I hope that drew some people in. I recently heard of Band-In-A-Box and though I don't really like the program, the website has a great feature called "Riff-A-Day". I've learned more about playing jazz basslines with this website than anything else, oddly enough.
http://www.pgmusic.com/riffaday_eg.php?riff=1

They have 101 riffs with standard notation, chord progression, and chord names. That's all I ever really need. I already know the various modes (not necessarily the crazy jazz ones), and it's enough to get me through the standard progressions. I read up on the Circle of Fifths which helped a bit, but I have a big question.

With all the theory about playing jazz bass, what is the essential knowledge one should know before trying to play along with your favorite standards and whatnot?

You don't necessarily need knowledge before you start practicing with recordings. It's an entirely different matter to be able to hang with happenin' cats.

Well, my question is one I think a LOT of new jazz bassists ask themselves. Look at the FAQ in this forum, for God's sake. It's full of knowledge but I can guarantee you don't need to memorize it all to be able to play solid jazz lines and solos.

If you're playing walking blues basslines you need to know minor, major, mixolydian, and the blues scales if you ask me. That's pretty much all I ever use and it's the majority of what any blues/rock band uses, I think we can guarantee.

For jazz, it's simply a wierd transition for a rock/blues/funk guy like myself. Sometimes I'll hear a great funk or soul song and a solo will sound so melodic or oddly funky. It's because they're throwing jazz licks into their lines/solos.

What should you know before undertaking those sorts of things, or is it just fooling around until you know what sounds right?

-Eric.

I almost cried when I saw this:

http://www.pgmusic.com/riffaday/eg/fullqual/eg101.gif

what the heck is that

what the heck is that

Caterpillar parade?

Way off, I was never here. :ninja:

The first three bars are ii-V-i in Am, then a ii-V in Cm, resolving to a C maj. Odd, but not too out.

To answer the original poster, the essential knowledge is that there are no shortcuts, no subsitute for time on the instrument, ear training, and transcribing. You're missing so much from your list of "all I'll ever need" it's not funny. Dorian? Comes in handy playing jazz....

Now this is what I call fun. Great site great thread! :hyper:

Re-read what I wrote. Since my background is in rock, blues, and funk, I know how to write BLUES walking basslines. Those involve the 4 scales I listed primarily. Dorian is used, sure. I don't know how to describe it but Mix, Dorian, Minor, and Blues become one big scale when I play Blues and it has never failed me.

Getting back to JAZZ, I was never asking for shortcuts. I play my bass all the time and I've got a great ear. However, the things you mentioned don't involve 99% of the theory out there. Once again, my question was what are the areas of theory that are ESSENTIAL to playing solid jazz basslines and solos.

-Eric.

I can see where high-level Jazz players might have a problem with the idea of a bunch of standard "plug in" phrases. It can be looked at as a "cut and paste" approach to improv, where finding the right phrase is more important than really listening and reacting to the music being played in and of the moment in real time. Getting to the place where you can really do that, as opposed to regurgitating riffs is a very serious undertaking with a lot of hard work involved. That's where there are no shortcuts.

As far as essential concepts, I'd suggest a good solid knowledge of all 7th chord arpeggios - minor, major, augmented, diminished, in all their inversions. After that, a study of scale degrees is necessary - you have to be able to immediately hear and identify these degrees, and all their alterations, i.e. #9, b9, #11, and what have you. In addition, a knowledge of scales is important, especially the melodic minor scale. Add to that an understanding of approach tones, guide tones, and upper and lower neighbors.

You know, one thing I'm not sure I stated earlier was that the riffs that are actually notated are not things I'm learning. The majority of those riffs sound too similar and not the way I would want my solos to sound. I'm just using those as riffs to play along with and learn to play basslines around slightly different jazz styles.

7-1-6-2-5-1 maybe? Although some of the chords (Dm7b5) wouldn't exactly fit western diatonic theory? Just a guess but Dm-G7(ALT?)-CMaj7 basically says 2-5-1.

Huh? A minor 7b5 (AKA half-diminished) is the ii chord in minor. The generic minor ii-V is min7b5 to altered dominant. Pick up a book on
Jazz/modern theory. In a nutshell they combine the various minor scales to come up with a more pleasant sound. If you used the Aeolian mode (relative minor) you'd end up with a full diminish ii chord in minor.

I think too many people look at theory the wrong way. They think theory is the right answer to questions. IMO theory and reading/writing music is our language to communicate with, analyze music, and keep notes for using idea again. Theory is also a source of new ideas to work with and make music from.

Like the Riff-A-Day what you doing with it? Just playing the riffs and see which ones sound cool to you then collecting them. That is a one use and you can good hear a million musicians who sound like that is what they have been doing. Guitar player are infamous for learning zillions of riffs and when they solo they sound like Bingo of Riffs. Solos don't have a beginning or end, no smooth phrasing, just a bunch of riffs tied together. No you find the rif you like, then need to tranpose it to all twelve keys. That will build technique and fretboard knowledge. Now time to analyize it to see what are the sounds being used that make you like it. Now you have a new sound and not just a riff. That is how theory pays off. Also Theory reveals new ideas to experiment with. Scales, chords, chord subsitutions, scale subsituions.

Think of theory more as a tool more than a rule book.

If you want to know what to focus on in order to play along in a jazz group, I think you shouldn't be practicing with that site. There are a lot of standard jazz chord progressions, but most of the songs you'll play aren't going to fit into those. It's really important that you're trained to look at a chart and know how to get around, even if that chart's completely foreign to you. Those kinda patterns will help sometimes, but usually not. And if you're playing for a real listener of jazz, they're going to spot those patterns right away, and they won't like it.

Well, my question is one I think a LOT of new jazz bassists ask themselves. Look at the FAQ in this forum, for God's sake. It's full of knowledge but I can guarantee you don't need to memorize it all to be able to play solid jazz lines and solos.

If you're playing walking blues basslines you need to know minor, major, mixolydian, and the blues scales if you ask me. That's pretty much all I ever use and it's the majority of what any blues/rock band uses, I think we can guarantee.

Okay, maybe that's all you need for a rock blues. For a real blues (AKA jazz blues) and ANYTHING to do with jazz, you need more than scales, more than arpeggios. You need a FEEL, you need little nuances with passing and neighbor tones, you need to BE jazz to do it right.

And yes, you need to memorize all that stuff, and be able to play it without thinking. That and much, MUCH more, if you want to be halfway competent. Trust me.

Huh? A minor 7b5 (AKA half-diminished) is the ii chord in minor. The generic minor ii-V is min7b5 to altered dominant. Pick up a book on Jazz/modern theory. In a nutshell they combine the various minor scales to come up with a more pleasant sound. If you used the Aeolian mode (relative minor) you'd end up with a full diminish ii chord in minor.

Guess the stuff I've played hasn't dealt with minor ii-V. I have Levine's Jazz Theory book but haven't delved too much into it yet because I'm still working on more basic stuff, which is still in major keys with little tonality center shifts.

I edited my initial post so as not to confuse anyone else.

Okay, maybe that's all you need for a rock blues. For a real blues (AKA jazz blues) and ANYTHING to do with jazz, you need more than scales, more than arpeggios. You need a FEEL, you need little nuances with passing and neighbor tones, you need to BE jazz to do it right.

And yes, you need to memorize all that stuff, and be able to play it without thinking. That and much, MUCH more, if you want to be halfway competent. Trust me.

What?!? Do you have to be born jazz to do it right also? The guy just wants to start playing jazz, it's not like he's asking to reach total nirvana.

Band in a box is a perfect practicing tool for learning jazz. Put in a chord progression and practice walking over it. If you're having trouble making it sound smooth, go transcribe Ray Brown playing over the same tune and see how he did it. Yes it takes hard work but everybody is a beginner at some point and playing jazz does not require any more or less feel than playing blues or gospel or r&b. "Real blues" (as opposed to fake blues I guess) just has some variations in the standard blues progressions. It is neither harder nor easier, just different. That doesn't make it real or make it require any sort of mystical powers in order to master it.

Scales are just a means to an end. You can memorize every mode and scale but you're still not going to be able to play jazz afterwards. I wouldn't say any scales are essential to jazz knowledge but a few are helpful: Major, Mixolydian, Dorian, Locrian, and Diminished. I don't like thinking in terms of scales because my brain just doesn't work that way. I would say as long as you know your chordal tones and are listening to good jazz musicians, set up your band in a box with the chord progression to something like Autumn Leaves or a simple blues progression and just practice over and over walking and making it sound smooth. Honestly, the best book you can get on walking bass is Todd Coolman's the Bottom Line. Just do yourself a favor and buy that book (I think you can get it from Aebersold). Since you're a bass player, you need to work on walking bass first and then you should work on soloing.

I realize I'm a little off topic (just don't want to create another thread) and that I'm beating a dead horse considering the wealth of information on here about walking jazz, but I'm wondering if how I plan to begin practicing is correct/off base/waste of time?! I'm happy enough with my finger strength/dexterity that I no longer feel the need to go home and wear them out (thus neglecting areas of practice that actually require you to slow down a little in order to benefit!). I'd like to start walking (on bass, of course!), and my plan is to get out the Real Book I just bought and go to town from one song to the next, hitting a few chord tones and then an approach note for each chord (when there are four beats for the chord in question, or course). I know it gets way more complicated than this, but is this a good way to ease into it? I have chord spellings pretty well drilled into my head, now I just want to put it to use and become a decent jazz player. Any advice or criticisms?

I realize I'm a little off topic (just don't want to create another thread) and that I'm beating a dead horse considering the wealth of information on here about walking jazz, but I'm wondering if how I plan to begin practicing is correct/off base/waste of time?! I'm happy enough with my finger strength/dexterity that I no longer feel the need to go home and wear them out (thus neglecting areas of practice that actually require you to slow down a little in order to benefit!). I'd like to start walking (on bass, of course!), and my plan is to get out the Real Book I just bought and go to town from one song to the next, hitting a few chord tones and then an approach note for each chord (when there are four beats for the chord in question, or course). I know it gets way more complicated than this, but is this a good way to ease into it? I have chord spellings pretty well drilled into my head, now I just want to put it to use and become a decent jazz player. Any advice or criticisms?

Check out Todd Johnson's DVD on Walking Bass it has an excellent approach that you be Walking lines right from the beginning. Todd has a forum here in TD in the Master's section. Also Ed Friedland's book on Walking Bass has got many going on Walking Bass. You can easily take their concepts as presented and apply to Real Book tunes.

Thanks Steve... I had never even noticed the Master's section (kind of a newbee). I'm checking out his forum now. Thanks again :).

I almost cried when I saw this:

http://www.pgmusic.com/riffaday/eg/fullqual/eg101.gif

OMG! That's no joke. I thought you made that as a gag. I can't imagine this being "essential" or "generic". I've seen a lot of music notation, but this is nuts.

Joe

I hope that drew some people in. I recently heard of Band-In-A-Box and though I don't really like the program, the website has a great feature called "Riff-A-Day". I've learned more about playing jazz basslines with this website than anything else, oddly enough.
http://www.pgmusic.com/riffaday_eg.php?riff=1

I use BAIB all the time, mainly for my piano accompaniments (along with their various XXX Pianist series), but have started using for bass walking lines as well. These are the greatest for preparing you to play live (something I haven't really done in 20 years). It's harder I think to get the feel for the BAIB tracks because they are sort of flat and lame sounding, like a band at a Holiday Inn bar; but they have all the stuff needed for an accompaniment, and are unforgiving on beat, changes, etc. Really the best way to prepare for actual group playing.

http://www.pgmusic.com/riffaday/eg/fullqual/eg101.gif


I'm curious as to why this is 'essential' ... it's just riffing around a sequence of V-I cadences ('authentic' cadences I think is what they are called) ... I don't see much useful about the particular riffs ... there's a I-II-I moving down the modal scale, and some outlining of chords (nothing wrong with that) ... but why would I want to memorize this?

What you absolutely need to know is what notes are in what chords. So when you see a chord symbol like Bm7b5, you IMMEDIATELY think, and your fingers go to, B D F A. After that, it's just connecting one chord to the next in a way that sounds good to you. That second part is just practice and listening. The first part requries some study and thinking and practicing.

What you absolutely need to know is what notes are in what chords. So when you see a chord symbol like Bm7b5, you IMMEDIATELY think, and your fingers go to, B D F A. After that, it's just connecting one chord to the next in a way that sounds good to you. That second part is just practice and listening. The first part requries some study and thinking and practicing.

This I agree with. However, I think it's also imperative to figure out walking bass in a way that makes sense to you as a bass player/musician. I never think in terms of the actual names of notes. When I see any half diminished chord I automatically see the fingering in my head and I see the numbers that make up that chord (Bm7b5 = 1 b3 b5 m7). That's what works for me. Other people think in terms of notes and that's what works for them but bottom line is you need to know what notes make up those chords. When I analyze other players I'm contstantly thinking along the lines of intervalic relations. Oh Ray Brown's walking down from the 3rd to the 5th below the chord tone here, or Ron Carter played a m6 and it still worked there etc. I studied with Todd Johnson and studied out of Gary Willis' fingerboard harmony book (Todd's a big fan of Willis and studied under him too btw) and their approach really helped me out. I mentioned earlier Todd Coolman's book which I think is the best because it's very concise and gets right to the point. I tried Friedland's book also but lost it some time ago. I'm sure I picked up something from every book I studied but certain one's stand out to me as being especially helpful.

Todd Johnsons DVD with the modules is more than enough to get you going and if you want something cheaper Todd Coolman's book is great. Willis' book is a little more involved IMO and took me several attempts before I actually made it through it and I'm not sure if I would have if I didn't look through the other books beforehand. Bottom line is this: It will come easier to some people than others but it will require work on your part no matter what. Don't expect to master it over night, it really depends on what tune you are playing and don't feel discouraged when it doesn't come all of a sudden. Somebody could walk great on the changes to Anything Goes and then not know what to do during So What or Giant Steps. That's when I had to transcribe other bassists and figure out what ideas they had which helped immensely!

Thanks to all for your input. Greatly appreciated!!

I think too many people look at theory the wrong way. They think theory is the right answer to questions. IMO theory and reading/writing music is our language to communicate with, analyze music, and keep notes for using idea again. Theory is also a source of new ideas to work with and make music from.

I think something along those lines...theory is also a tool to help understand musical concepts; sometimes on paper it works better than just playing...