While reading many of your responses to some of the "pick" threads going, I was astonished to see the most important element of this whole discussion go almost completely untouched. A few people touched on it briefly, but I think a big point has been missed.

The decision to use your fingers or a pick should be primarily based on one thing alone: the sound you are trying to make.

I have always used both approaches. There is, in fact, an incredible range of tone colours and articulations that are possible with a pick that aren't possible with the fingers, and vice versa. I'm really surprised so many of you limit your sound palatte by not using one technique (many of you don't seem to want to use the pick from the looks of it). I think those of you who never use a pick are missing out on discovering the range of tones available to you.

Many of you have said that you can get a broader range of tones with your fingers over pick. I don't see how.

Some say they can get any sound from their fingers that is possible with a pick. I'd like to hear that. I can't imagine that being possible. (I also feel the reverse would be impossible)

In any case, the biggest range of sounds certainly will come from using both approaches. It just seems silly to limit yourself by elimnating such a valuble tool.

As a double bassist, if you took away my bow, you'd have to shoot me. My bow is where most of my sound comes from. It is infinately more expressive and capable of such a huge amount more variety of articulations and colours than I could ever hope to get from my fingers (pizzicato). I feel similarly about the pick - although to a much lesser degree - it is a tool, which with great pratice, can be used to draw great sounds from an instrument.

Regarding the pick as being the easy way out, that's also a falacy. There are plenty of things that are harder to do with a pick than with your fingers. Ever tried to "swing" with a pick? It's much harder - but Joe Osborn and Carole Kaye used to do it on sessions in the '60's - a great tone, but very diferent than using your fingers.

The bottom line is that your choice of which to use should be governed by the piece of music you are about to play and how you want it to sound. I know a few of you hinted at this earlier, but I was surprised to see how many people seemed to side-step this issue.

I agree completely that the choice should reside in the preference for sound, but I am confident that FEEL is very important also.

However, some people (me, for instance) prefer the sound of fingers.

How I have achieved My Sound(tm) http://www.talkbass.com/ubb/smile.gif is by growing a little bit the nails of my first two fingers of my right hand.

This creates a sound completely different to using a pick, and different also to using your fingers with no nails.

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Your response that "feel" is important too is somewhat valid, but only to a point.

Of course, certain things are going to feel more natural than others, but if you can't get the desired sound, what's the point? If you are mostly in charge of what you want to hear timbre-wise or articulation-wise, then you may "cave in" and do what feels more natural even if it's not exactly what you're wanting to hear. You may even convince yourself that one way actually sounds better to you based on the fact that it's easier for you to do. As humans, we often take the path of least resistance.

However, being mostly an Orchestral player, I come from a different headspace. If a composer and/or conductor asks for a certain technique to be used (usually because they have a certain sound in mind), you either learn to do it, or start looking for another gig. If the composer has asked for something to be played with the bow, and you decide it's more natural to play with your fingers, you'll likely be shown the door (in my case, using the bow is much more natural than pizzicato).

So, I still contend that the ultimate goal should be what sound comes out of your instrument. If it requires you to master a new technique, then so be it.

Rob,

Enjoyed your post. If you've seen some of mine, I'm sure I come across as anti-pick. I'm not. But I am anti-ignorance. If someone like yourself (a pro) chooses to use a pick for the reasons you state (to create a tone you can't get with your fingers), I support that decision whole-heartedly. But when someone says "I use pick because Bass Hero X uses one," when in fact Bass Hero X DOESN'T, I get annoyed. I think a lot of the younger folks would be surprised at how small the pantheon of pick-using bassists is.

As for a broader range of tones possible with the fingers, when they make a pick with the combination of hard and soft surfaces of my hand (plus a thumb), I'll concede they are more versatile.

As for feel, or "limiting" oneself, I have to admit that's the luxury of not being a pro. I can draw the line where I want to, not where the producer does. Personally, I draw it at using a pick (and four strings, but that's an argument for another day). Right now, I am totally digging the tone of the bassist in Creed, for example. But I'm not inclined at all to use a pick to duplicate it (or buy a P-bass Lyte, for that matter). And the reason for that is what Mr. Ric states - FEEL. The electric bass is one of the only instruments that allows you to use the hands THEMSELVES to shape the tone (and "Low Rider" just sounds stupid on a harp). No picks, sticks, keys, mallets, bows or valves. Maybe you've been playing the bass so long you don't appreciate how unique and powerful that feeling is. The fact you say using a bow is more natural to you than pizzicato is almost sad to me. I'm not an upright player (maybe someday), but what could be more fun than digging into that big wooden beast with both hands? And for me, being a brass player, incorporating the fingers on my right hand is almost essential, and puts me in much better touch with the instrument, and the music.

For me, FEEL of the instrument, and using that feel to create music is far more important than creating a particular "tone." And let's face it, judging by some of the posts, half the players on this board can't even tell the difference, much less the guy in the 12th row.

Y'all kin jes keep them pick thangs. I'll stick with my fingers.

well rob, your post made it seem like all of us who don't use picks are just ignorant people who just don't like the sound of it...well i HATE USING A PICK and i don't do it at all. but i have tried it. i tried it and hated it. i didn't like the sound much (i prefer warm, and i can change the way i play with fingers to produce all tones i want) and playing with a pick to me doesn't feel right at all. i just play for fun, and it is no fun if it doesn't feel right, feel is THE MOST IMPORTANT thing to me. and another reason i don't use a pick is because i can't mute the strings with my thumb worth ****.

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"Don't let those empty people try and interfere with your mind, just live your life and leave them all behind!"--Black Sabbath

Lump: what could be sad about using the bow in favour of the fingers. I actually see it as a bit of a shame when I see a Jazz player using a fine master double bass WITHOUT the bow (even sadder to see a pickup on such an instrument). I just imagine all the tone colours that must have come form that instrument in the past that aren't happening anymore. The double bass has been around for a number of centuries now and until until Jazz came along, it was almost exclusively used with the bow. That was how the instrument was concieved : to be a bowed string instrument.

I can sort of see what you're saying about having another item between you and the bass (meaning the bow), but to most classical string players, the bow is as much part of the instrument as the actual fiddle. In fact, Many players (including myself) contend that they'd much rather have a great bow than a great instrument (luckily I have both http://www.talkbass.com/ubb/smile.gif ). The bow, to me, is like an extension of my hand, and the most natural tool I can imagine. The amount of expression and colour available with the bow is far greater than you could ever hope to do with just your fingers. Another consideration is that I can produce about 5 times as much volume with my bow than with my fingers, which is handy when 99.9% of my double bass playing is completly unamplified.

Back to the pick on the electric bass: BTW I'm not in favour of using it all the time. In fact, I probably only use a pick about 15% of the time and it definately sounds better on certain of my basses than others. It is not anywhere as veratile as a double bass bow, but I still believe it capable of doing things that the fingers cannot (and vice versa). My main point is I feel players should think twice before eliminating a valuable tool that can help them stand out.

Let's see...$2k bass; $2k worth of amp/speaker...played with $0.15 worth of PLASTIC?! Sorry, for me, that doesn't compute. I usually say, "...if my hands can't pull it off, then that's a problem I've got to address". That's why I'm seen as "anti-effects", too; if I were "good enough", I wouldn't need that octaver to achieve that sorta sound/tone. So,...back in my early developement, I'd estimate 95% of my practice time was spent on getting TONES; I'm pretty confident I can get a reasonable facsimile of "the pick sound" with my fingers.
...BTW, I love Jazz bass pizzicato-style; for some reason, a bowed bass in a Jazz environment doesn't work for me. Classical is a different thing; I prefer the bow & NOT fingers in the symphony.
...the above, of course, is IMHO.

Let me add my two cents worth...I use pick less than 10% of the time, mostly on some old tunes. It took me quite a white to learn how to do it right, to have the feel and expression that I can get out of my fingers.

However, you CAN get a lot of different sounds with a pick, and those are not same as the ones you get with your fingers. I even learned to combine pick and fingers by holding the pick with the thumb and index fingers, and using fingers 2 & 3 fingerstyle. I can also kinda 'slap' with a pick, if it's a really hard one and action is set low.

I agree with Rob 100% - it's just another tool, and I don't see why I should ignore it.

This is a very good topic...
yes, the pick is a tone tool, and it produces different tones that sometimes might be useful.
Why can't we leave it at that? As musicians, we have only one (main) goal - to produce good music. If the pick sounds good with a certain track, then why the f_ck shouldn't we use it? Coz it's cheap? Coz it's not our FAVOURITE "tone tool"? Most of us have more than one bass, we might have our favourite, but that doesn't mean we'll never use the other basses when their sounds are needed (e.g. fretted/fretless).

Someone said that they wont use it coz its cheap? well that's just sad.

It doesn't feel right/good? i don't know about you, but i feel right/good whenever the audience enjoys my music, whatever it takes.

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'didn't mean to offend anyone, you're all entitled to yer opinions,etc It just sounds better like this...

I must say that I agree with JimK and that I wouldn't want to rely on a cheap piece of plastic for my sound and that I can get any sound I've heard on a record, just using my fingers, which are far more reliable and better-trained for the job. http://www.talkbass.com/ubb/wink.gif

I suspect though, that the main reason we both hate picks is the feeling that you're being limited (by someone else usually) in terms of your sound - in particular the dynamic range. I have heard comments from several pros in interviews (John Entwistle for example) that the only reason they used a pick on a recording was because the engineer thought it would "produce a more consistent sound".

I tend to let the nails on my thumb grow a bit longer and they have got very hard over the years - I can use my right thumb nail (and palm muting) if an abrasive "pick-like" sound is needed - for example like JJ Burnel in the Stranglers.

I also wouldn't want to get reliant on a pick, because you would undoubtedly get the situation where your last one falls down a drain, just before that important gig, where the record company exec. is coming especially to hear you (this is a theoretical example!) - so what do you do, make your excuses and leave or play badly becuase you've always practiced the set using a pick?

I also think this probably relates to the sense again in which a lot of bass players think of the "sound" as being their own and that is identified with them and people either take them as they are or leave it.

Most of us aren't in the same situation as RobW where we are playing parts for a living and spend a lot of time getting the **sound** we really like and object to anyone else telling us how to sound - if they don't like it why did they choose us to be in the band?

As I don't rely on music for my living I would be happy to tell someone where to go if they didn't like my sound or the way I play and would go off and play with people who did like it. I would be happy to take advice on technique and musical theory, but in terms of sound - "I know what I like" and while I would always, of course, try to make my bass part fit the piece of music, if someobody told me to play with a pick for a particular song I would tell them to get somebody else.

Yeah, well, I am "sad"...again, if my hands can't pull something off, then I need to address that problem. For S&Gs, I pulled a guitar pick out last night & tried it; I then played back by the bridge with the TIP of my index finger & with a little nail...no difference(to these tone deaf ears)!

There was a time I did some studio work in this town(& ghosted some parts for some bands' projects)...couple times, I was asked to use a pick to get that Rock 1/8s-Root thing happenin'...I can so do that with fingers; so why should I succumb using something that isn't comfortable FOR ME & that will affect my playing & ultimately lessen the listeners' pleasure(if any).


...and to sound like the perfect hypocrite-I actually prefer using a pick on a guitar(all 0.15 cents worth!).

A must for that "GANK" sound from a Rick Bass
Also Using a pick is a nice change up during the weekend. When youve played your ass off, and the blisters are formin'

It's alright if you can get the sound you want without using a plectrum, all i'm saying is that you shouldn't completely dismiss it, and be "afraid" of it.

I still, however, don't feel too comfortable with the 'cheap' thing...

Actually, i sometimes play with the (back)nail of my index and/or middle finger, with my thumb supporting it, sort of like playing pick-style without a pick. I fink it's called apoyando or somin'.

I almost forgot the other "bad" thing about using a pick. People use it as a "rest" when their fingers are getting sore and as a result don't develop the callouses necessary to play with their fingers for long periods.
This is probably the main reason why I wouldn't advise beginners to bass to use a pick. This ends up "limiting" their use of fingers because it is less painful than using a pick.

Also to me, the Rickenbacker "Clank" is alright in one or two musical situation (Yes and the Jam http://www.talkbass.com/ubb/wink.gif) , but really stands out like a sore thumb in 99% of music and to my ears is virtually unusable.

Maybe some of us like playing "Old" music from time to time. I love the Rickenbacker "GANK" and I play that way from time to time - in fact I've recently put together an early Genesis tribute band, just for fun in my spare time. The pick is very essential to the old Rutherford Ricky sound (it also more convenient to pick the bass when you have to switch from 12 string guitar to bass in less than 2 beats of music! - there's no time to switch between pick and fingers anyway).

Chris Squire still uses the same sound after all these years, and it's a good one. You're right it's not for every day, but it's a nice change at times.

I still don't understand why people are so concerned about the cheapness of the pick. Maybe if they charged $2000 for a pick that would make you feel better. Do you think all the mandolin and guitar players out there should change their ways because they're using a cheap piece of plastic? What about drummers? A set of drums sticks is pretty cheap compared to a DW drum kit. I know violinst who have half-million dollar instruments played with $2000 bows - that's a significant amount cheaper than the instrument!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield:
Also to me, the Rickenbacker "Clank" is alright in one or two musical situation (Yes and the Jam http://www.talkbass.com/ubb/wink.gif) , but really stands out like a sore thumb in 99% of music and to my ears is virtually unusable.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with everything you said before about using a pick, but i have to disagree here.

I know this is your very own taste, but i dont see the so called "GLANK" (or "CLANK", whatever) as unusable.

I also grow my fingernails a bit specifically to achieve that "GLANK" with my 4003 in a way that i just can't using a pick, and i play like that 100% of the time!

Back to the subject, i agree with whoever said that beginners should play with fingers so to develop calluses. Maybe if they want to change to using a pick after, its ok, but at least they have good background using their hands, and can value the difference in sounds that each technique offers.



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Drum Sticks..."organic"
Violin Bow..."organic"
Your hands..."organic"
Plectrum..."plastic"?
...see where I'm goin' with this?

BTW...I'm not thrilled(at all)about pickguards being on instruments, either!

Turning it up a notch...

Strings... "metal"
Pickups... "metal" and "plastic"
Electronix... "metal"
...

I don't use a pick either, but refusing to use it because its plastic i think is just plain silly, I'm sorry.

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I think it is a n "organic" thing in terms of sound. I play in a Jazz context, with a lot of "acoustic" instruments and players. Using your fingers makes a sound that fits in well enough with this type of group, but much as I admire Chris Squire as a player - his "sound" just would not fit in with a small acoustic Jazz group!

Now if you think about all the types of music there are - Jazz, Latin, Reggae etc. - there are actually very few situations where this will fit in - that's all I was saying and I would stick by it. And it definitely would be unsuable in the bands in which I play. I have heard bassists at Jazz workshops
using a pick and it does really sound out of place - that's all you can hear and it becomes very irritating.

I'm not worried about how cheap a pick is - just how easy to lose and how it comes between me and the strings.

I fall into the use whatever camp. Sometimes I just like the sound of a picked P-bass. Then again I don't use a pick for any of my band's songs (rock style).

What about Tony Levin's funk fingers? I really want a pair of those although his company is currently out of them. I may have to make some of my own. I mess around sometimes using a single drumstick to thump the strings to emulate the tone and it's very percussive yet different than a slap.

But funk fingers are organic (wood), at least until you dip them in the plastic/rubber tool handle dip.

Use whatever. It aint the same, but it aint better and It aint worse. All you all have listened repeatedly to tunes you love that use a pick on the bass.

I only happen to use my fingers for playing bass because it feels right, but I only do it because I feel like it. It’s a rather arbitrary choice bassed on taste. I would shamelessly use a pick if the urge struck me and I bet I would be able to make a valid statement that people would enjoy.

These – “this is better than that discussions” get rather dull after a wile don’t they?

Any of our idols of bass could probably wax the lot of us on the worst POS we could put in there hands.

How bouts this for a topic - what’s the all time dullest list topic?

Ragginjc

Yo, "R"...
Strings, pickups, electronix(sic)="metal"? Very true..."Metal", though is from ORE which(again)is from the Earth.

...you guys are easy; thanks(again)for the comic relief! http://www.talkbass.com/ubb/smile.gif

Where do you think the raw materials from plastic come from...an alternate universe? http://www.talkbass.com/ubb/smile.gif

As a university honours chem and bio student I would like to say that a pick is made of plastic. Plastic is made of long chain carbon molecules. You want to know what else is made of those?? Well it ain't metal!!!! Plastic is made of the same types of molecules as your fingers so quit whining about it. The only thing here that is not organic is the string. Try playing without those http://www.talkbass.com/ubb/tongue.gif

Also plastic is made of fossil fuels which are just decomposed animals. Those animals probably had some fingers. So whenever you use a pick you are probably just using another's fingers anyway http://www.talkbass.com/ubb/wink.gif

The material is beside the point. Your bass is probably worth less money per kilogram than your pick is anyway. This discussion should centre on the functionality of a pick. If you want to complain about materials carve yourself a decent pick out of yew or something, use it, then come talk about tones and technique. Maybe you will find a sound you really like.
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[This message has been edited by Drake (edited April 12, 2000).]

This is where I stand-
Point 1 (subjective)- I think the pick sounds cool on new strings, but woeful on old strings. (Just like slap, really). I've found that getting an acceptable tone out of old strings is really only possible with fingers.
Point 2 (personal)- The band plays only original stuff, so I make the rules (if rules could be said to exist). The natural thing for me is to use finger style.
Point 3 (subjective)- The guys in the band prefer the "fingers" sound... I guess I could throw a tantrum if I thought a pick would be really cool in one spot. hehehe
See where this is heading?

I wonder if Rob W tried using a pick on 'is contrabass.

Shawn

You guys are killin' me! Thanks for the science lesson, too!
To bring an end to this(maybe), this discussion has been broached in the past a few times...I always state my opinion(the "sound is in your HANDS" notion)& then read/enjoy the "battle"(lump vs everybody else, usually). This time, I wanted to have a little fun, that's all. Really, use what you will...like I said earlier, I actually use a pick when I play the guitar. For me, though, rhythm is "big"(I suck at melody, "OK" at harmony)...in order for me to "groove like a drummer"(which is my ultimate goal), I need both fingers to mimic the TWO sticks(wooden;-) that a drummer uses.

Shawn-I would think a pick would bring "dead" strings to "life"...no?

No problem http://www.talkbass.com/ubb/wink.gif


All in good fun.

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JimK:
Shawn-I would think a pick would bring "dead" strings to "life"...no?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You think so? Must be a difference in our techniques, or what we consider a "good" sound. I like the high freqs to ring uniformly like the low freqs... If the highs are completely absent (as in fingerstyle) it doesn't bother me. But with a pick, it seems to go "thunk" or something like that... IMO, yuck.
I did have success (albiet limited) with old strings by using a very fat, sharp pick (akin to the end of a kitchen knife), picking about a quarter-inch from the bridge. It sounded nice but I couldn't get enough volume out of it.

When I use a pick, I'm usually after a "synthy" sort of sound. Maybe that's why I only like the picking tone from new strings.

I know you didn't mean this, but even if I liked the sound of dead strings w/ a pick, I'd never switch to pick style to get a sound that I'm happy with, just so I didn't have to replace the strings. :-)

Shawn

[This message has been edited by ShawnRiley (edited April 13, 2000).]

&gt;I always state my opinion & then read/enjoy
&gt;the "battle"(lump vs everybody else,
&gt;usually). This time, I wanted to have a
&gt;little fun, that's all.

JimK, you don't know how many times i've heard this excuse from people who's argument has been bashed to bits.

But it's ok, i don't care anymore, this discussion is just plain stupid now.

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-RIC-

This isn't an "argument" as such. Just people stating their opinions. Some people like the sound of a pick on bass and some don't - those who like it can use it, but to some of us it just sounds "unsuable" - it's entirely subjective and down to personal preference.

I can understand what Jim says when he calls it "organic" - the sounds of fingerstyle bass just "fit in" better with other instruments and form an "organic whole" - while to me the "pick sound" really stands out and draws attention to itself as a sharp defined sound, that is separate from the rest - now this can be a good thing - I really like the bass on the "Bullitt" sound track and the themes from 60s TV cop shows. But this is exploiting the "newness" of the sound and the way it draws your attention - sort of "ominous" in the soundtrack context. But in 99% of situations it always sounds more "organic" to me without a pick - more blending into the whole sound.

Anyway - as I said it's all subjective - so I've probably wasted my time with this post anyway http://www.talkbass.com/ubb/wink.gif

Ouch...got me, Rick!

To me, there was never any "argument" involved. I know what I like; in order to get the sound that's inside my head & outta the bass requires no pick; nobody will ever convince me otherwise.
What you like is another story...whatever floats your boat is fine.

I gotta go with Ric on this one (and I am just so glad everything is ok with him).

I never feel a discussion is satisfactorily concluded until the other person says, "Wow, lump, you're absolutely right. Not only have you changed my way of thinking, but I'm pretty sure I want to sleep with you." (Although in this case, I would have to respectfully decline).

Anything less is generally a disappointment.

JimK, i wasn't trying to convince you to use a pick. How could i do that if i hate picks myself?

Anyway, maybe this did have a happy ending after all http://www.talkbass.com/ubb/smile.gif.


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-RIC-

Ric-
Where's your logo?
...somehow, I feel cheated ;-)

It took to much space http://www.talkbass.com/ubb/smile.gif
And it looked more like mashed potatoes than an 'R' anyway!

(sorry if the new one is too plain http://www.talkbass.com/ubb/tongue.gif )

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-RIC-


[This message has been edited by RickenbackeR (edited April 16, 2000).]

Hello everybody! This is a first of mine here on TalkBass my name is Ronald Flores and I am a bassist from Puerto Rico. I've been reading around the picks message threads and I suggest the approach I have been following to solve the pick/no pick dilemma. I started growing nails on my right hand; not too long cause they break easily, and not too short to make a fake sound. Long enough nails can help you get that sound definition we all love, specially for working those choral chords up on the fretboard. But also since they are not *that* long you can develop a technique on which you use the flesh of the finger, making you a very versatile bass player to adjust for any music style.

Hope this helps ya out, if you have any questions dont hasitate to e-mail me.

-Ron

Playing with just a pick or just fingers is kinda like eating with just a fork or just a spoon. You really need both to get the job done.

"Using a pick and hand muteing through a powerful amp is akinn to a religious experience" someone else said it and I agree. At the same time the round warm tones hide from a pick. A pick is one of my tools, I don't use it all the time but when I need it, nothing else will do.

I do learn all riffs with both just to improve dexterity.

Anyone ever try the picks with the finger alignment loop? How about the brass or stainless steel picks? How about the ergonomic picks?

Actually, regarding jingles, I was watching TV one night a few weeks ago and I happened to notice that quite a number of the jingles during a the commercial breaks actually were played with a pick. I was actually quite surprised.

In the LA studio scene in the late '60's and well into the '70's a great number of producers asked session players to use a pick. It was a very common requirement.

I have to say, in my line of work, I'm often called upon to reproduce classic tones of older recordings. I do a fair number of Symphony Orchestra "Pops" concerts on electric bass, and if you're playing say, a Burt Bacharach selection, you dig out the pick, throw a set of flatwounds on and do your best Joe Osborn/Carol Kaye impression. Now you may not choose to try and match the original sound that closely, but I quite enjoy it.

Your assertion that you can reproduce the sound of a pick accurately by slapping is very interesting. All I can say is if you can slap a bass and make it sound exactly like Joe Osborn playing "Aquarius/Let the Sun Shine" you deserve to be on the cover of Bass Player Magazine. I really don't think it's possible.

I know this isn't quite the same, but on my double bass, if I practiced 24 hours a day for 20 years, I'd never be able to get my fingers to make the sounds that I can get with my bow. The pick isn't as different of course, but I still contend you'll never quite reproduce the exact sound with your fingers for every single tonal application of the pick - there is a huge spectrum of tones available with the pick (as well as just the fingers).

To be honest, a lot of times, the only person who pays that much attention to your sound is you. Very often, producers and clients aren't always as fussy about certain sounds as we are. When I play a session, I often choose to use a certain bass or technique for a given track based on what I feel would fit. So occasionally, I will choose to use a pick because I feel a track lends itself to a particluar tone and articulation that I can get easily with a pick.

Now those of you that don't use a pick ever, your free to do that - but to suggest that you should be able to reproduce any picked sound with your fingers seems frankly impossible to me. I do agree that you can probably come very close to reproducing certain picked sounds but I'm sure you're not getting them all. I suggest to those who don't pick: think of all the timbres and articulations you have worked on with your fingers - if you haven't spent equal time on the pick, I suspect you aren't fully aware of the immense variety of sounds available from the pick as well.

This reminds me of my big pet peeve of people using synthesizers to try to emulate string sections. Things have come a long way since the early days, but the keyboard sounds still don't cut it. Besides, It takes so much work to actually try and get the synthesizer to do all of the great variety of timbres and articulations (which it never does quite manage) - a real string section could have a 3 minute song recorded in a far superior manner in very little more than 3 minutes.

So why try to emmulate the pick - just grab one and use it. Work on your pick technique and your fingers and you'll have the widest possible range of timbre and articulation.

Great bassist Dann Glenn said somthing like
"Playing bass with a pick is like putting an elephant in high heels to get it to dance better"I totally agree with this snobby attitude http://www.talkbass.com/ubb/biggrin.gif To all the guys that say certain situations might require you to play with a pick I say this.I think this situation would be extremely rare and if sombody you were working for did wanted a "pick" sound why not just slap with your thumb?It produces a similiar tone.A much better tone I think.
Nothing against all pick players.I realize is a matter of preference.But to say you might be required to play with a pick is silly.Your a million times more likely to be required to play with your fingers.How many jingles do you hear with a pick playing bassist?And again,if somebody wants that percussive sound just slap with your thumb.
Now Im sure I'll be flamed by someone who would of lost the Gig with the Smashing Pumpkins if they didnt use a pick :P
Peace

[This message has been edited by theJello (edited May 04, 2000).]

Well,I didnt "assert" that you could reproduce the sound of a pick by playing with your thumb.All I said is that it produced a similiar sound as far as being much more percussive,bright, and having a noticable transient attack compared to finger style.I never said you could reproduce the sound of a pick.Personly I dont know why you would want to.Thats just me though.
As far as trying to emulate the sound of other players thats up to you and I can understand where your coming from.
To me there are so many nuances to master with just finger style why would you bother with a pick?Plus your is tone better.You have more control of dynamics,you can play stuff that cannot be played with a pick(at least and sound cool http://www.talkbass.com/ubb/biggrin.gif)blah blah blah
As far engineers in the 60 and 70's wanting players to use a pick,I think this was a lack of good bass equipment a trend or both http://www.talkbass.com/ubb/biggrin.gif I try not to watch much Tv but the stuff I have heard is all finger style.The new Tv show on fox called "Malcom in the Middle" has some really cool fingerstyle R&B funk lines.Sorry to be a snob on the subject but to me there is just no comparison.Oh,one more thing.I dont really understand why these players use a pick with flatwounds.I thought the whole point of using a pick was to get a brighter tone.To me this would create a crappy tone.I think I know the tone your talking about and it does not appeal to me at all.But again,everybody has there own idea about tone.

[This message has been edited by theJello (edited May 04, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by theJello (edited May 04, 2000).]

You know that's one of the reasons I come hear; you guys have fun with debate! I'm in the 'what feels good do it' camp, ouch. I'm a finger style player but enjoy the Yes sound, etc. And although it has been awhile, I'd have to use a pick on Madonna's "Open Your Heart" to play those 16th's.

I think the best solution is that which had been mentioned. Learn how to get the same tone with your fingers. In this case, use your nails on your index and ring fingers as well as 'flipping' one finger(index) for the up tempo 16th notes.

WJ-slowly walking away, feeling small, as he approaches the door to the woodshed.

A pick played on flatwounds is one of my favorite sounds! The notes are a mile wide with really clear articulation and very percussive.

Another great example of this sound - Harry Chapin's "Cat's in the Cradle" played by Don Payne. Man, that bass sound just drives me wild! http://www.talkbass.com/ubb/smile.gif If that's not your bag, so be it but that sound was very much in demand in the '70's studio scene. I'll tell you something : it doesn't matter what crappy piece of dung radio you hear that song on, the bass part jumps out clear as a bell.

And another thing!!... What makes you think you can't control your dynamic range as well with a pick? Just spend some time with it - it's possible to play as quietly as you like or as loudly as you like with a pick. It's no different. Maybe if you practiced your pick technique more, you'd discover it's not nearly as limitted as you make it out to be.

I guess I just can't understand why so many of you guys are so turned off by the pick that you would limit your tonal palatte by excluding that technique. I personally think slapping is the most overused "subtle as a brick" technique there is, but I still do it when required, because even though I have little use for it myself, sometimes it's really best for a given passage.

There are some sounds you can only get with your fingers. There are some sounds you can only get with a pick. There are some sounds you can only get by slapping. Learn all techniques and you'll be a better player.

Sorry I spoke over my head about the flatwound thing.Im not really familiar with it.
I guess for me having a huge aurel palette to draw from is not that big of a deal.If it was I would be practicing my marimba bass right now http://www.talkbass.com/ubb/biggrin.gif
Aside from the fact that I dont think a pick sounds that great and limits what you can play, life is just to short in my opinion to try and master both.Again Im not down on pick players.I think there is some very decent players using them.Ive seen that guy from Beck lay down some seriously slamming **** with a pick.Very happening 16th note grooves.But I have to be honest.If he executed the exact same lines with his fingers I personlly would have been way more impressed.I guess one reason I have this snobby attitude is that I think good finger style playing takes much more skill then good pick playing.Sorry,I guess I have been exposed to one to many(very bad)shred guitar players that have excellent picking technique http://www.talkbass.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

again:rolleyes:

Wow! Rob W, I think you have a winning argument in a losing battle.

It seems like an obvious fact that a pick can get different sounds than fingers (not better or worse, just different), but people take it personally. I am very good with my fingers but I suck with a pick, but that doesnt mean that the picks suck (even "organic" picks, which I've seen made of stone or wood).

This is sorta the same type of argument that some people have against using any signal processing. right....Felix!

I don't hate picks.... I'm an old rocker and I hate effects. (Everybody has his own little problems). I Just have a good amp and if I use my pick I get this kind of Roger Glover, Deep Purple like sound of bass. I know he's no Jacob Patorius, but I just love that kind of sound, and my band members do and the audience does. I think that if everybody enjoys it, that gives me the right to do so. At the other hand, for the more bluesy kind of stuff, Reggae and walking bass lines, I use my fingers. Gives a complete different feel, complete different sound, without touching 1 button on my amp and without stepping on 1 peddal. But, altough nobody seems to agree on anything here, I have to agree with Jim K: I just hate Pickguards. I mean: how can you charge a few thousand bucks for a bassguitar and just cover up the holes with a piece of plastic?

(Ha, ha, ha! I bet I have offended a few million bassists now, can't wait for their venom coming back at me)

Love you all, and peace to the world!!!!

phew, seven years old !

this thread is hilarious... someone refusing to play with a pick because it's not expensive enough :)

who said old comedy doesn't translate through the generations ?

Bassist 1: Pick your nose, and play bass with your fingers.


Bassist 2: I pick my nose with my fingers, so what should I do with my bass?


:hiding:


[note, I play both fingerstyle and pickstyle on bass]

Yeah, well, I am "sad"...again, if my hands can't pull something off, then I need to address that problem.

Of course, nail tone can be similar to some pick tones. IME, some genres call for the bassist to have a "pick+right-hand mute" tone in his/her bag o' tricks. I haven't seen anyone pull *that* tone off with fingers alone.

This coming from a guy who started as a fingers-only jazz and pop player, played a lot of indie rock in the 90's. Now, I'm again playing fingerstyle almost exclusively--not because of dogma, but because the bands I play with hardly ever call for a pick + palm mute tone.

:D

Thanks everyone!
This thread is hilarious!
I say: There's an infinite number of tones out there! Use your fingers, use a pick, use a paperclip, use a banana, use a dead goldfish... I want to hear all those sounds! Bring 'em on!

(A pick doesn't sound organic? Well, maybe some material calls for a "plastic" bass sound! The feel is more important that the tone? Balderdash! The OP is right on the money. You go for the tone first; if the instrument feels awkward, you do a little thing I like to call... PRACTICING!) :rollno:

Yup, this thread is hilarious! HA HA HA HA HA!

:D

maybe some material calls for a "plastic" bass sound!

Well this thread is from 7 years ago - when there were only about 20 people on TB and even less threads to post in! :p

But I still woudn't want a "plastic sound" for any musical situation I would want to be involved in! :smug:

Whatever floats you boat. I don't care. For picky sounds, I'll incorporate the top of my fingernails with my the top of my thumb fingernail for the unstrokes. However, for what it's worth, did you guys watch Flea at the grammy's. He played with his fingers, and then for the chorus, he ran played with a pick. EVERYBODY winner. :)

I think Chuck Rainey also imitates a pick with his fingernails.

But the thing that kills me is this: Isn't it a GOOD thing to want to stretch yourself and try to learn new techniques? Or even to invent new techniques? I just don't quite understand people who are proud of only being able to do one thing.
Personally, fingers "feel like me", "are my personal voice", etc., but when a song calls for a pick, I'm absolutely proud to be demonstrate that I've worked on it sufficiently to be able to pull it off.
Here's my pet example of a sound that cannot be achieved any other way than by a pick: "Baby You're a Rich Man" by the Beatles. I'm sure Paul would've played it with an ashtray if that was the sound he wanted, because he is a dyed-in-the-wool, non-dogmatic experimenter. But no... he used a pick.

Well, maybe we can revisit this thread in 2014. ;)

But the thing that kills me is this: Isn't it a GOOD thing to want to stretch yourself and try to learn new techniques?)

Actually I think it's better to practice one thing and "nail it" - rather than trying to do a bit of everything and not mastering anything! :hmm:

But playing with a pick is hardly new and ground breaking - I did it from the late 70s to mid 80s and then the effects covered everything up anyway - :p

To me it now sounds hackneyed and "dated" - OK a classic sound on things like the Bullitt soundtrack or Pet Sounds etc - but that is a sound "of its time" - that was then - not now!

I use Fingers, Fingernails and a Pick, I find all have a different feel, tone and sound quality and which I use for which song depends entirely upon what the song calls for.

When you are playing in an originals band although the casual listener won't be able to exactly place what it is, they can often tell the difference, and even for those that can't, why would I do something that in my opinion is to the detriment of the song in general, even though the difference can be very slight?

my personal belief on this issue is that you should always challenge yourself to try something knew at all times, never be afraid to think outside the box, if a Pick will work for that song - Go with it. even if the difference between the tone of that and your fingers is so subtle only you know the difference, at least then you can hand on heart say you played what the song needed.

I am still trying to learn to slap (which is harder than I first thought it would be!) and I already have a load of Ideas on how to use it and I will persevere with the technique till I get it and can use it effectivley. Maybe some of you guys who abhorr the idea of using a pick should maybe look a little way beyond the saftey of your box and try something different with an open mind and try and get the most out of it, after all isn't part of the fun in stretching your sonic limits?

Don't cry, I'm not flaming anyone here, just trying to challenge peoples imaginations to try and find a way of doing things differently. first and foremost I have to appreciate that everyone is individual, but it is all about how you approach something, always take it as an opportunity to find something new.

well guys have fun, I will! :bassist:

Pick is definitely a tone tool. Listen to Rock The Casbah by The Clash. Certainly you can play the song with fingers as easy as a pick but getting that tone is only possible with a pick I've found. Song just doesn't sound the same without it.

[QUOTE=Bruce Lindfield;3828343]Actually I think it's better to practice one thing and "nail it" - rather than trying to do a bit of everything and not mastering anything! :hmm:QUOTE]

"Ah, but a man's reach should exceed his grasp - or what's a heaven for?" ~ Robert Browning :D

It continues to amaze me to see the hostility that so many bassists seem to have toward pickstyle playing. The next thing I expect to hear is that Carol Kaye and Paul McCartney were failures in life because they used a pick. It also seems that the people who have the most hostility are the ones who play fingerstyle exclusively. As someone who plays both pickstyle and fingerstyle, it doesn't matter to me. I really don't understand why people get so emotional about this issue.

Actually I think it's better to practice one thing and "nail it" - rather than trying to do a bit of everything and not mastering anything!

"Ah, but a man's reach should exceed his grasp - or what's a heaven for?" ~ Robert Browning :D

What did he know about bass playing!! :p

It continues to amaze me to see the hostility that so many bassists seem to have toward pickstyle playing. The next thing I expect to hear is that Carol Kaye and Paul McCartney were failures in life because they used a pick. It also seems that the people who have the most hostility are the ones who play fingerstyle exclusively. As someone who plays both pickstyle and fingerstyle, it doesn't matter to me. I really don't understand why people get so emotional about this issue.


The above is the only post in this thread that sounds emotional about this issue!! :p

The above is the only post in this thread that sounds emotional about this issue!! :p

You're reading more than is in there. I am more puzzled than emotional. Have you actually read all the posts on this thread? Maybe the word "emotional" is not the right word I should be using, though.

I know he's no Jacob Patorius,


??????For real??????

I can't believe this thread was raised from the dead after 6 1/2 years.

The main reason I don't use a pick is that I feel it hinders my playing.
I guess I could get a lot better, fast, if I'd trained just a little, but I get along fine with my fingers.

Some stuff is easier played with a pick, I'll admit, but I find most of what I play is much easier fingerstyle.

??????For real??????

I can't believe this thread was raised from the dead after 6 1/2 years.

Seems like this happens a lot on TB. Well, while this thread is alive, I'd say that the pick should be used out of personal taste. I think the pick can be used very effectively as long as sufficient practice is given. Out of personal experience, I find myself giving up on a technique and making excuses not to use it, just because I haven't practiced it enough.:bassist: So, if you dislike the pick, keep using it. It'll probably grow on you eventually.:cool: :hyper:
-----------------------------------------------------------
No pain, no gain. No bass, no music.

This is a 7 year old thread? Holy cow 0_o

Do picks still cost 15 cents in America? Because I live in London and picks cost 50p each! (about $1)... though you can usually get them 3 for a pound :)

Anyway, isn't that a good thing picks are so cheap? Let's look at it...

Bass = $2000
Amp = $2000
Pick = $2000

$6000? :O

I prefer it when the pick is 50p ^^

Anyway, in the days of Tool... can anyone get Justin's sound with fingers? Go on, try :P
I rarely ever use pick (sometimes screw around with it and practice a bit), but if I'm playing a Tool songs, there's a pick in my hand :P)