Two questions regarding diminished chords:

I'm getting into songwriting, and have learned that the "two" chord in a minor key is diminished, and the "seventh" chord in a major key is dim. How often are these chords featured in pop music?

Should I use the flatted fifth when playing basslines over these diminished chords? Currently, I only use the flatted fifth to slide-into the perfect fifth. For example, playing G, then sliding from C# into D. Hope all of this is clear....

In short, yes. For example, if you're in the key of a minor, the ii is B-D-F and the vii is G#-B-D. So your 'flatted 5th' is actually the dimished 5th.

Actually, they both are half-diminished. To be fully diminished, the chord needs a double-flatted 7th. In C, it would be B-D-F-Ab, which is not diatonic.

After I posted, I looked at it again and thought, "That's not right." He wasn't talking about 7th chords, was he? You are absolutely correct, Pacman. Edited original post. :)

True diminish is 1, b3, b5, bb7 so yes you would want to play the flat 5th in the bass line. If you look at lead sheets especailly older ones the diminished chord were usually a chord subsitution. They figured the typical player knew how to play a dim chord, but not a 7b9 which they are a sub for. They used as passing chord ala Freddie Green style guitar playing.

The ii chord in Minor is a half-diminished 1, 3, b5, 7. It is typically followed by an altered dominant. ii-V7 alt.

I would say playing the b5 just as a approach note to the 5 on a m7-5 is bad. If you don't like the sound of the b5 on a chord with a b5 I'd say avoid it in your bass line just play 1, b3, 7.

I noticed you listed G# as the seventh chord in A minor.....isn't it G?

Also, since Pac-man notes that fully diminished chords have an atonal quality to them. Can I assume that these are used seldom in pop music, and half-diminished is used more often?

I've been doing research, and have learned that the half-diminished is similar to the dominant fifth chord. Very interesting.

I was assuming a harmonic or melodic minor was being used as opposed to the natural minor (where the 7 would be G).
Harmonic = raised 7th (to G# in my example)
Melodic = raised 6th and 7th going up (F# and G#), not raised going down (G and F).
Confused yet? Pick up a good college-level theory text and read the chapters on triads -- that should help.

I've been doing research, and have learned that the half-diminished is similar to the dominant fifth chord. Very interesting.

Take a Bb diminished chord Bb, Db, E, G and add a C bass. You have C7-9. Then to push things a little... Since any note of a diminished chord can be its root. You could play C7-9, Eb7-9, F#7-9, or A7-9 insteal of Bb diminished. :hiding:

You can do some really cool sounds with symmetric scales and chords derived from them. Check out John Scofield he uses diminished a lot.

I was assuming a harmonic or melodic minor was being used as opposed to the natural minor (where the 7 would be G).
Harmonic = raised 7th (to G# in my example)
Melodic = raised 6th and 7th going up (F# and G#), not raised going down (G and F).
Confused yet? Pick up a good college-level theory text and read the chapters on triads -- that should help.

In jazz or pop music, the melodic minor is almost never altered in the descending version ala your example.

College level theory book won't help for this stuff. Pick up Mark Levin's jazz theory book and don't use message boards for playing advice! ;)

Take a Bb diminished chord Bb, Db, E, G and add a C bass. You have C7-9.

The better approach to look at a diminished chord is that it's a 7-b chord with the b9 in the bass. This makes it more convenient to see a Bbdim7 chord as an A7b9 chord. Your other statements about the inversions are still true. Here's another way to look at that information:

Dodecaphonics (http://www.sheetsofsound.net/lessons/dodecaphonics.htm)

Actually, they both are half-diminished. To be fully diminished, the chord needs a double-flatted 7th. In C, it would be B-D-F-Ab, which is not diatonic.

True, but only if you're assuming 7th chords. If you're just thinking triads, B-D-F is of course a diminished triad.

True, but only if you're assuming 7th chords. If you're just thinking triads, B-D-F is of course a diminished triad.

No, that's incorrect. Whether you're thinking triads or not, the ii chord in a minor key is a half diminished, not a fully diminished chord. Just because you don't play it or don't think it doesn't diminish (pun intended) the diatonic application of chord tones.

The better approach to look at a diminished chord is that it's a 7-b chord with the b9 in the bass.

I wouldn't say that's always true. For example, if you have the progression Fmaj7-F#dim7-Gm7, it would make at least as much sense to think of the F#dim7 as a D7b9 with the 3rd in the bass.

No, that's incorrect. Whether you're thinking triads or not, the ii chord in a minor key is a half diminished, not a fully diminished chord. Just because you don't play it or don't think it doesn't diminish (pun intended) the diatonic application of chord tones.

No, B-D-F is in fact a diminished triad, by definition. That's not arguable. Besides, B-D-F-Ab is technically a diminished 7th chord, even though we all call it a diminished.

Really, though, my point was simply that not everybody may be answering the same question. The answer to "What's the triad built on the 2nd degree?" is not the same as the answer to "What's the 7th chord built on the 2nd degree?" And neither one is the same as the answer to "What mode/scale do you play over the ii chord?" or "Which minor are we talking about, anyway?":)

Did any of us answer the OP's original question?

I wouldn't say that's always true. For example, if you have the progression Fmaj7-F#dim7-Gm7, it would make at least as much sense to think of the F#dim7 as a D7b9 with the 3rd in the bass.

I didn't say that was always the function. I said that was the better way (more common) way to look at it.

Particularly because it's easy to see that Bb Db(C#) E G is an A7 chord if you lower the Bb to A.

No, B-D-F is in fact a diminished triad, by definition. That's not arguable. Besides, B-D-F-Ab is technically a diminished 7th chord, even though we all call it a diminished.

I never said otherwise. Quit taking my postings out of context. What I said was that the ii chord in a minor key is half diminished. Whether you are thinking of a triad or not is irrelevant.

I wouldn't say that's always true. For example, if you have the progression Fmaj7-F#dim7-Gm7, it would make at least as much sense to think of the F#dim7 as a D7b9 with the 3rd in the bass.

There is a lot of ways of looking at things. I say use what is easiest for a person use remember/use. Like your explaination to ME your looking at the F#dim7 as a V of II. That to me would be a good use for soloing. If I was walking bass I might leave the F#dim7 alone treating it like a passing chord ala Freddie Greene, Basie's great guitarist did a lot.

Lots of ways to look at the same thing.

I never said otherwise. Quit taking my postings out of context. What I said was that the ii chord in a minor key is half diminished. Whether you are thinking of a triad or not is irrelevant.

It's entirely relevant. If, for instance, someone's a folkie, it may mean nothing to say that the I in C major, for example, is a major 7. He may never have even seen or played a major 7. It is no more inherently valid to say that the I is a C major 7 than to say it's simply a C major. Similarly, it is no more inherently valid to say the vii of C major is a half-diminished 7 than to say it is a diminished triad, or to say that the ii in A minor is a m7b5 (half-diminished) rather than a B dim triad.

A ii chord in a minor key is only a half-diminished if you think a chord has to be, or include, a 7.

I'm not taking your posts out of context. I'm taking you at your word.

I didn't say that was always the function. I said that was the better way (more common) way to look at it.

Particularly because it's easy to see that Bb Db(C#) E G is an A7 chord if you lower the Bb to A.

Naturally you're right about the closeness of Bbdim7 to A7. All I'm saying is that's not necessarily "the better" way of looking at a Bbdim7 chord, as opposed to looking at it as, say, Gb7b9/Bb, C7b9/Bb, or Eb7b9/Bb, depending on context.

Naturally you're right about the closeness of Bbdim7 to A7. All I'm saying is that's not necessarily "the better" way of looking at a Bbdim7 chord, as opposed to looking at it as, say, Gb7b9/Bb, C7b9/Bb, or Eb7b9/Bb, depending on context.

Do you just like arguing? :D

It's entirely relevant. If, for instance, someone's a folkie

Whether you're a folkie or not doesn't matter. What matters is the tonality of the song. Yes, there are many rock songs where the I chord is a 7th chord and yes there are examples of min keys where the ii chord is a min7 put for the most part, the ii chord in a minor key is a half diminished chord.

anyway, whateva - you are just looking for a fight.

bye

Do you just like arguing? :D

About as much as you do, it seems.:D

anyway, whateva - you are just looking for a fight.

bye

Fight? What fight? Do you always regard disagreement as fighting? Whatever.

There's a very dissonant tone to this thread :hiding:

hahaha

How often are these chords featured in pop music?

i'll assume we're talking about good ol diatonic half-diminished, minor7flat5 chords, since I don't want to get into a willy-waving competition

aswell as functioning as yer typical subtonic/leading chords, where they resolve a semitone up to the tonic chord, in pop music you'll also often find diminished (and augmented) chords functioning as passing chords, chromatically linking two less tense chords together... eg... Cmaj7 - C#m7b5 - Dm7... in that example the C#m7b5 functions as a Cmaj7 with a raised root, moving you towards the Dm7

chromatically sliding around chord tones is always a fun way to introduce tension & release & direction into your chord sequences... eg C /// C+ /// Am /// Ab+ /// augmented is even more fun than half-diminished because it's symmetry (enharmonically there are only 4 different augmented chords) means it can resolve effectively in several different places

A few thoughts about using diminished 7th chords: (not m7/b5)


- the scale underlying these chords is not minor, it's symmetrical diminished.

- you can also call it half-step/whole step, or whole step/half step (depending on which note you begin with), as this is the way the scale is constructed.

- it has 8 different notes, as opposed to major or minor, which have 7

- use half step/whole step if you play over a dominant chord, e.g. if you play over A7/b9, use A half step/whole step:
A Bb C C# D# E F# G = 1 b9 #9 3 #11 5 13 b7 (ignore spelling)

- use whole step/half step if you see the underlying chord as diminished 7th, e.g. if you play over Adim7, use A whole step/half step

- diminished 7th chords are constructed by stacking minor 3rds

- you can move the same voicing of the chord up in minor thirds on the fretboard, the chord remains the same

- take a diminished 7th chord, like (ignore spellings) Bb-Db-E-G, and add a leading note to each tone -> A-C-Eb-Gb, (a dim7 a half step below the original one). The notes of both chords added are the notes of the symmetrical diminished scale.

- there are only 3 symmetrical diminished scales.
Example: E, F, Gb. (G would be the same as E, Ab same as F, etc)

- all notes of a dim7 chords can be the root, e.g. Bb-Db-E-G works as Bbdim7, Dbdim7, Edim7 and Gdim7. This means the chords are ambiguous, you can use them to shift between keys.

- I like to think of the 'root' of a dim7 chord as 'leading note' to the following chord. You can use dim7 as passing chords between chords a step apart, e.g. Fm6-F#dim7-Gm7

- Dim7 are most often used for dominant chords (7/b9). Again, 4 possible roots per chord, this time the leading notes are the roots: Bb-Db-E-G works as A7/b9, C7/b9, Eb7/b9 and Gb7/b9.

- check out the major and minor 3rds, and major and minor triads contained within the symmetrical diminished scales.

- for variations on a dim7 chord, you can lower each chord note 1/2 step, or rise it 1 step.
E.g. variations of Bb-Db-E-G:
A-Db-E-G (= A-C#-E-G, a plain A7), or
Bb-Db-E-A
(leaving 3 original chord notes and rising 1 leaves enough of the original dim7 flavour..)

- does using F melodic minor over E7alt look a lot easier now?


Frank