I was just at a jazz camp and the director for my ensemble had us play music he had composed. It was all right for the most part, just standard 12 bar blues. In the music he had written out, he had a lot of A naturals during the Bb7 chords. I asked him about it and he said they added "flavor", but told all the other instruments to avoid the A natural. The Ab felt a lot better, since it's in the chord... the A natural just sounded bad.

Is it common to hit the Major 7 on a dominant 7 chord? Like I said... it sounded really bad to me.

When you find the "7" suffix alone, it means that it's a major chord with a flattened seventh. Hence, B7 is spelled B-D#-F#-A natural. For a major seventh chord, the suffix is "Maj7" or "M7" or a triangle. Ab (it should be called G#) isn't present in a B7 chord, but you can find it in the B mixolydian scale: B-C#-D#-E-F#-G#-A-B.

Hope this helps.

You can do this to emphasize the next chord change. So if the next change was Eb, the less stable tones will 'bring it out'. that might explain the "sounds bad" bit.

When you find the "7" suffix alone, it means that it's a major chord with a flattened seventh. Hence, B7 is spelled B-D#-F#-A natural. For a major seventh chord, the suffix is "Maj7" or "M7" or a triangle. Ab (it should be called G#) isn't present in a B7 chord, but you can find it in the B mixolydian scale: B-C#-D#-E-F#-G#-A-B.

Hope this helps.

Haha, I knew this. I'm asking if it's ok to play a Maj 7 in a regular 7 chord.

I was just at a jazz camp and the director for my ensemble had us play music he had composed. It was all right for the most part, just standard 12 bar blues. In the music he had written out, he had a lot of A naturals during the B7 chords. I asked him about it and he said they added "flavor", but told all the other instruments to avoid the A natural. The Ab felt a lot better, since it's in the chord... the A natural just sounded bad.

Is it common to hit the Major 7 on a dominant 7 chord? Like I said... it sounded really bad to me.

Visirale,
A B7 chord is spelled: B D# F# A
A B7 Maj.7 is spelled: B D# F# A#

The A natural is the 7th in the B7 chord. In other word, it is in the chord. It probably did sound a little odd; especially if you were sitting on it.

The Ab/G# that sounded better to you is the 6th degree of the B Mixolydian mode. By playing G# in the bass, you were probably hearing the chord as: G# B D# F# (with no A, since you were the only one that was supposed to be playing it). You were hearing a G#m7 chord.

What key was the tune in?

Joe

Oh, and for reference, I meant Bb, not B.

Oh, and for reference, I meant Bb, not B.

:eyebrow:

:eyebrow:
Hahahha, I know, it makes a big difference. I really should proof read my posts when they deal with music theory.

I'm sorry :).

I'm asking if it's ok to play a Maj 7 in a regular 7 chord.
Oh, and for reference, I meant Bb, not B.

OK. That's different. I don't think it will sound fine unless you use it as a quick passing note to reach the fundamental (Ab-A natural-Bb).

I was just at a jazz camp and the director for my ensemble had us play music he had composed. It was all right for the most part, just standard 12 bar blues. In the music he had written out, he had a lot of A naturals during the Bb7 chords. I asked him about it and he said they added "flavor", but told all the other instruments to avoid the A natural. The Ab felt a lot better, since it's in the chord... the A natural just sounded bad.

Is it common to hit the Major 7 on a dominant 7 chord? Like I said... it sounded really bad to me.

No, it's NOT common to play the Major 7 on a dominant 7 chord...

It would add "flavour", yes it could be used as a color tone....a Highly Dissonant colour tone...in a Bb7 chord, the A natural would clash violently with Ab (unless there's a melodic sequence like Ab-A-Bb )

...this is a High School band, right?
My guess is that he director effed up and was trying to not let on :hmm:


..

He's has played with some very big groups, most noteworthy being the tempations. It was a highschool band but he was a guess director... god the CD is going to sound awful. He treated me like an idiot when I asked why he had the bass hitting the major 7s in a dominan chord.

Haha, he said he'd beat me if I played the regular 7.

In traditional blues music, 3rd, 5th, and 7th tones are microtonally 'bent'. perhaps that's the type of effect the director was trying to acheive?

Hmmmm. :hmm: Let me think this one out...

Bb7 chord: Bb D F Ab

The director wants an A in the bass while the group plays a Bb7 chord, right?

Now the chord is spelled: A / Bb D F Ab

Yeah, that would sound a bit strange. I'm not sure how to make sense out of that. I guess we could do some enharmonic spellings and try some different voicings...

Did other people in the group play the Ab? If not, perhaps the B Maj.7 chord was a reharminization.

Another thought is that the director made a mistake and was trying to save face.

Joe

I don't know if I stressed this enough, but this was a piece that the director composed and has had published... so he was a bit anal about it.

Yeah it sounded super weird... and like I said, a tenor sax player asked him the same question that I did and he was like "No, you need to stay on the Ab. The bass can get away with playing the A natural, but in the higher registers it doesn't work."

This could be a test to see if you'll do what you're told. He's the director and worked for the Tempations, and you basicly know nothing. So I don't blame him for getting "anal". I wouldn't argue (with him) about it to much. Just do what he wants, and move on. It really doesn't matter if it sounds bad to you, or if you don't like it. It could be that you would do things differently if you were in he's position.

Yeah it sounded super weird... and like I said, a tenor sax player asked him the same question that I did and he was like "No, you need to stay on the Ab. The bass can get away with playing the A natural, but in the higher registers it doesn't work."


If anything, it would be the opposite. If you have a steady dominant foundation on the tonic, you can really just go off on any note melodically and make it work, even an A on a Bb7. However, you really can't play an A in the bass, unless its part of a chromaticism in a walking line, which is entirely possible. Context is everything.

It's also in the bebop scale. So for the Bb7 chord the bebop scale would be: Bb C D Eb F G Ab A Bb

The bass can get away with playing the A natural, but in the higher registers it doesn't work."

If the bass is completely inaudible in the mix, yeah. I could see getting away with A natural if it was a passing tone and not on a beat...

It's also in the bebop scale. So for the Bb7 chord the bebop scale would be: Bb C D Eb F G Ab A Bb

True, but isn't it used as more of a passing tone? I like the post that "context is everything". Harmony is functional. What key was the tune in?

Joe

True, but isn't it used as more of a passing tone? I like the post that "context is everything". Harmony is functional. What key was the tune in?

Joe

Sure. But I guess every note that is in b/w where you are and the target note is a passing tone <G>.

The A in the Bb bebop scale isn't meant to be emphasized so just hanging on that note doesn't usually work (but can depending on the music).

As mentioned above, the context is the key. If the A is leading to Bb then I don't see a problem as it's purely a chromatic approach note.

If the bass rests on the A then that will create a dissonance, but that maybe what the composer wants. Any of the 12 notes work if you want them to :)

Cheers,
Alun

I like the idea that 'you must go with your ears' when composing. Man, maybe your music director wanted dissonance?

And what's the name of the song 'Stormy Ears Blues'?

As mentioned above, the context is the key. If the A is leading to Bb then I don't see a problem as it's purely a chromatic approach note.

If the bass rests on the A then that will create a dissonance, but that maybe what the composer wants. Any of the 12 notes work if you want them to :)

Cheers,
Alun

+1

Any sound clip of the song or maybe the title? Sounds interesting.

Which beat is A on? Which note follows it?

I totally agree with with the last couple of replies. The "A" is a passing tone in the Bb7 chord and is the 7th degree of Bb major call the "sensible" in french(I don't know the exact word in english,sorry). We're talking about a Blues in Bb Major here. So, it is natural to play in the bass a descending line like Bb-A-G-F from time to time to reenforce the sound of a Major tonality or a line like F-G-A-C-Bb. So,may be you can give us an example of the written line here.

Hope this will help,

SB

I love adding harmonic tension in my playing, especially in my solos (especially on my solos on modal tunes ;) ).

However, altering chords, implieing different chords/tones, and just playing outside the changes and general is a great way to up your playing tools but be warned, creating dissonance is a fragile technique because it can easily be too harsh to the point where its just bad however, if you can pull it off then it really showcases you as a musician, people are often impressed, and hot girls love altered harmony haha (not really :bawl: )

I suggest the Jazz Theory Book by Mark Levine, it will explain all of this and a billion times more. It's a great read.