Hi Janek!

This will be a bit long. ;)

I begin every practice session with playing scales. I pick a key and play (using 3 notes per string) play from the lowest note available on the bass up to the highest (and back), often with changing directions when reaching the end of one position (up, position change, down).

I will do the same with groups of notes (eg groups of 5 or 6) and intervals (play the scales in 4ths) - all the time singing while playing. I'll advance the tempo when I've played up and down the neck without a single mistake (even without "stumbling" for a millisecond).

Recently it occured to me that I'm not really sure what I'm doing this for. After the initial hurdle of learning the fingerings for each scale/mode/position I'm not sure how it has helped my playing.

Even with soloing, it's not important to know what you're playing - you shouldn't be thinking about that anyway! All that counts is hearing a line in your head and being able to translate it to the instrument. And everyone (including you) gives the advice that this ability will is best trained by transcribing.

So by now (after 2 1/2 years of doing that routine), practicing scales seems like a waste of time to me. Going through my scale routine will take me about an hour.

Should I split up my program, ie play "normal" one day, in intervals the next and in groups the day after that?

How will I get the most out of scales in a condensed manner?

Thanks for your input!

-Christoph

Christoph,

try taking just three excercises and using them for about 15 minutes a day.

I can't tell where your technique is at as I haven't heard you play. But after 2 1/2 years of shedding that hard I'm sure you have a good grasp of technique.

It becomes more of a maintanence job after a certain amount of time. I spent about 6 years working hard every day on tequnique. I now find myself just making adjustmens here and there and working on anything that I find I can't play with ease.

15mins a day to warm up and check out your chops should keep you well in shape. This is different for everyone though. It's what you feel comfortable with.

What I will stress is....

Dont' let your technique get in your way. There are many bass players and musicians in general that have massive amounts of techniqe, but nothing to say musically. It's like being able to talk really loud, but only having 20 words in your vocabulary, it will be very difficult to talk like this, and to listen to.

Your technique, as you pointed out, is to enable to convey musical ideas without hinderence. You will reach a point where the technique is in the subconcious and you will never think about it again. this is when the ideas are flowing and emotions are pouring in your work.

Always transcribe!!! there's never a limit, your'e never too old, and you can always learn something new. i learn something new every day, it's what keeps me feeling young and humble. and when the time comes that you're not humbled by certain things, look for things that do humble you. Because they're out there and are a great way to stay realistic about music and to be pushed further.

Easy,

Janek

I'll still play scales and arpeggios when I practice electric bass, but I'm not really thinking about the notes that I"m playing; I'm concentrating on maintaining a consistent left hand postion, and working on my right hand. For example, I might play up and down the neck staccato, then legato, then somewhere in between, but choosing what I want the end result to sound like and working on teh consistency of my right hand plucking. I'll also work on accuracy between my left and right hand (you know, making sure that I put my left hand fingers down and lift them up at exactly the same time as I pluck the notes with my right hand). Actually, doing this with ascending and descending chromatic scales makes inaccuracies more apparent than simply playing diatonic scales.

I also find it instructive from time to time to work on modal scales - sure, we all know that dorian is simply playing a major scale starting on the second note of the scale (and so on for all the natural modes), but for some reason, it really opens my ears to run through all of the modes while starting on the same note - for example, play a diatonic C scale, then play a C dorian (essentially, moving to the key of B flat), and then starting on a C in A flat, then G, then F, and so on... By doing this rather than simply playing in C and starting on different notes, it makes me think - and that's always a good thing. And it makes me think harder when I carry that exercize into arpeggieated scales...

Jeez, I had to think so hard trying to verbalize what I do that I think I need a cup of coffee.... :)

Dave,

I think those are all great excercises. I like the one about starting all the modes from the same starting note.

I really try and keep away from thinking about that stuff as much as possible these days. To create lines and melodies from the heart, it's very important to increase your vocabulary through transcription. This leads immediately to helping phrasing, time and sound as well as just theory of harmony. Theory of harmony is important, but it is pretty finite. There are these 12 notes (in conventional tonal harmony) and we can all work out the relationship of those 12 notes within moving harmony and melody. To get the most juice out of those notes, transcription and developement of your own rhythmic, harmonic and compositional ideas is key.

Easy,

Janek

thanks, janek!

today i condensed my scales program and it definitely freed up schedule. i felt i had more time to work on musically important things. we'll see how it turns out.

-christoph

I really try and keep away from thinking about that stuff as much as possible these days. To create lines and melodies from the heart, it's very important to increase your vocabulary through transcription. This leads immediately to helping phrasing, time and sound as well as just theory of harmony. Theory of harmony is important, but it is pretty finite. There are these 12 notes (in conventional tonal harmony) and we can all work out the relationship of those 12 notes within moving harmony and melody. To get the most juice out of those notes, transcription and developement of your own rhythmic, harmonic and compositional ideas is key.



Hey, Janek!
I absolutely agree that once you're actually playing, it's too late to be thinking about theory; I do those types of exercises specifically (especially the modal exercises) specifically to help reinforce muscle memory. You guys might be able to actually make it up as you go along, but in situations - for instance, in a solo where where I might choose to move to a register an octave or two higher in a connected sort of way, I'm not thinking fast enough to choose each note; I fall back on patterns. That way, instead of trying to choose each of the 24 potential notes to play between point A and point B, I'm thinking of groupings of notes that make sense at the time. By working out (and practicing) these things, it allows me to think on a wee bit higher plane while I'm soloing - more about what I want to play than how I'm gonna play it.

That's not to say that I'm any good at it, of course.... :)

back in the 17th century when the whole concept of "music theory" was first being dreamed up, music theory was more of a codification of what sounded good, and what sounded good was based on tradition -- it wasn't just an arbitrary set of rules.

You have to think of it the same way today. Music theory is a framework which allows you to intellectualize. You can analyze and describe music using the theory, but in the end the theory is just a language and set of guidelines to understand why what you hear works. You've got to hear it first, which involves developing a good ear and listening to a lot of music in the style you'd like to work in.

Very well put guys.

In a nutshell, "Theory follows practice".

Scales and Arpeggios are great ear training and they teach your fingers the fingerboard but transcribing brings you to the point of it all....the music. IME anyway.:bassist:

Christoph,

try taking just three excercises and using them for about 15 minutes a day.

I can't tell where your technique is at as I haven't heard you play. But after 2 1/2 years of shedding that hard I'm sure you have a good grasp of technique.

It becomes more of a maintanence job after a certain amount of time. I spent about 6 years working hard every day on tequnique. I now find myself just making adjustmens here and there and working on anything that I find I can't play with ease.

15mins a day to warm up and check out your chops should keep you well in shape. This is different for everyone though. It's what you feel comfortable with.

What I will stress is....

Dont' let your technique get in your way. There are many bass players and musicians in general that have massive amounts of techniqe, but nothing to say musically. It's like being able to talk really loud, but only having 20 words in your vocabulary, it will be very difficult to talk like this, and to listen to.

Your technique, as you pointed out, is to enable to convey musical ideas without hinderence. You will reach a point where the technique is in the subconcious and you will never think about it again. this is when the ideas are flowing and emotions are pouring in your work.

Always transcribe!!! there's never a limit, your'e never too old, and you can always learn something new. i learn something new every day, it's what keeps me feeling young and humble. and when the time comes that you're not humbled by certain things, look for things that do humble you. Because they're out there and are a great way to stay realistic about music and to be pushed further.

Easy,

Janek

Janek,

What is your process for transcribing what music do you most often transcribe?

Thanks!

Andro

Andro,

There's no real structured process to it.

I hear something I like, and start to get into it as much as I can. I'll listen to a song, solo, set of changes etc.. over and over again, and get it in my head so it's familiar.

I'll do a lot of transcription at the piano so I'm working on my piano chops while learning some new stuff. Then disect it, and take it to the bass and work on aspects of the solo or song that I dig.

When I first started out I would transcribe entire solos and look at the shape and structure of the solo as a whole, as well as analyzing the notes and harmony. I'm more into taking short phrases when it omes to transcribing these days. Finding something I like, and then taking it somewhere completely different.

I do still transcribe entire solos because of what they represent as a whole, and because I still love to get inside someone else's head and look into what they're thinking about when shapoing a solo.

Recent things I've transcribed include:

Chris Potter - playing solo on all the things you are on a clinic in europe

Steve Grossman - a few of the things from "some shapes to come"

Steve Vai - "the riddle" and "the animal" from Passion and Warfare.

Cannonball adderly - solo on "Cobwebb" from "the emmarcy small group sessions"

Pat metheny - solo on "tears inside" from "rejoicing" with Charlie Haden and Billy Higgins. WICKED ALBUM!

tons of stuff really. it's a never ending process for me.

Easy,

Janek

Andro,

There's no real structured process to it.

I hear something I like, and start to get into it as much as I can. I'll listen to a song, solo, set of changes etc.. over and over again, and get it in my head so it's familiar.

I'll do a lot of transcription at the piano so I'm working on my piano chops while learning some new stuff. Then disect it, and take it to the bass and work on aspects of the solo or song that I dig.

When I first started out I would transcribe entire solos and look at the shape and structure of the solo as a whole, as well as analyzing the notes and harmony. I'm more into taking short phrases when it omes to transcribing these days. Finding something I like, and then taking it somewhere completely different.

I do still transcribe entire solos because of what they represent as a whole, and because I still love to get inside someone else's head and look into what they're thinking about when shapoing a solo.

Recent things I've transcribed include:

Chris Potter - playing solo on all the things you are on a clinic in europe

Steve Grossman - a few of the things from "some shapes to come"

Steve Vai - "the riddle" and "the animal" from Passion and Warfare.

Cannonball adderly - solo on "Cobwebb" from "the emmarcy small group sessions"

Pat metheny - solo on "tears inside" from "rejoicing" with Charlie Haden and Billy Higgins. WICKED ALBUM!

tons of stuff really. it's a never ending process for me.

Easy,

Janek

Thanks!

Are you transcribing from tape, cd? Do you slow it down or just repeat as necessary?

Best,

Andro

NO SLOWING DOWN!!......

he hehehe.

but seriously, no slowing down. and did I mention? no slowing down?

I'm doing it from mp3, just cos I have my entire record collection digitized in the computer. Before I had a computer I did the exact same thing with CD's and Cassette tapes.

but just remember.


NO SLOWING DOWN!!!

it's just better for you in the long run if you can start to internalize that stuff and hear everything without slowing it down.

Easy,

Janek

Hi janek. Ive just started doing transcriptions and to get into it Ive been transcribing heads of tunes that arent in the real book. Im not slowing anything down and can get the notes without much of a problem. My thing is it takes a while to get all the rythms right. Any advice for working on that? Also would you say working on solos does a lot more than heads? My next piece of work will probably be a Charnett Moffett solo or Miles just to see how much of a difference there is.

Clay,

are you an acoustic bass player? what are you looking for from your transcription?

if you're looking ideas to help you solo through changes, I wouldn't transcribe a solo of Charnett's. Do the miles one for sure.

Learning the melody to a song is essential and I can't believe I haven't talked about that before in these threads.

The melody is the main basis upon which you develop your solo. It's also the thing that you use to help show people where you are in a song if you, or any other member of the band gets lost on the changes.

Rhythmic notation just comes with practice. You should study melodies that are already written down and listen to the source whilst reading along with the melody on the page in front of you. You'll start to recognize fammiliar rhythmic phrases that occur often, and slowly your written rhythmic repotoire will grow.

Easy,

Janek

Hey Janek,

Great thread. You mentioned to not slow down when transcribing. What about people that use the MK-II CD trainer to learn stuff? I'm particularly thinking of Lee Sklar because he endorses it. You layed the benefits of not slowing down in the long run, but what about extremely complex parts that you really want to nail note for note?

well if you really want to nail something note for note, you'll work hard on your ear and on your chops to get there.

There was no slowing stuff down in the days or charlie parker and dizzy. they pioneered that stuff from scratch. So the least amount of respect we can pay the music is to work hard enough on our ability to be able to transcribe without slowing it down.

There really is only long term when you're pursuing this. The short term is the same old "easy answer", and "quick fix" situation that a lot of people ask me about. Students and audience members on clinics often ask what the answer is, expecting it to be some magical phrase I tell them that will change their playing forever. It's not. It's long term hard work, and dedication and respect to the music. I don't want to sound harsh about it, but I do feel very strongly about this subject.

Easy,

Janek

Clay,

are you an acoustic bass player? what are you looking for from your transcription?

if you're looking ideas to help you solo through changes, I wouldn't transcribe a solo of Charnett's. Do the miles one for sure.

Learning the melody to a song is essential and I can't believe I haven't talked about that before in these threads.

The melody is the main basis upon which you develop your solo. It's also the thing that you use to help show people where you are in a song if you, or any other member of the band gets lost on the changes.

Rhythmic notation just comes with practice. You should study melodies that are already written down and listen to the source whilst reading along with the melody on the page in front of you. You'll start to recognize fammiliar rhythmic phrases that occur often, and slowly your written rhythmic repotoire will grow.

Easy,

Janek

I play upright and electric though lately Ive been pretty much just playing upright. May I ask why you say to do a Miles solo instead of Charnetts? I would certainley say Miles is much more melodic and probably all around better at soloing but it seems like no matter who you transcribe you can take ideas and put more work into your ear right? Anyways there are quite a few miles solos that I think I should be able to get fairly quickly including the Freddie Freeloader one you suggested in another post. Ive also been digging Kenny Garrett lately. Have you done any transcriptions of his stuff?

well the first thing I asked you was "what are you looking for from transcribing?"

if you're looking for a direction in melodic soloing then you're more likely to find in a miles solo over a charnett solo.

I've worked on Kenny Garrett quite a bit. I transcribed most of the stuff from Pursuence with Metheny. I did all the sax and guitar solos from that album. As well as some live stuff that I got hold of. Kenny is great for some modern sounding stuff but.......

Check out Steve Grossman, Coltrane, Eric Dolphy etc..... go back to where that stuff was the most burning.

Complete Africa Brass sessions

Shapes of things to come

Elvin jones - Live at the lighthouse



Easy,

Janek

Check out Steve Grossman, Coltrane, Eric Dolphy etc..... go back to where that stuff was the most burning.

Complete Africa Brass sessions

Shapes of things to come

Elvin jones - Live at the lighthouse



Easy,

Janek

Im working on Dexter Gordon's interpretation of the head and his solo on Scrapple From The Apple off of Our Man In Paris. Its fairly simple melodically so I figure itll be a good place to start.

Also Ive been trying to write for a while with some very unhip results. Any tips for getting away from the "bass player mentality" and coming up with better melodies?

Clay,

one of the best ways of coming up with more melodic ideas is to develop more of a melodic sense in your playing. That will in turn develope your sense of melody when you're writing. Also analyze songs and writing that you like, and check out what functions certain melody notes are creating against the chords they're written over. Understanding a composition that is out there on record already will help you build up a palet of colours to write your own songs with. Whatever you do don't force anything. Let melodies come to you rather than trying to force them into chord changes.

One of the most important parts of composition developement is form. Analyze the form of songs from "Sweet Home Alabama", to "moments Notice". Understand verses, choruses and bridges. Understand through-composing, motivic developement, and re-harmonization within form as compositional tools. Try also basing your own compositional ideas such as melody and harmony upon the form of another song. Take the form of a yellowjackets song for instance, and then apply new changes and melody to it to start understanding form from someone else in the context of your own music. Hopefully it'll be something inspirational enough to help you create your own form and make changes to what it is you're trying to emulate.

Easy,

Janek

well if you really want to nail something note for note, you'll work hard on your ear and on your chops to get there.

There was no slowing stuff down in the days or charlie parker and dizzy. they pioneered that stuff from scratch. So the least amount of respect we can pay the music is to work hard enough on our ability to be able to transcribe without slowing it down.

Easy,

Janek

This is an interesting thread. I've been figuring out a number of classics note for note (most recently the Peterson/Brown/Thigpen version of OP's "Tricrotism") but I haven't actually started writing them down.

Regarding slowing things down to learn them: I'm not sure when the 16 RPM record player came into being, but I do remember it being a common speed to find on turntables well into the 70s. Many of the home/semi pro reel-to-reel tape machines I've seen from the 50s-70s had adjustable speeds. I've definitely read interviews with jazz greats who said they slowed down records/tapes to learn parts. I don't think slow-speed learning is cheating, but I also don't think it will help you develop the split-second real-time skills you need on the bandstand.

... I don't think slow-speed learning is cheating, but I also don't think it will help you develop the split-second real-time skills you need on the bandstand.

Real time skills on the bandstand come from real time playing on the bandstand, be it reading, improvising from charts or just making stuff up in the moment.

There really is only long term when you're pursuing this. The short term is the same old "easy answer", and "quick fix" situation that a lot of people ask me about. Students and audience members on clinics often ask what the answer is, expecting it to be some magical phrase I tell them that will change their playing forever. It's not. It's long term hard work, and dedication and respect to the music. I don't want to sound harsh about it, but I do feel very strongly about this subject.

Are you saying that a hypnotist can't plant a suggestion in my head for great playing and that will raise my level of play up to the stratosphere? :D I'm seriously discouraged now! :D

If it were easy, everyone would be doing it. Keep keeping it real Janek.

Clay,

one of the best ways of coming up with more melodic ideas is to develop more of a melodic sense in your playing.

And not to put too fune a point on it, one of the best ways to develop more of a melodic sense in your playing is to play melodies. While quoting other songs during your solos can be both hackneyed and trite (if done wrong, or too often), knowing the melodies to a zillion tunes - how they're put together, how they relate to the underlying harmonic structure, how they can be re-worked to fit with a different harmonic or rhythmic stucture - all of these are good things.

Parker did it, Coltrane did it, there's no reason you can't.

The work that opened my eyes to a lot of the possibilities of harmonic and metric displacement of well known melodies was not a jazz tune - it was Peter Schikele's "Eine Kleine Nichtmusik" from "A Portrait of P.D.Q Bach"; no musician's CD collection would be complete without it. :hyper: