Janek,

Love your playing man, you are a monster!

I have a question. I'm mostly a live side man in a few bands. I rarely do session work but when I do I usually take my F bass in. Since we are trying to make the producer happy I noticed that you need a few different tonal flavors to fit whatever the producer has in mind.
This last session I trotted into the studio with my Fodera Monarch and F Bass and ended up playing the track with a P bass that sat in the mix really well.
This got me to thinking, if I'm going to do more sessions what basses do you recommend taking into the studio? What basses do producers seem to like the most? P bass? Jazz bass?

Also how do you combat a muffled sounding low B? Get a tapered string? Any setup hints to getting a really clear B string sound?

Thanks!

Sean

ooh good post! :D


Dave

The engineers at the studios I have played before seem to prefer either an active preamp (DLX Jazz) with flats or a passive bass with a Di box (Sansamp). They say it is easier to mix it in if the don't have to worry about "Grind" from rounds. And the active preamp or DI box gives them a cleaner signal.

Sean,

wicked post, something I'm pretty passionate about as I spend at least 4 months of the year in the studio. Not only that, I'm normally the producer on the record date too. That means I'm really needing to please myself most of the time, but I do hire other bass players for certain stuff, so I know what I'm listening for overall.

To get to your thing about the basses:

first off, it all depends on what kind of crew you work for. As a producer I have assembled a group of people around me that I know can perform at 8am, 2pm, 4am, sleep, no sleep, heard the music before, walking in cold, drunk, high, sober, divorced..... you name it, they can work under any circumstances. As a producer I'm looking for that first of all. Of course all of these people are great players, but sessions don't always happen with weeks of notice, tons of rehearsing, and much prearation. In fact they normally all happen at the last minute having never heard the music before.

As far as the instrument goes.... a bass player must have a P-bass and a Jazz bass in their bag if they're in a serious session scene. if you're being hired for the first time by someone, a fodera monarch or any kind of high end custom bass will turn a producer off for sure. We're talking about basses that have been around for a very short amount of time (fodera, tobias, ken smith, etc...) compared to a fender bass that's been on 30,000 hit songs. you may well be able to get any sound out of your fodera (as I have learnt to over the last 18 months) but it's the fender that's going to keep you the gig and get you re-hired again down the line.

I rent basses all the time to do sessions when producers call me for a vintage thing. I don't have super-high-end vintage basses hanging on my wall. i have just never had $9,000 to spend on a P-bass. So I'll rent one, or get the studio or producer to rent one for me for the session.

There are so many different opinions for recording the bass. there is no "right way" to do it, and there really isn't a prefered way to do it if you work for enough engineers and producers. so think about the following things when you're going to record:

1. if it's a big date and the producer and engineer are heavy doods you've heard of before, keep your mouth shut unless something is really sounding like sh*t. They know what they're doing, and even if they don't, you're the sideman and not the producer. I've done too many dates where the musicians got too involved and pissed of a producer or engineer and never got called again.

2. If you're asked what you like to hear from your bass, have something to tell the engineer or producer. Go to a music store and try all the pre amps you can. try and get as much time in the studio messing around with stuff when you're not on a big date and figure out what works best with your instruments, style of playing, and sound of your fingers. Get a general idea of what it is you like about your sound, and how you like it to go on a record. This will rarely happen if you are just a sideman and the project is big. The smaller (and I really mean lower budget) a project gets, the less of an idea each person involved generally has, and the questions will fly around. That's how I got into producing in the first place. By being on a sh*t load of badly produced sessions, and being asked lots of questions. It dawned on people around me that I had an idea and a vision for recording and for sound etc.. and I started to get called as a producer as well as a bass player.

3. preparing for ording and being on sessions is no different from playing a live gig. There are so many things about the studio that you need to shed. You need to listen to great records and figure out what is going on. listening to what parts work best in what situations. Looing at where an album was recorded, who engineered it, what year it was recorded in, who the players are and what instruments they play. You can have this whole palet of sounds in your mind going into a session that will leave you not having to ask yourself too many questions on the actual date. take some records pino paladino played on. Musicman and Fender. Nathan East - Yamaha "nathan east model" (but you have to remember some of these guys who endorse a certain product dont' play that **** on all the album dates they do, they play fender basses!!) Lee Sklar plays lakeland I think, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I know on the road with Billie Cobham he played a fender. You will find that almost everyone who works in the studio will play a fender on at least half the dates they're doing. Producers demand it, and bass players just love playing them.

I have a multi thousand dollar custom made fodera bass that I play at least 6 hrs every day of my life now. I have a session for a multi platinum japanese rock band tomorrow and the fodera will stay home. I'll take my synth bass rig and my p-bass. that's jsut the way it is. at least in NYC and LA which are the two cities I live in and play in the studio in.

"thebassclef" posted about using a passive bass with a sansamp. I'm going to dissagree for me. Maybe that worked for him/her, but if you're serious about recording you won't use cheap gear. and a sansamp, in the grand scheme of things, is cheap gear. One of the best pre's you can use for recording any kind of electric bass is a Neve. Just the pre amps in the neve mixing consoles right in the strip are out of conrtol. Then you have Manley, Avalon (both of which I own and swear by) ISA, Xlogic.... there are tons. i like plugging straight into the ssl with my fodera too, sounds amazing. The more stuff you can cut out of the chain the better. Some of the best stuff I've heard recorded of me playing was just straight into an increible board. Be it an ssl or a vintage neve or something, you can get a great sound on a record like that if you have a great sound with your bass, strings and fingers naturally.

As for the b-string...

I like to have a slightly different headstock with an extended B string in place of the A string peg, and the A sting peg where the B usually is. Gives the string more length and better tension. The quality of your instrument will determin what is possible with the sound. I would never use a tapered core string at the bridge end. You lose so much of the sound that way. A lot of the time a fat B-string is to big for the bridge, but people stuff it in there and wonder why it sounds terrible. Take the time and get the bridge adjusted. Have it filed out or replaced with one that works for the gague you're playing.

also, unless the session requires a very dead sounding p-bass/motwown sound CHANGE YOUR STRINGS!!!!!!! did I mention you should CHANGE YOUR STRINGS!!!!! DON'T BE LAZY ABOUT THAT SH*T!!!!!

damn, sorry, had to get that off my chest. people just dont' change their strings enough. I'm a little extreme in that sense as I change them every three or four days. Or every two sets when I'm the road. That can be every two days if we're playing one show a night, or sometimes every night when we're playing a two set per night club.

I'm not saying you have to be crazy like that, not everyone plays for 6-10 hrs a day like I do. But those people who play at least some every day, you need to change those strings at least once a week. It's going to make the world of difference to your sound and technique. I have a couple of basses that I haven't changed the strings in years, but that's cos I save those for record dates or gigs that require that motown sound. other than that CHANGE YOUR STRINGS!!!!

put them on a day before a session if you can and play at least a couple of hours on them before you do the date. They'll be perfect by the time you hit the record button.

Recording involves a lot of consistency if you want to be hired a lot. And even more so if you want to be hired for you, and what YOU do. Not just as yet another bass player.

Consistency involves showing up on time, playing the hell out of the music, being cool in the studio, being aware of who you are playing with and what kind of music you are playing, being focused no matter what has just happened or what is going on around you and a number of other things that become personal to you as a player.

This is a whole bunch of cr*p to talk about, but I hope there's an answer to your question in there somewhere.

Easy,

Janek

but it's the fender that's going to keep you the gig and get you re-hired again down the line.


That is very interesting to know. I'm not really in a position to be a session ace (location, location, location), but I have always been fascinated by the guys, like you, who can do that job so well. And, in all the interviews I have read with session pros, this is the one constant: you will be grooving a Fender bass most of the time. With all the advancements in bass gear, I find that wild.

Nashville's not all that different from NY or LA in studio, but there are a few things that Janek hasn't mentioned yet; first, it's not at all uncommon to see many, many basses brought to a session. I've seen Mike Brignardello with a dozen, Dave Pomeroy bring 15 or 20, and even on low budget custom records and demos, I'll take 4; a couple of P basses (one with round wounds, one with flats), a Jazz, and my Modulus 6 string (for that low B). Admittedly, this is much eye candy as anything else; I find that on at least half the sessions I do, I'll play one bass for the whole session.

It's also common here for the musician to choose the bass to use on a particular song; when we hear the demo, we'll kinda get an idea of what we think is the right tone for the song, and pick it up. Like Janek, I've played hundreds or thousands)of sessions with 'producers' who have no business making production decisions, so asking them what sound they're after is not usually a good idea....

Another thing about sessions here - at least, low budget sessions - we work fast. it's expected to get 5 or 6 songs done in a 3 hour session, or a 10 song project in two sessions. country songs, rock songs - it doesn't matter; you have to play it right, and you have to play if fast. (another reason for Fender basses - they work on danm near everything).

Nashville Number charts are the rule here (surely there's a thread somewhere on this forum on number charts), and essentially, I approach every session with this rule - play it perfectly the second time. The first run through is typically when all the session guys are working out parts, doing some experimenting. The second run through, tape is rolling; if you screwup, you're holding things up. If I do make a mistake (or even if just I'm not happy about the way I played some phrase), I have to remember where it is, so that i can ask the engineer to pinch those measures. Don't wait for someone else to point out your mistakes...

It's pretty common here to bring your whole signal chain as well - there are guys whose session racks have Neve preamps and vintage LA2A's, some who'll carry bass preamps and Tube-Tech compressors, and most will at least carry their own active DI, so that they can go direct to tape (well, computer) without the need for intervention on the engineer's parts.

it's definitely an interesting way to make a living... :)

As far as the instrument goes.... a bass player must have a P-bass and a Jazz bass in their bag if they're in a serious session scene.

I'm going to ask this at the risk of sounding superficial, but does it matter where the P-bass or the Jazz are made? Is MIA and MIM and issue in the studio?

Thanks,
Joe

One of the best pre's you can use for recording any kind of electric bass is a Neve. Just the pre amps in the neve mixing consoles right in the strip are out of conrtol. Then you have Manley, Avalon (both of which I own and swear by) ISA, Xlogic.... there are tons. i like plugging straight into the ssl with my fodera too, sounds amazing. The more stuff you can cut out of the chain the better. Some of the best stuff I've heard recorded of me playing was just straight into an increible board. Be it an ssl or a vintage neve or something, you can get a great sound on a record like that if you have a great sound with your bass, strings and fingers naturally.

I just looked up a price on an Avalon pre. It was around $3k. :eek: I'm guessing that the studio would have this kind of gear. Do guys walk into the studio with this kind of gear, or is it usually owned by the studio?

Joe

Nashville Number charts are the rule here
Have used this system for a long time to express Ideas to other band mates. This is one of the easiest systems I know of to get a whole song down and still allow some Musical expression.

Bassist4life:

any good studio will have a good selection of preamps and compressors. I have the avalon and the Manley cos I have my own studio at home, and need to do great sounding demos,reference trax, and music for movies and tv. But you will find that and much more in well euquiped studios. I'm guessing you were looking at the Avalon 737 for 3k. There's a killing pre they do called the U5. I have a pair of them for my live rig, and used to use them for recording all the time. They're way cheaper (about $500 I think) and are the same Class A level pre.

As Dave Martin points out, there are cats who bring a truck load of basses to a session, and says that he brings at least four himself. But in the next sentence goes on to admit that it'll be the fender on at least half the sessions. Smitty: it's not so wilnd when you think about it. When you take into account the history of the instrument, the fact that fender basses are the most recorded basses ever, and the fact that people just don't know about too much else in the relatively short amount of time electric bass has been recorded. The simpler the better as far as I"m concerned. From a playing and a producing standpoint.

One thing I didn't touch on before was the acoustic bass int he studio. There will definitely be some more work on offer if you have a good sound, nice instrument and a concept of how to use the acoustic in the studio. It's a super bitch to record and that is something that I really don't want to get into here, as there are just too many people that get too into it. Mic vs. DI, these strings vs. those. I'm sure there is a perfectly suitable thread on talkbass somewhere for discussing all that. But just be aware that there are commercial music sessions that require acoustic bass from time to time. Get a good bass, get a good sound, and they won't be calling another cat for that one song on the album that needs it.

That's also true for touring as well. Outside of country/bluegrass music etc, that uses acoustic bass on the regular, thanks to Nora Jones and co. the acoustic has been in the modern commercial music scene more often in the past 5 years. So there are "acoustic sets" within a big show, or a couple of acoustic tracks on an album way more than there used to be. At least that is how it's been in NYC and LA. I'm sure in Nashville the acoustic bass has been in demand no matter what.

I like the point that Dave brought up about nailing the songs in no more than two takes. That's how just about every sessions ever is. Unless you're working with an artist that you tour with as well, and they've blocked out weeks at a studio to do a record, it's going to be in and out. Perfect no matter what. It's an incredible discipline that I strive to better at every time I go into the studio. And it's something I admire in the great studio bassists of your era such as Will Lee, Dave Pomeroy, Nathan East, Neil Stubenhaus, Anthony Jackson, Lee Sklar, Marcus Miller.....


Easy,

Janek

wow man you guys have said some great stuff in this thread, one thing that i definetely agree with is changing strings alot, i feel that after 3 or 4 days my strings are gone and i need new ones, i say this to some people and get the worst looks, but its so true and im glad to hear someone like you say it.

i have been thinking about getting a real good studio DI lately and have been thinking of getting an Avalon U5, i can probably stretch to a little bit more if i have to.

so is there anything else apart from a real good DI that is a must to take on a session in your opinion?


Dave

if you're working in a studio you know you don't need to take anything the session. I hate carrying extra gear to the studio, when the studio is more likely going to have much better gear than what I can carry. Your bass is the most important thing.

I use the U5 live (or at least I used to before I got the deal with Fender). Fender no have a TBP-1 that I use along with their power amp.

Easy,

Janek

Dude, I can only speak from experience, and I used to use my Tobias 6 (original signature) in the studio to great compliments from engineers for many years.

Recently, I used a Warwick Thumb 5 on a session, and the engineer looked up from the desk and said "Wow, what the hell kind of bass is that??". Now, I tend to hang around the bottom, so clearly the low B was rather happening...everyone on the session gave my Thumb kudos, and when the Tobias came out; same thing.

Don't know why you are having issues with low B. My basses seem to have it covered in spades, to everyone's rather apparent outright glee. The reality may lie in what actually "cuts through" a mix, and what doesn't.

I know that my Tobias has always been "impossible" to "hide" in a mix. The Thumb perhaps is even harder to hide...sometimes, basses with too-scooped a sound tend to dissapear. Try futzing with EQ, and frankly, don't stop trying other basses. See if you can borrow a Warwick for a session. You might just be pleasantly surprised.

Fender should not be "the winner" in a modern bass studio shootout, by any stretch, IMHO. There's too much better stuff out there. Time HAS marched on, it's 2006. Not knocking the Fender, if you want "that sound" for vintage reasons, but there's clearly more impressive, more modern things out there, that should cover your LOW B needs very well.

well i have done a bit of studio work here and there but not enough to really know the ins and outs of how things work.

i have always though that i didnt need much but thought it wouldnt hurt to ask ;)


Dave

Basshole,

the whole point of me explaining the fender thing was that time hasn't moved on. Not in the sense of recording basses. I'm guessing most of your sessions experience has been with some form of prog rock? gospel? R&B type situation? I'm only guessing so please put me straight. I'm also guessing it hasn't been with any heavy producers with platinum records to their credits. I'm not saying that all of mine have been, or that I'm in anyway better than you at all. I'm just making the point that when you get to a certain level of recording there is a commen thread of what works on almost all types of recording. And that is the Fender P and J basses.

It's a fact, not something that there is too much room for discussion on. What there is room for discussion on I think is what bass might come along so rival the usefulness of the fender. I'm not sure it has come along yet. Almost all bass makers at some point rip off something about the original fender design. And more recently most bass builders rip off Fodera designs. I personally think it has so much to do with the woods used back in the 60's and 70's in the fender basses, and the fact that they have simply been the mainstay of modern music for 45 years at least.

It's not like guitars where you have so many more guitars for so many more sounds. 335, strat, tele, hollow body, humbuckers, single coil. The bass inevitably occupies a very specific frequency in a mix on a song. It don't normally stick out, rarely plays a solo, and almost never delivers a frequency above 1.5k.

The bass is what it is for the purpose of recording pop/commercial music. Fender figured out what that was years ago, and people have been copying it ever since. History speaks for itself, and in my mind, and the minds of almost any serious studio bass player I have ever met, will continue to speak for itself.

I'm not in any way trying to put your basses down. Tobias and Warwick are renowned bass makers, and many great things have come from players that play those basses. What I'm saying is that when you are a sideman/session musician you have to carry a couple of fender basses if you want to work on a regular basis in the studio in Nashville, New York, London or LA. And that is where 98% of all serious sessions are done. Also remember that this is coming from someone who edorses and plays Fodera basses for hours on end every day, all over the world, and on some of my own recordings. It's not about me being some fender nut, it's just a fact of recording as a bass palyer.

I'm sure fender are very happy about the fact that everyone wants to play their basses as well. They brought out that new line of Custom Shop Relic basses using the old wood from the 60's. They're incredible, and slightly cheaper than a vintage bass.

Easy,

Janek

I'm going to ask this at the risk of sounding superficial, but does it matter where the P-bass or the Jazz are made? Is MIA and MIM and issue in the studio?

Thanks,
Joe

Nope. It only matters that they sound great.

I just looked up a price on an Avalon pre. It was around $3k. :eek: I'm guessing that the studio would have this kind of gear. Do guys walk into the studio with this kind of gear, or is it usually owned by the studio?

Joe

Joe, it kinda depends; I personally don't like the 737 and 747 on anything, though the U5 is an amazing piece of gear. Here, it's not at all uncommon for bassists to carry Neve, Telectronics (the original LA-2A, not the UA re-issue), or other high end mic preamps. Some guys are carrying dedicated bass preamps (Seems the last I heard, Glen Worf is still using his SWR Grand Prix), and others only carry a DI. Viktor Kraus is using an A Designs REDDI these days, and a couple of guys (including me) have an Eclair Engineering Evil Twin. The Milennia TD-1 is pretty cool, too - I've playd through that a few times recently.

I no longer carry a compressor in my small rack; it takes extra time to hook up, and honestly, I've spent quite a few years working to play evenly. While there are reasons to carry one in the rack, I'd want to be playing on more sessions that pay for cartage before I re-built a large (8 space or bigger) bass rack....

But the bottom line for me is that I'll take enough gear to get a good sound to the recording medium, but if the engineer wants me to use something else, I will.

Bassist4life:

As Dave Martin points out, there are cats who bring a truck load of basses to a session, and says that he brings at least four himself. But in the next sentence goes on to admit that it'll be the fender on at least half the sessions.

Sadly, I end up using the Modulus a LOT of the time. it's not so much for the tone as it is for the low notes. if the song calls for low C's or D's, I just grab the Modulus. for an Eb or higher, I'll jsut re-tune the bass. This morning, I recorded bass and drum tracks for 10 songs; only used the Modulus.

Not knocking the Fender, if you want "that sound" for vintage reasons, but there's clearly more impressive, more modern things out there, that should cover your LOW B needs very well.

I'll agree with that (kinda); I'm happy with the low B on my Modulus; there's not a big tonal change between the E and the B. On the other hand, a P bass doesn't have to sound 'vintage'...

Basshole,

the whole point of me explaining the fender thing was that time hasn't moved on. Not in the sense of recording basses. I'm guessing most of your sessions experience has been with some form of prog rock? gospel? R&B type situation? I'm only guessing so please put me straight.

Jazz, Funk Samba, and Rock.


I'm also guessing it hasn't been with any heavy producers with platinum records to their credits.

Actually, I've played with SERIOUS heavies, and played professionally all over the planet. I'm not going to go into detail. For rather personal reasons, I don't publicly divulge my identity on forums.


I'm not saying that all of mine have been, or that I'm in anyway better than you at all. I'm just making the point that when you get to a certain level of recording there is a commen thread of what works on almost all types of recording. And that is the Fender P and J basses.

I frankly don't subscribe to any particular "tone". I own an array of basses, and play the bass most appropriate to the particular song I'm recording. For some songs, that's my MVP fretless, for others, that's my Beatle Bass with flats.


It's a fact, not something that there is too much room for discussion on. What there is room for discussion on I think is what bass might come along so rival the usefulness of the fender. I'm not sure it has come along yet. Almost all bass makers at some point rip off something about the original fender design. And more recently most bass builders rip off Fodera designs. I personally think it has so much to do with the woods used back in the 60's and 70's in the fender basses, and the fact that they have simply been the mainstay of modern music for 45 years at least.

Frankly, perhaps I haven't experienced this much hassle because my primary bass was an original Tobias 6 Signature for so many years as a professional. That bass just had SO MUCH lattitude, that it let me cover 98% of my tone needs without ever reaching for anything else...including a Fender facsimile if needed (although I would argue more than a tad "improved").


It's not like guitars where you have so many more guitars for so many more sounds. 335, strat, tele, hollow body, humbuckers, single coil.

That's funny! We couldn't possibly differ more in opinion here. I have about 7 guitars that together cover just about any studio guitar noise I'd even need to make. I probably have 25 basses, and could still name a half dozen I'd like to have to cover a bit more sonic real estate.

Even my brother, who is a guitarist, and avid collector (with over 40 guitars) agrees that there are more "bass sounds" particular to certain bass instruments than "guitar sounds" are to certain guitars.


The bass inevitably occupies a very specific frequency in a mix on a song. It don't normally stick out, rarely plays a solo, and almost never delivers a frequency above 1.5k.

Again, I'm sorry...maybe I've just been blessed to be able to cover more musical ground in my professional "travels", but I play piccolo, and 12-string, and 7-string sub-contrabass. I wouldn't happily surrender any frequency in the spectrum from 17 Hz to 18K.


The bass is what it is for the purpose of recording pop/commercial music. Fender figured out what that was years ago, and people have been copying it ever since. History speaks for itself, and in my mind, and the minds of almost any serious studio bass player I have ever met, will continue to speak for itself.

You need to get out more (no offense).


I'm not in any way trying to put your basses down. Tobias and Warwick are renowned bass makers, and many great things have come from players that play those basses. What I'm saying is that when you are a sideman/session musician you have to carry a couple of fender basses if you want to work on a regular basis in the studio in Nashville, New York, London or LA. And that is where 98% of all serious sessions are done.

Jingles. More modern music, by specific artists has perhaps more specific tonal requirements, in my experience.


Also remember that this is coming from someone who edorses and plays Fodera basses for hours on end every day, all over the world, and on some of my own recordings. It's not about me being some fender nut, it's just a fact of recording as a bass palyer.

I think you're limiting your horizons, or perhaps you're operating in a limited environment, sonically. I wish you more creative freedom, tonally, from one bassist to another, and I would encourage you not to lock yourself down.


I'm sure fender are very happy about the fact that everyone wants to play their basses as well. They brought out that new line of Custom Shop Relic basses using the old wood from the 60's. They're incredible, and slightly cheaper than a vintage bass.

Easy,

Janek

It's always easier to re-record an old hit, than write a new one.

It all depends on what you consider rewarding, in this biz we call music.

Peace, and good luck.

Janek and Dave Martin, I really appreciate the helpful advice. I think I'm going to add a Fender P and J to my aresenal and hopefully that should give me enough old skool tones to cover my sonic pallette for the next session.

Peace,

Footie

Hi,

I have to jump in a little:
Janek is a very heavy player, you've gotta check him out!
I have heard a few tracks of his, he is a great soloist and composer, very forward-thinking. So glad to get to see him posting!

best,
LM

I vote to "Sticky" this thread. There is so much good info in it that it would be a shame for it to get buried under newer posts.

Joe

so I guess i just got told by basshole really.

two things intrigue me before I close this thread out.....


1. why the need for secrecy as to who you are with all that knowlodge to offer? surely people would like to be able to check out records you've played on to see what this warwick thumb sounds like. I know I certainly would. You say you keep your identity a secret for privacy problems. This in itself leads me to believe it's one a very few people.... Sting, Paul Mcartney, bootsy, Flea, Verdeen.... I'm guessing not as sting plays fender, Paul plays his hofner and a Wal, flea plays so many different basses and isn't really a general session player...... Is this doug wimbish perhaps....? but on his website he proudly shows a veritable heap of vintage fender basses as well as his warwick and spector..... wow. I'm stumped. who could be so huge that they want to hide their identity so much. Well I won't pry, was a nice discussion while it lasted.

the other thing I would like to know is this:

how many sessions does a bass player really get called to play on that require 17htz-18k. First of all I doubt anyone (unless this is Mark Wilder or James Farber who have the most ridiculous ears I've ever seen) can hear those extreme frequencies, let alone play their bass on a session that occupies that entire range on a regular basis. This thread was about recording in a session situation. That means looking at this topic in a realistic sense. There are very few bass players in the world who get called to play piccolo bass on a session for instance. Stanley Clarke, Armand Sabal Lecco perhaps, maybe a couple of others I can't think of off the top of my head. But they can count the number of times a year they get called to do that stuff on one hand. So realistically it's about being a bass player, playing a song behind a singer and being musical. I dont' remember the last time I heard a picollo bass on a top ten hit on the radio. And top ten hits are what are made on a daily basis in the studio when you are involved in commercial music.

I dont' think this thread ever started out as a prog rock, jazz or fusion question. It's about working with producers. It sure got me thinking a lot today while i was in the studio on a record date.

I made two experiments as the session progressed this afternoon having checked in on the talkbass forum and read some replies.

The first involved this claim of the 17h-18k frequency range as a working session bass player. I had the engineer of my session filter down from full range to 5k while I was playing first of all. Not a single change in the bass part I was playing. In incriments of 1k I had him filter down even further. It wasn't until we hit about 2k that there started to be a slight muffling of the over tones and harmoinics of a couple of open strings. so my point of the bass occupying a certain frequecny on pop and commercial music albums was pretty much proved right there. I had a mastering engineer come in and confer too, as they have the most amazing ears of all enginners I think.

The second thing I did was walk round to each studio and ask a simple question to each producer and engineer seperately. "what bass would you prefer to see come out of a case when hiring a bass player for a session". Now bear in mind this was a hip hop producer and engineer in one studio, a rock cat in another, and the engineer I was working with on the japanese pop session I was producing.

Fender. each nad every one of them.

That's quite an extreme right there. I'm not saying the fender is perfect for all and everything. Maybe a modulus 5-string fretless is perfect for this song, and a warwick thumb perfect for another. Maybe engineers are lazy and dont' give a damn about what bass gets played on a session. Maybe they listen with their eyes and look at a shiney modern custom bass and thinks it's the best thing since sliced bread.

All of this is irrelivent as my original point was that fender basses are the prefered bass on a high percentage of sessiona whether basshole likes it or not. I started to doubt myself so much after reading his post I had to make sure I wasn't nuts and hadn't imagined the last 10 years of my career.

I shall of course be taking the P-Bass to tommorow's session whithout a second thought. who knows what the music might be? I'm sure it hasn't even been writen yet. But I'm sure that I'll find a place in the track for the P-Bass. Maybe even a place for my fodera somewhere, but it probably won't get that far.

Easy,

Janek

I feel so pwned. Pardon me. Forget all that I said.

BTW, ask Marcus Miller if he wants a low-pass shelf at 1.5K, next time you see him. I'm sure it's just me...

Oh, btw, I'm a producer myself with a few albums to my credit, and a recording engineer as well...but clearly, I know nothing...

Listen; I'm not disputing that the Fender Bass is the industry standard. When I woke up this morning, it was still planet Earth, the 3rd planet from the sun in our solar system.

What I was saying is that there are other basses that can cover the Fender, and give you more lattitude, AND a good low B.

Anthony Jackson had to fight tooth and nail to even get engineers to print his bass. One moron kept hitting the stop button on the tape machine every time he went any lower than E.

Not everyone in a production seat is all that intelligent...and there's this little thing call MOMENTUM. People are afraid of anything new, and don't wanna be on the receiving end of a reaming if the dung should hit the impeller, and things end up not being exactly to some executive's liking...so yeah, FENDER IS SAFE.

It's like the old addage "no one ever got fired for buying IBM"...well, no one ever got fired for playing a Fender.

Does that mean every session guy should only play Fender?

Hey, you do what you want...but I know what I do, and for me...especially since I'm often in the producer's chair, as well as the bassist's chair...I'll choose the bass that's best for the tune EVERY TIME. I really don't care if Leo had anything to do with the decal on the headstock.

YMMV

What I was saying is that there are other basses that can cover the Fender, and give you more lattitude, AND a good low B.

YMMV

Well, I'll sure agree that I haven't gotten a good low B out of a Precision... On the other hand, as much as I hear low C's (and B's) on records these days, I'm not sure how much of the time the low notes actually add to the song.

I'll close with this; apparently I wear many of the same hats as Basshole, producing and engineering as well as playing. I apparently do it on a smaller scale, if Basshole is to be believed but still.... I seldom want a bass sound that 'cuts through the mix'; I want one that sits in the mix, supporting the song. but that's just me...

Oh, btw, I'm a producer myself with a few albums to my credit, and a recording engineer as well...but clearly, I know nothing...

Listen; I'm not disputing that the Fender Bass is the industry standard. When I woke up this morning, it was still planet Earth, the 3rd planet from the sun in our solar system.

What I was saying is that there are other basses that can cover the Fender, and give you more lattitude, AND a good low B.

Anthony Jackson had to fight tooth and nail to even get engineers to print his bass. One moron kept hitting the stop button on the tape machine every time he went any lower than E.

Not everyone in a production seat is all that intelligent...and there's this little thing call MOMENTUM. People are afraid of anything new, and don't wanna be on the receiving end of a reaming if the dung should hit the impeller, and things end up not being exactly to some executive's liking...so yeah, FENDER IS SAFE.

It's like the old addage "no one ever got fired for buying IBM"...well, no one ever got fired for playing a Fender.

Does that mean every session guy should only play Fender?

Hey, you do what you want...but I know what I do, and for me...especially since I'm often in the producer's chair, as well as the bassist's chair...I'll choose the bass that's best for the tune EVERY TIME. I really don't care if Leo had anything to do with the decal on the headstock.

YMMV

With all respect; we appreciate your participation and input in this thread, but this is Janek's forum. We know who he is and his credits (we also respect your right to privacy).

Joe

Thanks Dave, I like to think that I'm not a complete idiot.

Janek, I'm going to provide some links to show a couple of tracks I did on a rock record (as a session player).

It was a very rudimentery rock record, but it was a blast. It was recorded at Shorefire, here in NJ. Real amps, real drums, real B3, real 2" machine, not a computer in sight. I got to play 12 string on 3 cuts too.

I will not divulge the artist, but he normally uses T.M. Stevens. T.M. wasn't available, so I got the call.

I have a Brazilian Jazz album I produced laying around here somewhere...I'll rip some of that later, and post one or two cuts as well...but for now, here's a couple from the rock record:

Playing the Tobias 6:

http://poopnugget.com/files/track04.mp3

Playing the Warwick:

http://poopnugget.com/files/track03.mp3

It's not the best stuff I ever heard (or played)...it's just rock and roll, but it was fun, and it was GREAT to work without computers for a change...just REAL OLD SCHOOL.

With all respect; we appreciate your participation and input in this thread, but this is Janek's forum. We know who he is and his credits (we also respect your right to privacy).

Joe

I know...I've been trying to be repectful of that. I hope I have not overstepped my bounds. I normally would not have posted links to any music, but Janek asked, and I thought I would oblige. At any time, he can tell me to take a hike, and I will respectfully go back to my hole. I hope I haven't been too much of a "basshole"...

Footie, I saw your response before you pulled it. I guess you hadn't seen my responses. I apologize if I offended anyone. It was not my intent. I also don't claim to have all the answers, or know better than anyone. This is not my forum, it is Janek's. I was only trying to offer another opinion...the only one I have; my own. I'm sorry if I came off wrong.

Basshole,

I didn't want you to see that. I've seen some of you're other posts and I know you are very knowledgeable about the bass and politics, which I appreciate. Also after I posted it I totally regretted it as I wanted to be a positive force in the universe rather than a negative. Please accept my apology for that post, I hope no one else saw it.

This is not my forum, it is Janek's. I was only trying to offer another opinion...the only one I have; my own. I'm sorry if I came off wrong.

It's cool. I guess we just didn't know what your intentions were and where you wanted to take this thread.

Joe

Gentlemen, in an effort to give myself some cred in da thread, I offer you this, yet another link to something I played on. I also produced, mixed and engineered it. It's a decade old, ok?...but I think it still holds up alright.

I have removed artist info from it. If you know who it is...if you know who I am; please keep it to yourself.

Again, I really would prefer to be anonymous on the forum...

http://poopnugget.com/files/hhtm.mp3

Your links don't seem to work basshole !

Your links don't seem to work basshole !

They work just fine. They're full bandwidth MP3s. One might be as big as 8 megs. Patience, son. If you're on diallup, go get lunch...it'll load eventually. Don't wanna wait for it to load in the player? Right click; save as.

Dude, a little on the tense side today ?

Look, I'm on a 20 Mbit line. The links just don't work here. You don't need to be condescending - computers are my job, I can tell when a server does not respond.

Off topic...Janek, I see you play with Randy. How's Mike?

wow,

lots of talkbass replies.

I'm not going to be long winded cos I don't have a spare second today unfortunately.

Basshole: you and I are both entitled to our opinions. of course. I think and believe one thing, and you another. No big deal. I'm certainly not going to chastise you or anyone for that matter for having an opinion.

And yeah, this is technically my little forum thing, but who the hell am I to chuck people out if there's a difference of opinion? I did ask, and you did tell. so no problem. I'm not sure there's any merrit in really taking it further. And now that I listen to the links and see where you're coming from, it's just a difference in taste. you like one thing as a player, and I like something completely different as a player and as a producer.

are you asking about mike brecker by the way? he's doing better. He's out of the hospital and is playing again. He sat in with Herbie at Carnegie hall last month and tore it up. He's looking quite thin and pale, but he's doing more musically right now than most people I know that are completely healthy. He's planning another album with Pat Metheny, Charlie Haden, and Jack Dejohnette, he played on Leni Stern's new album. I'm going out there to his house this month to play with Mike Stern and him. Should be a lot of fun.

Also!!!!

Tonight and Wednesday and also the 14th and 16th of this month I'll be hitting with Mike Stern at the 55bar. Anthony was originally booked to do the gig, but there was a change of plans this morning and stern called me. Sets are at 10pm and 12am. $15 INCLUDING TWO DRINKS!

come and hang, it's going to be a lot of fun.

Easy,

Janek

P.S. what I will clamp down on is the bickering in the last two posts. Please do that on your own time via email or private messaging. This forum is about information to players and anyone who has a question about music. Not about who rolled out of bed the wrong side and thinks they more than the next person about streaming mp3's. thank you.

Thanks Janek. I checked out your playing, and you're a damn good player.

I was talking about Mike Brecker, and I'm so relieved to hear that he's better. I've worked just once with Mike, but he's such a wonderful guy. I played Network Doom with him when he came over to do a session, and I cooked a nice Brazilian dinner for us. He's just brilliant, and I wish him all the best.

As for this Fender matter...the truth is, I think we agree, more than disagree, you just didn't really get me, and where I was coming from (or perhaps it's "trying to get to"). I know it's a Fender world...but I (and a lot of cats) like a more modern sound.

I'm all for things evolving a bit more, and I think it's perhaps sad that too many producers fall back on old habits, and only play it safe.

I guess I like to shake things up a little (sonically). I also LOVE to have very different sounds for different genres, and even different songs on the same album. This rock album I recently played on, I played 4 different basses. The guitarist/songwriter/singer who's album it was came over, and we ran down the material. I picked out basses that best highlighted the character of each one of his tunes. In the end, it really brought the best out of each of the songs, and was well worth the time.

Funny thing is, with all the basses I own, I actually don't have one Fender!...but trust me, I don't hate them...in fact, I kinda have GAS for that new Jaguar. Red, naturally. Although I'd probably string it BEAD.

I will send you a link to me playing on German TV via PM. You might get a kick out of it.

Good luck on the gig at 55. I love Stern's playing. I think I have most of his records...you should have a blast.

Hey Janek, just a little clarification about the fender thing....

Do producers look more for a vintage fender thing, or do they all work? Does a Fender P bass with a bridge j get you as far as you need to go on the 'fender' sound usually? These guys definitely DONT want a fender clone? Say a Lull P or a Celinder J or something like that?

Thanks man, and reading your section has been a huge list for me lately, or at least put things into serious perspective.

You know, while I am at it....one other question.......

Is it worth it?

You stated somewhere that at the top of your game, a sideman for E. Clapton can do 25g a week, but there are tons of monster players, and I am wondering if being personable, having a good image, and having great chops and good music theory and comprehension skills, normally will that lead to a comfortable carrer in music?

Just want to know, my parents said a big NO to music school due to financial themes, so I did the computer thing and just gigged as much as I could considering. I have always wondered if I would say the same to my kids (whenever I fertilize somewhere), but honestly, how often can someone actually make a decent living off of it?

I figure you are in a pretty decent point, but did you have a bit of luck getting where you are, or is it mainly hard work and what not?

Lamar,

thanks for your post.

about the fender thing.....

it all depends. I have a mexican P-bass right now as a loaner while I wait for new P and a J Relic basses to be delivered from Fender.

I had the cats at the fodera factory set it up and it's amazing to play. I can get such a great sound out of it, I've ened up playing on some cuts in the studio this week for a japanese pop thing I'm doing. So sh*t, if you can make what you have work, do it. Serious producers will be able to tell the difference between a crappy one and a vintage one. And the vintage ones are just that much nicer to play. More vibe, better tone, more sustain. just better made instruments. So if you have the optioin to own one or play one, always go for that. I do. I'm getting a couple of the re-issue "relic" custom shop basses from Fender which I'm really looking forward to playing in the studio, and maybe with Jem on her next tour if it's right for the music. They are just as nice to play as the vintage basses, and easier to get hold of. I have a deal with those guys, so it's easier for me to get hold of that stuff, but they're very available to the public if you have the bread.

as for the second question....


it's worth it if that's what you want out of the music you're playing. If your goal is to make money, then you can make money. Absolutely. You can make money just playing in a good wedding band every weekend. I have friends who take home $1200 a weekend which ends up being over 50k a year without working more than two gigs a week. There are the super high end gigs like Eric, and they do pay a truck load of money. You do have to work your ass of for years and years and push yourself into the absolute top 10 players in the world to be eligable for that sort of gig, and for that payscale too. Players who get the serious money aren't just getting it cos of the gig they're on, they're getting it because of who they are and what they've done.

The clapton gig right now is Willie Weeks on bass and Steve Jordan on Drums. Two living legends of modern music who have carved stellar careers for themselves over the past 30 years. This sort of gig doesn't come along when you're 22, unless you get very lucky, or are so very specific in what you do, that you're the only person for the gig.

making yourself the only person for a gig can be useful too. It'll mean it's very hard to replace you, and that you'll get the call to do the gig time and time again. When you're reliable and a good person to be around, people will remember that. They'll always want to work with someone they trust, can depend on at all times, and that can play the hell out of their music.

I am starting to get to a nice point in my career right now, yes.

But realize this. I don't want to be super dark or be all "look at how much I suffered", I'll just tell it like it is.

I have gone without many things over the past 8 years of living in the US. I left all my family and friends behind in the UK, I lost several relationships due to commitment to my career, I have been broke and starving hungry on more occasions than I care to remember, and I've been seriously depressed about the scene, and how few gigs there are, and how little work I was getting despite the fact that I could play great.

These are just a few of the things you might encounter when you're making music your life's work. I've signed my life away to this artform, and I'm not cutting any corners or selling out along the way. i want to stay true to my art, and I take it very seriously. there are times when I could have taken a day job so as not to eat cans of tuna and drink water to survive. but in the long run, it served as such a motivating force, to suffer a little, that it's pushed me harder than I could ever have hoped for.

I wake up every day and go in search of something new. I transcribe and write like it's going out of fashion, and when I pick up my bass I play it like I will die as soon as I put it down again. And that my last perfomance is the only thing that anyone will remember.

it's a pretty extreme attitude to have, but it's similar to those who have come before in this art and done great things. I hope one day I can reach a level where I feel I've accomplished something, made a difference in the music scene, and helped as many people through music as I possibly can. And not only through music, but to help people with music if they need it and would like me to. It's such an open, giving, loving and healing thing, that there is nothing else to do with it, but share and be open. If anyone is comin out to the 55bar tonight to hear me play with stern, I hope this is something that comes across in my playing.

Easy,

Janek

I forgot to Add Adam Freeland's record "now and Them" that I played on. Got to be my fav recording that I've done so far I think.

Easy,

Janek

On top of all you got going on, its amazing that you have the time for such well formed responses.

Thanks a ton!!!

hey, my pleasure.

when I pick up my bass I play it like I will die as soon as I put it down again. And that my last performance is the only thing that anyone will remember.

Janek,

I think that is the single most inspiring thing I have ever read on a musician's forum in my life. That really made me think. Thanks for taking the time to share your life with us.

Yeah, that got me too. That's a damn strong level of committment. Respect, yo.

At 45 I'm sorry I never threw myself into anything that hard...

"I coulda been a contender..."

We can all be contenders.

Steve Gadd (although he was playing from a young age pretty hard) never really started getting the bigger gigs and making a big name for himself until his late 30's. It's never too late.

A question, can someone give specific models of Neve, API, Manley, etc. DI/Preamps that they commonly take to studio gigs?

I know that the Avalon U5 has been mentioned. I see most of these manufacturers have DI's that are under $1000 but hovering around the $500-$800 range.

We can all be contenders.

Steve Gadd (although he was playing from a young age pretty hard) never really started getting the bigger gigs and making a big name for himself until his late 30's. It's never too late.

Thanks for the encouragement, Janek, but alas...it can be too late. I have arthritis (PA). I lose a little bit more movement every day. I can still play most young kids into a corner, but I'm most definitely not the man I used to be...

Take this as advice, kids; Don't squander your gifts. If you really love music, treat it like Janek. I wish I had.

A question, can someone give specific models of Neve, API, Manley, etc. DI/Preamps that they commonly take to studio gigs?

I know that the Avalon U5 has been mentioned. I see most of these manufacturers have DI's that are under $1000 but hovering around the $500-$800 range.

Anyone...?

here are some typical pieces of gear I use in the studio, and if I had the bread would consider buying to put in my rack one of these days...


API - 512c $1600

API - 3121+ $2795

API - 205L $595

API - A2D $1995

Avalon - VT 747 SP $2495

Avalon - VT 737 SP $2295

Manley - Mono Tube DI

Manley - Dual mono tube DI

those are a few of the things.....

EAsy,

Janek

Thanks!

Bassist4life:

...there are cats who bring a truck load of basses to a session, and says that he brings at least four himself. But in the next sentence goes on to admit that it'll be the fender on at least half the sessions. Smitty: it's not so wild when you think about it. When you take into account the history of the instrument, the fact that fender basses are the most recorded basses ever, and the fact that people just don't know about too much else in the relatively short amount of time electric bass has been recorded. The simpler the better as far as I"m concerned. From a playing and a producing standpoint.

Janek


Just caught this thread, and I realize that everybody is kind of past this point by now, but I did remember something I read Willie Weeks say in an interview and I wanted to share it real quick:

"I used to go into sessions with different kinds of basses, just trying out stuff, and the sound I was getting was pitiful. I thought, Why can't this sound good? It's just bass! So I started searching for a bass that had a good, solid, simple sound, and I ended up with Fender. The only time I drifted away from Fender was when I was with Wynona [Judd]..."

Q: Do you do any EQ'ing on your bass?
A: "I turned it up, and that's it - these days I like the stock Fender sound. I said to Joe, "Man, why does it sound so good?" And he said, "I'm just basically letting the instrument speak."

This last question was in reference to recording for John Scofields tribute to Ray Brown "That's what I say". Basses Willie Weeks used: Reissue Fender Precision and Jazz basses and Ampeg Baby Bass. (Bass Player August 2005)

which is exactly what I said in the first place. Willie Weeks being the current bass player for Eric Clapton will certainly garner much more respect for saying it, but it's still the true rule of thumb for session bass playing.

Easy,

Janek