ive quickly found that tabs are a 4 letter word at talkbass. i understand that point of view. however, one thing that ive learned is that for every BASS music or songbook available for purchase, i see about 10 or 20 guitar books on the store shelves. ive found this to be very frustrating. can i read standard notation? sure i can. but when you just want to learn a song that you like, and a tab is all that can be found, it looks pretty good. i agree that posting "tab ------ 4 me please" is wasting everybodys time. but tabs in general are a big help when theres nothing else available. (just a newbies point of view)

Theres a thread almost the exact same as this still here. Its only a few threads down. Its called "can somebody please tell me why..."

Assuming you want to play out with many other musicians, TAB is useless in terms of communicating the language of music.

If you're going to play a tune you know in Ab and the sax player knows in F, are you going to hand him your Ab tab sheet?

If it is decided to play the tune in F and you only know the tune from your Ab tab sheet, what will you do,...... go wait in the car till it's over?

NO!!! Forget tab and learn the tune from your ear or traditional written form.

Tab is for players who love their diaper and are afraid to go poop like a big people!

I think learning tunes by ear is the easiest way to cope with having to transcribe them when different people know them in different keys, but I find tab can be an aid to learning the song by ear.

How do you think people learned other people's songs before TAB?

LISTEN LISTEN LISTEN

Hold you bass. Play along with the CD. Use your brain and your ear to figure out what's going on. Play it over and over.

If you can't learn a tune this way, give it up. This is not for you.

THANKS FOR THE SUPPORT TJAY. since im having trouble, i think ill just quit.

TJay is always delicate with his words this is not typical of him, he just wanted to sort the mice from the men I guess.


But I have to agree everyone should at least attempt to learn the song by ear at the start, and if you truly can not (I only started at the 10 month mark to really be able to pick the song out by ear) then tab it, but always give it a shot

Originally posted by T Jay
If you can't learn a tune this way, give it up. This is not for you.

If you let people like this get to you, you'll never progress as a musician. Do what you feel is right. Either you will make something of it, or you won't.

As long as you are enjoying it, don't let anyone rain on your parade. They aren't worth it.

If you play by the rules, you'll only be as good as those who do. There are no rules to music. There is theory, but even that can limit your imagination and creativity. (It will provide you with a foundation however) Do what you want, and do it because you love it, not because some stuff-shirt says it's the right way.

:D

I feel much better now.

Originally posted by kasuals

If you play by the rules, you'll only be as good as those who do. There are no rules to music. There is theory, but even that can limit your imagination and creativity. (It will provide you with a foundation however) Do what you want, and do it because you love it, not because some stuff-shirt says it's the right way.

:D

I feel much better now.

I hope this isn't another "learning theory will ruin you as a musician" post. Kinda like learning to read books will kill you as a creative writer.
I'm not a "stuff shirt". I just hate to see guys go down the TAB road before learning to play by ear.
Playing by ear is hearing a line and having the ability to figure it out and play it, not hoping you can recognize it someday in TAB. To me, this is incredibly obvious. Anybody who plays any improvised music has to have this skill.
By the way, how did musicians learn others musician's parts before TAB?

Hey T-Jay it takes some ppl a long time to be able to pick up a tune just by listening and by the way before tab ppl probably used sheet music to play other ppls songs not just listening to them! so lay off tabs are a great way to get into bass/guitar playing and later after playing for a while then ppl can move on to your suggested ways. :mad: :cool: :p

My man Freddy,

though I don't want to publicly call you a fool, as you did to TJay, I do want to let you know that you're seriously misguided in your thinking.

First, we've been through this before, TABs are a crutch, and useless in a group situation (as TJay pointed out). For those of you who claim that TABs can give you an insight to how the player played the part, that holds no water unless you got the original player to TAB it for you.

Then there's the whole rhythmic mystery. TABs give you no insight to the rhythms of the part. Totally useless unless you're quite familiar with the tune.

And you can add the effort. If you spent the time it took you to learn TAB on learning standard notation, you'd be much further along. You'd be able to stand your own in ANY musical situation, you'd have a much better grasp on musical concepts.

As far as the comment that "if you play by the rules, you're only as good as those who do", that's just crazy. Did Frank Zappa play by the rules? Bela Bartok? Steve Vai? Satriani? Stu Hamm? Marcus Miller? That argument holds no water.

TJay is no fool, I can tell you that.

Enjoyed your post, Jon, and I agree, with the exception of:

Originally posted by Pacman
Then there's the whole rhythmic mystery. TABs give you no insight to the rhythms of the part. Totally useless unless you're quite familiar with the tune.

TAB can easily be written so that it includes an "insight to the rhythms of the part". I've e.g. seen a lot of Rush bass tabs written in this fashion:

e e e q e e e
|---------------|
|---------------|
|---------------|
|-0-2-3-0-0-0-0-|

Where w = whole note, h = half, q = 1/4, e = 1/8 etc. If it's dotted, it's written with the capital letter, if it's a tie to the next bar, it's written with a +, such as "e+ (bar line) q" or whatever.

But (at LEAST) 95% of all TAB isn't written like this. And sheet music is STILL easier to read than complicated tab, when you get to know it well. :p

Originally posted by My_man_Freddy
Hey T-Jay it takes some ppl a long time to be able to pick up a tune just by listening and by the way before tab ppl probably used sheet music to play other ppls songs not just listening to them! so lay off tabs are a great way to get into bass/guitar playing and later after playing for a while then ppl can move on to your suggested ways. :mad:


MY_MAN_FIELDY,

A few points:

1) Since the advent of Rock music (and before that, jazz and blues) there has been precious little "sheet music" available that would allow someone to play the popular music they were hearing from recordings or on the radio...and what sheet music existed for this purpose was often ludicrously inaccurate. What existed mostly in sheet music in the 50's, 60's, 70's etc (i.e. before INTERNET TABZZZ) was incredibly lame piano arrangements of pop and rock tunes that were popular on the radio. These were usually notated on a grand staff with basic guitar chord charts above the staff to show the basic chord structure of the song for those who didn't want to read the watered-down arrangement note for note. For the most part, the melodies were basically accurate (if soulless), but the rest of the arrangements were a pitiful compromise at best. In the business, we call these kind of charts "CHUMP CHANGES", because if you try to play a song by following the chords on these charts, you'd sound like a CHUMP.

What's my point? My point is that people who were REALLY PLAYING the stuff they were hearing on their records or on the radio were indeed FIGURING IT OUT BY EAR.

2) As regards rhythm, I second what POKEMON said.

3) Do you really think beginning a post with :mad: TJ=FOOL :mad: is wise? TJ may have been a bit harsh in his response to the original poster, but that certainly doesn't make him a FOOL. Not only that, but by writing things like TJ=FOOL, you are inviting the righteous wrath of the local moderator, FIST A:rolleyes: , who tends to whip out the dreaded ROLLEYES SMACKDOWN pretty darn quick when that kind of talk begins. Do you really want to be on the receiving end of that? I wouldn't.

Regards,

STANDURRL N. OTATION

i can take any **** you/any moderator can to throw at me punk:cool: :D :p :o


And yes it was a bit harsh to call him a fool i retract that bit but my main point still stands tab isnt all bad

Cry-eye! I find this whole TABs vs. SN argument tiresome. How is a guy (or girl) expected to learn to play by ear when they just picked up an instrument yesterday? My kids are in second grade and still don't know how to sound out a word when they don't know it. Should I tell them to give up, cuz it's not for them? My point is that it takes time and practice to learn what notes make what sounds(and sometimes no matter how hard you PRACTICE, you just need more TIME before you get it). It takes time and practice to find where those notes are on your fretboard. An acquaintance of mine once told me that he doesn't know the names of the notes, just where they are on his fretboard (he knows what a G sounds like and where to finger his 'board to get that G, but he doesn't know it's a G).

As far as the "if you don't know how to read anything but TAB, you will be useless in a band situation" comment: Once again, I learned how to play all of the songs my band did in the first three years we were together by using TAB. Guitarist A couldn't read music or TAB, but could play fairly well by ear. Guitarist B couldn't read music or play by ear, but he could read TAB. Then there was me -- I just knew TAB. How did we manage? As a band, we all helped each other (gasp)! It is now a few years later and I still use TAB, but I can now play by ear also. I am also trying to learn standard notation. Out of the four guys in my band (guitarist B is the only guy left from the original band), I have been called the most "musical." The other guys look to me when they can't figure something out and I help them as best I can, without trying to make them feel stupid, or like less of a musician than I am.

EDIT: The only thing that you have to remember about using TABs is that they are usually a person's "opinion" of what is being played. In my eyes, TAB is fine to use to learn a song, just don't expect that it will always be "right." That is a good place for your ear training to start: "It says to play the third fret on the E string, but that doesn't sound right. It sounds better if I play the second fret." If you've ever said this, you are developing your ear and that is a good thing, regardless of how you are doing it.

When I first started playing in cover bands like 16 years ago, tabs were pretty rare. I had to figure out songs by myself and that was a very important part of my training. However, when magazines started coming out with professionally created transcriptions of some of the songs I wanted to learn, I found them very helpful. I could see how my version of a song differed from a version transcribed by someone with a better ear and more experience. The music was also written out in standard AND tab notation so I could see how the rhythms and notes were represented in staff notation in addition to seeing how they were played on the fretboard.

I don't believe that tabs are 'bad'. Tabs have their place but they are no substitute for learning songs by ear or learning standard notation. They are good for documenting not only what is played but how it is played. A given phrase can be played several different ways on the fretboard. It is difficult to notate fretboard positions in standard notation. In this case, I use tablature in addition to standard staff notation.

I do think that the tabs that you find on the web could be detrimental. They are probably not very accurate and don't include staff notation so that complex rhythms are often only sketched in. I am not against books that have transcriptions of songs in tab and standard notations. I think those can be helpful. They at least show you how things are written in standard notation. However, players should try to learn as much as possible by ear.

- Dave

Originally posted by My_man_Freddy
i can take any **** you/any moderator can to throw at me punk:cool: :D :p :o


MY_MAN_DIRTY_HARRY,

As luck would have it, my server is running slow today, so much so that the images don't load in until about 15 seconds after the thread has appeared. So I was looking at the above quote without the smilies at first, and was juuuust about to reach for my asbestos jumpsuit while strapping on my six-shooter when the images finally loaded - at which point I noticed that you had used your entire SMILEY ALLOTMENT in order to clarify your point.

It's all good. For the record, I don't care if you use tabs or not. Like my friend and part-time COMIC nemesis CAPEFEAR, I also find the whole argument tiresome, and lately I only try to respond to such threads when someone actually comes out and asks some version of the burning question: "What's wrong with tabs?" At which point I feel inclined to answer the question...But if you or anybody else (with the exception of my own private students) want to use tabs, go for it. Folks like myself and SMACKHAND and HASBRO and ZON BURNER et.al....(A.K.A. the TABEVIL clan) just want you to make an informed decision when you make it. We certainly don't want anybody to "Just give up" if they are having trouble, we just have our reservations and share them when asked. Um, and sometimes when NOT asked, but we're trying to work on that. ;)

Regards,

THE OUTLAW JOSIE DURRLS

Originally posted by Dave Grossman

I don't believe that tabs are 'bad'. Tabs have their place but they are no substitute for learning songs by ear or learning standard notation. They are good for documenting not only what is played but how it is played. A given phrase can be played several different ways on the fretboard. It is difficult to notate fretboard positions in standard notation. In this case, I use tablature in addition to standard staff notation....

I am not against books that have transcriptions of songs in tab and standard notations. I think those can be helpful. They at least show you how things are written in standard notation. However, players should try to learn as much as possible by ear.

- Dave

Dave,

Your points are well thought out (as usual) and well taken. I guess my biggest beefs with music which includes both tabs and standard notation are:

a) I feel that this "Dual Format" legitimizes tablature to the point where it seems to become on a par with standard notation. Just recently, I was looking all over the net for some bass transcriptions of Bach 2-part inventions to buy, and the only thing I could find were books which included both notation AND tab. I really want to get a hold of the Bach transcriptions, but I feel that requiring my students to buy a book which includes TAB while busting their chops to become better readers would send a contradictory and somewhat hypocritical message. Not only that, but knowing how a couple of my students are, if given such a book they would look only at the TAB while learning the piece, which would also not be productive.

b) A big part of attempting to master any instrument is learning to deal with the decision-making process involved in translating notes on the page into the physical technique needed to produce them, and from there into actual music. On the bass, a big part of THIS process is deciding where you want to play a particular phrase that you may see in standard notation. This decision will be involve various factors, including hand size (big hands have more options), tone quality (each string/position has a noticeably different timbre), and style of playing desired (ACROSS the string is often faster, while ALONG the string is often more expressive, etc). This is not an attempt to start a big argument...I'm just expressing another viewpoint.

Peace,

Chris

Originally posted by Oysterman

TAB can easily be written so that it includes an "insight to the rhythms of the part". I've e.g. seen a lot of Rush bass tabs written in this fashion:

e e e q e e e
|---------------|
|---------------|
|---------------|
|-0-2-3-0-0-0-0-|

Where w = whole note, h = half, q = 1/4, e = 1/8 etc. If it's dotted, it's written with the capital letter, if it's a tie to the next bar, it's written with a +, such as "e+ (bar line) q" or whatever.

But (at LEAST) 95% of all TAB isn't written like this. And sheet music is STILL easier to read than complicated tab, when you get to know it well. :p

well, that's at least _some_ improvement, but it still doesn't tell the time sig, nor does it imply any kind of beat/accent structure.

it's still useless if you're not listening to the song

Originally posted by john turner
well, that's at least _some_ improvement, but it still doesn't tell the time sig,Easy fix:

|--
4|--
4|--
|--nor does it imply any kind of beat/accent structure.That on the other hand, is not a very easy fix. But you can still come a long way with just pure text and it's easier to distribute over the net. Sad thing that all TAB isn't written this way.
it's still useless if you're not listening to the song I wouldn't say it's _useless_ (to be honest, I've had good use for a few of them... shame on me :()... it is however not an excuse for NOT learning standard notation... like, why settle for the second best?

One of the best things i ver did was to learn to read music and charts. there great in a group situation but i will still use TAB in some cases but only as a reference what i play will be alot diferent to the tab cos one you get a starting point then you can usually use your ear for the rest of a tune and/or improvise and modifiy it till your happy.
So i think that we should stop labing TABS as useless and use them if you want and is not dont use them. And im sure as hell gonna download a tab if it means not having to by the music if its too hard to work bye ear. I have a very good ear and i still have trouble figuring stuff out quick in some cases. Sometimes you dont have time to listen listen and listen to song if you need to learn it at short notice.

thankyou and thats my 2 cents
:cool: :p

Originally posted by fleanut
One of the best things i ver did was to learn to read music and charts. there great in a group situation but i will still use TAB in some cases but only as a reference what i play will be alot diferent to the tab cos one you get a starting point then you can usually use your ear for the rest of a tune and/or improvise and modifiy it till your happy.
So i think that we should stop labing TABS as useless and use them if you want and is not dont use them. And im sure as hell gonna download a tab if it means not having to by the music if its too hard to work bye ear. I have a very good ear and i still have trouble figuring stuff out quick in some cases. Sometimes you dont have time to listen listen and listen to song if you need to learn it at short notice.

thankyou and thats my 2 cents
:cool: :p


Good point - I agree:)

Originally posted by T Jay
Assuming you want to play out with many other musicians, TAB is useless in terms of communicating the language of music.

If you're going to play a tune you know in Ab and the sax player knows in F, are you going to hand him your Ab tab sheet?

If it is decided to play the tune in F and you only know the tune from your Ab tab sheet, what will you do,...... go wait in the car till it's over?

NO!!! Forget tab and learn the tune from your ear or traditional written form.

Tab is for players who love their diaper and are afraid to go poop like a big people!

Actually - if you want to change the key of the song, standard notation won't be any better than TAB. When I was a kid, and read music, I just learned that that dot on that line was that finger on that string - know what i mean? It wasn't until later that I started thinking about intervals, what chord the notes were being played over, functions, etc.

In order to transcribe a song, It doesn't matter if you know the names of the notes or chords, but what matters is that you know the FUNCTION of them! And this is not accomplished by reading standard notation, it is accomplished by knowing theory so that you can apply the "chordal pattern" to the new key, or having a good ear. If you don't think about what you play, standard notation is the same as TAB.

I agree with most of what has been said "against" TAB, but I just had to say this.

Originally posted by Chris Fitzgerald
Just recently, I was looking all over the net for some bass transcriptions of Bach 2-part inventions to buy, and the only thing I could find were books which included both notation AND tab.
Just throw some duct tape over the tab parts. :D

A big part of attempting to master any instrument is learning to deal with the decision-making process involved in translating notes on the page into the physical technique needed to produce them, and from there into actual music.
Yes. Definitely. That is an art in an of itself. For many bass lines, it is not difficult to do this and even do it on the fly. Try doing it for a Bach Fugue though. You will quickly realize that the complexity of the music requires much more thought about how to best express a phrase. The arrangements I have been working on for the past 6 years or so have been reworked many times. Every time I play a piece I think of a new way to play a line using different finger positions. Eventually, my transcriptions settle into something that remains more or less static. If I did not have a reliable way to document my finger position decisions, I would undoubtedly forget them if I put the work down for a while. For me, tablature has allowed me to work on much more music than I would have been able to without it. I can put a piece down for a long time and come back to it without losing the finger position info that I spent so much time on. It would be extremely difficult to notate this information on staff notation. I have seen various methods for doing this but nothing that is as precise as tab.

When I started working on the first Cello Suite, I memorized it directly from the bass clef sheet music. I also started working on the 2nd Partita for Solo Violin the same way. When I started on the Chaconne, I realized that I would need something better.

So, anyway. I rely on tablature on a day to day basis for my arrangements. I think it is an excellent tool when used properly and shouldn't be stigmatized because it can be abused. It's a notation system that goes back hundreds of years. Some Bach works come down to us only in a form of tablature. It's the content of the music that counts. The notation system is almost incidental. Is a blind musician any less of a musician because they can't read notated music?

- Dave

Originally posted by Dave Grossman

Just throw some duct tape over the tab parts. :D

Believe it or not, I am actually considering doing this. My wife is an "Office Depot" addict, and she uses this stuff called "Post It correction and cover-up tape". This stuff comes in various widths, and the widest of them MIGHT be wide enough to cover up the TAB parts. It bothers me not a whit that there is a popular edition out there which includes both SN and Tab. But it absolutely BURNS MY *SS that there doesn't seem to be a SN only version on the market.

Yes. Definitely. That is an art in an of itself. For many bass lines, it is not difficult to do this and even do it on the fly. Try doing it for a Bach Fugue though. You will quickly realize that the complexity of the music requires much more thought about how to best express a phrase. The arrangements I have been working on for the past 6 years or so have been reworked many times. Every time I play a piece I think of a new way to play a line using different finger positions. Eventually, my transcriptions settle into something that remains more or less static. If I did not have a reliable way to document my finger position decisions, I would undoubtedly forget them if I put the work down for a while. For me, tablature has allowed me to work on much more music than I would have been able to without it. I can put a piece down for a long time and come back to it without losing the finger position info that I spent so much time on. It would be extremely difficult to notate this information on staff notation. I have seen various methods for doing this but nothing that is as precise as tab.

I agree, and yet still disagree. I agree that it is important with complex music to be able to notate fingering/position choices. Anyone who has ever prepared a "concert music" recital knows that this is an integral part of the preparation. Where I start to disagree is with the TAB part...if someone with bigger or smaller hands, or with different aesthetic/stylistic tastes than me is preparing the tab, then it really doesn't do me that much good.

As an example - back in college (both undergrad and grad) I majored in theory/comp with piano as my principal instrument. My piano teacher (the best teacher I have ever had, bar none, BTW) was about 5'1" and maybe 100lbs, and I was 6'2" and 185 lbs. She could stretch for a 9th, and I could stretch for an 11th. Many of her fingerings were not ideal for me, and many of my fingerings were impossible for her. She insisted that her students work from Urtext editions whenever possible, and that each student must determine how the music was to be fingered based on BOTH physical and musical considerations. Any music that already had an editor's fingerings on it was NOT encouraged, and if that was all there was, I was under strict orders to disregard the editor's fingerings (and all other editorial markings as well). I thought then, and still think now, that this part of my training - the PERSONALIZING of every piece of music I played - was one of the greatest educational experiences I have ever had.

While I admit that all the TAB is really doing is giving another person's viewpoint on these issues, I feel strongly that students should be given a piece of music as a CLEAN SLATE, and learn to make their own personal decisions about technique and musicality every time they play. Given the choice, I would ALWAYS prefer to have an Urtext edition than to rely on what some editor I know little about has had to say about it, even in those cases where I happen to agree with most of the editor's decisions.


.......{Edit}...........

It's the content of the music that counts. The notation system is almost incidental. Is a blind musician any less of a musician because they can't read notated music?

- Dave


Not at all. I have always felt that blind musicians have a musical advantage of sorts by only being able to approach the music from a SONIC perspective (and please, don't anybody try to construe this statement as some kind of PC "don't be insensitive to those with disabilities" nonsense). Notation is truly the "Middleman" between the sound of the original concept of the music and the actual reproduction of same. I also feel that editorial comments on technique, while valuable to beginners and even intermediate players, should be relegated to method books and left OUT of the actual music. But that's only one opinion, and I know that many others feel differently.

Chris

I think sheet music is better, but I have absolutely no problem with tab.

"Those who play by the rules will only be as good as those who do"
that's interesting......

ps...and Steve Vai followed Satriani's rules. He probably has a copy of the Satriani rule book! :D

Originally posted by Chris Fitzgerald
...if someone with bigger or smaller hands, or with different aesthetic/stylistic tastes than me is preparing the tab, then it really doesn't do me that much good.
That's true. My arrangements aren't meant for anyone but me. Many of my fingering choices are very difficult but were selected because they respect the intent of the music better by putting certain notes on different strings or by playing all four parts of a quadruple-stop which is often extremely difficult.

Creating the fingering arrangments are part of the enjoyment of working on these pieces. It is very time consuming though. I can see the advantage of having this already done. It's no substitute for doing it yourself.

... I was under strict orders to disregard the editor's fingerings (and all other editorial markings as well). I thought then, and still think now, that this part of my training - the PERSONALIZING of every piece of music I played - was one of the greatest educational experiences I have ever had.

I work almost exclusively from the Baerenreiter New Bach Edition which is a urtext edition and doesn't include anything that isn't in the original manuscripts. I originally worked from an edition where the editor actually changed many of Bach's markings! I have about a dozen different editions of the Sonatas and Partitas and nearly that many editions of the Cello Suites. I'm willing to bet that they're all significantly different in regards to fingerings and other editorial markings.

While I admit that all the TAB is really doing is giving another person's viewpoint on these issues, I feel strongly that students should be given a piece of music as a CLEAN SLATE, and learn to make their own personal decisions about technique and musicality every time they play. Given the choice, I would ALWAYS prefer to have an Urtext edition than to rely on what some editor I know little about has had to say about it, even in those cases where I happen to agree with most of the editor's decisions.

You have a lot of insight in this issue and I find myself agreeing with your points. We have to realize that not everybody is as committed to the music in this regard. Some people have no interest in learning to read music or spend the time to come up with their own arrangements. I think it's important not to alienate people who have different goals than we do. For them learning songs from tablature is just fine. If that's what they want to do, I don't want to criticize them for it.

If I was teaching someone, I would have them do what I did when I started out. I would have them transcribe songs out in standard notation. I didn't really use tablature until I started on my Bach stuff. I still have many of my old transcriptions including some Yes and Rush.

- Dave

I agree with the thread starter, I've never understood all the anti-tab sentiment.
Yes it is far better to learn it by ear or tab it out yourself... If you have a lot of time on your hands!!!
I probably know around about two or three hundred songs. There is no way I would have had the time to sit down and figure them all out by myself. Its far more efficient to download a tab, at least as a starting point. If it isnt correct, it is a lot easier to simply correct it then it is to figure the entire thing out from scratch..
Yes, it is far better to learn from music notation then tab... if you have money to burn! The average bass notation book, if by some luck you can even find the bass music that you want, costs around $20. I have 1000 tabs on my computer that didnt cost me a cent.
Yes, you dont get rhythm or timing from tab, which is irrelevent if you've heard the song. Who covers a song without ever having heard it before?
Tab isnt handy in a band situation, but the tab tells you what notes to play and when, which, if you know your scales and your fretboard is all you need to know. All you have to do is adjust to fit the other musicians.
And finally, without tab a lot of people wouldnt have picked up the instrument to begin with. I know that in the beginning there was no way that I was disciplined enough to learn all music theory to play the instrument. I learned that as I learned how to play, but to start with it was tab that taught me how basslines worked, how to construct basslines and how to play songs.
Jim

Originally posted by Dave Grossman


We have to realize that not everybody is as committed to the music in this regard. Some people have no interest in learning to read music or spend the time to come up with their own arrangements. I think it's important not to alienate people who have different goals than we do. For them learning songs from tablature is just fine. If that's what they want to do, I don't want to criticize them for it.

Agreed. Really, I'm serious about that. At the same time, when somebody comes right out and asks the for opinions on "what's wrong with tab", I don't see anything wrong with coming right out and giving my opinion. I won't speak for the rest of CLAN TABEVIL, but it has been my general impression that much of the "TAB Bashing" that is done around here is intentionally WAAAAYYY over the top in an attempt to add a bit of humor into the discussion. Some people find that annoying. Some people recognize the irony (double irony?) and play along, thus joining in the fun. I suppose if the humor doesn't translate, it could seem mean, but I think that in most cases, there is little mean-spirited intent.

If I was teaching someone, I would have them do what I did when I started out. I would have them transcribe songs out in standard notation.

Funny you should mention that...One of the students I want the Bach transcriptions for also happens to be in my Chamber Orchestration class. The first part of the class is about transcription/notation, and the rest of the class will be transcribing 3-part Sinfonias or Fugues....but the bass student will have to do a couple of 2 part inventions instead. That will be great experience for him, but I don't always have that luxury.


I still have many of my old transcriptions including some Yes and Rush.

- Dave

I also have a stockpile of transcriptions, and I find it interesting to look back on the ones I did a while ago and find the mistakes/omissions in them...it just goes to show, it DOES get better with practice.


DURRL

THATS just it lizard king. i'm very old you know (37) and didnt start the bass (or any other instrument, besides the skinflute) until 36! last year i could barely know if the pitch was going up or down. so tabs along with professional instruction. is really a lifesaver. ive just finished tabbing my first song by ear. (parisienne walkways by gary moore) a simple song, but i feel good about myself. ill never be a great bass player, i just want to feel the music, ya know.

Playing by ear takes a while for some people to figure out. Took me about 1 and a half years for me. Not everyone is born w/ good listening. But, you can improve.

Of course tab is not the best form of communicating how to play something... but it is the easiest for beginners. Don't say that it is wrong to learn on tab... people play music for fun... don't make it an excercise. I say use tab for a while, but don't neglect to learn to transcribe by ear and read sheet music.

I guess point i'm trying to make is keep music fun.. if you wanna play tabs.. go for it. But if you want to become a good musician you can't learn just tab.

Originally posted by Oysterman

I wouldn't say it's _useless_ (to be honest, I've had good use for a few of them... shame on me :()... it is however not an excuse for NOT learning standard notation... like, why settle for the second best?

yeah. it's obviously not useless, but it _IS_ useless if you don't have a copy of the notation or a copy of the song to listen to - tab can't stand alone.

why even bother with drawing the neck? why not just have the string name ("e", "a", etc.) and the fret number. then you could convey a string of information textually to even an idiot ;) and still give the same amount that tab gives. shoot, that gives me an idea...

what if someone came up with a text-only version of tab - you could have groupings for sections, sub groupings for measures, and sub sub groups for individual notes, with information on the string, the fret, and the note duration. i would rather use the note and the octave, instead of the string and the fret, but i imagine most tab users aren't going to know their necks well enough to be able to use that. like this...



[4/4({e1.4}{e3.4}{a0.4}{a1.4})({a3.4}{d0.4}{d2.4}{d3. 4})]



for a f major scale, starting on the f on the low e string. it gives the time sig - 4/4, the note duration, (the number after the string and fret - e1.4, where "e" is the string, "1" is the fret, and the "4" means quarter note duration), and it gives the measure structure which will imply accents.

like i said, i would prefer note names, as opposed to fret positions, but you could do it either way. in fact, this would be a better and quicker way to convey musical information textually than tab, since it could convey more information, and it could also be used to convey actual note names, and therefore the complete textual conversion of standard notation.

hmm...

JT, thats a really good idea! trademark that right now, you'll make a fortune! That would be a very good system for beginners, as the notes could be placed above the lyrics, in the same way that guitar chords are written down. JT, you are a genius!

Don't say that it is wrong to learn on tab... people play music for fun...

I agree, thats just it, a lot of people arent interested in being musicians, they just want to have some fun. I know a lot of friends who picked up the guitar after finding out how simple tab is. They have no musical ambitions, they just want to have some fun and to be able to hear something on the radio and to be able to play it. And for a lot of them, (I was one) something that started out as something just for fun, they got a lot more serious about and were inspired to learn everything else. Who can say that something that inspires people to pick up an instrument is bad?
Jim

I dont understand why everyone is so down on TABs. EVERYTHING that you can get your hands on to help you learn ANYTHING is positive. I use my ear, standard notation,tab,friends, I dont care what it is or where it comes from. DONOT give up and NEVER be to proud to read a piece of paper.Keep on woodshed'en brother and be encouraged, you will rock one day with a pocket FULL of tabs.

AMEN my bass brother, as we speak im giving myself the full treatment in the woodshed. mmmmm pain, i love it. im gonna tab my way to the top of my city street! then nobody can stop me, not even JT.

Originally posted by fretbuzz
AMEN my bass brother, as we speak im giving myself the full treatment in the woodshed. mmmmm pain, i love it. im gonna tab my way to the top of my city street! then nobody can stop me, not even JT.

:rolleyes:

sigh...

I'll try this one more time, only instead of three different replies, I'll address this to I'MABRICKLAYER, TRUSTSPAM, and FRETBUTT all at the same time. Ok guys, here's the deal:

Q: What is the NAME of THIS THREAD?

A: "What's wrong with tabs?"

Q: What did many people do while RESPONDING TO this thread?

A:They answered the very explicitly worded question and gave THEIR OPINIONS about what they thought was wrong with tabs.

Q: Is anybody going to get mad if you continue to use TABZZZ after reading this thread?

A: No.

Q: Does anybody who doesn't know you really care whether you use TABZ or not?

A: Probably not.

Q: Does everyone here and on this board have the right to their own opinion?

A: Yes. This includes TAB USERS as well as those who, like myself, feel that using TAB is taking the lazy road when that energy would be better spent learning to read music like a professional musician.

Q: Do I or any other member of CLAN TABEVIL think - even for a minute - that by voicing our opinions on TABZ we are going to make some big difference in lots of peoples lives by showing them the correct path?

A: Not really...but we still retain the right to answer the question when asked.

Regards,

DURRL TABEVIL

Chris,

You have just created the first TAB FAQ for Talkbass. I propose we make a permanent link to your post...



;)

Q: Does anybody who doesn't know you really care whether you use TABZ or not?
They must, because whenever anybody posts a question about tab, they are inundated with people telling them about how using a tab is evil and is going to ruin their life :rolleyes:

using TAB is taking the lazy road when that energy would be better spent learning to read music like a professional musician.
If people have the time on their hands to do that and the money to burn on expensive sheet music, then power to them. Anyway, you'll find that a lot of people that use tabs do know how to read music.
Jim

Originally posted by fretbuzz
im gonna tab my way to the top of my city street! then nobody can stop me, not even JT.

If TAB gets you to the top of your city street, GREAT. I'd never want to stop anyone from THAT!!!!!

T Jay

you know what? (wipe) i really love you guys (wipe)

Originally posted by the-lizard-king

They must, because whenever anybody posts a question about tab, they are inundated with people telling them about how using a tab is evil and is going to ruin their life :rolleyes:





THE_REPTILIAN_MONARCH,

Hmmm. I can't recall anyone from my particular clan ever seriously saying that tabs are EVIL , and that using them will cause you to RUIN YOUR LIFE. I can, however, recall many instances where my fellow standard notation promoting brethren have made a great show of treating this issue as if it's life and death AS A JOKE, so that the issue can be debated with a humorous undertone rather than as a flame war.

I don't believe that I can state my OWN beliefs on this matter much better than I already have in this thread, but I would like to state for the record - AGAIN - that I couldn't care less if somebody that I haven't met uses TAB. It makes ZERO difference to my life. But if somebody posts the question, "what's wrong with TABZ?", that's the same as inviting remarks from the peanut gallery. CLAN TABEVIL is part of the peanut gallery. 'Nuff said.

Regards,

DURRL "IfIfindoutyou'vebeenusingtabsI'llhuntyoudownlikead ogandburnyourhousetotheground...:rolleyes: NOT!!!! TABEVIL

THE_REPTILIAN_MONARCH,
:D I like that! But I prefer just Jim.

I agree with you, I dont care how people play, as long as they play. But when I did use tab, I found it condescending when I would ask about what something in a tab meant and people would start replying with reasons I shouldnt be using it. Joke or not. Geez, all I wanted to do was play a song I heard on the radio, without having to order sheet music!
Jim

Originally posted by the-lizard-king
But when I did use tab, I found it condescending when I would ask about what something in a tab meant and people would start replying with reasons I shouldnt be using it. Joke or not. Geez, all I wanted to do was play a song I heard on the radio, without having to order sheet music!
Jim

I could certainly understand that, as could most of Clan Tabevil, I'm sure.

IMO we all of us need to keep in mind, though, that sometimes the best advice you get may be something that you don't particularly want to hear. (I'm speaking generically now, not of you in particular.) This, IMO, is one of those times.

When someone here responds to a tab request with suggestions to get hip to standard notation instead, it's usually not in the spirit of putting the requester down. It's more like, say, if you saw somebody trying to cut a lawn with nail clippers. Wouldn't you be tempted to say, hey, that will go a lot easier if you use a lawnmower? :D

Originally posted by the-lizard-king

:D I like that! But I prefer just Jim.

Jim


Jim,

Point taken. No condescention intended.

Chris

Chris,
No worries :)

Richard,
Advice is cool, everyone is open to suggestions to help them play better. Hey, thats what this place is for right?

btw, I was just speaking generally, its been a while since I have used tab.
But how do you guys get your hands on bass sheet music? I dont know what is like over there, but its almost impossible to find anything you want. Every music store has like RHCP and the Beatles bass, but thats about it. I usually find myself reading guitar or piano music and playing bass from that.

Jim

Originally posted by the-lizard-king
Richard,
Advice is cool, everyone is open to suggestions to help them play better. Hey, thats what this place is for right?

btw, I was just speaking generally, its been a while since I have used tab.
But how do you guys get your hands on bass sheet music? I dont know what is like over there, but its almost impossible to find anything you want. Every music store has like RHCP and the Beatles bass, but thats about it. I usually find myself reading guitar or piano music and playing bass from that.

Jim

Cool. You're right about the comparative rarity of bass sheet music. However, I often actually *prefer* to read off piano music, because you can often see more of what else is going on.

Originally posted by the-lizard-king

But how do you guys get your hands on bass sheet music? I dont know what is like over there, but its almost impossible to find anything you want. Every music store has like RHCP and the Beatles bass, but thats about it. I usually find myself reading guitar or piano music and playing bass from that.

Jim

Depends on what it is...for Jazz, I usually use various forms of fake books, or if it's original stuff, often handwritten scores prepared by whoever wrote it. In addition, when I REALLY want to play something specific, I often end up transcribing it. It's a lot of work, but the payoff - both immediate and long term - is always worth the effort.

Never met a TAB that didn't Suck
http://tjwagner.osolutions.net/tab/tabcan-old2.jpg.

i like tabs because i can learn songs quickly & easily and im not a real "hardcore" bass player. i just like to jam with my buddies.

Originally posted by T Jay
If you're going to play a tune you know in Ab and the sax player knows in F, are you going to hand him your Ab tab sheet?

If it is decided to play the tune in F and you only know the tune from your Ab tab sheet, what will you do,...... go wait in the car till it's over?


I thought Bass's and Sax's have different cleffs??? it's Bass = E
Sax = G
if i'm not mistaken.

Originally posted by godsmack


I thought Bass's and Sax's have different cleffs??? it's Bass = E
Sax = G
if i'm not mistaken.

You're not mistaken that bass and sax read different clefs. The bass reads bass clef and sax reads treble. Saxes are in different keys, as well, but your transposition is off. Assuming you meant alto saxophone it would be Bass - E and Sax C#. Tenor would be bass - E and Sax F#.

The point TJay was trying to make was that tabs are not part of the "musical language" we all speak. They will not help you get a gig, nor will they help you communicate with your fellow musicians.

Originally posted by the-lizard-king
If people have the time on their hands to do that...then [more] (sic) power to them. Jim

I think the greatest modern myth is that we're all as busy as we like to say we are.

Originally posted by jazzbo


I think the greatest modern myth is that we're all as busy as we like to say we are.

No I am not following you. :D

Nice thought. I love that I get most of my work done before noon and slack most of the day while it takes everyone I work with 5 hours to find 10 minutes.

I think the greatest modern myth is that we're all as busy as we like to say we are

Maybe. I agree with you everyone is always saying how busy they are, but there does seem to be an awful lot of TV being watched, music being listened to, going out etc. But at the same time I never find myself doing nothing. Im always doing something, theres always something occupying my little mind.
Jim

I think we have become terrible at prioritizing and good time management. Budgeting time, filtering out things that waste your time, and creating a "schedule" at least once, (to see where your time goes), not only helps you prioritize things, but it also is a wonderful tool to alleviate stress.

Originally posted by the-lizard-king
Chris,
No worries :)

Richard,
Advice is cool, everyone is open to suggestions to help them play better. Hey, thats what this place is for right?

btw, I was just speaking generally, its been a while since I have used tab.
But how do you guys get your hands on bass sheet music? I dont know what is like over there, but its almost impossible to find anything you want. Every music store has like RHCP and the Beatles bass, but thats about it. I usually find myself reading guitar or piano music and playing bass from that.

Jim


I think this is missing one of the big points about why people advise against tab. You always get these requests saying "I needtab for this now" - there's one in OT as I speak! ;)

You seem to be saying that the only alternative is to get hold of the sheet music - but I would always say you don't need either and I would always advise trying transcribing it yourself. The more you do this the easier it gets and it helps you become a better musician in many ways. Whereas just using tab does nothing for your development in this respect.

I've always done this and will just put on MTV or the radio at random and play along with whatever is on - usually in a few bars I can work out what the bass is doing.

People throw up the argument that a lot of great musicians like Hendrix or whoever didn't read sheet music - yeah, but they sure as hell didn't use tabs either! They developed great ears for transcribing what they heard - like Hendrix was supposed to have been able to play all of Sergeant Pepper after hearing it once.

You get this type of skill by doing it a lot and my view is that every time someone turns to tab, they are stopping or holding back their development in this area.

Originally posted by jazzbo
I think we have become terrible at prioritizing and good time management. Budgeting time, filtering out things that waste your time, and creating a "schedule" at least once, (to see where your time goes), not only helps you prioritize things, but it also is a wonderful tool to alleviate stress.

this from a moderator of OT.

:D

Originally posted by john turner


this from a moderator of OT.

:D

Touche'

I have no witty response to that. :eek:

i'm an occasional tab user.

my last heavy use of tab was in rehearsals for the last (crappy bar) band i was in... some of the tabs came out of guitar mags, others i transcribed myself onto standard notation paper (the best thing to use, esp w/5-string :) )

the last thing i tabbed was a minutemen song for a tab page back in '97. not much else since although if i get the bug, i'll be getting out the notation paper and some pencils! :D

btw, i know my theory... anyone that didn't understand "play a blues change in a" or play "g-b-flat-a-c" isn't someone i'd want to work with.

cj

OK, here it is.

I play almost exclusively from Tabs, I tought myself to play, and I like to think I'm pretty good.

As for the point of changing keys, if you're good, then when you know a tune from a tab, you can switch it wherever you want!

Also there is a wealth of tab right here on thsi sight, I don't see a wealth of sheet music anywhere but my local music shop, and I don't have enough wealth to access that just to figure out a riff I can't really hear.

I use my earsure, but when I started I'd look at a tab, and then listen to the song. Even now, though I can figure it outr by ear I like to have some pointers from a tab.

I agree it doesn't tell you as much as sheet music, but it doesn't try to, most tabs say stuff liek "you'll have to listen to the song to get the idea, it's just a simple and very popular way of letting people know the notes in a tune...


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Tab has existed longer than sheet music, it was around in medieval times, OK with different notation, but exactly the same theory!!!
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++