Hi, this is a general call to all of you about to graduate high school and start conservatory level training.

what do you expect to get out of your music school experience other than chops to get a great job ?

The reason I ask this is that in the past years I have seen an increasing amount of young people start studying at this level without any real idea of what it is they expect from a musical education.

I was recently informed that only 12% of ALL graduates from music schools actually make their livings from what they studied, music.
I know that when I was 18 and if Homer told me this I would probably have said what I felt at the time which was "yeah but thats not me, I'll get a job"¨

I know so many extremely talented musicians who become so jaded after their conservatory experience and real life hits full force.
This was in the days when only 50 basists would show up for an audition.

I also remember Roger scott saying at my audition, " Don't put your eggs in one basket"
I had no clue back then. Then again I didn't even know what a modem was either....

OK I look forward to your responses.
Maybe this will take the heat off Masterbass for a while

G

Going into a conservatory, there is much more to me than just getting a job when I get out. Music is my life and it has had such a huge impact on my life and experiences.

When I am in the conservatory, studying music is something that I feel I can learn more from than studying books. Music is a very emotional thing. To play music is to portry an emotion to an audience and hope that they feel the same way. To learn how to connect with something emotionally and put every bit of energy I possess into it and then try to portray that to others is in my mind the greatest education one can receive.

After undergraduate and maybe even graduate education there is more that I am looking for then a job with a major symphony orchestra. Of course I have dreamed since I can remember about getting a job in the NY Phil or the Met Opera (growing up in NYC), but I would like to take music and give it to teenagers.

I have been so fortunate to attend the pre-college program at Juilliard and attend a school with a great music program, but there are so many kids who don't have that. Many students coming into my highschool are now beginning players and it is a shame that they cannot be exposed to music.

I attend many symphony and opera concerts and constantly find myself being one of the youngest persons there. To me, attending a conservatory is much more than just getting a job right after college. It is a passion, and a fire inside of me which I wish to be able to share with everybody I come in contact with.

I will work to get a symphony orchestra job when I leave college, as it is my dream, but I hope this has supplied the answer to your question with my insight into music and the conservatory atmosphere.

You have to want to play bad enough that you find a way to feed yourself with it. This includes everything, up to and including a day job. You also have to have realistic expections for your lifestyle. Music isn't a job, but a way of life. If you want a job you need to check out engineering or nursing or something.

I'm at Idyllwild Arts Academy, so I'm essentially already in a conservatory setting, in a sense. I've got a steady chamber group, orchestra rehearsals a couple times a week, Theory classes a couple of times a week, jazz classes daily, I usually get in about 5-8 hours of playing time a day. I honestly don't care what happens to me after college. I wan't to be involved in music because for as long as I can remember, music has been my life, music has been my soul. It's an incredible esperiance when your playing in an exceptional orchestra, or when your jazz combo is really getting hot.

I would love to get a job, but more importantly I want to learn. I would love to play in a premire orchestra, but more importantly I want to play.

That's what I expect out of music school.

I was recently informed that only 12% of ALL graduates from music schools actually make their livings from what they studied, music.


G

12% ???!!??

It's more like 5%.

And that figure is from the golden era "when only 50 basists would show up for an audition."


As dismal as that may sound, consider this.....
Only 25% of ALL college graduates actually work in the field that they trained in. And that figure is also from the same golden era "when college graduates had job security."

12% ???!!??

It's more like 5%.

And that figure is from the golden era "when only 50 basists would show up for an audition."


As dismal as that may sound, consider this.....
Only 25% of ALL college graduates actually work in the field that they trained in. And that figure is also from the same golden era "when college graduates had job security."
-----------------------------------------------------------
My friends, you have struck upon such a poignant subject!!! One that no teachers want their incomong studentias to be aware of... schoools are like corporations and those talented students are job secrutiy for the teacher. All the other so-so students are mearely paying the bills or filling in those other spots that need bodies like in the school orch. Or I suppose to give them something to polish their egos... some get off on that sort of thing.

Yes, I read those stats, too. That's why it's REAL f#@king lame when an audition is rigged bc it ALWAYS screws some deserving, innocent, wonderful bassist froma job and makes them believe they suck. Very unfair. Some loser gets fat anf arrogant sitting in a chair that he didn't deserve whilst one of his talented friends is scraping the crumbs from Kinkos copiers or dumpster diving to live. Funny thing too is that the unfairly won jobber will most likely be disliked sooner or later by the colleagues bc no section unanimously wants to rig anything. There is always at least one who is totally against it and usually many more! Think too, if the rigger gets retired/fired than the riggee is left all alone to fend for themselves, which of course, they are unable to do othrwise they would have done so at the audition.

ALl you entrerers, behold the truth of your chosen career. These people like G-force and ILIA are speaking a serious truth!!!

-----------------------------------------------------------
My friends, you have struck upon such a poignant subject!!! One that no teachers want their incomong studentias to be aware of... schoools are like corporations and those talented students are job secrutiy for the teacher. All the other so-so students are mearely paying the bills or filling in those other spots that need bodies like in the school orch. Or I suppose to give them something to polish their egos... some get off on that sort of thing.

Yes, I read those stats, too. That's why it's REAL f#@king lame when an audition is rigged bc it ALWAYS screws some deserving, innocent, wonderful bassist froma job and makes them believe they suck. Very unfair. Some loser gets fat anf arrogant sitting in a chair that he didn't deserve whilst one of his talented friends is scraping the crumbs from Kinkos copiers or dumpster diving to live. Funny thing too is that the unfairly won jobber will most likely be disliked sooner or later by the colleagues bc no section unanimously wants to rig anything. There is always at least one who is totally against it and usually many more! Think too, if the rigger gets retired/fired than the riggee is left all alone to fend for themselves, which of course, they are unable to do othrwise they would have done so at the audition.

ALl you entrerers, behold the truth of your chosen career. These people like G-force and ILIA are speaking a serious truth!!!


The Truth!....said the anonymous screen handle.

There's one that we needn't worry about.

OK a discussion that actually learns me somthing..without throwing crap around.

First of all I didn't realize the stats were so low as 5% AND 25% FOR ALL COLLEGE GRADS. iT IS FREAKY MADNESS YOU ASK ME.
Sorry I didn't see the caps lock.
OK . When I auditioned here in Oslo there were 18 who shoed up for two spots. So I am extremely grateful I have a gig. But of course in light of seeing how the symphony orchestra is a sinking ship in many ways the thought goes through my mind. " What can I do if...?" " what did I learn from Mr x at the musicyard school if this doesn't work out? "
I have heard that in millitary , musicians are respected for their ability to work in code .

I have a good friend who is trying to freelance in LA. Great chops , awesome person, a gift to any section. He can not afford health insurance. He gigs from place to place in the area trying to get into the film industry only to find that it is not so easy.
This is a scenerio we never discussed while playing quarters and Bon Jovi at school.
Maybe today young students are different.
Anyway keep this up it is an interesting thread.

Oh an Ray Parker, I know many many musicians who I dare say don't come close to loving their jobs as much as some engineers or nurses.

I will quote Schubert very badly here " Those ( speaking of musicians in a prominent viennese orchestra at the time) are not musicians but only men who have a particular nack for blowing through a horn.....

I'm at Idyllwild Arts Academy, so I'm essentially already in a conservatory setting, in a sense. I've got a steady chamber group, orchestra rehearsals a couple times a week, Theory classes a couple of times a week, jazz classes daily, I usually get in about 5-8 hours of playing time a day. I honestly don't care what happens to me after college. I wan't to be involved in music because for as long as I can remember, music has been my life, music has been my soul. It's an incredible esperiance when your playing in an exceptional orchestra, or when your jazz combo is really getting hot.

I would love to get a job, but more importantly I want to learn. I would love to play in a premire orchestra, but more importantly I want to play.

That's what I expect out of music school.

Peter,

Please say "Hi" to Marshall from Allan Santos. He was my first teacher.

Allan

Oh an Ray Parker, I know many many musicians who I dare say don't come close to loving their jobs as much as some engineers or nurses.That has nothing to do with my comment, though.

The only thing that you're guaranteed in life is that you'll get up tomorrow -- and you eventually get screwed on that deal, too. Don't expect a cush-slot in life just because you went to some school and bought a piece of paper. It doesn't work that way.

I'm at Idyllwild Arts Academy, so I'm essentially already in a conservatory setting, in a sense. I've got a steady chamber group, orchestra rehearsals a couple times a week, Theory classes a couple of times a week, jazz classes daily, I usually get in about 5-8 hours of playing time a day. I honestly don't care what happens to me after college. I wan't to be involved in music because for as long as I can remember, music has been my life, music has been my soul. It's an incredible esperiance when your playing in an exceptional orchestra, or when your jazz combo is really getting hot.

I would love to get a job, but more importantly I want to learn. I would love to play in a premire orchestra, but more importantly I want to play.

That's what I expect out of music school.


* Applause *

That's the reason I went to music school, and IMO it's the best reason of all. I had no idea what I was gonna do for a living, and in truth, I didn't care. What I wanted was two things: some basic tools to help me get deeper inside a subject that I loved more than any other, and a chance to learn how to use those tools with others following the same path. At this point, I'm making my living working in music, but if that changes and I have to do something else, life will go on.

I can't help but wonder how much poorer my life would be if I had put feeding my belly ahead of feeding my soul on my priorities list. Sometimes I feel like I spend way more time trying to pay the bills than doing "fulfilling" things with my time, but that's just life, too... and I always know that when my belly is full - even temporarily - I can go feed my soul a little bit at that point. How many people never get that chance? How many people don't have outlets like that at all? I think we're damn lucky. Sure the life is hard - but to me, chasing a dream in your spare time beats the hell out of not having one in the first place. Again, and as always, YMMV.

I can't help but wonder how much poorer my life would be if I had put feeding my belly ahead of feeding my soul on my priorities list. . . How many people don't have outlets like that at all? . . . Sure the life is hard - but to me, chasing a dream in your spare time beats the hell out of not having one in the first place.
* Applause * like the man said.

I dropped out of music school because I had an unpleasant vision of myself playing in a wedding band and living in a closet in a big city.

Several years later I returned to college, supporting myself by playing weddings.

Several years later I went to law school, living for several years in America's 5th-largest city.

Tell me again why I dropped out of music school?

You have to want to play bad enough that you find a way to feed yourself with it. This includes everything, up to and including a day job. You also have to have realistic expections for your lifestyle. Music isn't a job, but a way of life. If you want a job you need to check out engineering or nursing or something.

Isn't caring about people, a way of life for some in which nursing is a great way to earn a living while following your call . Or maybe desigining stable grounds on which to build great things . engineering or figured bass ?
Sounds a lot like what we do...

Maybe I missed your point.
Could you explain how I misunderstood your comment?

Thanks

day job
Please, Ray....watch your language. You're scarin' me.

G-Force:

Engineering and nursing, my examples, are practical vocations. Everyone needs these people. Chances are far greater, and I would say almost certain with perserverence, that you will find steady work in these fields. Nobody needs a musician, figuring per capita.

Any sort of living that you make in the playing of music in the music business is an extreme study in bootstrapping. You'll almost certainly have to create a need for your service and then sell it. The only alternative is to move to a large center of population, like NYC, but then you have the problem of a glut of supply and you then have to really shine to create a need for your playing -- and not just shine playing, but in hustling, salesmanship, showmanship, etc.

Further, of all of the best players that you hear or know about, an EXTREMELY small segment make a living by playing alone. Most teach, either privately or through a school.

Tell me again why I dropped out of music school?

I don't know but I'm trying to figure out a way to go back. :hmm:

12% ???!!??

It's more like 5%...


As dismal as that may sound, consider this.....
Only 25% of ALL college graduates actually work in the field that they trained in...

Yes, but did you also know that 47% of all statistics are simply made up?

Thanks ray for clearing me up on that. I really misunderstood you. Good points though . But I still disagree with you. There is a need for musicians otherwise my cellphone would sound like everybody elses...

Thanks ray for clearing me up on that. I really misunderstood you. Good points though . But I still disagree with you. There is a need for musicians otherwise my cellphone would sound like everybody elses...

I guess it depends on one's definition of "musician".

This thread is a good reality check for the most part however, one does what one is meant to do in life. If one is meant to be a musician than one shall be. Often it isn't even about the destination but abut the journey.

I have recently left a 14 year career in the computer industry. I have walked away from a good paying (though stressful) gig to start learning double bass and go to school for Jazz Studies/performance. I have *NO* idea where I'll be in 3 months let alone in several years but I do know this is something I *have* to do. Who knows where it will lead me? And, yet, this is half the fun!

I think the most important things anyone can do is follow their heart and keep an open mind. One's path will become clear if both things are followed.

If you actually have the ability, then getting a job is mostly about perseverance. Wasn't the average number of auditions one has to take before winning a job hovering around 48? I think that's a composite for all instruments, but you get the idea.

You have to want to play bad enough that you find a way to feed yourself with it. This includes everything, up to and including a day job. You also have to have realistic expections for your lifestyle. Music isn't a job, but a way of life. If you want a job you need to check out engineering or nursing or something.

Funny you say this. That was exactly the thought process I went through, but instead of justifying a life in music, it convinced me to go to engineering school.

I'm currently a student of engineering in university, a choice I made over going to school for music. Like you say, music isn't a job, but a way of life. I feel that I live my life through music, but as a young person thinking about how I might support a family in 20 years, I don't need a way of life, I need a job.

I chose engineering school over music school because I'm pretty good at the skills required for both, but also want to pay the bills. Now, each day I must work to keep music in my life, because it is something I love. It's a strange struggle, but one that is worth making because of my love for music.

Does anyone think I made the right choice? Anyone in the same situation?

Please, Ray....watch your language. You're scarin' me.

The truth hurts bro. My dream is to become a studio musician one day, but that doesn't mean I'll be able to live off of just that, let alone even acheive the dream. Always have to start somewhere.

I chose engineering school over music school because I'm pretty good at the skills required for both, but also want to pay the bills. Now, each day I must work to keep music in my life, because it is something I love. It's a strange struggle, but one that is worth making because of my love for music.

Does anyone think I made the right choice? Anyone in the same situation?

I just decided not to major in music in college a few months ago. It was a hard decision, but I think that it'll work out fine. Plus, I didn't have to practice for college auditions.

I have recently left a 14 year career in the computer industry. I have walked away from a good paying (though stressful) gig to start learning double bass and go to school for Jazz Studies/performance. I have *NO* idea where I'll be in 3 months let alone in several years but I do know this is something I *have* to do. Who knows where it will lead me? And, yet, this is half the fun!

I have a secure job in academia, I have my own home (paying off the mortgage), a car and a couple of other perks that come with a decent and regular salary. I've also been given the opportunity to complete a doctorate in biochemistry, but all I can think about is going back and doing a bachelors degree in music performance.


I chose engineering school over music school because I'm pretty good at the skills required for both, but also want to pay the bills. Now, each day I must work to keep music in my life, because it is something I love. It's a strange struggle, but one that is worth making because of my love for music.

Does anyone think I made the right choice? Anyone in the same situation?

I agree with you and I think you made the right choice simply for the fact that you are doing what you felt was the best thing for you. It doesn't sound like you have any major regrets. Who knows if you had pursued music over engineering. The pathway of a musician is very unpredictable, especially when compared to the pathway of a prospective engineer. I made basically the same choice as you did, I went to university and graduated in the biomedical sciences and have a good secure job now.

I don't have any specific regrets over my decision, but dammit I just want to get back into music. I am working towards the opportunity to quit my job though.

sorry to resurrect this old thread,

but i cant see why you cant keep a day job and play music ? well yeah, its hard to get an audition, but what do you expect ? wont it be a better feeling when you finally get the spot ? Lets say your an engineer or your a nurse or something of the like, I guess as an engineer in a firm or something, you might be able to take a break or a day off to go audition ? and if you get the spot, and your sure its a "safe" job, as in your there to stay, cause your comfortable with the section/conductor, the pieces you play etc, you might feel ready to quit your day job, you can also get a reputation in the orchestral/jazz scene when you join a symphony/jazz band. then you might get offers from different orchestras, or it might give you a boost when you audition for another orchestra/jazz band.

I recently dropped out of engineering school at a top state university with a full ride to go to community college and essentially learn from the ground up everything there is to know about upright bass. One day... something clicked, and I just had to follow whatever it was inside me that was telling me to play. I played classical and flamenco guitar for about 9 years, never really taking it seriously because my teachers in middle and high school told me i would ruin my life in a career in music. But now that I have just earned my first weekly gig here at home with a trio, I feel like I couldn't have had it any other way. If I didn't pick up the bass and follow my dream, I felt that I would have looked back upon being a wimp for the rest of my life.
Sorry that I'm sortof rambling, but if you are called, you have to answer. Nothing is worse than regret.

Wow. 48 auditions before you guys get a job?
Let me tell you more about myself. I graduated from the Colorado School of Mines back in the late 70's, going into the business and taking lessons on the side with Slew Paulson.
Bass for me is a hobby and I like to take auditions every now and then for fun-I also play a little competitive golf and tennis. What I'm getting at is that I did this all as a Black man in a White man's world.
Most of you are very young, quite bright I would imagine and are probably not going to make it-I consider that a shame as well as a sham-from bloated University classes run by careerist professors to rigged auditions.
I know what it costs to travel with a bass and stay overnight in a hotel-in addition to your University training (God help you guys or your parents if you are not on scholarship) you will spend 48 x $2,000 on auditions. That doesn't make a bit of sense since most of you won't make $50,000 IF YOU DO make it.
I'd say the average IQ here is around 120-130. You guys could be doctors, run hedge funds or working on new sources of energy-like what I'm doing now on the Colorado Oil Sands project. By the way it's not shale- it's marlstone and we are creating some BEAUTIFUL crude oil. In China, pebble-bed technology is going to put us to shame and soon.
Paul, I wish you luck and hope it won't take you 48 auditions. Maybe we'll all hear you play someday!

I think this may be a little misleading. Its not as though you have to take dozens of auditions before any work comes your way. This only applies to full-time salaried orchestra positions. There are many other opportunities for orchestral musicians to make a living freelancing.

I don't even know what college I'm going to. I'm still in the process of sending in applications and preparing for my auditions in the spring (Bottesini, scales, and a few etudes). I hope I can continue a life in music. My conductor said that I should persue music education so I can eat. It was funny but true. I'll get what I can when I can.

I'm taking the ACT this december. I'd take the SAT but I can't find away to sign up for it. I don't have a credit card to do it online and local schools don't carry the packets to sign up by mail. Here in the south all the schools only carry ACT stuff since thats what southern schools want. O, well we'll see.

mcnaire, what schools are you applying to?

mcnaire, what schools are you applying to?
Lee, Georgia, Tennessee, Memphis, Vanderbelt, Curtis, Juilliard, and thats all for now. I'll also try and find some other suiters.

I if you guy's have any idea on other schools or audition rep. just let me know. So far all I've got to audition with is Bottesini Concerto No. 2 and Bottesini Reverie.

I'm really thinking of going to Lee for a year to get my footing and audition for Curtis and Juilliard.

I don't know about all the other schools but for Curtis you will also need a movement of solo Bach, and for Juilliard you need two contrasting movements of a Baroque Sonata (NO CONCERTO), and a specific etude which they tell you.

Just go to the website of the schools and check the audition rep.

I don't know about all the other schools but for Curtis you will also need a movement of solo Bach, and for Juilliard you need two contrasting movements of a Baroque Sonata (NO CONCERTO), and a specific etude which they tell you.

Just go to the website of the schools and check the audition rep.
I've checked. Curtis sais Bach or a solo of choice which will probably be Reverie or Tarentella. And I'll start working on the Etudes in December.

I'm still trying to come up with some other things to play for the auditions. Do you have any suggestioins?

Orchestral rep: Beethoven 5, 9, mozart 35or 39, Brahms 1 or 2, for starters.
Seriously, where is your teacher to tell you these things?? You can't just show up to a college audition (curtis and juilliard, of all places!) and expect to only play a solo or two.

Orchestral rep: Beethoven 5, 9, mozart 35or 39, Brahms 1 or 2, for starters.
Seriously, where is your teacher to tell you these things?? You can't just show up to a college audition (curtis and juilliard, of all places!) and expect to only play a solo or two.
Right now were working on Bottesini for a performance in December. We are talking about college and he really wants me to go to georgia. I will probably stay around in Chattanooga for Lee University (in clevelend TN) for a year before making the big auditions.

Right now were working on Bottesini for a performance in December. We are talking about college and he really wants me to go to georgia. I will probably stay around in Chattanooga for Lee University (in clevelend TN) for a year before making the big auditions.

If you are majoring in Music Education, you are much better off going to a state school such as Georgia, Tennessee, or South Carolina (best music ed in the country).

Unless your grades are exceptional- you probably won't get in to UGA. I would seriously consider USC. They have a new bass professor and the string project which is the model for all string ed. in the country.

BTW- I am an alum of both of those schools. Milton is a great player and teacher at UGA. The new bass professor at USC is Craig Butterfield from UNT, and he is really good as well.

FWIW
BG

This is a little off your topic and I don't mean to butt in, but if it is the SAT that you want or need to take, rather than the ACT, your school guidance counselor ought to help you get the registration packet to do that. If he or she can't or won't, you can call the College Board, which administers the SAT, at (866) 756-7346, and ask them what to do. That's a customer service number.

Here's a link to the College Board contact info:

http://www.collegeboard.com/student/testing/sat/contact.html

Good luck!

I've been fortunate enough to have studied with great teachers and players. My best education has come in the 'real world'. No not under the warm fuzzy blanket of a conservatory setting.

I believe that about 95% of people who show up for auditions don't belong there in the first place. So I have to ask myself, like everyone of us who is preparing for whatever audition.
Which group am I in? The 95% or that 5%?

There was a masterclass at Rice University, in Houston, one time. We walked into a room with chairs arranged in a circle and Paul Ellison had everyone sit down. It was quiet as Paul comfortably took control of the room. He said "We're gonna talk about what your going to do to make a living." "Now if you want some kind of security they'd be glad to have you over there at the Computer Sciences school." The class went through and started naming off the different things you could do with the bass to make money. As the class came to a close Paul said that some of us will be very very 'fortunate' to get great jobs. The rest of us will have to utilize our skills and do everything we can and it will reflect in our pocket books.

I have gone back and forth many times since that masterclass. Even gone as far to not play for a year. Music is a personal thing, as this has been pointed out. There is no formula. And I cannot listen to this perfect intonation and perfect rhythm mumbo jumbo. These things are obvious. For me, it has come down to: How do I fit into this world of music, where is MY place?


(It is nice to be able to come to a nice website like this and share my thoughts and feelings, thank you.)

pskelly, Thanks for the link.

I'll be auditioning for Lee University November 10th. I'll be playing Bottesini and scales. (Movement from Concerto and scales w/ site reading required) Right now on break for the schedual I have given myself to prepare in time. Hopefully In a year of being at Lee I'll be ready to audition for UGA, UTK, Curtis, Juilliard ect...

Filrich, I believe that we must make our own place in music. I'll do whatever I can to fit in (with music).

please,

do what you must.

that is all you can do.

my first teacher was a cellist.... he told me:

the grass is always greener

ah sweet simplicity

pskelly, Thanks for the link.

I'll be auditioning for Lee University November 10th. I'll be playing Bottesini and scales. (Movement from Concerto and scales w/ site reading required) Right now on break for the schedual I have given myself to prepare in time. Hopefully In a year of being at Lee I'll be ready to audition for UGA, UTK, Curtis, Juilliard ect...

Filrich, I believe that we must make our own place in music. I'll do whatever I can to fit in (with music).


mcnaire,

If you went to Lee University, who would you be studying with?

mcnaire,

If you went to Lee University, who would you be studying with?
I think it is some guy from the CSO.

My main teacher (out side of Lee) will be the same guy I have now. Chris Hanson of the CSO. I know I should choose based on teachers and what not but I need to stay around town for a year.

I think it is some guy from the CSO.

My main teacher (out side of Lee) will be the same guy I have now. Chris Hanson of the CSO. I know I should choose based on teachers and what not but I need to stay around town for a year.

How long have you studied with Eric? I've met him, he seems like a great guy.

How long have you studied with Eric? I've met him, he seems like a great guy.
I said Chris? For some reason I do that. O well.

I've been studying with Eric since the school year started. There are things about the bass that I never knew.

I mite go up there to UTK but I doubt it this year.