Are these the same? I see them written both ways

C7sus & C7sus4
Dsus & Dsus4

.....and if that's the case does a Dsus2 have to be written as a Dsus2 as to not confuse it with a Dsus4 (Dsus)?

:hiding:

Thanks.

sus = sus4 <> sus2

Hmmm...

How 'bout

D-7/G or Fmaj7/G

And, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't sus2 an inversion of a sus4 chord?

sus = sus4 <> sus2

I'm not sure what is meant by this ^ ????? :eyebrow:

C7sus & C7sus4

Although the 2 can be suspended (Csus2, for example), it is generally accepted that C7sus is the same as C7sus4...that is to say C-F-G-Bb

Dsus2 have to be written as a Dsus2 as to not confuse it with a Dsus4 (Dsus)?

Yes; Dsus2 being D-E-A. Which leads us to:

And, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't sus2 an inversion of a sus4 chord?

Yup. Dsus2 would be Asus4, but with the D in the bass. Usually sus2 chords are seen in guitar-oriented music.

D-7/G or Fmaj7/G

The first would have the D and no E, the second the E and no D.

Neither one is technically a "sus" chord, but they function as a sus chord.

sus = sus4 <> sus2

Well put, fellow BASIC programmer.

Personally I use sus4 and sus2. However, in my experience, I've seen Csus = Csus4 and C2 = Csus2. C2 also can mean C (add2). Either way, it doesn't really make a difference, it's more of a preference. Nevertheless, I prefer to use sus2 and sus4 because it's more verbose and you know exactly what to play.

I've seen Csus = Csus4 and C2 = Csus2. C2 also can mean C (add2). Either way, it doesn't really make a difference, it's more of a preference.

Not quite. A sus chord will not have a minor or a major third.
Cadd2 will be a C triad with an added 2 (actually add 9, but since it's the same note it's OK)

So, Cadd2 = C E G + D

Csus2 has no third.

Csus2 = C D G

A lot of contemporary guitarist/songwriters love these chords because they're so harmonically ambiguous, you're not "commited" as much harmonically.

Sus chords are a tricky chord to deal with, and really depend on the type of music you're playing.

If it's rock/pop, then yes, I'd voice a Dsus as: D, G, A (a sus4)

But if it's jazz then voice the Dsus as a Cmaj7/D

If it's gospel, a lot of times you'll hear a Dsus as a Gmaj/D

And with some more fusion stuff, you'd voice the Dsus as: D, G, C

All very different sounds depending on the style of music.

The reason you usually don't play the 3rd in sus chords is because it can be ambiguous whether it's a minor 3rd or major 3rd. However, I have played charts which have sus(add maj3), which are very nice-sounding chords.

EDIT: Note "voice", not "spelling." Voicings have to do with the practical application of such chords, while the spelling of chords has to do with their literal composition in music theory.

I kind of agree with what you are saying in the sense that (for example) while Cmaj7/D will accomplish the same thing as D7sus; it is not the same chord at all. In fact, if I were writing a chart and I wanted D7sus, and a keyboardist played that chord (Cmaj7/D), I would absolutely stop him (regardless of style) and tell him I wanted D7sus. I want the A, I don't want the B. If I want Cmaj7/D, I'll write it that way. To be sure, available scale tones are more-or-less identical; the general practice being to treat sus as mixolydian, but you could also easily treat it as dorian or even a melodic minor mode; off the sus 4. That is the ambiguity I was speaking of. D7sus will give you that ambiguity; Cmaj7/D will not.

Quick note: theoretically, mix no 3rd is the appropriate scale for a sus chord.

Marcus Willett I understand where you're coming from, but you hear people replacing those sus chords with those examples I gave in my last post all the time. For example, I picked up the gospel Gmaj/D to voice a sus chord from Russ Ferrante. A lot of jazz keyboardists will even TEACH sus chords (in a jazz context) as Cmaj7/D, for example.

Mind you, I'm talking about jazz charts. It depends on the musical context which kind of sus chord voicing you use, and how loose of an interpretation you can have on the voicings.

By the way, have you tried playing a sus add 3rd yet? :) Voice it (in D, for example) as: D, G, A, F#

Simple and sweet. I think it's the OOD between the G and F# that gives it that sound...

EDIT: By the way, that's a really cool recording you have in your sig of you playing piccolo bass!

Quick note: theoretically, mix no 3rd is the appropriate scale for a sus chord.


Well, technically there is no such scale as mixolydian no 3rd, and as you suggest, adding the 3rd sounds nice a lot.


I understand where you're coming from, but you hear people replacing those sus chords with those examples I gave in my last post all the time.

I hear that too, but what you're talking about is the difference between what the chord is, and interpreting what you're actually going to play when you get to that point.


By the way, have you tried playing a sus add 3rd yet? :)

Yes. Pat Metheny would use that type of harmonic structure a lot in his earlier stuff.

that's a really cool recording you have in your sig of you playing piccolo bass!

Thanks! It's just me messin' around for fun.

If I was expecting the sound of D7Sus in a composition and heard CMaj7/D instead, I would tell the person no that's not the sound that I want because they don't sound the same.

Sounds a lot like post #9...;)

Well, technically there is no such scale as mixolydian no 3rd, and as you suggest, adding the 3rd sounds nice a lot.

:)

It's a synthetic scale, I know, but that's what they teach in the theory classes. Mixolydian no 3rd because of the ambiguity of the 3rd.

I always just use plain Mixolydian though. Shhhh don't tell anyone.


I hear that too, but what you're talking about is the difference between what the chord is, and interpreting what you're actually going to play when you get to that point.

Yes, this is true. It is important to learn the exact composition of chords before you learn interpretations. Sorry, I sorta skipped some steps there. :P


If I was expecting the sound of D7Sus in a composition and heard CMaj7/D instead, I would tell the person no that's not the sound that I want because they don't sound the same.


Nothing wrong with telling someone you'd rather have the strict interpretation of a chord... I would expect someone would be able to sense from the style of music whether you wanted a strict interpretation of the D7sus or a looser one, though.

As a little note, Bill Evans is famous for replacing minor 7th chords with 7(#9) chords... that's a reharmonization, but it just goes to show to what flexibility you can have when you understand musical contexts.

Nothing wrong with telling someone you'd rather have the strict interpretation of a chord... I would expect someone would be able to sense from the style of music whether you wanted a strict interpretation of the D7sus or a looser one, though.

As a little note, Bill Evans is famous for replacing minor 7th chords with 7(#9) chords... that's a reharmonization, but it just goes to show to what flexibility you can have when you understand musical contexts.

As a composer I would know what CMaj7/D sounds like and also what DSus7 sounds like and would notate on the chart what I want. Now you're always free to take a tune and do whatever you will with the rhythm and/or the harmony in your own arrangement.

As a composer I would know what CMaj7/D sounds like and also what DSus7 sounds like and would notate on the chart what I want. Now you're always free to take a tune and do whatever you will with the rhythm and/or the harmony in your own arrangement.

What sort of music are we talking about here?

I view playing a Cmaj7/D for a Dsus chord the equivalent of adding a 9 to a major or minor 7th chord, or making alternations in the degrees of a dominant 7 chord. If done tastefully and in the right context, it can sound great.

What sort of music are we talking about here?

Music that you've created, notated and want reproduced they way that you've heard it.

Music that you've created, notated and want reproduced they way that you've heard it.
:D

Music that you've created, notated and want reproduced they way that you've heard it.

Right, well next time I'm writing up a jazz chart, I'm going to write out a walking bassline that I want the bassist to play. No improvisation whatsoever on his part, he must play the bassline note-for-note. After all, I heard it this way, and I'm not for a single second going to trust his ear and knowledge of jazz theory to come up with something of his own. There's no way it could sound better than the part I have written out anyway.

Come on man, part of the fun of playing with other musicians is what they bring to the table--their interpretation of your written music.

In a jazz context, what's the difference in function between a Dsus7 and a Cmaj7/D?

In a jazz context, what's the difference in function between a Dsus7 and a Cmaj7/D?

The lack of an A and the inclusion of a B. Depending on the melody, either one of these may make a big difference.

The lack of an A and the inclusion of a B. Depending on the melody, either one of these may make a big difference.

That's a difference in chord tones, what is the difference in function?

Basically the leading tone is harmonized. If used in the proper context--you noted that it would depend on the melody--using a Cmaj7/D for a Dsus7 can work quite well. And remember, I'm not the only jazz pianist who does this... :P

IMO, you're missing the point.

The point is not what will work/function. Lots of chords will function as a SUS4 chord. If I want an Fsus4 tonality/function...jeez I could do:

F7sus4
Bb/F
Eb/F
Ebmaj7/F
G-7/F

Do all those chords sound the same to you? I hope not. There's a lot of possibilities, and if you read the thread, you'll see I never disputed that different chord possibilities will work. Again, that's not the point.

Original question:
"Are these the same? I see them written both ways

C7sus & C7sus4
Dsus & Dsus4"

Not "What will function as a sus chord?"

You're basically arguing that voicings don't matter, only function does. You'll find precious few good pianists or any jazz musician who will agree with that.

IMO, you're missing the point.

The point is not what will work/function. Lots of chords will function as a SUS4 chord. If I want an Fsus4 tonality/function...jeez I could do:

F7sus4
Bb/F
Eb/F
Ebmaj7/F
G-7/F

Do all those chords sound the same to you? I hope not. There's a lot of possibilities, and if you read the thread, you'll see I never disputed that different chord possibilities will work. Again, that's not the point.

Original question:
"Are these the same? I see them written both ways

C7sus & C7sus4
Dsus & Dsus4"

Not "What will function as a sus chord?"

You're basically arguing that voicings don't matter, only function does. You'll find precious few good pianists or any jazz musician who will agree with that.

While not directly addressing the exact question the threadposter asked (other forum members did a good job of that before my post), I was taking the question further, past the basic spelling of a sus chord, and providing information about how you could practically interpret a sus chord when you play.

Once you have the music theory down (i.e. spelling of a sus chord), it's about application (i.e. common interpretations of sus chords).

The topic we're dealing with, flexibility in voicings, is very genre-sensitive--which is why I kept asking you what genre you had in mind with your statements. (which you didn't answer?)

In some music, for example fusion, charts are usually written much more specifically, but in standard jazz the charts are very open to interpretation and embellishment. To me, it can sound very boring when standard jazz players follow charts exactly. It's knowing what you can embellish on and what you should play as written what makes a good jazz musician.

The point is not what will work/function.

Here's an example of what you're saying: "Now see that F7? I know a b9 would sound great in this context since it resolves to a Bb-6, but the chord on the chart says F7, so you much absolutely not alter any of the chord tones."

While not directly addressing the exact question the threadposter asked (other forum members did a good job of that before my post), I was taking the question further, past the basic spelling of a sus chord, and providing information about how you could practically interpret a sus chord when you play.

I don't disagree with any of this. The point is, the poster was asking a specific question. It's terrifying easy to get into the finer points of harmony and superimposing harmonic structures and losing sight of this.

You might say that you were taking the questions further (you did and you are), and this is not a bad thing, but my position is that if the original poster were in a position to absorb/understand all of this, he probably wouldn't be asking a question like the original one anyway.


Here's an example of what you're saying: "Now see that F7? I know a b9 would sound great in this context since it resolves to a Bb-6, but the chord on the chart says F7, so you much absolutely not alter any of the chord tones."

Here's another example. I have the same F7 resolving to a Bb-6. Only in my example, I wrote a melody that has 2 whole note Gs over those 2 changes. How's that b9 gonna sound now? Does that depend on the genre?

I am well aware of the liberties you can take with changes, especially in a jazz context, but that definitely needs to come after an awareness of basic harmonic structures.

Again, you're not wrong at all of course. I'm just suggesting that you're answering a question that was not asked. It wasn't "What type of possible harmonic structures could I use to represent the function of a suspended dominant?" That type of question is very different and would lead to the type of answers you are talking about.

The question was essentially about basic spelling of sus4 chords.

In the case of C7sus or C7sus4 (same thing)

C -F -G -Bb

That's it.

Are there other things you can do with that? Sure. It depends (to an extent) on genre, but moreso on the melody. If the melody allows, you could superimpose all kinds of things. But the melody may not, and the genre would be irrelevant in that case.

If you're blowing over changes, then it depends on where the soloist is taking it. Maybe he's playing straight mixolydian, maybe something else.

If I write a piece of music and I write F7, then I want mixolyidian. if I want a superlocrian implication, I'll write it...either F7alt or F7#9. If I want a diminished structure, I'll write F7b9. If I want Cmaj7/D, I'll write that too. If I write C7sus4, then I want mixolydian.

If we're playing jazz standards, then it would require knowledge of the tune's harmonic implications and hopefully an awareness of the melody as well.

I don't disagree with any of this. The point is, the poster was asking a specific question. It's terrifying easy to get into the finer points of harmony and superimposing harmonic structures and losing sight of this.

You might say that you were taking the questions further (you did and you are), and this is not a bad thing, but my position is that if the original poster were in a position to absorb/understand all of this, he probably wouldn't be asking a question like the original one anyway.


Fair enough, I see your point. Sorry I didn't catch on sooner. :P


Here's another example. I have the same F7 resolving to a Bb-6. Only in my example, I wrote a melody that has 2 whole note Gs over those 2 changes. How's that b9 gonna sound now? Does that depend on the genre?


Yes, of course melody is one of the things you take into consideration when making any harmonic embellishments, otherwise you could end up with all sorts of nasty sounding OOD and such.


Again, you're not wrong at all of course.

The question was essentially about basic spelling of sus4 chords.

In the case of C7sus or C7sus4 (same thing)

C -F -G -Bb

That's it.


We can definitely agree on that. :)


If I write a piece of music and I write F7, then I want mixolyidian. if I want a superlocrian implication, I'll write it...either F7alt or F7#9. If I want a diminished structure, I'll write F7b9. If I want Cmaj7/D, I'll write that too. If I write C7sus4, then I want mixolydian.

As you mentioned before, it depends on the melody (and I might add it's harmonic context also).


If we're playing jazz standards, then it would require knowledge of the tune's harmonic implications and hopefully an awareness of the melody as well.

Right, that's basically what I was saying--things aren't always written out so specifically in music (particularly jazz standards), to the point where some judgement has to be made of the player's discretion. (and ability to understand the tune's harmonic implications and awareness of the medody, like you said)

After all that, it looks like we agree...;)