So I'm listening to Scrapbook (Violin Trio) as I type, and was wondering what's the opinion around these parts about William Parker. The only thread I could find in the Bassist section is about Charlie Haden not knowing him...

I don't listen to a lot of free jazz myself, but I really like it when it's not just a "mess" and there's a solid rhythm behind all the improvisation.

Well, just curious...

He's a fabulous player.

Kneehimiah

www.ramonpooser.com

I love William's playing, and that cd in particular. I like it better without an obvious groove.
I think in the '60s it was often a mess, now it is possible to structure the music in more sophisticated ways in the moment than it was in the early days.
No question sometimes a groove is awesome, other times it just gets in the way of more intereresting structures.
I am not so into the "conversation" metaphor, if we want a parallel with language I think poetry makes more sense
A poem that says, "Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi." and so on does not say much.
The diference between "Groove" and "rut" is only lingustic.

Having said that the South Afirican bassist Johnny Dyanni deseves his own thread. he did a lot of great free jazz with african grooves, Often with Don Cherry. Harry Miller is another one, his own recordings and his work with the Brotherhood of Breath are finnally starting to be available.
William's duo with Hamid Drake is amazing, there are two more cds due in Feb.
William and Hamid also play in Peter Brotzmann's Die Like a Dog group.
If you stay clear of the stuff on the Blue Series label (beside the great Violin Trio) you are pretty safe with William.
His work in The Feel Trio ( the only co-operative group C.T. ever had)
With Cecil Taylor and Tony Oxely is nothing short of monumental.
There are also some great Bass Duo cds with Peter Kowald and Joelle Leandre.
"The Peach Orchard" on Aum Fidelity is a great one.
Finnally, his solo ds are both great.

Thanks A LOT for your reply Damon, I'm going to check out the cd's and players you mentioned. Among those, I'm only familiar with Peter Kowald. I've read some articles about Dyani, and it looks like it's going to be an interesting journey for me.

I think improvised music can reach the highest artistical level, but I do need to "feel" a melodical or rhythmic direction to follow it, more than a "groove".

Thanks A LOT for your reply Damon, I'm going to check out the cd's and players you mentioned. Among those, I'm only familiar with Peter Kowald. I've read some articles about Dyani, and it looks like it's going to be an interesting journey for me.

I think improvised music can reach the highest artistical level, but I do need to "feel" a melodical or rhythmic direction to follow it, more than a "groove".

Something is always there in order for it to "work" it just might not be in the place you are expecting it. Just dive in and keep your ears open.
The exciting thing about improvised music for us bass players is it is one of the few places we are invited to participate fully in the music and use all the resources of our instrument.
Rather than being a time keeping machine the bass becomes an orchestra in a box.

So I'm listening to Scrapbook (Violin Trio) as I type, and was wondering what's the opinion around these parts about William Parker. The only thread I could find in the Bassist section is about Charlie Haden not knowing him...

I don't listen to a lot of free jazz myself, but I really like it when it's not just a "mess" and there's a solid rhythm behind all the improvisation.

Well, just curious...

That CD is a favorite of mine. William Parker is the one I compare all others to in free music. His playing is always spontanious yet sounds so thought out along with what's going on around him.

I love William's palying. even the Blue Series with Matthew Shipp, not all of it but it has it's moments. The David Ware stuff is good too. I have some Vision Festival CD that has William on about half the cuts that are all very good too.

On the subjet of groove in improv: I was recently involved in an improv series here in Asheville and it was more or less a drum circle with some ethnic instruments, I can't say I been so bored playing music in a very long time. I miss playing with folks in improv who can sympatheticly listen and converse, but it is hard for some to loosen up in this way, but when it happens it is incredibly liberating.

William simply rules. Seeing him play with David S Ware's band about 12 years ago was one of my 'aha' moments for switching to double bass - I'd never seen anybody play like that, and my first reaction was something like - 'What th- I didn't know you were allowed to do that? I want that!" That show was a double bill with Medeski, Martin and Wood (!) and as I recall, the folks I went with didn't get David's band at all. Oh well.

Haven't seen Parker live for a few years but I saw him many times out east. The In Order To Survive quintet's "Compassion Seizes Bed-Stuy" is probably my favourite record of his. BTW he's the bassist on Frank Lowe's awesome "Black Beings" Esp-disk, although you can't really hear him.

On the subjet of groove in improv: I was recently involved in an improv series here in Asheville and it was more or less a drum circle with some ethnic instruments, I can't say I been so bored playing music in a very long time.

I generally agree - but then there's Sun Ra.

I had a composition teacher who claimed that even the most abstract, 'out of time' music - Derek Bailey, Ferneyhough, etc - falls into what he called a 'heartbeat' tempo. ie, somewhere around 72-96 or so. His point was that even things that don't appear to groove, groove. I dig improvisers who can play with a really strong sense of pulse and rhythmic intensity, but without playing patterns that are strictly metric. Imho William Parker is one, drummer Michael Wertmueller (who did an awesome trio record with William and Brotzmann) is another - to name just two.

I think William and Hamid Drake have spent the last 10 years proving there is a place for groove and time playing in improvised music.
Even then it depends on who is front of them. If they are with a first rate soloist Like Brotzmann or Kidd Jordan, or even them as duo it is great.
The last time I saw them it was a with a pretty weak frontline and it was not great concert.
They are like a powerful engine and if the soloist has nowhere to go they will just get them there faster!

While you don't want to rule anything out, I think in general grooves are an ineficient use of the improvised music format, and are better served by pre-composed forms.
In the best case, each phrase by each musician should create it's own musical parameters, pulse and rhythm included.
I have heard that "heartbeat" spiel before too, it is kind of loose at best.
It is a bit like trying to find fugurative forms in a abstract painting as to way to understand it.
If the music was not created with pluse in mind it is purely conincidental.

http://www.emusic.com is a good deal has some great Parker albums on Aum Fidelity. they also carry the unheard music series, and the ESP catalog. which is a great way to get up to speed on the early history of improvised music.
Do a label search for "unheard" and "ESP". Those older recordings with two long tracks are only two downloads, like Globe Unity Orchestra or Manfred Schoof's European Echos.

I generally agree - but then there's Sun Ra.


I think you mean Ronnie Boykins. I think Ra's compositional method was often pointing at Ronnie Boykins and he would just play those incredible lines.
I actually got to play the "Exotic Forest" From "Nothing Is" with Mashall Allen, That is something I will never forget.
It is just a Ronnie Boykins line with Mashall Soloing on Oboe over it.
He played an ebony flute when I played it with him.

The last time I saw them it was a with a pretty weak frontline and it was not great concert.
They are like a powerful engine and if the soloist has nowhere to go they will just get them there faster!

I had the same experience when I saw them play this summer. Although when Drake and Parker played in a group with Sainkho Namchylak in Guelph a few years ago (I'm sure this concert/debacle has been written about by a few people) there wasn't so much an obvious cohesion between soloist and rhythm section as there was just a lot of fire brought to the table by all parties. As a result, it didn't necessarily "work" in the way that it does when William and Hamid are playing with Brotzmann, but it certainly didn't lag.

Noir, I would second the recommendation to check out William Parker's solo work. I got to see him play a solo concert about 7 years ago (I didn't know much then about free improvised music). I didn't play bass then, but at the time it completely widened my understanding of the capabilities of the instrument. Also a disc with Parker that I would highly recommend is the Brotzmann/Parker/Drake "Never Too Late, But Always Too Early" on Eremite. It is dedicated to Peter Kowald and while it goes out, it probably contains enough discernable pulse at points to not totally alienate the uninitiated. . .

Also a disc with Parker that I would highly recommend is the Brotzmann/Parker/Drake "Never Too Late, But Always Too Early" on Eremite. It is dedicated to Peter Kowald and while it goes out, it probably contains enough discernable pulse at points to not totally alienate the uninitiated. . .

- Totallly amazing cd. William has really done so much great work.

Noir, I would second the recommendation to check out William Parker's solo work. I got to see him play a solo concert about 7 years ago (I didn't know much then about free improvised music). I didn't play bass then, but at the time it completely widened my understanding of the capabilities of the instrument.

William's output is so prolific, and he's such a dynamic performer, that I suspect a lot of people have had the same experience when it comes to improv bass.

Everyone comes to the dark side sooner or later Mr. Lumley. Got an instrument yet?

The In Order To Survive quintet's "Compassion Seizes Bed-Stuy" is probably my favourite record of his.

Absolutely. I own many of WP's recordings and I think that this one is among his best improv ensemble recordings. Touchin' on Trane w/Charles Gayle is another great one.

He has some incredible solo bass discs too. Testimony and Lifting the Sanctions (I think I like Testimony slightly better) annnnnnnnd...

If it's solo improv bass that you find yourself getting into, by all means Barre Phillips is soooo worth checking out! He just released a DVD titled Live in Vienna. Man oh man, talk about the bass as orchestra...

William's output is so prolific, and he's such a dynamic performer, that I suspect a lot of people have had the same experience when it comes to improv bass.
Everyone comes to the dark side sooner or later Mr. Lumley. Got an instrument yet?

It was seeing him play a half-hour redition of the "Cathedral of Light" that openned a few doors for me. I'm sure that it was a performance that helped to push me down the path toward the "dark side." Mr. Chokroun, I'm still playing the big old Eastern European bass that my friend has so graciously lent me while I search for a good sounding instrument that I can afford. Most of the basses that I could afford right now just don't live up to the loaner's rather large sound.

Absolutely. I own many of WP's recordings and I think that this one is among his best improv ensemble recordings. Touchin' on Trane w/Charles Gayle is another great one.

He has some incredible solo bass discs too. Testimony and Lifting the Sanctions (I think I like Testimony slightly better) annnnnnnnd...

If it's solo improv bass that you find yourself getting into, by all means Barre Phillips is soooo worth checking out! He just released a DVD titled Live in Vienna. Man oh man, talk about the bass as orchestra...

-I agree about testimony being the better cd. His playing has softened over the years, but he had the room it is still great.
The bass duos with Léandre and Kowald are Great. I can't wait for the Barre DVD.
He is a god amoung Men and Women in terms of solo bass improvisation. I have a VHS tape of a theatrical solo performance of his wiht masks and other strange ideas. His bass playing is beautiful.

damonsmith,

Sorry, I know this is a thread about William Parker but where on earth did you get that VHS of Barre??? If there is any chance of tracking down a copy I'd love to know how to get my hands on one. The Live in Vienna DVD is incredible. You can get it now through Amazon for under twenty bucks. His bass has a lion's or dragon's head scroll and it/he sounds HUGE. There is a ten minute piece with the bow and throughout, the hair barely ever touches the strings!

I got it from an agent of Barre's when I was organizing concerts - something I have stopped doing.
Testimony actually is dedicated to "Barre Phillips, who started it all". I saw Barre play solo after great set by William (using my bass) and Shipp.
Great as it was it was clear Barre had something above and beyond.

I aske to write something for an ISB Barre Phillips birthday issue, and I wrote this:

"Life as a Double Bass Improvisor in the Post-Barre Phillips world.

When Barre made the happy accident that became the first improvised bass solo lp it was totally ground breaking. the idea to play solo was still very fresh, and I imagine intimidating. In my time period it is expected that as an Improvisor you will play solo.
Barre's music is still at the cutting edge after all these years, he is still playing with the most advanced musicians. It is some of the most expansive generous and virtuostic music possible. He brings out beauty in the harshest sounds, gives equal focus to all the pitches and timbres the instrument offers. Most importantly, like only the greatest artists, Barre's innovations also point to things possible beyond his own work, Opening many doors for the rest of us.
Every time I pick my bass, and every time I go on stage, I walk through one of the doors he opened.
damon smith
08/2004"

Just noticed this on David Gage's page:

William Parker will present “Fundamentals and Aesthetics of Creative Music” one night only at David Gage String Instruments, 36 Walker Street, New York, NY.

William Parker
“Fundamentals and Aesthetics of Creative Music”
Tuesday, November 14th, 7:15 pm


If anyone is going to be there, it'd be great to know any detail about the workshop.

... so anyway, I'm pretty sure I remember seeing Spirocores on William's bass, but anyone know if he plays Weichs or Mittels?

[Note to self - stop!!! thinking!!! about!!! strings!!!]

Thought I'd give this a bump after discussion in the Haden thread. Discuss.

I am pretty sure he plays Orchestra reds. His last few albums, Corn Meal Dance and the Alphaville suite have been great.

I've had the pleasure of studying a bit with William. Sitting with him in his apartment, talking about life and music I felt like I was hanging with Charles Mingus or something. There was such a calm heaviness about him. Then we would play duets together. I don't think I ever played my bass like that before or since. After 20 minutes I was completely exhausted, it was like pulling back my skin and exposing all my nerve endings at once. I wish I felt like that every time I picked up the bass but it had a lot to do with him and what he was giving. If you play with intense people it will raise your game. There was a sense that, even in the lesson, the music mattered. It was a funny experience because every time I thought I was getting somewhere he wouldn't be that into it and every time I thought I was all over the place, he would find something there to work with.