I really need some help here guys, I feel like I'm in a rut :help:

For awhile I thought my bass playing was going pretty good, learning these new scales and transcribing now and then, ear training, lessons every week (now every-other week due to summer) and all that.

So the past couple of days I've been listening to a ton of music, now that I'm on vacation, lots of Phish, Dave Matthews, Zep and the like and really concentrating on bass parts, and I'm starting to realize a big problem in my playing.

It seems I've made some sort of subconcious connection with my fingers... they seem to just play. When I sit down with the bass, my fingers just play, using all this theory knowledge (like modes). Sounds good? It doesnt feel that way. I try to just sit down and think of something I want to play and nothing comes up, and when I do play its always based on this memory in my fingers. Sorry if this is hard to explain but its kind of difficult.

To sum up the problem, I think my playing is loosing creativity. I feel all of my practice revolves around theory, as its always seemed so important (friends, teacher, and forums seemed to impress me with this feeling). Its like my fingers are robotic or something, impressed with certain muscle memories (sometimes in a good way but often bad). I know my expectations are very high since the people I listen to have played for ages, but I have a feeling the way I'm growing up on bass won't end as I want it. I want to be able to jam myself, create lines on the fly and have emotion in music, I don't feel this is the way to achieve that :ninja:

:help:

I don't know where to begin to get my mind working again, and I don't see my teacher for 3 weeks due to the work schedule >< I *really* need some advice/opinions! I will check back tomorrow and, if needed, try to explain things better. Much thanks to those who reply.

Just to add a little extra, sometimes i do believe I can be creative however what I make is still created by fingers, not from my mind. I'm going to work hard at finding out how to change my playing but if anyone can help :)

This might sound counterintuitive, but I suggest taking some time away from your normal routine. I find that I am usually at my most creative when I haven't touched my bass in a couple days. If you are religious about a daily practice routine, take a couple days away from your bass entirely. Get focused in on other nonmusical interests for those couple days.

Seriously.

Are you able to play things by ear? I tend to do most of my basslines by imagining them in my head or humming them first, and then playing them. That way you bypass the whole theory part of your brain. Sort of.

I also find that if I write stuff from a more theoretical standpoint, I tend to think "I can't just play fifths!" or "that's too simple" and I end up adding other stuff just to make myself feel better about the bassline, rather than because it sounds good. There's loads of fantastic sounding basslines out there that are really theretically simple. Concieving things away from the instrument helps you to realise that.

I have had this same problem from time to time, and an idea I got from a teacher was to really simplify your playing- Pick a simple, slow bossa tune (for example) and try and achive perfect tone and rythmic feel. Listen to the basslines on on old A.C. Jobim record (like "Wave"). Very simple lines, anyone could play them, but to get that feel... it takes some work. But when you get it, it is very satisfying. Doing this helped me feel better about my own playing, and thus improved my attitude about practice.

well there are a number of things I think you can get into to help inspire you to play.

You mention listening to DMB, Phish, Zep etc.... are you open to listening to some other styles of music?

I'm an iTunes nut and I collect records in a big way. I have some 3500 CD's in digital format in my iTunes and my practice routine consists of playing those 34,500 songs on random. I'm not saying go out and buy 3500 albums right now, I've built up this sollection over 8 years or so, but it really does help to have as much different stuff in your music collection as possible. I have stuff from Chopin to Eruope, Creed to Baba Maal, John Coltrane to Slayer. there's something to be said for getting out of your comfort zone and getting away from what you tend to listen to the most. You'll find some of the most unusual things in new music that you're not used to and that it will inspire you in completely different ways.

Forget about what dorian mode you're in, what time signature, what key, who's on the record. Just try and get immersed in whatever it is you're listening to without over thinking it.

If you're into DMB, Zep and Phish etc... (of whom I am also a big fan) why don't you try listening to Squarepusher, Jonatha Brooke, Peter Gabriel and Pat Metheny.

Just four names off the top of my head, but they could provide you with some new source of inspiration with your bass.

Have you tried singing along with what you're playing? or singing songs and just playing the bass part to them? take some easier Sting songs and try and sing and play at the same time. He's a master of that, and it's something that often gets overlooked. it'll help you no end when you come to be looking for a gig and someone is looking for a bass player who can sing BV's. I've got loads more gigs cos I can sing and play too.

I love the point that was made earlier on about taking a break. I use this one all the time. I don't often have enough days off to take a serious break (which is great to be working!) unfortunately, but it can be great to come back to music after having time off.

I have (what me and mike stern call) some scrolls of knowledge. Very important to write things down in a music book. Be it jazz solos, rock bass lines, words from songs or some new musical idea you're working on, these books can be an incredible source of inspiration. I haven't written down 100's of solo, basslines, words and songs etc, all in several books over the past 10 years. whenever I have a mental block or get bored with what I'm doing, I go back to these books and always find some new source of inspiration.

When I give private lessons, I always burn a few things onto a CD to give to my students that they have never checked out before. Find a friend with some records you never heard about and try and get copies of them to search for new inspiration.

I hope this has been of some use to you, and anyone else who might have been reading for that matter.

Drop into the ask a pro section on talkbass, where they're in the process of making an "ask Janek" section. I'm always around to try and help take questions and come up with anything of any use to anyone.

Easy,

Janek

Thanks for the input guys, especially your post Janekbass. I'm starting to get out of this rut and I'll give your tips a try :)

Another thought - screw theory altogether and put new paterns into your fingers.
-------------------------3----4------------------
-------------3----4---1----2-----------------------
---3---4--1----2-------------------------------------
-1---2--------------------------------------------

use random finger patterns to build up stability, but also it will help to get specific pattrerns out of your head - aka get so much info into youe brain your mixing it all up - in a good way

-1-----4---2-------5--3-------6-----------------------------
--2--4-------3---5------4---6-----------------------------
---3-----------4----------5-----------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------

and - listen not only to learn what modes are being used but how they're being used. Mike Gordon is a big help on this because IMO is playing is very melodic whilst also structured

as a fan of jam music, you've probably heard tons of interviews about how these players improv. there is a certain discipline in forcing yourself to not rely on what you know will work...especially when playing with others. if you have certain bad habits of holding your hand in the same spot, start learning new ways to play the same melodies you like to play...it'll open up new venues for your fingers to find familiar notes. and you'll find that when you play your thirds in different spots, other notes are more accessible in different ways and your fingers will be able to explore those notes in different positions.

also, listening to and learning music that is unfamiliar is always a HUGE help in opening up our fingers to new things. not only different bands, but different styles of music should help.

www.asteriskband.com

Your are saying you are learning theory, scales, and modes, but I would guess you are just learning finger patterns and not taking the time to try and make music with them. It doesn't take long to learn a mode fingering, but it takes time to make music with it.

I learn a new scale or mode I can get the fingerng down in a few minutes or less depending on how similar it is to others that I know. First hint relate new material to things your already know. Then I will spend anywhere from a few minutes to days trying to figure out how I can use the new scale/mode. I may just play a chord on my bass that the scale/mode should work with, then start playing to hear what it sound like. A looper pedal coming in handy for this. Then I will look for arpeggios within the scale/mode and play those against the chord. Continue using the other scale/mode tones as passing tones. Then play patterns with the scale/mode and listen for cool sounds. Take licks from similar scales/modes and alter as necessary to use the new scale/mode and see if they still sound good to me. All this time I'm focusing on hearing the sound of the scale/mode and which notes give it, its idenity. This can continues if I like the scale/mode and see how it works for creating bass lines. A scale/mode might work well for soloing and not for creating bass lines. Last I start working with the scale/mode in context with other chords/scales.

Bottom line you need to take the theory you learn and practice making music with it. Just learning a mode and the chord its suppose to work with and running up and down a few times would get discouraging after awhile.

Just to add a little extra, sometimes i do believe I can be creative however what I make is still created by fingers, not from my mind. I'm going to work hard at finding out how to change my playing but if anyone can help :)

How much gigging do you do? Who do you play with? What's their level of skill?

If you're not in involved in the process of making music with others over a range of different styles your playing will remain limited.

Get Kenny Werner's book 'Effortless Mastery' - tons of useful information...

Creativity seems to come and go in phases. If you're not creative at the moment, don't worry, it will come back.

Thanks for more tips guys, I'm staring to get out of this rut and explore new things :hyper:

To Phil Smith- I play with someone usually once a week, whos been playing for quite awhile and is pretty good (guitar). I can keep up with him but I still feel stale when I play. Theres certain fingers I use too much. I guess my original post was a little too extreme but I still feel like I need alot of work. When I get into college I hope to play with more people and hopefully get into a band.

I'll look up the "Effortless Mastery" book as well, Ive been thinking of getting a good book to help too, thanks.

come to think of it...
i find the best way to change the way i play is to play with someone new. i've broken a lot of ground as a player by answering an add looking for a bassist. especially if it is a musical style i'm not used to playing (for me, answering a metal add)

listen to something you wouldnt normally listen to
like headhunters or something way out there...try and play whatever the horn or the keyboards or the drums are playing

emulate that through your bass

it will help you get out of a rut, i find that looking at how other instruments play notes helps me not to play the same notes over and over

headhunters is a SICK album!!! great for groovin'. if you don't own this album, pick it up...it'll definitely get you out of a rut. it's a herbie hanckock album for those who don't know. i'd also recommend checking out the john scofield album, that's what i say...

maceo parker's southern exposure is the cure for missing the groove.

cosmicevan ever heard scofields uberjam?

Try listening to other instruments apart from the bass, eg whats the brass section playing in this song?, why did the guitarist choose those notes to play?..Whats the drum pattern?..whats the singer singing and why did he pick that melody....then transcribe these lines to your bass, this is not to say that you copy them but use them as a starting point to create something else...but always remeber the old adage..sometimes less is more...and at the end of the day your a bassist and 90% of the time our job is to hold down the low end and keep the whole thing together..(if this means pumping roots then so be it)

As the old saying goes "sometimes less is more":)

Try using different rhythms in your practice. Very soon,you'll have tons of new riffs coming out.

SB

cosmicevan ever heard scofields uberjam?
all scofield stuff is worthy of checking out. i'm very excited that he is doing another album and tour with mmw!!!

When I feel like I'm losing creativity to theory, I put the bass down. I'll listen to a bassless track of what I'm working on, or, if at a practice, I'll have the other guys play it without me a couple of times. I listen for a bassline to play in my head while listening and then try to find the notes and patterns on the bass later. Playing unison lines with a guitar solo or vocal is always a good touch.
That's the drawback to, as some say, "not thinking when you play". Sitting-at-home-with-a-metronome muscle memory will take over. That's great for a jam or sitting in on unfamiliar songs, but if you're trying to write a specific bassline for a specific song, it can sound robotic.

My present and previous instructors are advocates of singing. If you can sing it you can play it !!!! I even joined a local Barbershop chorus and spend wednesday nites singing with 24 other guys and it's all 4 part harmony. Really has helped my ear and what comes out of my fingers.

all scofield stuff is worthy of checking out.

Reminds me of an interview with Scofield that I read years ago. He talked about practicing: when he learns a new scale, for example, he slowly figures out the notes, and then starts improvising with the new material right away. He said he 'practices playing inspired'.

Your fingers doing their thing is just you drawing from your "bag o' licks." It just sounds like your bag is not very deep yet. I'm in a similar situation, and have been for awhile. The solution is to learn new tunes. Latch on to some bass players that you like, and learn all their stuff. Add their licks to your bag, and you'll have stuff to draw from.

You can always take it up a notch when you understand how a few bass players work. Take a song by any artist and change the bass line to be in the style of another bass player. Or, when you are comfortable with your own signature style, change it to what you would play.

How much gigging do you do? Who do you play with? What's their level of skill?

If you're not in involved in the process of making music with others over a range of different styles your playing will remain limited.


I agree - I would recommend joining a band if you're not in one already, or heading to your nearest jam session and playing with some new people. I find a lot depends on the level of ability of your drummer; they are particularly good to bounce ideas off for rhythmic and groove aspects, and for note-related stuff (melody, harmony etc) kboard and guitar players are good. If you're in an originals band it helps too as you have a lot less constraints on what you can play. Also maybe try some different sounds - play with effects that are not normally assosciated with the bass and see what you can come up with...
One last thing - try just writing a simplish groove and record it; then try and build up other parts by playing at different parts of the neck, then some rhythmic effects (damn the word "rhythmic" is hard to type!)
good luck :)
danx

Man if there's one thing I really understand it's getting stuck in a rut. There are some good things to try though.

From Murf:
Try listening to other instruments apart from the bass, eg whats the brass section playing in this song?, why did the guitarist choose those notes to play?..Whats the drum pattern?..whats the singer singing and why did he pick that melody....then transcribe these lines to your bass

+100, really good advice

Do you have a backup "beater" bass? If not, get another instrument cheap enough that you wouldn't care if it were scratched or broken, and let's try some things...

Altered Tunings - intentionally tune some of your strings up or down a step or too. You won't be able to play with finger memory anymore. Find a groove, record it, and then learn to play it in regular tuning.
Weird strings/ few strings -If you use 45-105 roundwounds all the time, try something really light like Victor W. uses (40-95). Try flatwounds, or nylon tapewounds. Try pulling off all but 2 strings like The Presidents of the US
Treatments -Stick some rubber foam under the bridge, wrap little paper clip rings around your strings or go all out and pull off the saddles and replace them with a piece of wood carved like a sitar bridge.


Note that I don't/wouldn't do any of this live, but it makes for an interesting afternoon and will definitely get you thinking of other musical ideas.