Janek

I'm a weekend warrior and would like to find steady work
with touring bands. I know every musician is looking for a good gig but, is there any approach? agency? that can get
you started or is it all Word Of Mouth like most situations?

Thanks
MrLenny

Lenny,

thanks for your thread.

Being a working, touring musician involves many things. Here are a list of things that help, that suck, that are great, and that are essential off the top of my head.


First of all you have to be part of a scene somewhere. New York, Los Angeles and Nashville are the three main ones in the US. where are you based?

You have to ask yourself some questions about what you want in being a touring musician.

1) What style of music do you want to play?

2) how long are you willing to stick around trying to get a gig?

3) how dedicated are you going to be towards getting a gig? i.e. are you going to be a full time musician? not have a day job? make sacrifices in your everyday life for the better of your playing and connections? how much are you willing to go on tour for? are you prepared to do gnarly tours in the back of vans with no ac in the south in the summertime? things like this.

Then you have to check your gear.

If you want to be a part of any kind of sideman project in contemporary music such as hip hop, pop, R&B etc, then you're going to need some synth bass skills. In fact be prepared to being playing more keyboard bass on pop gigs that electric bass.

If you want to be a part of a singer/songwriter, country, folk, etc.. then you're probably going to need an upright bass as some point too.

What endorsements do you have?

As a musical director I fix bands for gigs and tours, I put together shows for artists, work with dance coreographers, lighting directors, video crews, tour manager, road crew etc. If i have three people that are equally good enough for the gig, I like them as people, and they look the part.... If one of them has a tight endorsement with a company that's going to suplly him or her with gear for a tour, I'm more likely to go with that player and save myself some headaches with gear down the line.

How do you look? most of today's pop tours are purely cosmetic and it's all about how you look. About 10% of how you play is a factor in getting hired for a gig. I've gone to auditions without a bass before, having been asked to bring some photos of me playing onstage so they could hire me or not. so appearence (unless you're on the level of playing with a legeng like Clapton, Sting, gabriel etc) is very important.

There are angencys out there I think.... But I have no idea about any of them, and would never waste my time trying to go through cattle calls with 300 people for one gig. I work enough right now to do what I do and then take gigs that come up through connections that I already have.

Being around in one place is very important. hanging at the spots and knowing the guys who are booking these gigs is essential.

Also, being totally unique at something, and being hired to be you is always a good way to stay busy. If there's only you that does a certain thing, or plays a certain way then people will call you if that's something that's in demand.

so move to a city like NY or LA if you don't live there already, be prepared to wait a couple of years at least before you get a gig, and be prepared to have to take some crappy gigs in order to work up the ladder to the better paid and better musical gigs.

The starting rate for a sideman on a pop gig these days is about $700 per week. And maybe $20 perdium each day.

This scale of course goes all the way up to playing with Eric Clapton where you can make $25,000 per week. yes, that's not a typing error, that's twentyfive thousand dollars per week.

One thing to keep in mind when trying to be a sideman is this:

You become the lowest member of the musical food chain. You work your ass off shedding, being a good player, getting the gig etc, and then a record label or mamangement company who works with the artist you're playing with, treats you like crap in a lot of cases. As long as you're prepared for this, you can deal with it and accept touring for what it is as a sideman.

I am at the point right now where I can be a little bit more picky about gigs I take, I can turn down a few but not many, and I'm lucky enough to have been musical director for the last few artists I've worked for. This meant I could hire a band of people that I liked to be around as well as them being great players. It's important to be easy going and good to work with as you will spend a lot of time just hanging out. A 6 week tour might have 30 dates in it. That's about the max number you would have on average. so that means that you'll play music for roughly 30-37 hrs depending on your set time in 6 weeks. Now there's the small matter of the other 946-971 hrs that you have to hang with those around you.

I hope there are some things that help answer your question there. If you want to know anything else just ask. and if I think of anything else I'll add it in later.

Easy,

Janek

janek, you mentioned, playing upright and synth bass. are there any gigs for just the electric bass player? or do you NEED one of these other skills?

edit: also, you mentioned how much the touring musician usually makes. is that with or without hotel, food, gas, all that stuff. Or does the record company cover all that? thanks again.



thanks,


mark

great reply jane. precisely the reason ive turned downa coupel gigs that were presented to me..maybe after i finish college, btu right now the idea of not having the everyday life im used to is kind of intimidating. i knwo that at some point i will tour though and im pretty sure i will love it, just not right now. be easy,

-grady

mark,

there are plenty of gigs for playing just electric bass.

I was just trying to illustrate how the scene is these days, and that many pop gigs do require more than just bass playing.

Easy,

Janek

how would you rate sight reading as a necessity for gigging? is it for the most part or could a player get by without it? i can read and write music pretty well from my theory clases and 4 years of piano lessons, on the ass though i just havnt really taught myself to sight read. my lessons when i started were mostly for technique and ear, not classical training and reading.

there are so few pop and commercial gigs these days that require you to read, I wouldn't worry about it in that context.

But there's no excuse for not being able to read......

if you ever want to work in the studio on any kind of movie soundtrack, jingle, pop session, big band, string, or any big studio gig, reading is essential.

It's something you have to just do all the time to get it better. Start off slow, read simple things. Then get into the habit of trying to read anything you can get your hands on. Treble, alto, tenor and bass clefs, all keys, transposing at sight...

that last one is a killer, but sometimes useful. You might get a tenor player on a gig who gives you a Bb part that you have to read and transpose back into concert at sight. Then of course you get singers who give you a chart that is in C and they want to do the song in Eb. something to be concious of, it happens.

easy,

Janek

Hey there -- this is a wonderful opportunity to hear words of practical wisdom from a hip pro...thanks so much for doing this thread.

I'm curious to know about what "typical" casuals might pay in the big city. (I appreciate what you're saying about really working one particular area to make those important local gig contacts. This can certainly lead to bigger and better opportunities to tour and perform with national acts.)

I've heard from cats who live and play in NYC that it's tough to make a buck -- especially at clubs. That's certainly the case here in the steel city. In fact, we've had several really nice jazz venues close down here recently. It's a shame.

Most guys supplement their artistic endeavors with weekend wedding band stuff and other private casuals through agencies and party bands they know.

Did you ever work in any of these types of situations...and if so...what is the normal pay range?

Looks like you're playing with some heavy cats though. Do any of those guys struggle to make ends meet and end up taking more corporate work? Or do the original music projects somehow end up paying the bills?

Many thanks,

Jason Hollar

Jason,

Playing music in NYC in clubs and bars etc will not make you any money. Most gigs pay from a tip jar that gets handed around, and the most established and oldest clubs like the 55bar will pay a max of $80 or so. Cleopatra's neadle, which hosts a jam session every night of the week after the main act, pays $50 for the main act for two or three sets, and then $35 to play in the house band for the jam session. The story is the same and worse at all the clubs across the city. You can make a living by playing a $50 gig every night if your rent is around $600 per month and you never go out, don't have a girlfriend/boyfriend, eat ramen noodles for breakfast lunch and dinner..... but there's only so long you can do that for without going nuts.

Wedding bands make serious money year round. If you're with a big agency band you can play maybe two hits per weekend and make up to $800 per gig sometimes. Even more if you do a cocktail hour and ceremony as a piano player or some sort of soloist. And if you become the contractor for the band you can make a serious lick off the top too.

I've lived in the US for 8 years and have played 5 wedding gigs. I have tried as hard as I can to stay dedicated to my music, and music around me that I really wanted to work on without taking a day job or wedding gig. Sometimes it wasn't the smartest move financially, but it's been good motivation to work harder to get where I want to go.

There are some people you would never guess doing some wedding gigs and stuff to make ends meet. It gets tough sometimes, NYC is a hard city to live in.

The more dedicated you are to your work, and more you believe in yourself, the more likely you are to succeed with original music. It's originality that comes through in the end, and that lives long.

easy,

Janek

awesome thread,

thx for the reality check! :cool:

(...)
Being around in one place is very important. hanging at the spots and knowing the guys who are booking these gigs is essential.
(...)



not that i could possibly ad to janek's post, but waaaay too true. in the end, its all about the networking.


This scale of course goes all the way up to playing with Eric Clapton where you can make $25,000 per week. yes, that's not a typing error, that's twentyfive thousand dollars per week.
(...)


gahh!!! :eek:


I am at the point right now where I can be a little bit more picky about gigs I take, I can turn down a few but not many, and I'm lucky enough to have been musical director for the last few artists I've worked for. This meant I could hire a band of people that I liked to be around as well as them being great players. It's important to be easy going and good to work with as you will spend a lot of time just hanging out. (...)

you sir are living my dream... :hmm:

Yeah, a Reality Check is right!

I have experience in three bigger markets.

In Philly, when I was in college, I played mostly original rock music. Typically, the entire band would not make enough to pay for drinks and cab fare. It was for the "exposure"!

In Denver and Pittsburgh, things are most likely comparable to other mid-size cities. If you're good, and in any kind of demand, you can expect to make $75-$100 on a weekend night doing a jazz club or restaurant gig in a trio for example.

I'm making a bit more than that now because I play in a popular rock and blues band. However there are some trade offs like travelling much farther around the region and hauling a ton of sound gear everywhere we go.

I got in to doing wedding receptions to play JAZZ. Unfortunately, after the cocktail and dinner sets (playing hip tunes at a comfortable volume) you gots to earn your bread by playing everyone's favorite party songs...Mustang Who? Brown Eyed Who? Play That Funky Music Who?!?

However, I guess in the big picture, we all suffer for our art in some way or another...I'm just happy I don't have to ask you if want that #7 meal combo biggie-sized!

Thanks again Janek for your honesty and insight. Money is something most musicians won't talk about because the field is so competitive and selective. It's good to have some open discussion on the business side for those of us trying to make a living at this...

Just to echo a bit of what Janek what saying about NY, I was in the house band at Cleopatra's Needle a few years ago for the singers Sunday jam session. It basically went like this:
From 12noon til 5 every sunday "singers" would come to the club and sing a tune or 2 with the house trio (piano, bass, and drums on a stage the size of my desk). They would NEVER, I mean EVER, sing a song in the original key. "My Funny Valentine" in Cmin/Eb major? Forget it. We're talkin Gbmajor for sure. And that's just on standards that we all know; 60% of the time they would want to sing some caberet bull**** that you never heard in your life, in whcih case they would bring charts....or rather, ONE chart, which went to the piano player, who was 7 feet away from you in dim lighting, and the chart was one of those "piano songbook" charts, so every dom7b9 was written as a dim chord...and if the chart was in Bb, you guessed it, we played it in E.
Oh, the pay for the gig was $10.
So after a few months of this I quit. Can't imagine why.

Mb1:

I didn't mean to paint a bleak picture of NY as a no-paying gig town; in fact, the pay here for a good club date band is a couple hundred a man. Cover bands in the rock scene make just as much. And those bands work 3-4 nights a week. Not a bad gig.
I'm just talking about some of the "famous" jazz clubs in NY; Cleopatra's, 55 Bar, Detour, etc. I'm not talking about The Blue Note, Vanguard, etc. because I don't know what you make there; I've never done those rooms.

In NJ, the average restaurant jazz gig pays $100 a man for trio or duo, 2-3 sets...it's not bad. Much more for a wedding, cocktail hour, or bar-mitzvah.

As far as the original topic of tours, I've got no personal experience there.

As far as answering the original post about touring, Janek hit on the most important point and that is the hang factor. You have to be willing to go where the major music is being made; LA, NY, and Nashville and get your face out there. Hang in the clubs and shmooze with the bands, managers, soundguys -- everyone. You never know who may pass along the word about you.

Get your name in as many places as you can advertising yourself. Music stores, local music zines. Get into a band situation where you're playing out fairly often so people get to know who you are and can come see you. Build a good reputation as a decent player and a reliable team player. Take care of that reputation.

Hang in clubs and get to know many musicians. Go see their live shows and talk to other musicians who are hanging. Get known in the music circles that play the style you would like to play.

Duff and Nikki aren't the worlds best players, but they moved down to LA and hung in that scene and made it fairly quickly. They had the look, hung in their preferred circles and lived the lifestyle and did good. This example is looking at the rock style but it's the same for jazz or country - hang with the players of the genre you would choose to play. Be a fan!

If you do get in a touring situation always insist on food and a motel room above and beyond your pay. Sleeping in a van and having morning coffee over a campfire is rather carefree and a romantic vision for a noob, but loses its appeal real fast.

edit: oh yeah, everyday do something towards meeting your goal whether it be going to a show, meeting and greeting, or some form of self promotion. Everyday when you get up think about what you might do to progress towards your vision. Little steps count as much as big leaps. Straight ahead!

And this from one who knows:

"I'm In the Clique" - Todd Rundgren from "Runt"

I'm in the clique, I'm in the clique
I'm really slick, I know every trick
And I can get a chick, 'cause I'm in the clique.

Get your greasy hands off the guitar,
Get your slimy seat off the drums,
Go and take a chair in the corner,
And wait until your time comes.
Maybe you're a wheel in your hometown,
Maybe you're the best on the block,
But by the time you make it in New York,
Your axe will be in hock.

Gettin' in the door will cost a fin
Minimum is another three
It takes a year of heavy spending
Before they let you in free.
You may dress like everybody
But there the similarity ends
You need more than a uniform to be
In our little circle of friends.

Maybe I could give you advice
But what can I say to you?
Some people get it together
And some people never do.
Just try and get your foot in the door
And maybe, with luck, you may
Also be in a position to look
Down your nose on somebody someday.

Funny that Todd Rundgren wrote that song...it must have been autobiographical.

MM5String --

That's a hoot.

I've been in many situations on jazz casuals where people just seem to appear out of the woods and ask to sit in.

The pianist I backed up for a long time was sometime too kind -- even to those clearly in need of a reality check of their own.

Yes, I dread the silly show tune fandango -- especially playing a song I barley know in an unfamiliar key. Um...what's the first chord of the bridge again?!

However, the good thing is -- some of the singers are actually decent. One or two are actually pretty good. I've been in situations where that good singer ended up calling me and the guys for a good paying job somewhere down the road.

Yeah -- and look out for the 7 page "piano" chart on the tune...the one bought at the mom & pop music store...listed under "intermediate" arrangements. How true about the diminished chords -- that made me laugh out loud!

MM5String --

That's a hoot.

I've been in many situations on jazz casuals where people just seem to appear out of the woods and ask to sit in.

The pianist I backed up for a long time was sometime too kind -- even to those clearly in need of a reality check of their own.

Yes, I dread the silly show tune fandango -- especially playing a song I barley know in an unfamiliar key. Um...what's the first chord of the bridge again?!

However, the good thing is -- some of the singers are actually decent. One or two are actually pretty good. I've been in situations where that good singer ended up calling me and the guys for a good paying job somewhere down the road.

Yeah -- and look out for the 7 page "piano" chart on the tune...the one bought at the mom & pop music store...listed under "intermediate" arrangements. How true about the diminished chords -- that made me laugh out loud!


Yeah man...glad to know someone knows what I'm talking about.
Playing with singers is a whole other thing in and of itself; a bassist could easily spend his/her entire career learning nothing but "singer's" tunes and learning to transpose to any key...
Funny thing about the Cleopatra's gig: I never did get a single gig out of that, and I've worked with dozens of singers over the last 10 years. Oh well.
Hey btw, I checked out your profile; you and I were born a week apart! Also my sister went to college at Seton Hill.

Small world eh?

Being the same age, we share many of the same cultural experiences, musically speaking. Now if I just could go back in time, turn off the 8+ hours of MTV I watched daily and find a hand-written copy of a REAL BOOK -- I'd be much better off trying to play all these tunes today!

Seton Hill is a beautiful campus. I've decided not to teach there this semester due to schedule constraints. Also took my youngest daughter there for preschool last year - they have a very good early education program there.

I'm in with some of the jazz faculty there -- even though the music program is more education based. Fine trumpet player there who heads the program. I do a clinic once in a while for high school kids through the college.

Anyway -- not to hijak this thread...I do want to say that touring does have it's emotional and physical challenges. I appreciate everything our host Janek observed about piling in a van and hitting the road.

If you're on a mission...truly believe in the music you're making and really bonding with the musicians you're with -- it can be a very good experience. If you're doing it just for the work, it might not be a profitable experience.

However, if you just gotta get outta town for a little while, a road gig can be big fun.

Some of my buddies from Colorado joined the Glenn Miller Orch. for the summer to get some experience in a "real" big band. Saw them play at a festival this summer outside of Pittsburgh. Got to take them out for tasty malted beverages after the show. Obviously, their musicianship has developed...but so has their bad attitudes! They were already getting bored with the jobs, the audiences, the same material, etc.

I suppose that's a price you have to pay...if you get a gig that takes itself on the road, you might get stuck doing the same thing night after night -- but in a different town.

I suppose, for me, a better option is staying closer to home and trying to do as many different gigs as I can to keep things fresh.

Also -- regarding the tour idea...I hear Nashville is the place to go...after the first of the year. That's when the big groups do their organizing, practicing, etc., to prepare for the big summer season of touring.

Best of luck!

yo jane, what kind of synth bass is standerd in the pop gig scene?

BassTerd, I started another thread about that in Janek's Forum.

BassTurd,

Ninn is right, there's a whole section on synth bass playing in one of the other threads.

And my name is Janek........... not Jane. I am actually a man.

Easy,

Janek

besides your own music, how often do you find opportunities to play jazz with the electric bass?

i'm a student at berklee and i just took up upright because it seems like EVERYONE who's good at jazz REALLY wants an upright player. I LOVE playing electric bass though.


thanks in advance,

alex

I don't mean to jump in here, but if I was a band leader looking for a bassist, I'd look for a guy (or gal) that could PLAY, regardless of electric vs. upright.
If you look at Janek's credits, it seems plenty of high profile Jazz musicians feel the same.

Alex,

musicman is right on there. It really has a lot to do with how you play as opposed to what you play.

That's mine and musicman's view.

but it isn't always the case with band leaders around the world.

There is a lot of dislike for electric bass players in a jazz context. I rarely work in NYC in a traditional jazz setting these days. That's to do with me being on the road most of the year, and also because cats just don't want to play with electric bass palyers in a swing setting.

And I understand what they mean. It's a completely different thing. the whole attack of the acoustic bass is so much different and it's one of the main components of swinging hard. The electric bass (although I and many people I listen to can make a swing tune feel good) is not meant for this kind of music in the traditional sense. Not that the traditional sense is the only option out there, but you will find many people who refuse to believe electricity has been invented and will not hire electric bass. You have to really ask yourself if you want to play a music that has been played to death, and if you're really going to make a living out of it.

It's great to be able to play that music and get called for a few gigs, but I would really concentrate on writing your own music, making a scene for yourself, and playing new music with people in your peer group.

That's how the music will grow, and how you will make a career for yourself without having to rely on a few bebop gigs here and there.

To answer your direct question before I sign off....

I am very fortunate to be able to play with cats like Terri Lynn Carrington and Tim Miller on gigs like last night. So I do get to play jazz on a pretty regular basis. But my main focus is my own group and my own music right now. I have a band with some legendary musicians as well as young cats. It's something where I'm trying to write music that bring people that have been around for years into a new setting and pair them with younger cats and play something that hopefully comes out as being fresh.

Easy,

Janek

Intersting thread

I just quit my job of 2 years here (I'm freshly minted 24) (after graduating from college in Ohio)
in favor of a rigid 9-5er.

Why?

To spend more time playing and meeting others who share the craft.

I stumbled on Bass two years ago after I was asked to pick it up (a guitar player at the time - it WAS a massive shift not only in how I approached music - but also my responsibility to other musicians that I work with - namely I can no longer jerk off and expect accolades - bass is turning me into a serious worker)

No I do not read, my very close friend was a piano priniciple at Berklee and We;ve been playing together off and on for nearly 10 years now - so things rub off - namely ear training.

I can vouch for one thing - for NYC in the "original rock band" arena

Looks and timing are key - but a huge amount of right place right time and underscorde DIY ethic are also crucial.

You can't just be the next big thing - it's like advertising

you have to make the next big thing wish it was as cool as you.

I stumbled on Bass two years ago after I was asked to pick it up (a guitar player at the time - it WAS a massive shift not only in how I approached music - but also my responsibility to other musicians that I work with - namely I can no longer jerk off and expect accolades - bass is turning me into a serious worker)



That right there is a golden piece of information.


- namely I can no longer jerk off and expect accolades - bass is turning me into a serious worker

Brilliant.

One important piece of advice is get the payment upfront. I have been duped a couple of times and it isn't fun. You do the time and you get home for the break and the check doesn't cash.

Make sure the funds are there.

One important piece of advice is get the payment upfront. I have been duped a couple of times and it isn't fun. You do the time and you get home for the break and the check doesn't cash.

Make sure the funds are there.
And if you get duped, don't be afraid to take something as a form of compensation.

And if you get duped, don't be afraid to take something as a form of compensation.
I am getting monthly checks in little amounts, I am getting paid just not right away. At this rate I will be paid in full in 2008.

Next time take something as colateral. It will give who ever your dealing with an incentive to not dick around and pay you right away.