After many years of Ken Smith strings on my Ric 4003, I finally decided that I had to try Rotosounds on it. I mean, if it works for Geddy Lee and Chris Squire, than it's gotta be great, right?

Well, I hate them. They're definitely duller sounding than the Smiths and they chew the hell out of my fingers. They are easily the roughest strings I've ever played.

Why do folks love these strings? Does anyone out there love them? Hate them?

Rotosounds were the first roundwound strings. Before Rotosounds, all bass players had were flatwound strings. I have Roros on my Zon and I like them, but there are other good strings too.

Will C. http://www.talkbass.com/ubb/cool.gif

------------------
You can't hold no groove if you ain't got no pocket!

I have used em for 19 year with no problem.
I use Elites if I cannot get the Roto's. Its all down to personal preference. If you like Smiths stick with them, if not experiment.

------------------
Say something clever and someone steals it

Chris

I tend to agree that Rotosounds have a good name because they were the first - in the early 80s, they were the only strings to get that roundwound sound and I used them for years and years. But now there are lots of better strings about and I have experimented with different ones through the 90s. I think D'Addarios are the best, but they have been prohibitively expensive in the UK. Now I can buy them direct from the US via the Internet, I wouldn't use anything else and Rotosounds sound definitely "second best" to me.

Hey Bruce, I'll actually agree with you on this one. http://www.talkbass.com/ubb/smile.gif I played Roto's for years and recently switched to the D'Addarios. They seem to last longer and are easier on my fingers.

Ive used Rotosounds for years also...i recently tried some D'addario XL nickels...felt MUCH better, deeper sounding, AND brighter. I love them. Its definitely preference. I use Rotosounds on my Tobias and Ibanez, because they need the brightness, whereas i could practically put flats on my Modulus and it would be bright, because of the neck. And the rotos dont bother my fingers, like they did with yours, saint. All preference.

I've found Rotosound Swing Bass to be fairly inconsistent. When they're good, they're the best...but when they're bad you get things like dead strings in a fresh pack, or strings actually covered in grease in a brand new set (on more than one occassion!!) Maybe they're better now, but I gave up on them and so have a lot of people.

I've never had a problem with Rotos - and at the mo' they are still my string of choice! Maybe I've just been lucky!

They do have a very 'dry' feel to them ,but I quite like it! Have tried a few other varieties and didn't feel they were any better!

So ,I came back to what I was happy with! All down to personal choice really innit!?

I used Rotos at one time. I had a problem with a dumb string one time: Rotosound were superb in the way they handled the complaint.

But I used another bass with different strings for a while and, after that, Rotos felt like steel hawsers to me. I just can't play them now....nor do I want to, if I'm honest.

I much prefer the flexible feel of TIs and don't see me ever changing from them.

John

Holy resurrected threads batman

Ok since my last post on this thread (nearly 3 years ago) I have found Rotosounds to be inconsistent. I had two bad batches that sounded dull. I use Elites or Ernie Ball's now.

Originally posted by CS
Holy resurrected threads batman

Ok since my last post on this thread (nearly 3 years ago) I have found Rotosounds to be inconsistent. I had two bad batches that sounded dull. I use Elites or Ernie Ball's now.



Weird - this was on the home page listing when I replied to it, and the date of the last postrer was 2003.....now it looks like I resurrected the thread.....weird!:confused:

Ken Smith strings are actually made by GHS. They're the Super-Steels relabeled.

I agree with most of you about the inconsistency of theese strings and the rough texture. I do however ,like the sound of theese strings and have used them for years. I recently tried EBS ss round wounds and love them.

Originally posted by seansbrew
I agree with most of you about the inconsistency of theese strings and the rough texture. I do however ,like the sound of theese strings and have used them for years. I recently tried EBS ss round wounds and love them.



It's weird, in about 12 years of using them, I've never had a duffer - I don't doubt that they had problems, it's well documented!


Guess I was just lucky! I do love the sound, and I'm actually OK with the dry way they feel!

In doing string research Rotosounds makes a lot of different variations of strings. I like them, maybe you just tried a kind that was not suited to your bass, not that it matters because you switched anyway, but I'm sure there are some Roto's that if you tried you may like.

I was a Rotosound player in the 70's and got away
from them in the early 80's due to quality problems, I was getting a lot of dead strings
fresh out of the pack. I went to GHS, D'Addario,
LaBella, Picato, etc, etc. I must have tried
every string on the market. These days I'm back
to Rotosound! They've updated their manufacturing
and distribution, the West Coast rep, Hammer
Bouri, is one of the nicest, most helpful guys
I have ever met. I'm happy to be back with
them.

Smith: I guess it's just your preference about the Rotos, but I love em. One thing you may be missing about the Chris Squire and Geddy Lee sound however is that they change their Rotos just about before every resording session (I read it somewhere...)and show. They also have bi-amp setups that can bring that can bring the treble and punch out of a turkey sandwich, so I'm sure the extra high-end amping is a part of their sound as well. But it does seem as if the brightness wears off all Rotos gradually as you pluck/pop/slap/beat the hell out of em, but it's not always a bad thing. I'm playing the Swing Bass Nickels now like crazy and I've had them on there for about 4 months now, even though I've got a fresh pack of Solo Bass 55's and Swing Bass SS 66's waiting for me. There's just something about their sound once they get broken in that's cool. I can boost the treble to get more ring out of them, but the bass remains great and I think it sounds a little more rounded. It all depends on how much you want out of them. Fiddle around a little bit with $20 Rotos
or spend $40 on some other brand of strings? With my luck I'd accidently break one of the $40 set strings trying to play Roundabout or Freewill for the 400th time anyways... Just experiment and find what you (and your wallet) like. A for quality I've liked what I've seen so far..

Wait a second, as I understand it jaco used rotosounds becuase of the roundwound mwah that he could get.

now, Bruce said he used them in the 80s because they were the only available roundwounds at the time, when were they actually released?

was jaco using them on his '76 debut? what about the recordings before that...he certainly has a really growly sound...are you going to try and tell me he had a growl that rich with flats?

Originally posted by Wrong Robot
now, Bruce said he used them in the 80s because they were the only available roundwounds at the time, when were they actually released?

was jaco using them on his '76 debut? what about the recordings before that...he certainly has a really growly sound...are you going to try and tell me he had a growl that rich with flats?

Rotosound started making the Swing bass RS66 set in the 60's -I'd guess 1966 hence the name. John Entwistle helped develop it.

I think Picato were making roundwounds in the UK soon after though.

Only strings I have ever had problems with were Rotosounds, got some dud E-strings early in my bass playing life. Couldn't afford to chance it anymore so I gave up on them. Perhaps they are better nowadays.

Originally posted by CS
Holy resurrected threads batman


:D

In the late 70s I switched from Fender flats to Rotosound 66s. I loved how "alive" they were compared to flats, but, hated the excessive finger noise. I thought: Why can't someone make a string with a happy medium?

Then I found them: D'Addarios. I used them for about 15 years straight without experimenting, and then I found my string mate - Dean Markley Blue Steels. :) If you like D'Addarios, you'll probably like Blues; mellower, fuller and more balanced string to string. (IMHO)

I've since also tried Ernie Ball Slinkys. These are the best inexpensive strings out there, but, I don't think they sound good on every bass, as I feel the Blues do. My Ibanez fretless came with Elixirs, and I like these a lot too.

OOPPS! Back on topic. :o

I don't really like Roto 66s because they sound and feel too rough to me. I do, however, like Roto 77 flats. Bright & bouncy for a flat string.

To each his/her own.

Mike

Try Blue Steels. ;)

Hi everybody,

I have used (and sometimes still use it) Rotosounds.
Didn't like 'em.

My style of playing besides 'praise & worship' in church can I think also be described as a lot of finger-style action (funky?), with occasional slapping on the side.

I don't like the Rotosound-sound. Sounds very raw with a slap-buzz edge to it.. and this is when playing finger-style.

My conclusion: For picking-style (with attitude.) these might be good strings.

Love D'Addario's, the feel AND the sound.. But I do NOT like the fact that the D & E string just break way too soon.
This past week Ernie Balls came up in my mind to give them a try, since D'Addario's EXP strings aren't available everywhere in The Netherlands yet.

Why I put Rotosounds on my bass is on recommendation of our local music-shop.. and because he tried to sell me something else since D'Addario's were not on stock.
And I fell for it.

I used RS Swingbass 66 because they make them in extra long scale 5-string. Others do but I have seen these stocked on the sheves. Now, I am using TI Superalloys. Much smoother and lower tension. ahhhh. I'll try anything that isn't all SS and will fit on my 36" scale 5-string.

I've recently bought two sets of Rotosounds to try.

A set of RS77 flats I've put on my P-bass - they're phat, smooth and lovely.

And a set of RS66 Swing bass. I had a Dud E string, which was promptly replaced by the dealer, but I don't like the strings. Too bright, and a rough surface giving me excessive finger noise. They really feel like they're grinding my frets too.

As far as roundwounds go, I much prefer GHS Boomers, but the Rotosound flats are nice.

I grew up playing Rotosound RS66 45-105.I switched to DR
Highbeams in 1996.I still use the Rotos on one of my Fender Fretless Jazz Basses so I can stay close to the "Jaco" tone.
I am glad I played them for years & years cause I built up
really good calluses from them.Playing down here in Central
Florida with all the humidity I find the DR last alot longer than
the Rotos ever did.When we used to practice on wednesday
and gig thur-fri-sat the Roto's would be dead by Sunday .Where the DR
HighBeams would last over 4 months on the same schedule.

I grew up playing Rotosound RS66 45-105.I switched to DR
Highbeams in 1996.I still use the Rotos on one of my Fender Fretless Jazz Basses so I can stay close to the "Jaco" tone.
I am glad I played them for years & years cause I built up
really good calluses from them.Playing down here in Central
Florida with all the humidity I find the DR last alot longer than
the Rotos ever did.When we used to practice on wednesday
and gig thur-fri-sat the Roto's would be dead by Sunday .Where the DR
HighBeams would last over 4 months on the same schedule.

>>> It was the opposite for me. I can dust a set of DR's
in 3-4 hours, they don't cut the mustard for me at all, & they're too stiff..

Slug

>>> It was the opposite for me. I can dust a set of DR's
in 3-4 hours, they don't cut the mustard for me at all, & they're too stiff..

Slug

Maybe the climate has something to do with that.Also I always
wondered how long strings sit on store shelves or in warehouses waiting to be shipped to stores, and if that had
an effect on how long they last. I talked to a rep from a string
company once, and he told me strings have a 3 year shelf life.
But if they sit in a hot whse somewhere I would think that
would have some effect on string life.I like "zingy" strings. :)

Maybe the climate has something to do with that.Also I always
wondered how long strings sit on store shelves or in warehouses waiting to be shipped to stores, and if that had
an effect on how long they last. I talked to a rep from a string
company once, and he told me strings have a 3 year shelf life.
But if they sit in a hot whse somewhere I would think that
would have some effect on string life.I like "zingy" strings. :)

>>> Body chemistry also plays a part, it seems.

I think some of the posters are under the impression that Rotos were the FIRST roundwound. Not so, but they were the first POPULAR rounds. I know La Bella and Fender were making rounds at least as far back as into the 60s.

I've switched around a lot, but at the moment I love the Boomers set that goes from .045 to .105. I think I'll stick with them or at least with that gauge set up.

Rotosounds are the only thing I've ever used. From day one, I loved the sound and haven't seen the need to use any other kind. I use their black nylonwounds, which feel smooth as silk.

I think some of the posters are under the impression that Rotos were the FIRST roundwound. Not so, but they were the first POPULAR rounds. I know La Bella and Fender were making rounds at least as far back as into the 60s.

I've switched around a lot, but at the moment I love the Boomers set that goes from .045 to .105. I think I'll stick with them or at least with that gauge set up.

>>>Rotosound started making their "Swingbass" roundwound bass strings in 1962. AFIK, they were the first.

Slug

>>>Rotosound started making their "Swingbass" roundwound bass strings in 1962. AFIK, they were the first.

Slug
I didn't know that. Interesting. They really gained popularity in the U.S. sometime in the mid 70's. Prior to that - even when you went to large music store in a decent sized city - all you could find in the way of bass strings were La Bella and sometimes Fender. And the La Bella were that flatwound set that was labeled medium and was HEAVY as hell.

I've been using rotosounds for some time, I haven't found them to be inconsistent. They sound very well on my bass, and I'm not prepared to pay double for DR strings or whatever.
Some weeks ago, though, I heard from the shopowner of a bassguitar-store in Holland that Rotosound strings are significantly harder on your frets than any other type of strings. So, to keep my frets from wearing down I'm going to try other strings next time. I've been happy with Ernie Balls before, but I'm not to overly picky when it comes to strings.

Actually, I take back what I said earlier. I'm using a set of Fender nylonwounds right now, but only because the local shop didn't have any Roto's.

I've been using rotosounds for some time, I haven't found them to be inconsistent. They sound very well on my bass, and I'm not prepared to pay double for DR strings or whatever.
Some weeks ago, though, I heard from the shopowner of a bassguitar-store in Holland that Rotosound strings are significantly harder on your frets than any other type of strings. So, to keep my frets from wearing down I'm going to try other strings next time. I've been happy with Ernie Balls before, but I'm not to overly picky when it comes to strings.

>>> Stainless roundwounds are hard on your frets no matter what company makes them..Rotosound also makes the Swingbass set in Nickel which is easier on frets and fingers.
Ask for the Blue package instead of the Orange one. You might also try the RS55 "Solo Bass" which is compression wound for a smoother feel and less fret wear, that's the green package.

>>Slug

>>> Stainless roundwounds are hard on your frets no matter what company makes them..Rotosound also makes the Swingbass set in Nickel which is easier on frets and fingers.
Ask for the Blue package instead of the Orange one. You might also try the RS55 "Solo Bass" which is compression wound for a smoother feel and less fret wear, that's the green package.

>>Slug

Hey thanks!
I'll give those a try later on, as I really like the sound of these strings after a week or two.
Not to be stubborn, but I remember the man saying that the Rotosounds stainless strings were harder on your frets compared to other stainless strings.
I'm sure I can get those other types of strings you're talking about through one of those big internetmusic-shops in Europe.

Niels

Ken Smith strings are actually made by GHS. They're the Super-Steels relabeled.


all of them? sure....... :hmm:

Smith's strings are made by GHS. The Rock Masters I played were identical to the SuperSteels. You've taken something out of context and projected it into an unrelated thread. This thread was about Rotosound, so what's your point? If you
want to take issue with me about something, PM me, and we can discuss it as well as your intentions; as they obviously aren't along the lines of injecting anything positive into this thread.

Bought a set last week. I hate them. They sound ok but they don't feel very slick.

Rotosound are the strings I have used most, and I like the tone and feel of them, although I have met many who have dissed them extensively. In my opinion they give a good sound when they are old, and it stays consistent for a long, long time. I prefer the heavier gauges and am currently using flatwounds.

I also liked Elites but found that their sound wore off very quickly. D'addario were nice, and lasted well; I would consider getting them again instead of Rotosound.

For the record, my current strings are "Rotosound Jazz Bass Flatwound 45-130 5 String", with an additional .35 for the high C string. They sound pretty damn good IMHO.

Jennifer

...and at a gig yesterday, I broke one of them, the "D" string. Coincidence? :) I should keep my mouth shut in future!

i just tried the ROTOBASS RB40-5 on my fretless, they sound really great.
for 19$ i would say it's a good deal.

Ken Smith strings are actually made by GHS. They're the Super-Steels relabeled.

Is that true?

If so, what GHS model are the Ken Smith nickel burners?

Rotosound are the strings I have used most, and I like the tone and feel of them, although I have met many who have dissed them extensively. In my opinion they give a good sound when they are old, and it stays consistent for a long, long time. I prefer the heavier gauges and am currently using flatwounds.

I also liked Elites but found that their sound wore off very quickly.

following dead string problems with Roto swing bass (2 packs with dead G's) I gave Elites stadium stainless steel a go- slightly duller than Rotos, sounded great for one gig, but went really dead after.

I've been boiling the set since and it doesn't stay bright for as long as the Rotos did after boiling.
it's strange as everyone used to claim Elites lasted longer.

I have used Rotosounds for the past 4 years, and I love them. Before that I was using Ernie Ball Bass Slinkies and thought they sounded like garbage.

The music store in my area just changed locations so they are out of Rotosounds, so I've been using GHS Bass Boomers and absolutely hate them. They sound really good for the first two days and then loose their brightness. I like a really bright tone so I change my strings quite often, every month or so with the Rotosounds, but my last set of GHS's only lasted 2 weeks before they were dead. Plus the GHS strings cost more, and when I change my strings as often as I do, I can't afford to spend $40 at a time.

I can't wait for them to get the Rotosounds back :bawl:

I have mainly used Rotos for the last 20 years, but when working in a music store I got to experiment with strings on the cheap. I used Boomers, Markley Blue Steels, D'ads and DR's (and a few others I can't recall ATM) and I always seem to come back to Rotos. I have never broken one, and the are bright and durable in sound. The are also the best bang for the buck you can buy in a string.


Next, I think I'll try Thomas-Infeilds if they have anything comparable.

Ted

An AWFUL lot of talk here about the “Sound” of strings,but absolutely no mention of technique.Gentelmen that’s precisely what it comes down to here.

Not “Preference”,but TECHNIQUE.

In short if you have to have the MOST aggressive strings,(rotosound) available either your technique,& or gear is SEVERELY lacking,you think you have to sound like somebody else,or you’re simply shooting for the most OBNOXIOUS sound possible.

I have played Rotosounds only to be HORRIFIED at how QUICKLY they RUIN perfectly good,(new) frets.With a fresh set of Roto’s I can EASILY toast frets within thirty minutes of play WITHOUT even trying!

Quite frankly the IDOL,(sheehan,lee,entwistle etc...) worshipers don’t grasp the fact that these guys either play,or have played with a VERY light touch,& have the clout to have CUSTOM strings made SPECIFICALLY for them.In most cases it doesn’t make any difference at all that you can buy some of them pre packaged with your FAVORITE artist plastered on the thing as you’re more than likely getting straight production run,only in different gauges.

Anybody who knows anything REALIZES,& accepts the fact that a Gem bought from Ibanez is NOT the same guitar that Via is,or will actually play,& so on.Not only that,most Guitars endorsed by BIGTIME artists aren’t even made by the company who’s name is plastered on the headstock!They’re stricktly handbuilt by expert Luthiers,who no one is familiar with except the BIG guys.

The same goes for ALL gear,amps,strings etc...

The point is DON’T be as nieve as a GIDDY teen who simply HAS to have what he THINKS his IDOL plays,(including strings).That is EXACTLY what the manufactures relay on for a GREAT portion of their business,& it’s essential in pulling off the venerable BAIT,& SWITCH.

On to technique.If you’re playing freehanded with your Meathooks,you NEED hooks on them plain,& simple.If you expect to have ANY definition in your “sound” that is.

I’ve seen guys with up to a quarter inch of slop hanging off the end of their fingers,& no nails to support,reinforce,or define these living Jell-O Jigglers,much less actually touch the strings.

Of COURSE your sound is going to be FLAT,& DULL!

What did you expect? You might as well be playing with pencil erasers!Be logical Gentlemen,if you HAVE to play with strings that are abrasive enough to EAT steel then something’s not right!!!

Another thing to take into consideration is the fact that some,if not all of the BIG Rotosound endorsers are playing a specific way.For the most part they’re using a VERY light touch to achieve a VERY low action,in order to increase their speed,& stamina,(not to mention ALLOT of these guys are straight up,& down the neck technical players,with no string flexation to speak of) thus string excursion is kept to an ABSOLUTE minimum.

Fine for them if they TOAST gear as they have an UNLIMITED budget to begin with,& get pretty much whatever gear they want just handed to them in abundance,& their refined playing styles reduce the HORRID affects these FRETEATERS have.

When I hear someone state that they use Rotosound’s I immediately know how they play.

In conclusion if you have an UNLIMITED budget to spend,get ALL your gear handed to you for FREE,sport an Anal Retentive playing style,HAVE to sound JUST like somebody else,Chew your nails/clip them to the quick,or simply LACK technique,& are resistant to change,then by ALL means buy Rotosound’s/Fretbeaver’s.

You’ll make ALLOT of chaps happy!

There is ONLY one string i will play when it comes to Roundwounds,& it’s NOT Rotosound!!!

Chaz

P.S. If you dispute the fact that Rotosound’s are actually tubular grinders disguised,& marketed as Bass guitar strings then hand me your FAVORITE bass with Roto’s on it for half an hour.

That’s all the time it’ll take me to make a BELIEVER out of you!


:eek:

Quite frankly the IDOL,(sheehan,lee,entwistle etc...) worshipers don’t grasp the fact that these guys either play,or have played with a VERY light touch,


Geddy Lee, with a VERY light touch... :eyebrow:

Something here doesn't quite fit...

(When I used Rotosound funkmasters my frets didn't die like you say, and I had them on for more time than I should have... loved the feel so much that I was on denial on the fact that they were flatwound-dead... don't use them anymore since you can't find them easily around here)

I love my Rotosounds. I have been using Rotos for, oh, 20 years now. I use flatwounds, and see no fret problems. On my fretted, I use normal flats, but on my fretless, I use the tapewound. I posted in the what strings do you use thread if you want to see my exact setups.

Over the years I think I've had two bad strings from Rotosound - both Es, actually - but that's it. The strings sounded fine, but they snapped. And at .110, that's impressive! LOL It was around the same time (about 2 years ago), so I assume it was one bad batch. Still a pretty good track record considering for nearly 20 years I've had only two minor problems.

I've experimented once or twice with other strings, but the Rotos are a key component to my sound.

Methinks that someone who willingly writes 20 paragraphs in a poor attempt to slam a string brand (and bust those with short nails...what's that all about?) is perhaps not the best reference for string selection.

Wow, speaking of meat cleaver hands, if you can destroy your fretboard in 30 min with a set of strings you might wanna lay off the coffee and play with some touch. I'm getting my first pair of Rotosounds soon because I've been told they are very smooth strings.

I've been playing with Blue Steels on my main bass for 2 years now and those are some damn rough strings (had to use them because they were the only decent pair my music center has without ordering) and I haven't had any fret wear on my basses over countless hours of playing.

Are your frets made of nickel?

sotua,

Geddy does have a VERY light touch.I've seen him LIVE,& up close.For the bulk of the concert he played with ONLY his index finger.Try doing two,& a half hours of his material with a heavy hand,& three fingers,& your thumb taped to your palm you'll figure it out.

You can PUMP your sound up tremendeously in many ways,ESPECIALLY in the studio.

FenderP,

Of course you're not getting fretwear with Flatwounds,(regardless of the brand).Who said you would??? Uh,they're FLAT!

Luckydog,

Nope they're just POOR strings.Try a little Tabasco under your nails you'll stop chewing them,then you can play ANY string,& have BITE!

To the others,

My Moma tought me to Ignore the Ignorant... :D

Wow, Chaz...just...wow. I've read some ridiculous posts in my day, but that was impressive, really.

This will not be adequate, but let's see...

List of outrageous claims:
-Geddy Lee uses a light touch (not true - I too have seen him live and he really digs in on many numbers, especially during some of his fills)
-Billy Sheehan uses a light touch (nope)
-Rotosounds (or any strings) can destroy frets w/i 30 minutes (honestly man...ever think that might be a technique problem?)
-People who play rotosounds either have anal retentive technique, use them because their favorite artists do, or don't have fingernails
-Most musicians have different brands stamped on their gear to fool the masses
-One needs fingernails to get bite
-Musicians who choose to use rotos have an unlimited amount of money to buy gear

There are more, but I've got finals to study for. I don't like Rotos all that much, but most of what your arguments against them are pretty much garbage. Someone must have forgot to mention to you that if you ignore the ignorant long enough, you often become one of them.

P.S. Not that it would help your cause, but please, learn to type. Capitalizing words for no reason in no way strengthens your argument, and in some ways detracts from it (and you really, really can't afford that :smug: ).

hey, 'chaz'...smoke another rock, will ya? :scowl:
and TRY not to EMPHASIZE EVERY other WORD if it's NOT TOO much TROUBLE!
...and learn how to spell, tyvm! :p
now: do you really give a crap whether or not someone disagrees with yer gawddimmed string choice, or are you just another snarky whiner? how much did 'not-rotosound' pay you to badmouth (and badly write) them, you footsniffing, basement-dwelling, self-abusing, kumquat-wearing git?
i have hemorrhoids older, bigger and meaner than you!
(they also play better bass, IMHO...)
who died and declared you Elvis??? :eyebrow:
also...not all of us are gentlemen, regardless of gender...remember that....:D
so watch what comes outa yer piehole, there, spanky, or you will meet the MIGHTY WRATH OF MY GT-7/SWORD OF TERROR!!!

:eek: :eek: :eek:




p.s.: Jesus loves you.

What the crap is this supposed to be?


edit: yup, on further review this thread sucks. :)