

1. ChrisA recommended "The Heart of the Artist" by Rory Noland. I would like to second that......IMHO every Christian musician and worship leader should read and study this book. It has been a tremendous blessing to me. I recently read it cover to cover and am now going through it slowly and working on the study program. BRILLIANT work!!

2. I recently read a quote that said " Music is God's gift to us here on earth.....but music is the only earthly gift we'll take to heaven".

So next to learning and investing in God's word.....loving my neighbor as myself......what more noble investment could there be than investing in our ability to worship God through music!!??? It's a wise investment of our time and talents......to put it mildly!! Can I get an AMEN!? :)

I really appreciate everyone's postitve contributions!

I met you over at Kikuya's when you were doing a gig with Ronnie Eschte Trio. My name is JR Rodgers and my buddy I was there with at the gig was a student of Ronnies when he was at the GIT in LA.

We emailed several times afterward and I talked to you about lessons but you were out in Saugus , and thats a jount from the OC, we just never hooked up. I study now with Baba Elefante, remember him from LA Bass Exchange?


JR,

Hey, thanks for getting back to me.

You're in great hands with Baba Elephante! He's a monster player/teacher and a sweet, sweet man. Please tell him I said "hi".

Cool....:cool:

Cool Todd, you da man!:bassist:

Cool Todd, you da man!:bassist:

NO.....YOU DA MAN:hyper:

This is coming from the FWIW column, but I have been doing worship at a fairly large church for a while now, and I have dealt with the issues mentioned here on and off most of that time. We produce for television all that kind of stuff, but mostly the worship leader is just the kind of personality that wants an extremely well-polished and overall high quality "production" at every service. I respect that and mostly appreciate it, but is has gotten in the way spiritually for me more than once.

So, after a lot of praying and counsel, I have really come to a place that is comfortable for me that makes the balance between "worship" and musical excellence an easy one to manage. It's a personal thing and everyone will have to settle up with God about it in their own way.

For me, I am fortunate in that I have been doing it long enough to not let the "fly by the seat of your pants" nature of live worship get in the way for me. I have learned and adapted, so now, the predictably unpredictable nature of Sunday mornings is just the way things are. It doesn't bother me. It is actually kind of fun, and IME, the unplanned elements often are more worshipful.

Personally, I don't mind the simplicity of some of the worship music. For a couple of reasons:

1. Some of the simple stuff has been what I have really seen inspire worship in the congregations. Tomlin's "How Great Is Our God" is about as simple as it gets. Nonetheless, it is a powerful worship song.

2. The simple stuff is often the opportunity for me to personally have a Holy Spirit interaction right then and there as part of the worship experience.

But, I don't limit my concept of worship to those types of experiences.

We also do stuff that is fairly challenging for me technically. It is not uncommon for me to be in a position that because of either the technical level of the tune or the level of preparedness, I am extremely focused on "performing" and playing excellently. The most commonly viewed concept of worship is nowhere on my mind.

That said, I have no problems at all with being that way. Here's where I am with it:

Leading worship is about facilitating congregational worship as well as personal worship. If my efforts are contributing, I see it as honoring God.

So what if I am riveted to a chart or totally engrossed in keeping my head ahead of my fingers. If God is using that message in song to move in the life of another person, I am blessed to be piece of that tool.

I could rant forever, but I will stop. It's Todd's forum afterall.

Thanks Todd.






As for the book "The Heart of the Artist," I also recommend it. We went through it as a worship team a while back. There are some excellent discussion points in it.

Leading worship is about facilitating congregational worship as well as personal worship. If my efforts are contributing, I see it as honoring God.

That was articulated very well! Man, do I know those moments. I think it echoes what Jared has mentioned with respect to preparedness and responsibility. For to whom much has been given, much is expected (see the Parable of the Talents).

While I don't have the instruction or the experience that many of you on this forum do, I bust my butt to try and learn, grow, and be as prepared as possible so that I am bringing my best to the table every time. I've found it does a few things for me: it allows me to worship BECAUSE I am prepared, not in spite of it; it teaches me about character, obedience, and responsibility, three things I feel God has for His children if they follow Him; and it makes me a better player. The more I learn, the more I am able to translate what my heart wants to respond with. My songwriting grows and with it I am able to bring everything I can offer.

Charles, I don't have a thing to say that could do anything but take away from your post. Well spoken.:)

For me, I am fortunate in that I have been doing it long enough to not let the "fly by the seat of your pants" nature of live worship get in the way for me. I have learned and adapted, so now, the predictably unpredictable nature of Sunday mornings is just the way things are. It doesn't bother me. It is actually kind of fun, and IME, the unplanned elements often are more worshipful.


This is so, so true. I feel exactly the same way. Well said!!

What Chasarms said!!!!!!

+1

This is coming from the FWIW column, but I have been doing worship at a fairly large church for a while now, and I have dealt with the issues mentioned here on and off most of that time. We produce for television all that kind of stuff, and mostly the worship leader is just the kind of personality that wants an extremely well-polished and overall high quality "production" at every service. I respect that and mostly appreciate it, but is has gotten in the way spiritually for me more than once.

So, after a lot of praying and counsel, I have really come to a place that is comfortable for me that makes the balance between "worship" and musical excellence an easy one to manage. It's a personal thing and everyone will have to settle up with God about it in their own way.

For me, I am fortunate in that I have been doing it long enough to not let the "fly by the seat of your pants" nature of live worship get in the way for me. I have learned and adapted, so now, the predictably unpredictable nature of Sunday mornings is just the way things are. It doesn't bother me. It is actually kind of fun, and IME, the unplanned elements often are more worshipful.

Personally, I don't mind the simplicity of some of the worship music. For a couple of reasons:

1. Some of the simple stuff has been what I have really seen inspire worship in the congregations. Tomlin's "How Great Is Our God" is about as simple as it gets. Nonetheless, it is a powerful worship song.

2. The simple stuff is often the opportunity for me to personally have a Holy Spirit interaction right then and there as part of the worship experience.

But, I don't limit my concept of worship to those types of experiences.

We also do stuff that is fairly challenging for me technically. It is not uncommon for me to be in a position that because of either the technical level of the tune or the level of preparedness, I am extremely focused on "performing" and playing excellently. The most commonly viewed concept of worship is nowhere on my mind.

That said, I have no problems at all with being that way. Here's where I am with it:

Leading worship is about facilitating congregational worship as well as personal worship. If my efforts are contributing, I see it as honoring God.

So what if I am riveted to a chart or totally engrossed in keeping my head ahead of my fingers. If God is using that message in song to move in life of another person, I am blessed to be piece of that tool.

I could rant forever, but I will stop. It's Todd's forum afterall.

Thanks Todd.






As for the book "The Heart of the Artist," I also recommend it. We went through it as a worship team a while back. There are some excellent discussion points in it.


++++++++++1

I also have found the value in simplicity and taking it as it comes. We practice quite a bit and sometimes I wish we did more because I do believe in giving it your all for Him. But I know I can spend so much time doing that, that I neglect Him.

Balance my freinds, balance.

I am very interested in this book you all speak of. I am going to try and order a copy.

++++++++++1

I also have found the value in simplicity and taking it as it comes. We practice quite a bit and sometimes I wish we did more because I do believe in giving it your all for Him. But I know I can spend so much time doing that, that I neglect Him.

Balance my freinds, balance.

I am very interested in this book you all speak of. I am going to try and order a copy.

Well put groov'ster; I whole-heartedly agree that we should give God our all in service to him, worship begins before we strap on the bass, and playing is just an extension of our lifestyle... but if we neglect to put down the instrument, no matter how good we sound... we will be but making noise.

This is coming from the FWIW column, but I have been doing worship at a fairly large church for a while now, and I have dealt with the issues mentioned here on and off most of that time. We produce for television all that kind of stuff, but mostly the worship leader is just the kind of personality that wants an extremely well-polished and overall high quality "production" at every service. I respect that and mostly appreciate it, but is has gotten in the way spiritually for me more than once.

So, after a lot of praying and counsel, I have really come to a place that is comfortable for me that makes the balance between "worship" and musical excellence an easy one to manage. It's a personal thing and everyone will have to settle up with God about it in their own way.

For me, I am fortunate in that I have been doing it long enough to not let the "fly by the seat of your pants" nature of live worship get in the way for me. I have learned and adapted, so now, the predictably unpredictable nature of Sunday mornings is just the way things are. It doesn't bother me. It is actually kind of fun, and IME, the unplanned elements often are more worshipful.

Personally, I don't mind the simplicity of some of the worship music. For a couple of reasons:

1. Some of the simple stuff has been what I have really seen inspire worship in the congregations. Tomlin's "How Great Is Our God" is about as simple as it gets. Nonetheless, it is a powerful worship song.

2. The simple stuff is often the opportunity for me to personally have a Holy Spirit interaction right then and there as part of the worship experience.

But, I don't limit my concept of worship to those types of experiences.

We also do stuff that is fairly challenging for me technically. It is not uncommon for me to be in a position that because of either the technical level of the tune or the level of preparedness, I am extremely focused on "performing" and playing excellently. The most commonly viewed concept of worship is nowhere on my mind.

That said, I have no problems at all with being that way. Here's where I am with it:

Leading worship is about facilitating congregational worship as well as personal worship. If my efforts are contributing, I see it as honoring God.

So what if I am riveted to a chart or totally engrossed in keeping my head ahead of my fingers. If God is using that message in song to move in the life of another person, I am blessed to be piece of that tool.

I could rant forever, but I will stop. It's Todd's forum afterall.

Thanks Todd.






As for the book "The Heart of the Artist," I also recommend it. We went through it as a worship team a while back. There are some excellent discussion points in it.

Hi Charles??? is that right??

Anyway.....

You are an eloquent man!! EXTEMELY well said......much better than anything I probably would have, or could have said.

I don't have anything to add other than I really appreciate your wonderful contributions to the thread......and to my forum for that matter. Well done my friend!!

Your fan,

That was articulated very well! Man, do I know those moments. I think it echoes what Jared has mentioned with respect to preparedness and responsibility. For to whom much has been given, much is expected (see the Parable of the Talents).

While I don't have the instruction or the experience that many of you on this forum do, I bust my butt to try and learn, grow, and be as prepared as possible so that I am bringing my best to the table every time. I've found it does a few things for me: it allows me to worship BECAUSE I am prepared, not in spite of it; it teaches me about character, obedience, and responsibility, three things I feel God has for His children if they follow Him; and it makes me a better player. The more I learn, the more I am able to translate what my heart wants to respond with. My songwriting grows and with it I am able to bring everything I can offer.

Dear Matt,

WOW.....home run!!!!! :hyper:

You and Charles are killing me!! You're both so right on.....PTL for that!!

Again, I don't have anything to add other than my thanks and my admiration for your eloquent post.

Well done my friend!!

Your fan,

++++++++++1

I also have found the value in simplicity and taking it as it comes. We practice quite a bit and sometimes I wish we did more because I do believe in giving it your all for Him. But I know I can spend so much time doing that, that I neglect Him.

Balance my freinds, balance.

I am very interested in this book you all speak of. I am going to try and order a copy.


Groov'ster,

You got it......BALANCE.....is the key!!

Man, all of you guys are just BEAUTIFUL!!! God has truly blessed me today by all of your responses.:hyper:

Bass players rule!!!:bassist:

Well put groov'ster; I whole-heartedly agree that we should give God our all in service to him, worship begins before we strap on the bass, and playing is just an extension of our lifestyle... but if we neglect to put down the instrument, no matter how good we sound... we will be but making noise.

Torch7,

Ditto..........ABSOLUTELY RIGHT ON!!

Thanks Torch7......like I've been saying.....you guys are right on the money!!

Thanks for your heart and great attitude!!!

GUYS!

This thread, I dont know about you, but I felt anointed as I read this! My heart burns with a desire to even give the best for God.

I am a youth pastor in my church and has been learning from 0 ... till now about 4 years in the ministry. Sure, we're all in for giving the best for the Lord here! WOW!

Adding to the books, check out Matt Redman's 'Unquenchable Worshipper'. Its a small book with heavy, anointed content!

It will inspired you as its on me. He will tells you the background of the song 'Heart of Worship', how they started out with superb worship team and loses the fire.

Although its not too relevant, any worship leader here? You have to read Ron Kenoly's "Lift Him Up", a really good practical book how to be a worship leader anointed to lead, 'father' the worship team, and still in-sync with the senior pastor's vision.

God bless guys,
JOhan

Groov'ster,

You got it......BALANCE.....is the key!!

Man, all of you guys are just BEAUTIFUL!!! God has truly blessed me today by all of your responses.:hyper:

Bass players rule!!!:bassist:

YEAP :)

Watch out not for us to practice too much, and forget the Audience of One haha

Blessings

YEAP :)

Watch out not for us to practice too much, and forget the Audience of One haha

Blessings


Johans,

Cool........now we have the worship pastors with us!!:cool:

Thanks for the suggested reading!!

This thread is turning into a cool thing.......

PTL!!:hyper:

This ia a great thread. Glad to see so many with simmilar views on bass and worship as myself.

:D

Sanch,

I'd love to come to Milwaukee. I'm going to be in Chicago and Indianapolis at the end of March .....first of April. Drop me a note off list....maybe we can put something together since I'll be that close.

Cool...:cool:

I'll be there Todd. Looking forward to the sessions and the worship time. This is a great thread and terrific insight. Been playing mostly guitar and some bass, and leading worship once in a while for 14 years here in the Chicago area. No better place to be than where God wants you to be! Be strong in Him!

I'll be there Todd. Looking forward to the sessions and the worship time. This is a great thread and terrific insight. Been playing mostly guitar and some bass, and leading worship once in a while for 14 years here in the Chicago area. No better place to be than where God wants you to be! Be strong in Him!

Thanks Tom!!

I'm really looking forward to seeing you in Chicago. It also looks like I'll be doing a couple of dates in Indianapolis and one in Kokomo.:hyper:

Thanks so much for your prayers and support.

See you soon,

Wow. I've been reading this thread off and on since it's been around.

It's funny, I've been thinking a lot of the same things over the last few months. I've been playing in my church since I first started playing bass. I think within my first two weeks of having a bass, I played at my youth group (I hope nobody has any form of recording of that...)

I've come so far as a musician since then. The first Wed. night I played, I put sticky notes on the neck because I didn't know any of the notes...

Now, I don't even have to think about what I'm playing. Unless I'm trying to push the envelope.

Sometimes people say, "why don't you sing?" I do sing, sometimes; but I think the view of worship in general has been so contorted in today's society. I mean, isn't worship mainly about our actions? Not repeated words sung by a large group of people. I mean, I see how the music is worship. It's about using our talents/blessings/lives to glorify God. For me, I worship by playing bass. I may not sing, but I'm going to play my bass like never before. There have been times that the spirit has just flowed; and I played things that I could never remember or play again. I think I even blacked out once... just mentally.

I don't know exactly what I'm trying to say. It's just that I've just seen God bless me in so many different ways as far as music goes. The acquisition of my current bass, and the one that's on it's way shows that so amazingly IMO. Sometimes I take His blessings for granted, sometimes I don't realize them right away; but when I do... I'm rendered pretty much speechless.

I honestly don't think that I could play music if it wasn't to glorify Him. Whenever I jam with secular bands, I walk away asking myself "what was the point of that?" I get nothing out of it. All I did was attempt to glorify myself. I need/deserve none. God, however, deserves it all.

I guess I see things differently. I have no problem jamming in a secular setting. I used to do accounting. Now because I wasn't a "christian" accountant, that is I did accounting for a "secular" company, did that mean I could not glorify God. If I fight fires is it essential that I do it in a spirit of worship and not actually concentrate on the training, or can I do both. I think that if my intention is service of God and mankind it really does not matter what I do. I believe I am absolutely free in Christ to do so. So unless people can literally do everything in a "non-secular" element I think they will leave the situation believing there is no point. But if you believe Christ has freed you to pursue all things then it is far less concerning about whether music is played for its cool chord progression or for revival. But in both situations you can trust God is glorified if your motive is pure. Now I understand there are limitations to this analogy, freedom gives me responsibility. In that light I cannot choose something deemed sinful by God as an honest holy pursuit. I am free to choose that which is sinful, but that does not mean God is necessarily glorified and that I am free from consequence. I think it does mean that if my purpose is to relate to God (and abstain from sinful behavior), even over an incredible song with seemingly pointless lyrics, I can still approach this music in a pure light. Music always gets the short end of the stick. A carwasher can glorify God by washing a Mercedes, owned by, a NON CHRISTIAN, but a musician cannot by playing a secular song. Truly I am not sure typing on TB is glorifying God, but my intentions and motives are kindhearted. When we post outside of the christian topics on this board are we in the wrong by not glorifying God at that particular moment. I hope this does not seem as a slam. I intend it to be a different point of view, that is all. I agree with one thing you said wholeheartedly, "for me, I worship by playing my bass."


Wow. I've been reading this thread off and on since it's been around.

It's funny, I've been thinking a lot of the same things over the last few months. I've been playing in my church since I first started playing bass. I think within my first two weeks of having a bass, I played at my youth group (I hope nobody has any form of recording of that...)

I've come so far as a musician since then. The first Wed. night I played, I put sticky notes on the neck because I didn't know any of the notes...

Now, I don't even have to think about what I'm playing. Unless I'm trying to push the envelope.

Sometimes people say, "why don't you sing?" I do sing, sometimes; but I think the view of worship in general has been so contorted in today's society. I mean, isn't worship mainly about our actions? Not repeated words sung by a large group of people. I mean, I see how the music is worship. It's about using our talents/blessings/lives to glorify God. For me, I worship by playing bass. I may not sing, but I'm going to play my bass like never before. There have been times that the spirit has just flowed; and I played things that I could never remember or play again. I think I even blacked out once... just mentally.

I don't know exactly what I'm trying to say. It's just that I've just seen God bless me in so many different ways as far as music goes. The acquisition of my current bass, and the one that's on it's way shows that so amazingly IMO. Sometimes I take His blessings for granted, sometimes I don't realize them right away; but when I do... I'm rendered pretty much speechless.

I honestly don't think that I could play music if it wasn't to glorify Him. Whenever I jam with secular bands, I walk away asking myself "what was the point of that?" I get nothing out of it. All I did was attempt to glorify myself. I need/deserve none. God, however, deserves it all.

Wow. I've been reading this thread off and on since it's been around.

It's funny, I've been thinking a lot of the same things over the last few months. I've been playing in my church since I first started playing bass. I think within my first two weeks of having a bass, I played at my youth group (I hope nobody has any form of recording of that...)

I've come so far as a musician since then. The first Wed. night I played, I put sticky notes on the neck because I didn't know any of the notes...

Now, I don't even have to think about what I'm playing. Unless I'm trying to push the envelope.

Sometimes people say, "why don't you sing?" I do sing, sometimes; but I think the view of worship in general has been so contorted in today's society. I mean, isn't worship mainly about our actions? Not repeated words sung by a large group of people. I mean, I see how the music is worship. It's about using our talents/blessings/lives to glorify God. For me, I worship by playing bass. I may not sing, but I'm going to play my bass like never before. There have been times that the spirit has just flowed; and I played things that I could never remember or play again. I think I even blacked out once... just mentally.

I don't know exactly what I'm trying to say. It's just that I've just seen God bless me in so many different ways as far as music goes. The acquisition of my current bass, and the one that's on it's way shows that so amazingly IMO. Sometimes I take His blessings for granted, sometimes I don't realize them right away; but when I do... I'm rendered pretty much speechless.

I honestly don't think that I could play music if it wasn't to glorify Him. Whenever I jam with secular bands, I walk away asking myself "what was the point of that?" I get nothing out of it. All I did was attempt to glorify myself. I need/deserve none. God, however, deserves it all.

OpaqueBass,

Hey, keep up the good work......keep improving as a musician...it's an endless process.

I appreciate your positive contributions!!

One thought: Sometimes we'll be in a "jam" etc....some kind of secular situation....Heck, I play in jazz clubs all the time....but my heart and my efforts are to please God with ALL that I do.....I fall short....but that's what I'm shooting for. I have to focus on the fact that we're called to be "salt and light"......

When you're in one of those "secular band" situations pray for an opportunity to share the gospel with those that are lost....pray for them on the way to the session....while you're there....when you're on the way home. Hopefully they'll notice "Christ's Light" shining from you.....you'll be surprised at the opportunity's that God will send your way.

Sometimes it's just an opportunity to "love" and "serve" others. That'll seperate you and make you different right there!!

Anyway....that's my 2 cents worth....and my experience FWIW.

Keep making a joyful sound!!:D

I guess I see things differently. I have no problem jamming in a secular setting. I used to do accounting. Now because I wasn't a "christian" accountant, that is I did accounting for a "secular" company, did that mean I could not glorify God. If I fight fires is it essential that I do it in a spirit of worship and not actually concentrate on the training, or can I do both. I think that if my intention is service of God and mankind it really does not matter what I do. I believe I am absolutely free in Christ to do so. So unless people can literally do everything in a "non-secular" element I think they will leave the situation believing there is no point. But if you believe Christ has freed you to pursue all things then it is far less concerning about whether music is played for its cool chord progression or for revival. But in both situations you can trust God is glorified if your motive is pure. Now I understand there are limitations to this analogy, freedom gives me responsibility. In that light I cannot choose something deemed sinful by God as an honest holy pursuit. I am free to choose that which is sinful, but that does not mean God is necessarily glorified and that I am free from consequence. I think it does mean that if my purpose is to relate to God (and abstain from sinful behavior), even over an incredible song with seemingly pointless lyrics, I can still approach this music in a pure light. Music always gets the short end of the stick. A carwasher can glorify God by washing a Mercedes, owned by, a NON CHRISTIAN, but a musician cannot by playing a secular song. Truly I am not sure typing on TB is glorifying God, but my intentions and motives are kindhearted. When we post outside of the christian topics on this board are we in the wrong by not glorifying God at that particular moment. I hope this does not seem as a slam. I intend it to be a different point of view, that is all. I agree with one thiong you said wholeheartedly, "for me, I worship by playing my bass."


ii-v, (great name btw!)

Hey, thanks for your positive contributions!:)

Keep up the worship!!

This is an awesome thread guys. I keep expecting the politically correct police to rush in and say "all right, break it up!"

Lots of good stuff here. Lots of expression of stuff I have been thinking and praying about myself. From the simplest song to the most difficult, having your heart in it is the thing. When God's Spirit shows up it's just like nothing else. Playing secular music can be fun too but when God shows up during worship..., the world has nothing to compare to that.

As I'm rereading my post, I'm thinking that it may have come across differently than I meant.

I love playing music - secular or not. I view secular music differently that some people do I think. I definitely don't limit myself to listening only to christian music. However, I do draw the line at certain points.

I have no problem jamming/rocking out with a secular band; but as far as being a permanent bassist... I'm pretty hesitant. If I were to take a position, I'd definitely have to analyze it and make sure that it's a good situation to be in as far as the overall message their trying to portray. My last band played more mainstream, secular if you will, music; but we were all Christians and our ultimate goal was to minister to people (whether other bands on tour, fans, producers, etc.). We weren't necesarily vocal about our faith onstage; but behind the scenes: we meant business.

What I mainly meant by my statement was that when I play with people in a non-ministry setting, I just don't enjoy it as much. The spirit doesn't move, and people are only trying to uplift themselves and recieve glory from others. I personally could care less if people think I'm a good bass player or not (though I like to think I'm a'ight), I just want them to see my heart and the work and effort that I put into my music. From there maybe a conversation will start...

OpaqueBass,

Hey, keep up the good work......keep improving as a musician...it's an endless process.

I appreciate your positive contributions!!

One thought: Sometimes we'll be in a "jam" etc....some kind of secular situation....Heck, I play in jazz clubs all the time....but my heart and my efforts are to please God with ALL that I do.....I fall short....but that's what I'm shooting for. I have to focus on the fact that we're called to be "salt and light"......

When you're in one of those "secular band" situations pray for an opportunity to share the gospel with those that are lost....pray for them on the way to the session....while you're there....when you're on the way home. Hopefully they'll notice "Christ's Light" shining from you.....you'll be surprised at the opportunity's that God will send your way.

Sometimes it's just an opportunity to "love" and "serve" others. That'll seperate you and make you different right there!!

Anyway....that's my 2 cents worth....and my experience FWIW.

Keep making a joyful sound!!:D

Thanks for sharing this Todd. I try to please God in everything I do especially playing music. I too fall shory on a consistent basis, but I know that he is there to a). forgive me, and b). pick me up.

Yesterday at church was probably the best song service we have had. There is no doubt that wew were letting the Holy Spirit move in us. We struggle as a church band most of the time due to the lack of experience from all the musicians. It gets frustrating at times where I just want to walk out. I dont, because I can't glorify God if I do, and that is the point of me playing the bass. I know it will all come together in time, and after yesterday I think everyone knows that now.

I think some people approach music as a "Musical Levite", (I didn't know what else it could be called) Myself being included I only listen to and play Christian Music.... but thats just me, I don't condem or look down my nose at others who choose to play secular music.

However I do think there should be limits placed on our liberty as musicians, me playing or listening to an R. Kelly song would be just tooo confusing to some of my students, most of what he talks about contradicts what I teach on Wednesday nights and Sunday mornings, and would defile my mind as a Christian so I abstain. The word of God clearly states that our liberties, should be at the expense of other believers.

I wholeheartedly agree with ii-v on the point that we cannot live apart from the secular world, however; we do have to view lifestyle choices in the light of God's word. There is an obvious difference if I am an Christian who works in an accounting office, than If I am a Christian who works in Strip Club.

I know these seem to be extreme examples but with the demographic that I minister to these examples arent extreme at all.

I think some people approach music as a "Musical Levite", (I didn't know what else it could be called) Myself being included I only listen to and play Christian Music.... but thats just me, I don't condem or look down my nose at others who choose to play secular music.

However I do think there should be limits placed on our liberty as musicians, me playing or listening to an R. Kelly song would be just tooo confusing to some of my students, most of what he talks about contradicts what I teach on Wednesday nights and Sunday mornings, and would defile my mind as a Christian so I abstain. The word of God clearly states that our liberties, should be at the expense of other believers.

I wholeheartedly agree with ii-v on the point that we cannot live apart from the secular world, however; we do have to view lifestyle choices in the light of God's word. There is an obvious difference if I am an Christian who works in an accounting office, than If I am a Christian who works in Strip Club.

I know these seem to be extreme examples but with the demographic that I minister to these examples arent extreme at all.

I'm going to sum up my thoughts on this with one word...

Word.

However I do think there should be limits placed on our liberty as musicians, me playing or listening to an R. Kelly song would be just tooo confusing to some of my students, most of what he talks about contradicts what I teach on Wednesday nights and Sunday mornings, and would defile my mind as a Christian so I abstain. The word of God clearly states that our liberties, should be at the expense of other believers.

I wholeheartedly agree with ii-v on the point that we cannot live apart from the secular world, however; we do have to view lifestyle choices in the light of God's word. There is an obvious difference if I am an Christian who works in an accounting office, than If I am a Christian who works in Strip Club.
Pursuing a career in the entertainment industry is incredibly dangerous, spiritually, with all the temptations and the opportunities to compromise your faith. I don’t think it’s a wise way to go if you can do anything else. Or even if you can’t.

I remember reading about some woman many years ago who supposedly got saved. She was a stripper, so afterward she became a “stripper for Christ”. Talk about ignorance gone to seed. I thought it was hilarious; I wasn’t saved at the time, but it shows your examples aren't really as extreme as they sound.

So is the stripper the musician in your analogy. I could not figure out where you were going with that. That is kind of what I meant by music gets the short end of the stick. It seems you jumped ship on talking about music and linked music with stripping. I could site examples of music that I should not play and you would agree with every one of them. But, my post was tempered with phrases like responsibility and abstaining from sin, therefore, I don't find it necessary to talk about music I should not play. Please let me know if I am misinterpreting your post. On the other hand I completely agree with everything else in your post. I do see the accountant being different from the stripper, but I do not follow the logic of it being in this discussion. The stripper to me serves as a "strawman argument".

As far as your choice to play and listen to christian music, I think that is fantastic.
I think some people approach music as a "Musical Levite", (I didn't know what else it could be called) Myself being included I only listen to and play Christian Music.... but thats just me, I don't condem or look down my nose at others who choose to play secular music.

However I do think there should be limits placed on our liberty as musicians, me playing or listening to an R. Kelly song would be just tooo confusing to some of my students, most of what he talks about contradicts what I teach on Wednesday nights and Sunday mornings, and would defile my mind as a Christian so I abstain. The word of God clearly states that our liberties, should be at the expense of other believers.

I wholeheartedly agree with ii-v on the point that we cannot live apart from the secular world, however; we do have to view lifestyle choices in the light of God's word. There is an obvious difference if I am an Christian who works in an accounting office, than If I am a Christian who works in Strip Club.

I know these seem to be extreme examples but with the demographic that I minister to these examples arent extreme at all.

So is the stripper the musician in your analogy. I could not figure out where you were going with that. That is kind of what I meant by music gets the short end of the stick. It seems you jumped ship on talking about music and linked music with stripping. I could site examples of music that I should not play and you would agree with every one of them. But, my post was tempered with phrases like responsibility and abstaining from sin, therefore, I don't find it necessary to talk about music I should not play. Please let me know if I am misinterpreting your post. On the other hand I completely agree with everything else in your post. I do see the accountant being different from the stripper, but I do not follow the logic of it being in this discussion. The stripper to me serves as a "strawman argument".

As far as your choice to play and listen to christian music, I think that is fantastic.
He's just saying that there are some activities that may be alright for HIM, but might mislead those who look at him.

The Apostle Paul has this to say about eating foods that are seen as "unclean," which can be paralleled to activities that are seen as "unChristian":

Romans 20:13 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. 14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food[b] is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.

19Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.

So yeah, it's something to think about. Maybe you wouldn't be tempted by doing a secular activity, but if others looking at you as a Christian example might stumble by you doing what you do, you need to reconsider why you're doing it.

That's what I got out of his post, anyway.

Like many have said, great discussion. A couple of things to add:

I'm really digging on the concept right now about how preparing to lead others to worship is worship in and of itself. So for me, that is where I get my "dose" of worship, so to speak (not that we can't worship at all times). During the worship service, I'm focusing on playing my best - honoring God by fulfilling my role as a musician, without so much trying to "get something out of it".

It's interesting to me that I should run across this thread because I've been thinking about this topic a lot recently, after reading the book Effortlesss Mastery (http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=WM0sBrtClO&isbn=156224003X&TXT=Y&itm=1), by Kenny Werner. It's not a Christian book, and has a lot of ambiguous spirituality in it (and to be honest, some heretical notions), but it makes some excellent points as well, and for me was very helpful in "unlocking" musical ability. It deals a lot with removing inhibitions in our approach to music, something that I definitely needed.

Anyway, the other thing I wanted to do was give a couple of plugs for books that I can endorse without any spiritual reservations:

The Dynamics of Worship (http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/product?item_no=56576&netp_id=372676&event=ESRCN&item_code=WW), James P. Gills, M.D.
Gills in this book examines the true meaning of worship in our lives, throughout our lives, and not just limited to the realm of segregational worship music. A great resource for any Christian musician.

At the Crossroads (http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/product?item_no=881286&netp_id=340205&event=ESRCN&item_code=WW), Charlie Peacock
Peacock (you've probably heard of him) is a Christian music producer that has worked with many well-known CCM musicians, as well as being a musician himself. In his book he addresses the issue of CCM, it's relevance to Christians and the world, and spends a lot of time talking about having a "Kingdom perspective". He also talks about what is "Christian music", and whether that does/should apply to any music made by a Christian, or if it is just limited to music that directly praises God, or exhorts others to worship God. A must read!

He's just saying that there are some activities that may be alright for HIM, but might mislead those who look at him.

The Apostle Paul has this to say about eating foods that are seen as "unclean," which can be paralleled to activities that are seen as "unChristian":

Romans 20:13 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. 14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food[b] is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.

19Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.

So yeah, it's something to think about. Maybe you wouldn't be tempted by doing a secular activity, but if others looking at you as a Christian example might stumble by you doing what you do, you need to reconsider why you're doing it.

That's what I got out of his post, anyway.


Thanks Dkerwoodm;

That was exactly what I was saying in my post.

ii-v;
I mentioned the stripper and accountant merely because it was said.

Now because I wasn't a "christian" accountant, that is I did accounting for a "secular" company, did that mean I could not glorify God.

I had a similiar discussion on another website about playing secular music, and a believer was using that exact argument. I was merely adding a balance to your statement, that an accountant can glorify God while a stripper cannot. I hope I am not being too confusing.

I think music gets scrutinized more because, there is a particular power behind music, and us as musicians need to be responsible with this power we have at our disposal.

Barthanatos-
Those books just went on my must-have list. Thanks very much for posting that.

No problem. They're those kind of books that make you want to buy copies for all your friends and just give them away.

This thread is bound for stickydom!

Rom. 14:13?

I still do not understand the comparison, but I do not think that I have to either. Here is why I don't get it.

In both jobs I spoke of sin is not a requirement, to be a stripper it (sin) is a requirement (according to christianity). That is why it through me off. Torch7 can say: "playing secular music is like stripping to my conscience".
I have no right to tell him to sin against his conscience. However, it would be in the wrong for him to say, "playing secular music is akin to stripping".

That said, he may not have meant either example I gave. The ex. I gave used an accountant and a musician. My question is which did the stripper replace in the analogy?

Great discussion, I enjoy the tone of each post, low key yet productive.

The comparisons you guys are bringing up are reminding me of xxxchurch.com

If you haven't checked this out, it's a pretty cool organization. They're trying to take on the issue of pornography. I read an article about them in Relevant magazine a week or two ago. It talked about how they went to a huge porn convention, spreading their message. I think that takes a lot of guts. I mean, they're reaching people that probably wouldn't be otherwise reached. They've changed the lives of pornstars, addicts, execs., etc. How did they do it? By diving head first into the heart of the issue at hand.

I'm probably not in any place to comment on it; but I don't know if the stripper necessarily had to replace anything in the analogy. It seemed to me like it was more a sense of location (working in a business firm vs. strip club?). You can honor God, IMO, in either position. Obviously, it would be MUCH harder to do in a strip club; but still possible. It's the way that you use it.

While I do not agree with honoring God in either location, I appreciate your response.

The comparisons you guys are bringing up are reminding me of xxxchurch.com

If you haven't checked this out, it's a pretty cool organization. They're trying to take on the issue of pornography. I read an article about them in Relevant magazine a week or two ago. It talked about how they went to a huge porn convention, spreading their message. I think that takes a lot of guts. I mean, they're reaching people that probably wouldn't be otherwise reached. They've changed the lives of pornstars, addicts, execs., etc. How did they do it? By diving head first into the heart of the issue at hand.

I'm probably not in any place to comment on it; but I don't know if the stripper necessarily had to replace anything in the analogy. It seemed to me like it was more a sense of location (working in a business firm vs. strip club?). You can honor God, IMO, in either position. Obviously, it would be MUCH harder to do in a strip club; but still possible. It's the way that you use it.

Rom. 14:13?

I still do not understand the comparison, but I do not think that I have to either. Here is why I don't get it.

In both jobs I spoke of sin is not a requirement, to be a stripper it (sin) is a requirement (according to christianity). That is why it through me off. Torch7 can say: "playing secular music is like stripping to my conscience".
I have no right to tell him to sin against his conscience. However, it would be in the wrong for him to say, "playing secular music is akin to stripping".

That said, he may not have meant either example I gave. The ex. I gave used an accountant and a musician. My question is which did the stripper replace in the analogy?

Great discussion, I enjoy the tone of each post, low key yet productive.

You were using an accountant as an example of an activity that does not necessarily involve sin - as a counterpart to playing music. Your argument was that the "secular" activity does not detract from your personal ministry.

The example of the stripper was used similarly - but to illustrate the other side of the coin. Certain types of music and situations for a musician lend themselves more easily to a sinful lifestyle - and certainly can lead others to question your ministry.

Obviously, this likely wouldn't apply to you or most of the posters on this thread, but you can't deny that there are some musical situations that a Christian should not in good conscience be a part of - hence the "stripper" example.

I totally agree about your point on situations. However, playing secular music does not require me to sin, stripping does. When putting together an analogy it is important to give apples to apples comparisons. His ex. in my view is an apple to orange. However, I agree that stripping and or strip clubs are reprehensible. If his logic follows we could insert world dictator (Hitler) in his example. And I just do not see the point in doing that, that's all. I guess explaining further to me is not going to help, my view is that it is unapplicable to what we are discussing, but given the right topic I think his outcome is completely right and the verses sited are very applicable.

You were using an accountant as an example of an activity that does not necessarily involve sin - as a counterpart to playing music. Your argument was that the "secular" activity does not detract from your personal ministry.

The example of the stripper was used similarly - but to illustrate the other side of the coin. Certain types of music and situations for a musician lend themselves more easily to a sinful lifestyle - and certainly can lead others to question your ministry.

Obviously, this likely wouldn't apply to you or most of the posters on this thread, but you can't deny that there are some musical situations that a Christian should not in good conscience be a part of - hence the "stripper" example.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/12/05/wstrip05.xml

http://perimeter-community.followers.net/In_The_News___.AJC_-_Stripper_Ministry_-_4-8-05

Interesting.

It seems that God can and does work wherever He chooses.

Thank God that He is God and not we, eh? :)

My apologies for not spending more time in posting, so that my thoughts would be clearer.

The stripper analogy was merely to show, that on one extreme secular professions you can glorify God, in what you do, while on the other extreme you cannot. So the issue is not so cut and dry when it comes to secular & non-secular.

I do not mean to lump all secular music into one category, but the vast majority of what I was exposed to, I see no way of God getting glory in it. I realize that I haven't been exposed to every genre, and style, but I am speaking out of my experience, and I know this is limited.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/12/05/wstrip05.xml

http://perimeter-community.followers.net/In_The_News___.AJC_-_Stripper_Ministry_-_4-8-05

Interesting.

It seems that God can and does work wherever He chooses.

Thank God that He is God and not we, eh? :)

I only read the first story...but there is a fundamental difference in what these ladies are doing, they are no longer strippers, but paying for a private dance, and then ministering the Word of God, you see their primary reason for being at the club is to be a witness in the midst of darkness. It just wouldn't work if it were a stipper taken off their clothes while preaching the gospel.

Hi Friends,

Hey, I'm really enjoying the input from everybody.....

I do however want to make sure this doesn't turn into a theology/bashing thing......

So far everyone is cool.....:cool: ....and the tone is respectful.....:hyper: ......that's TOTALLY appreciated!!!....:D

I just don't want things to get "too" heavy.....OK???

....or we can take that kind of stuff off list etc. and discuss it there. This is the "ask Todd Johnson" forum after all..........

Thanks for your understanding!!

Cool. Back to...

The original question about musical competency is important to me. I don't have a teacher, or a venue to play in outside of church, assuming I could find one that fit. Finding a way to improve has been a challenge for a marginally talented person like myself. It doesn't help that things in my church have been a little disorganized due to tragedies that occurred last year, and we don't take much time for practice. I think I'm going to look into ordering your technique DVD, since that's really one area that might help me for the rest of my playing career.

As far as excellence in playing is concerned, I believe in doing my part by doing my best (with what I have to work with), and for the rest of it I really rely on God. Not always, but there are times when His presence will bring me up a step, and it seems my tone, timing and note choice all improve in a way.

Cool. Back to...

The original question about musical competency is important to me. I don't have a teacher, or a venue to play in outside of church, assuming I could find one that fit. Finding a way to improve has been a challenge for a marginally talented person like myself. It doesn't help that things in my church have been a little disorganized due to tragedies that occurred last year, and we don't take much time for practice. I think I'm going to look into ordering your technique DVD, since that's really one area that might help me for the rest of my playing career.

As far as excellence in playing is concerned, I believe in doing my part by doing my best (with what I have to work with), and for the rest of it I really rely on God. Not always, but there are times when His presence will bring me up a step, and it seems my tone, timing and note choice all improve in a way.

Hi Elwood,

You're totally right on!:cool:

It's just SO important to be striving and working to improve as musicians.....to make the music as good as we can....God will honor that.....We just "owe" him our best.....especially after the price he paid for us!!!

I'm confident the DVD will be a big help.

Hey, I'm studying all the time.....constantly trying to improve...trying to make the music as good as I can....

Sometimes I make it ......:hyper: ......sometimes I don't....:help: ......it's about offering my best to God.

Keep up the good work!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/12/05/wstrip05.xml

http://perimeter-community.followers.net/In_The_News___.AJC_-_Stripper_Ministry_-_4-8-05

Interesting.

It seems that God can and does work wherever He chooses.

Thank God that He is God and not we, eh? :)

Puff Father (great name!)

You got it Daddy!!!

God works wherever chooses.....He also uses "clay pots" like you and me. :D AMAZING!!! Praise Him for that!!

Thanks!

My apologies for not spending more time in posting, so that my thoughts would be clearer.

The stripper analogy was merely to show, that on one extreme secular professions you can glorify God, in what you do, while on the other extreme you cannot. So the issue is not so cut and dry when it comes to secular & non-secular.

I do not mean to lump all secular music into one category, but the vast majority of what I was exposed to, I see no way of God getting glory in it. I realize that I haven't been exposed to every genre, and style, but I am speaking out of my experience, and I know this is limited.
Agreed. There is a lot of secular music which simply cannot be presented without being sinful. How could a Christian, for example, play in Marilyn Manson's band? Or Ozzie Osbourne? The music and the Christian lifestyle simply don't match.

Even beyond those extreme examples, though, a LOT of secular music (especially rock music) is about sex, drugs, alcohol, partying, and general self glorification. Christians need to be very very careful about participating here, because although they can easily play those songs without believing their message, it can send a strange mixed message to those who might look at these musicians as Christian examples.

For example: I had a friend who led his praise team at church. Meanwhile, he was in a secular band that was gaining quite a regional following. They were even doing a fair bit of nation-wide touring, hitting each coast about once a year. They were almost a cliched "party band"... most of the songs were love songs to anonymous girls or songs about road trips or parties or drinking... They were a big hit with the college crowd, as you might expect.

They also would traditionally drink before and after the show, just to loosen up a little. My friend didn't have a problem with legal, responsible drinking (nor do I), and they never would drink onstage. His church was fine with how he presented himself (and so am I, FWIW), but I know of at least 2 people who looked at him as a vocal Christian, and decided that he seemed to have no noticable difference from his secular counterparts. The songs he was playing were the same, he drank the same as they did (he didn't get drunk, but that part was often ignored, as were his personal motives).

Was he wrong to do as he did? I don't think so necessarily, but he did lose his chance to minister to those 2 people. I do know that he had many chances to minister to others, so the positives rather outweigh the negatives in this case, but I hope you see my point.

Sorry. I'll drop this side issue now. :D

I think this is the issue. Of course, it goes much deeper than music, but "free in Christ" to one may easily be a problem for another.

Yeah, there's a fine line there.......

I personally don't want to do anything to make my "brother" stumble.....

....a fine line indeed!!

I need to go pray.......and PRACTICE!!!:bassist:

I think this is the issue. Of course, it goes much deeper than music, but "free in Christ" to one may easily be a problem for another.
Interesting. I hadn't thought much about how this issue might relate to the main issue of this thread. I wonder if my specific attitude toward preparation of church music has some adverse effect on my praise team members...

I'll join TJ at the prayer altar... and then in the practice room!

I'm going to tell a little story to illustrate the other side of the coin of preparedness.

Years back when I was going to my first church in VA the pastor there loved music, and would let just about anybody sing a "special". All they had to do was ask. We were a mixture of Navy (just outside one of the NOB gates) and a core of regulars, with a diverse congregation. There were a lot of young adults. Every so often the pastor would cancel the Sunday evening service in favor of having a "sing-a-thon" early afternoon service. We'd leave after morning service, go have lunch and spend the afternoon listening to a parade of people do specials, and that was the service.

So, we were having one of these type services, and about 6 people had gone and done something already when a small black woman came up to sing. She had a very anointed ministry in singing, and never failed to bless the congregation when she ministered. She sang like a bird, wonderful natural talent to go with the calling.

That was kind of like the cap of the service, but there was one more young fellow that had asked to sing, but hadn't sung yet. He had to follow her- not something I would have wanted to try. Plus, he had never sung in service before. His voice was, well, hardly what you would call solo quality. He couldn't rely on his natural talent, because he really didn't have any.

He got on the platform and sang, "Jesus be Jesus in Me". If you've never seen anything like this, you might not understand what I describe next, but as he sang, the glory of God entered the sanctuary. It was visible, and appeared to me like a heavy fog, and felt almost like electricity. As the "cloud" moved over the congregation, people were getting set free by the power of God. I know, I was one of them. And so was one of my friends, who was only a few feet from me.

I have only seen a manifestation of God like this a couple of times in 20 years as a Christian, and I tell you, when the Bible says "we can do nothing without Him", it means it. I realize that even if I could play like Vic Wooten, or Dickens, or Jaco or Clark, it would have no lasting value unless God was in it. I definitely have a responsibility to do my part, but at the end of the day, it's got to be God.

Now, here's the final point. That young gentleman, who could hardly sing but was used so mightily by God, was the most humble, soft-hearted Christian I have ever had the pleasure to know. It convinced me of one thing- if I want to be used of God, practising obedience and devotion to God will get more done than practising the instrument.

Elwood

I know what you are saying about when God shows up, in such a manifested way, its an awesome site. We have some very anointed services, where God really moves, because we are taught to seek God all throughout the week, and have the attitude "I was glad when they said to me, Let us Go into the House of the Lord" for Sunday mornings. We went through a period at our Church, when we were praying and fasting as a congregation, for some specific direction. And God showed up that way each and every Sunday, for like 5 or 6 Services, the Wednesday Night Services were blessed, but Sunday mornings were nothing short of Awesome.

Pastor never got to the preached word, because the Spirit would fall so heavily, during praise and worship, that people would come to the alter to be saved with Tears in their eyes, Teenagers, older people it was simply amazing... This would last for hours, I get shivers just thinking about it. (I wasn't playing the bass at that time...hey wait a minute :confused: ...never mind. )

I practice and prepare so that when God decides to use this tool, it will be sharp and ready to do the bidding of its master. Preparation for me is key to my confidence, so that my finite mind, doesn't hinder the flow, when things begin to happen in the sanctuary.

Our praise and worship leader was our Pastor, before he passed the reigns to our current Praise and Worship Leader, who took the heart and passion of our Pastor for praise through music, and is very very serious about glorifying God through the ministry. Alot is Expected from the Singers as well as the musicians (Who are all Preachers as well). We are asked to prepare atleast 10 hours a week, which is a little hard for me, because I am the Youth Pastor, as well as having a full-time job, and 4 kids, and I just got through with a 2 year home building project. But I manage to get it done, at obscure hours, as not to detract from other respoonsibilities. I think without practice I could possibly hinder what God is trying to do, I wouldn't have liberty to do certain things, that I might be led to do. In our Friday Night Practice sessions, there is a certain freedom, because I think some inhabitions a lifted and there is a sense that you could try different things. The Freedom has caused for many people to show up to watch practice, because sometimes its more powerful than Sunday mornings.

But I definately know what you mean about God being able to move, and use whatever vessel he so chooses.

I’m right there with you! Getting blessed just reading your post. When you’re in the presence of the Lord like that, you come out changed, too.

If you were here, we’d have to spend some time sharing about this and have some blessed prayer.

You hit on some really important points, and I have to say “amen”. :)

When you’re in the presence of the Lord like that, you come out changed, too.

If you were here, we’d have to spend some time sharing about this and have some blessed prayer.



No Doubt.

There is nothing in the secular world that can compare to what you have described. (In the Universe for that matter :) )

Playing in a lousy praise team with hearts that are in one accord with the Lord is better than being in the hottest band in the secular world. Of course, I'll never even be close to being in that hot band, but I'll bet that's true! :D But not in the gambling sense of the word bet..., I, er, um... gosh, Christians can be a difficult lot! :hiding:

"... knowing you, Jesus, knowing you,
There is no greater thing..."

Wow! I have read through this entire thread and there are some very important points an observations made.
Well, I am the Senior Pastor of a growing mid-size church, prior to the call to preach I served as a church muscian for 18 years on the keys.
Prior to that a professional musician. I hope it is obvious that music is and has been an important part of my life, as a musician and pastor I believe I have a different perspective on this. We as a ministry have been really blessed with several professional very capable musicians.
My conviction is that God deserves quality in all that we do for him, mediocre musicianship is unacceptable to me, we should strive to improve our abilities in what we do that God may get the glory from our various gifts and talents. That said the other side of the coin has a lot to do with the attitude that we display when we are in service to and for the Lord. Case in point, it has bothered me that many of the good muscians today who play for churches, are doing just that playing for the church, they enjoy playing but they also enjoy getting paid. Now I understand this remember I was a church muscian. What I don't see are those who really have a heart for God, there are those who would forsake the ministry for the gig. whoever pays the most. It further saddens me that there doesn't seem to be a desire or maybe we don't have the ability to inspire the youth today to play for the Lord.
Example: How I ended up on bass; We had one bass player (this brother had mad skills) just over night called said he was going on tour and sorry for the short notice. When we shortly therafter replaced him, this brother stated that where he was wasn't fulfilling, and there were to many ego's there. We hired him agreed on a figure, two months later he goes back stating that he needed more money and they were willing to pay it. We also had a keyboard player leave to be the MD for the Isley Bro.

So I picked up the bass an instrument I had not played in about 20+ years, I am taking lessons because the group of guys at our church are excellent muscians. We have choir rehearsals a separate musicians rehearsal. So we spend time on our muscianship, my approach is that they expect a quality prepared message, I must