Hello all
Well I have been sitting on the fence for to long now and I cant ignore the free shipping from Upton so I am going to take the plunge.
The two models I feel would fit me well and the Shen SB-80 and the Upton Modio Fino, any input on these basses would be greatly helpfull.

Oh I play Electric bass and gig every week. I play a Azola EUB a few times a month, mostly jazz and worship music. Some pizz some arco.

Thank you

I have a Shen SB100, and don't think you could go wrong with any Shen.

I've never heard a Medio, and with all the rave reviews Upton gets, I bet that would be a solid choice as well.

Tough descision, I think I would go Medio Fino, just to be a bit different.

Youre not apples to apples price wise. The Media Fino is more expensive right? And if youre not going to quibble about a couple of 100 ....speaking of 100, go for the Shen 100.

Another option is the Shen 90, if you can deal with blondes.

Happy Easter

Dad Bass

Youre not apples to apples price wise. The Media Fino is more expensive right?

Yes the Fino is $250.00 more. I guess I was looking at bottom line prices for the brand as the Upton basses start at $1700.00.

Have a great Easter :hyper:

Hello all
Well I have been sitting on the fence for to long now and I cant ignore the free shipping from Upton so I am going to take the plunge.
The two models I feel would fit me well and the Shen SB-80 and the Upton Modio Fino, any input on these basses would be greatly helpfull.

Oh I play Electric bass and gig every week. I play a Azola EUB a few times a month, mostly jazz and worship music. Some pizz some arco.

Thank you

Plain and simple: Take the Medio Fino.

I was just out in Los Angeles and made the rounds - LA Bassworks and Lemur. Lisa has a number of interesting basses and of course so does Lemur and since you're right in the neighborhood in Simi Valley, it sure seems that it might make sense before you take the plunge to go and check out what both shops have. I also saw World of Strings but could never get there when they were open. I was told they have lots of interesting instruments. And anyway, if you buy out in LA, you'll beat the shipping and the risk of shipping which always makes me think twice. Just a thought.

I was just out in Los Angeles and made the rounds - LA Bassworks and Lemur. Lisa has a number of interesting basses and of course so does Lemur and since you're right in the neighborhood in Simi Valley, it sure seems that it might make sense before you take the plunge to go and check out what both shops have. I also saw World of Strings but could never get there when they were open. I was told they have lots of interesting instruments. And anyway, if you buy out in LA, you'll beat the shipping and the risk of shipping which always makes me think twice. Just a thought.


Not bad advice but just a note. Upton is offering free shipping (so that's beat already) and they always take responsibility for delivering an undamaged instrument.

And anyway, if you buy out in LA, you'll beat the shipping and the risk of shipping which always makes me think twice. Just a thought.

I would agree but the tax rate here is 8.25% on sales and Upton has free shipping right now. That is a hard act to follow.

I've played both a Shen SB80 and the Media Fino, and I greatly favored the Media Fino. I bought a Hawkes, but the Media Fino is terrific. The Shen was good too, but I thought the MF had a deeper tone.

i would go with upton because it will be setup superb.....that is unless you're buying the shen bass from someone like nick lloyd, upton, or arnold schnitzer.
if you're looking locally at the shen the setup might not be quite as good.

i would go with upton because it will be setup superb.....

+1 on that...the attention to detail is great. I would expect that kind of work on a $17K bass, not a $1700! I've only had mine for 6 mos...and still going steady...:)

gomez

I was just at Upton this past week and checked out a plywood and hybrid Medio Fino.

Both of them completely blew me away. The sound, the ease of playability, fit and finish.

I wish I had made the visit to Upton last year this time. I would definately be playing a Medio Fino instead of the Strunal I ended buying.

although shen's are considered a good inexpensive bass, i dont think theres a question, is there? the MFs are made in Europe with European wood. the Shens are Chinese--they may be among the best Chinese basses, but the medio finos are in a different league, IMHO.

but if you want more info, call jack at gary's shop--hes one of the finest upright bassists in the land (im not exagerating!) , and as a meticulous luthier he can give you expert advice on which bass is constructed better and what the tonal characteristics are of both basses. he'd likely be able to suggest strings, too.

jack wont steer you towards a bass that they might have a better margin on--upton survives on return customers and its in his best interest to sell you something that will bring you back for accessories, upgrades, and service.

i trust them 100%.

kip

is the medio fino a hybrid bass?
in a laminated bass i doubt it would matter much if the wood is "european" or "chinese".

i'm sure the shen or medio fino will both be nice basses if the setup work is excellent.
if the medio fino is hybrid then i would for sure choose that over anything laminated except maybe one of arnolds basses.

I believe you can get the medio fino model in either fully laminated or as a hybrid.

jmpiwonka said:

>in a laminated bass i doubt it would matter much if
>the wood is "european" or "chinese".

you apparently dont have much experience with laminated basses! i do, as a player, a collector, and as a luthier. chinese wood often delaminates (pulls apart) because the chinese typically use greener wood. European basses are better constructed as a rule. shens are good, but not great. they still have some green wood. and if you look inside the $500 basses on ebay (chinese), the wood is just a mess. typical splintered, twisted, knotty, and rougher wood with tons of glue. theres a huge difference between laminate basses in tone as well.

and just because something is carved doesnt make it more suited for the job. MOST great bluegrass players prefer ply basses for the distinctive tone. barry bales with alison krauss has record the bulk of his work with ply basses. he has grammys and platinum CDs. in a world where the average professional banjo costs between $12k and 100k, and many folks play mandolins worth over $150k, bassists still prefer the less expensive ply basses. theres nothing that sounds as percussive and round as an american standard and you can still find them for less than a $2500. sure, there are a couple exceptions, but really tone-concious bluegrass, rockabilly, and traditional country players prefer plywood.

ive seen the laminate medio fino and its a great bass. better than some of those roumanian carved basses ive seen from the 90s.

kip

the general opinion is that shen uses nice wood. what is the difference in chinese and european wood given both are well seasoned?
you should not group all chinese woods in the same category just because they are chinese. i don't judge all european basses the same since i've played some romanian basses that i wasn't really impressed with.

if anyone is curious, a simple search of the bass section of the double bass forum will show that shen basses are quite respected basses.

i would never lump Shen in with the "Chinese" basses. Shen makes a very good product. If they didn't, the best shops in the country wouldn't carry them. I think the MF is better, but I would never turn down a Shen.

:eyebrow: Those prices for bluegrass instruments...banjo and mandolin are waaaaaay out of whack. Sorry but I don't know where you got your info. A vintage acoustic instrument, guitar, mando, etc. even the very best pre-war (WWII) can be had at the outside for $20-30K. Old Martin guitars usually bringing the highest dollar. The VERY best of the new models can be had for less than $10K. My .02

gomez

Here's my 2 cents and its not about the educated consumer, player etc. because in that case they know better but from my own perspective any instrument made in China, Shen or otherwise gets the same bad rap. There are many who would never buy a Chinese made bass and many of those in that category are Asians. I have a Chinese luthier ex symphonic player and he turns his nose up on all of them. Yes, I agree its irrational and unfair but there it is. People will hear its made in China and things often end right there. I'm quite sure it will all change slowly but surely however for now, many people immediately turn off upon hearing the country of origin is China and one really should consider that when looking for an instrument to buy since at some point they may be facing that sentiment when they decide to trade up or just sell their instrument.

Reminds me of when Toyotas were first coming into the U.S. The rap on Japanese merchandise was that it was shoddy and cheap. Look where they are now.

Ken I'm sure you're right. But you also know that lots of this stuff is irrational. When I was in the recording studio biz my engineers were always fooling with these Chinese made mics. First year, they were a joke with joke like packaging to boot. Second year same thing with minor adjustment. Did I also mention they were about as cheap as it gets and then some. Third year out, things didn't look any better and their packaging got worse - but their price remained at a steady unrealistic low number. When the fourth year came around, they suddenly were asking three times the original price and the mic was better then a very expensive AKG - for a fraction of the price. They figured it out. Ultimately the Chinese were able to ask less and deliver more and I believe this is their style. I can see it in every product they make. My dad had represented the entire Chinese music industry at their earliest stages so I've seen the worst of the worst of winds, brass, strings etc. but of course this goes back almost to the "cultural revolution" days before the Chinese were allowed to put names on their items. Everything back then was just called "Skylark" or something to that effect. Anyway some of the samples I've seen picking through our warehouse that my dad must have just put aside since they were useless for the US market are not to be believed - scary bad. Their violin cases come to mind and yet now some of the cases are quite good and better then good or how about their bass bows?
Lately, there are some beauties ...
As good as th new Chinese violin cases are, its the Chinese violinists that specifically ask for German cases. So go figure. I know its irrational.

Also, however many of the good Chinese shops I'd bet there are 10 awful shops and sadly those will be the one's who pump lots of crap into the market place and fuel the resistance.

Now about that Eastern European food ...

Then I just returned minutes ago from your old neighborhood. I walked up to Trader Joe's off 3rd and 14th and then Whole Foods on 14th off University and then back home to Bleecker/Mercer via University so I just walked by all the old landmarks ... funny

EEEK I think my threadhas been hijacked :eek: NP, lots of good info here. Plz feel free to hijack away. :p

yeah that happens sometimes.

i think the point is made, don't regard shens as the usual china crap basses.

maybe you should give upton a call and see what they think of the shens compared to the medio fino laminate.

i just looked at the upton site.
the hawkes bass has an oil varnish ;)

assuming that the medio fino has an oil varnish i would choose that over the shen, the nice varnish is worth the extra $250 you said the MF costs over the Shen....i don't think the Shen's have oil varnish until you get into the fully carved or maybe the hybrids.

"yeah that happens sometimes.
i think the point is made, don't regard shens as the usual china crap basses."


The issue as I see it isn't what the original buyer thinks, its what the average buyer thinks especially when you want to resell the instrument.
There's just no doubt whatsoever that the average buyer if given a choice will not choose the Asian instrument.

My point is somewhat illustrated by the quote above "usual china crap basses" - that will be what most buyers will be thinking when they look at any Chinese made bass and only time and education will change that. In the meantime, forget about the bass appreciating very much because of that aspect.

My 2cents ....

yeah greene, those are all valid points.
it reminds me a little of when i called a luthier to get some setup work done. he had never heard of a shen and told him a little about it, high quality chinese stuff....then he started talking about it will probably need a fingerboard and this and that....once he saw it he was very impressed with it....he liked the X brace on the back too.

i just hope when i do sell my bass that the sound will speak for the quality of the instrument because it does sound very nice.

i just looked at the upton site.
the hawkes bass has an oil varnish ;)

assuming that the medio fino has an oil varnish i would choose that over the shen, the nice varnish is worth the extra $250 you said the MF costs over the Shen..

The Medio Fino DB's have a Laquer Varnish, but I would still take them over a Shen any day.

save some more bucks and get a hawkes.

Hawkes was a London company that made Panormo copies in 3 countries about 100 years after his death. Now another 100 years later we have a copy of a copy. When will the names stop?

Isn't it a Panormo model if that's what the Hawkes was originally?

Violin makers still copy Strad today and call it a Strad model. They don't call it by the guys who copied Strad, they go straight to the source. I would rather have my Bass say 'Panormo' model than Hawkes.

http://uptonbass.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/21/products_id/166

After just looking at the Upton website a few moments ago....the Medio Fino model has mysteriously disappeared from the list. Maybe this thread opened a wormhole. :eek:

gomez

I guess it is currently offered only as a hybrid model.


http://uptonbass.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/21/products_id/183

Hawkes was a London company that made Panormo copies in 3 countries about 100 years after his death. Now another 100 years later we have a copy of a copy. When will the names stop?

Isn't it a Panormo model if that's what the Hawkes was originally?

Violin makers still copy Strad today and call it a Strad model. They don't call it by the guys who copied Strad, they go straight to the source. I would rather have my Bass say 'Panormo' model than Hawkes.
Sounds good to me Ken. I'm gonna call mine a Panormo from now on. I like the sound of it better. I guess it should really be an Upton Panormo...copy of a copy. Either way I think it's a great bass.

gomez

I would rather have my Bass say 'Panormo' model than Hawkes.
We decided to tip the hat to the lessor known. 2 minutes on Google and anyone can see the Hawkes Panormo relationship. Everyone is selling "Panormo's"...we just wanted to be a little different. In the end...what does the name really mean on a factory made bass anyway...other than a tribute.

Why did Arnold tip the hat to a defunct laminated bass company rather than taking the Prescott school name? Same thing...right Ken?

End of the day...it's all just fun. We love what we do.

Oh...and the Medio Fino (another name some did not get) is no longer. The last Laminated and Hybrid's were sold this week. The new Hybrid Hawkes model pictures will soon replace the Medio Fino's...and the description will be updated. With the progression of our workshop into our own finishing and soon to be making...there just was no room for the Medio Fino model. more good stuff coming though...keep an eye out.

Eric, I think you should name a future model the Ken Smith. Then maybe he wouldn't complain ;)

BTW, I agree with Eric. The name Panormo is used by so many companies that it's pretty much lost its meaning. Isn't there a line of CCB's called Panormo?

>Kip, are you telling us that you know of people that have >paid 100-150K for a Banjo or Mandolin?

absolutely. a orewar flathead Gibson Grenada banjo with a 1 piece flange in excellent condition might fetch $150k. theres one at Elderly for $165k, but its negotiable.

>I don't know if they are as good as your Kay for what you >do but when playing Mozart Plywood is just not on the menu!

agreed. 1st off, i dont play a Kay. i have a 1937 American Standard and a 1920s John Juzek Sr. secondly, Barney Kessell would never use a Telecaster or Strat while Don Rich or James Burton would never use a Super 400. My brother paid $15k for his early 50s tele and it was refinished. i just sold a 1951 Martin D-18 for $8500.

>I guess we are living in two different worlds. I have never >heard of a fine Banjo costing more than a fine Bass.

i know of a Lloyd Loar mandolin thet just went for $225k and im told the Japenese will pay more for one.

>Shen also stands behind their product which is not the case >with most other Chinese brands
thats true. i dont believe i meant to say Shens were shoddy basses. i was referring to cheaper Chinese basses when i made my generalization.

as for my credentials, i run a bluegrass bass list (BGBASS-L), have played with the top players in bluegrass (and i mean THE top--jd crowe, mike auldridge, tony rice, bobby hicks, jimmy martin, the seldom scene, marty stuart, nitty gritty dirt band, etc.). i collect instruments and know their prices and value in terms of dollars, and i absolutely guarantee that i have seen Gibson mandolins go for $225k, Gibson banjos sell for $65k and more, 1939 Martin D45s go for $85k, and American Standards sell for $4.8k.

if you doubt my credentials, ask any true top bluegrass player if hes heard of me.

kip

gomez said:

>Those prices for bluegrass instruments...banjo and mandolin >are waaaaaay out of whack. Sorry but I don't know where >you got your info. A vintage acoustic instrument, guitar, >mando, etc. even the very best pre-war (WWII) can be had >at the outside for $20-30K.

well, you are wrong. i deal in instruments and YOUR prices are at least 5 years old or more. sure, vintage instruments can be had for less, but im talking about the stuff that makes it on albums. bluegrass players have been known to spend $5000 for a vintage mic, btw.

>Old Martin guitars usually bringing the highest dollar.

not true. a reissue Gibson Mando might cost $18k: http://www.elderly.com/new_instruments/items/F5M.htm

heres a Gibson banjo for $60k. and its not one of the highly sought after banjos: http://www.elderly.com/vintage/items/80U-1904.htm

heres a banjo for $165k: http://www.elderly.com/vintage/items/70U-2599.htm

i know my acoustic instruments. and im known for KNOWING which acoustic instruments and vintage mics are preferred by bluegrass performers, collectors, and hoarders (yes, i know people with walk in air conditioned safes). on this forum, id also expected more than a condescending reply.

kip

ken said:

>Where did you get that bum steer from, 1920s John Juzek >Sr.?

i just got it for a good price. i havent been able to find anythingh online. it says John Juzek--Prague on the label. and its very old for a juzek. bought it at gage.

kip

The name Panormo is used by so many companies that it's pretty much lost its meaning.
Negative. :) When I tell dealers that we have a bass made on the Grand Panormo pattern, they know exactly what I am talking about. Big, voluptuous Italian girl with sexy curves! The name Stradivari has become rather vanilla for sure, but dealers know the differences when you say Strad or Guarneri or whatever. The traditional names imply specific characteristics.

At the factory production level, the name game isn't as key as at the private maker level, I think most will agree, though Ken I like your view the best. But we have some models with such mixed attribution that there is no clear-cut name. We call them "Samuel Shen", straight up and easy. You will also see plenty of instances where an importer rebrands instruments by well known overseas brands with their own made up names. There are more of these than folks likely realize, and it's not considered an inappropriate practice, especially if there is a value-added factor like different varnish, parts, re-grads, etc. I'd almost say it's the rule more than the exception in sub-10K basses. One thing anyone is welcome to do is call the maker, give me a holler and I'll give you Sam's number. You all have an open invitation to visit the factory in Suzhou, Sam loves visitors as a few TBers have learned, I honestly think his real reason for doing all this is so he can show it to people. Ken, he's also a great cook, being a former restauranteur.:D Maybe that will get you to make the trip! No question about where a Shen was built, and we long ago said bias against Asians be damned, we will call it by its maker's name. And we are from China, that's right, Suzhou, China, an hour away from Shanghai (pronounced shong-high, not shang-high like Rod Stewart sings it lol). I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that Shen bass resale value is not gonna be a problem, unless you rode it down a staircase first, doh!

Hey, we got the ultimate compliment the other day! One of my dealers says hey look at this bass we're repairing, sure enough from across his rather huge shop it looked like we were gonna look at an SB100. But as soon as I got near it, I could see that someone clearly swiped the outline and made their own version, with the color being pretty convincing too! I won't say who, but I will say that it's interesting to see a Chinese bass copied by an American company! So Ken, should they call it a Shen? :hyper: LOL! We figure it's just a matter of time before we start seeing willow gamba flatbacks popping up from various shops since those are going well and factory folks have been snooping around our booths at shows. They better call them Shens, too!

Anyways, recognizing that every country has good and bad instruments, the smart way to buy a bass is to hang out at great resources like TB and narrow your search to good names that way, and then play basses til something blows your hair back.

as for my credentials, i run a bluegrass bass list (BGBASS-L), have played with the top players in bluegrass (and i mean THE top--jd crowe, mike auldridge, tony rice, bobby hicks, jimmy martin, the seldom scene, marty stuart, nitty gritty dirt band, etc.). i collect instruments and know their prices and value in terms of dollars, and i absolutely guarantee that i have seen Gibson mandolins go for $225k, Gibson banjos sell for $65k and more, 1939 Martin D45s go for $85k, and American Standards sell for $4.8k.

if you doubt my credentials, ask any true top bluegrass player if hes heard of me.

kip
Well, I certainly don't wish to step on your credentials...However I might argue Japanese collectors are not players...and you might also admit that a '39 D45 is not your most common bluegrass stage instrument. Tony Rice's Santa Cruz doesn't sell for $50K. I wasn't referring to the cream of the all-time crop of available instruments. I mean, how many violinists play a 7 or 8 $figure Strad?

Collectors are collectors, etc...
Have a nice day....

gomez

Tony Rice sold his personal Santa Cruz guitar a few months ago for $29,000.00. It was a great guitar, but Santa Cruz is currently building the replacement for it.

I also play some bluegrass music using a $6,000.00 bass and am continually amazed at how little value the Bluegrass community at large tends to place on having a nice high quality bass compared to the professional quality level and price of the mandolins, guitars, banjos, and violins used by the best professional players or well-heeled amateur players. Musicians that I play with are universally pleased with the sound of a lively big bass putting out a large, smooth sound compard to the Kays, Cremonas, and Palatinos that they usually have to deal with.

I think that the tradition of using Kays in bluegrass came from having to travel on a shoestring budget. These basses often had to ride on top of the car roof, sometimes covered with a canvas tarp, sometimes not. Blasted by winter snow and summer sun, it's amazing that a lot of these old warhorses are still around at all. The idea that people are spending $3-4500.00 for Kays is astonishing to me when so many great new basses are being made (many of them all-solid construction) in that price range that will walk all over most old Kay basses. The number of fine alternatives to an old beat-up Kay for $4500.00 is almost overwhelming.

Does that help get us back to Shens, New Standards and Medio Finos?

Steve Swan

gomez made a couple points:

>However I might argue Japanese collectors are not >players...and you might also admit that a '39 D45 is not your >most common bluegrass stage instrument.

i wasnt referring to japanese collectors. most people wont sell to them. what i am talking about is the PERFORMERS who are currently the higher paid and more well know players. your original statement was that my figures were WAAAAAy out of whack. i know of several players who routinely bring $50-100k instruments to performances and recording dates. its not as rare as you think. in fact, i know of none of the top banjo players using an instrument worth less than $20k. most of the top players use very very expensive instruments and old expensive vintage mics.

>Tony Rice's Santa Cruz doesn't sell for $50K.
correct. it went foir $25k. tony rices prewar D28 with the gretsch fingerboard has been evaluated at $1M. thats right--he leaves it in a safe.

> mean, how many violinists play a 7 or 8 $figure Strad?

fiddlers prefer less expensive instruments. its a preference thing. usuually, a rehabbed $2000 instrument and a $1000 bow will get the tone these guys like.

which brings me to this statement from steve swann (who is very knowledgeable, in my experience):

>continually amazed at how little value the Bluegrass >community at large tends to place on having a nice high >quality bass compared to the professional quality level and >price of the mandolins, guitars, banjos, and violins used by >the best professional players or well-heeled amateur >players.

2 reasons, steve. a very nice quality bass has a voice that many guitarists feel crowd the midrange frequencies. its not always the case, but a great carved bass is going to have a lot of that range in its voice.

the other reason, is tradition. plywood basses generally play down midrange clarity in favor of a punchy, percussive tone. bluegrassers dont play with a kick drum and the bass has to set the front of the 1 and 3 beat pretty distinctly--ply basses do that best--its simply a preferred tool in most cases. sure there are may be 2 well known bassists using carved basses, butthe vast majority of recording and high on the totem pole players PREFER plywood. the last 5 IBMA bassists of the year play plywood. barry bales, missy raines, mike bub, dennis crouch, kent blanton, jason moore, roy husky jr, yadda yadda all tended to like that sound. so do i--for bluegrass. when i play or record jazz or folk, i use my czech juzek. when i play bluegrass, i use an american standard. similarly, a great rock guitaist will likely use a strat with a locking tremelo while andres segovia or mark whitfield will prefer a carved top super 400. one of my favorite guitarists of all time, james burton (elvis, ricky nelson, roy orbison) bought a paisley telecaster for $135 in the 60s and he still plays it unmodified. he wouldnt sound at all the same on a L5. my point is, we bluegrass bassists are lucky in that the plywood bass is the preferred tone.

>Musicians that I play with are universally pleased with the >sound of a lively big bass putting out a large, smooth sound >compard to the Kays, Cremonas, and Palatinos that they >usually have to deal with.

but if you switched basses on them theyd probably never even notice. we travel all over the world with plywood basses and it would be just as easy to take a carved bass as it is for a guitarist to take his $20k D28. but we dont--we sometimes spend more on a flight case than we did on the instrument.

>The idea that people are spending $3-4500.00 for Kays is >astonishing to me when so many great new basses are >being made (many of them all-solid construction) in that >price range that will walk all over most old Kay basses.

i hope you understood what i wrote above. what you said is comparable to someone saying "The idea that people are spending $3-4500.00 for Telecasters is astonishing to me when so many great new Super 400 copies are being made in that price range that will walk all over most old Kay basses."

its a preference. we bass players are just lucky that we dont have to mortgage a house to buy a serious recording instrument. $5000 for a prewar American Standard (yes, they DO sound different from Arnolds New Standards) is a lot, but when you figure there are only 100 of those older Standards out there, it makes sense.

and thanks for the measured and polite discussion. if this was on 2XBASS-L, id have been shouted down long ago. thats why im here--i learn stuff without being ridiculed for my provincial tastes in music.

kip

>Tony Rice's Santa Cruz doesn't sell for $50K.
correct. it went foir $25k. tony rices prewar D28 with the gretsch fingerboard has been evaluated at $1M. thats right--he leaves it in a safe.
Kip, one point and one question, and then I'm off this roller-coaster...You mentioned Clarence White's $1M Martin that Tony owns...that definitely qualifies as an extreme, one-off piece. We could go on about that stuff all day, but thankfully I won't. :hiding:

#2 I always thought 'grassers, and I am a huge fan of bluegrass by the way, used plywood basses because of the conditions they find themselves playing in. And since arco is seldom in the mix, orchestral level instruments are not required.

adios, gomez

Boy, who would have thought the name of a bass would touch off this big firestorm? After this thread, I'm glad I bought my Upton Hawkes when it was still called the Jazz/Bluegrass ;)

Anyway, I still think it's much ado about nothing. Then again, I don't have near the knowledge of DB history as you guys. Quite honestly, though, I don't think either Panormo or Hawkes care anymore, much like Leo Fender doesn't care anymore about all the companies making electric basses based on the Jazz Bass.

Back to the subject at hand...

Is there any reason to not consider something a bit more vintage but still within you price range?

A few weeks ago I was leaning toward a new Shen SB80 or 100, a repaired SB80 from a local luthier (and still for sale as far as I know, and a good deal too... PM me if you want details), perhaps an Eastman from a local shop, a Strunal (strunel?) etc...

By chance I was taking a road trip and would be spending some time in NYC for a few days and thought it would be in my best interest to swing by David Gage's shop and am I ever glad I did... I found this beautiful 1950 Kay that just spoke to me in a way no other bass had. I would have never thought I would have liked a Kay as I really didn't care much for the Engle's I'd played (not that they are bad, they just didn't talk to me). The morale of this story is if you can get to a shop and get your hands on an instrument do it... You might be rather suprised.

If I *had* to go mail order I'd go with Upton but, really, get you hands on some instruments and listen to your hands/ears/gut.

gomez said:

>I always thought 'grassers...used plywood basses because of the conditions they find themselves playing in.<

1st, professional, high end bluegrass bassists are are playing in the same conditions as any other musicians--on stages both indoors and outdoors, in concerts, and studfios.

2nd, professional high end bluegrass bassists are playing in the same conditions as those with Lloyd Loar mandos, prewar flathead banjos, and 51 D28s.

most of those same high end bassists bring the same bass to a bar like the station inn in nashville as they would a session with bruce hornsby. in fact, my american standard was used on several of his recordings.

no, bassist to use inferior instruments because of conditions they work under. same conditions most pros work under. same conditions the other guys in the band work under. in my last band, the banjo player had a banjo that cost $60k and he used it at small venues and at outdoor festivals., the namdo player used a $35k gibson F5 at those gigs. the guitarist used a 1976 bicentennial D28--no idea what it was worth, i used my American Standard. when i used my Juzeck, they said i had 'too much sustain' and 'too much volume'. we use high quality plywood (not necessarily a contradiction in terms) because they have the right tone expected for the genre.

also, be aware that ive seen kays go from $500 nused to now fetching $3000 in rare instances (not worth it-- i still buy them for $1200 all the time) and american standards going for $4800. i just bought one for $800.

mayber in the old days people used kays and standards (and epiphones) because they would take a good rainining on when strapped to the top of the car. but because bluegrass is so conservative (as is bebop), no one has successfully strayed away from that old sound except for maybe 2 or 3 bassists.

billy linneman, house bassist for the opry, used the same american standard for 30 years and it never went outside except for sessions.

kip

kip

I have no experiance with Upton Basses, so I'll offer no comment regarding them. But I know a lot about the Shen's.
In fact I just bought my second bass in less than a year from Shen. This time it's one of the hybrids, an SB-150 model. Last year while in while working in China I got a 3/4 Willow, regular readers here at Talkbass know how much I love it. It's so nice that I did'nt want to fly it back here to China from the States again and since I have a road-ready bass (Czech-Ease) it didn't make sense anyway! But it's looking like China is offering me quite a bit of opportunity workwise. I may be spending quite a bit of time playing here over the next few years. So I bought the new Shen to be my "China bass", most likly this bass will remain here for my use on trips here. This new bass sounds very good to me, not quite as sweet as my Willow but still just fine for the jazz gigs I do here. The guys I share the stage with every night say they prefer it's sound over the sound of my Czeck-Ease, no surprize since it's a standard 3/4 size bass with a carved top. It's a nice bass, and I fully expect to enjoy playing it very much while I'm here, and on future gigs here as well.
As to the subject of "green wood", I've been to Sam's factory, he has stacks and stacks of aged wood, more than I've ever seen before. There is no green wood used in Shen basses! Yes, many other Chinese makers are notorious for their use of green wood, I have seen many of these basses here in China, crap! But the Shen's are in a different league. Fine basses for my money, that's why I now own two of them!

Boy, who would have thought the name of a bass would touch off this big firestorm?
Yes. The next round of basses will be things designed and built by us. You can bet your sweet a$$ they will carry our names. But then again I am sure some will say "the ff holes look kind of like X", or "the scroll is very X in profile but the fluting is Z". Boy, I can't wait for those threads...:hmm:

Yes. The next round of basses will be things designed and built by us. You can bet your sweet a$$ they will carry our names. But then again I am sure some will say "the ff holes look kind of like X", or "the scroll is very X in profile but the fluting is Z". Boy, I can't wait for those threads...:hmm:
I can't wait for those basses..:hyper: Maybe my 'Upton-Hawkes-Panormo' will have a playmate some day.

ps. any chance I could get the next model with a "Rich Corinthian Leather" bag? The Ricardo Montelban edition. ;)

gomez

Rich Corinthian Leather
So those poor Corinthians are gonna get hunted again for their hydes! Surprising, after seeing what happened to the dwindling Nauga herds. :)

Oh...and the Medio Fino (another name some did not get) is no longer. The last Laminated and Hybrid's were sold this week.

OK Eric, I'll bite. What didn't I get about the Medio Fino name? I guess since I have one of the last of the hybrids, I'd better take good care of it. No strapping it to the top of the car or tossing it in the back of the pickup.

BTW - I love this bass, I can only assume that the replacements will be as good if not better.

Ron

i just looked at the upton site.
the hawkes bass has an oil varnish ;)

assuming that the medio fino has an oil varnish i would choose that over the shen, the nice varnish is worth the extra $250 you said the MF costs over the Shen....i don't think the Shen's have oil varnish until you get into the fully carved or maybe the hybrids.

Around Fall of last year when I asked about getting an oil varnish on a laminated Hawkes/Panormo model I was told that it wouldn't make sense on a laminated bass at that price point. (Although other plys have an oil varnish.) Now please understand that I'm digging my bass. Just funny how things change. Wish I would have waited...oh well.

I'd like to see some pics.

i think....don't know for sure...that even on a laminate an oil varnish will allow a better sounding bass than a lacquer varnish....not to mention oil looks better.

i think....don't know for sure...that even on a laminate an oil varnish will allow a better sounding bass than a lacquer varnish....not to mention oil looks better.
Not being an expert on wood finishes...how would I know which finish my Upton/Hawkes/Panormo has? The photos on the website look like mine, but with the angles they're shot at, it's admittedly hard to tell.

gomez

Yes. The next round of basses will be things designed and built by us. You can bet your sweet a$$ they will carry our names. But then again I am sure some will say "the ff holes look kind of like X", or "the scroll is very X in profile but the fluting is Z". Boy, I can't wait for those threads...:hmm:
Man, I can't wait to see them! You guys are going to make me sell my kids into slavery!

Man, I can't wait to see them! You guys are going to make me sell my kids into slavery!
your gonna make me sell myslef into partial slavery/indentured servantry

your gonna make me sell myslef into partial slavery/indentured servantry

yeah, i'm gonna have to find a job too.:smug:

Not being an expert on wood finishes...how would I know which finish my Upton/Hawkes/Panormo has? The photos on the website look like mine, but with the angles they're shot at, it's admittedly hard to tell.

gomez
That's the laquer cuz it looks like mine. Those went up right before I got mine. She is a sweetie, just wanting to see the oil varnish.

i guess either one would be great. As long as you get the bass from Gary Upton, you're good.

incase anyone is still reading this, i went to upton bass last weekend and played the hawkes and hawkes hybrid, and they are amazing, warm, and easy to play. they make me happy. lol. too bad i cant pick one up till the summer... :(

ANYTHING upton sells will be great at its pricepoint and in most cases better than stuff going for twice the amount.

if i had to borrow a bass and the only one available was a student model englehardt from upton, i wouldnt hesitate to use it. gary's guys would make it play great and squeeze every bit of available tone out of it.

tell gary how much money you can spend, what kind of music you play, and let HIM 'counsel' you. he's not a used car type--hes a bassplayer, as are the guys who work there, and btw, theres no anti-plywood snobbery there.

kip

At least you got a Medio Fino.

hows this sound for bad luck..
I bought my bass from Upton in February and recieved it on March 31. I check the website a few days later and they take shipping costs off all basses. Then the bow price gets reduced. Now they are discontinuing the medio fino hybrids that i bought.wow...Shouldve waited longer for the hawkes hybrid

Batman, sorry about that, nothing that we pre-conceived. All just in the happenings of the business. An example of this is how we get calls asking how long the free shipping will last, honestly no one knows, not even me. I just like to improvise

Call me at the shop on Monday if you get a chance 860-536-7555