I've been reading posts on volume, and I wonder if you guys can play a jazz gig totally acoustic or if you know of anybody that can play with a loud drumer, trumpet, Guitar, piano etc, the reason why I ask is because every now and then I run into a purist that want me to do that, but if find it very difficult, you have to raise your action way too much so now intonation may suffer because you still don't hear yourself and on top of that is hard playing at fast tempos, I've been playing for over 20 years and I think that there is only so much you can give, I recently compared my bass with a Pollman and two Juzeks and my bass was considerably louder, even though that may not mean a lot but is the reference I have, thanks for all your help in advance.
Bijoux

I've heard plenty of people talk about being able to play acoustically with a loud drummer, but have never actually heard anyone do it. When I saw Christian McBride playing with Jeff Watts last year, he had a mic on his bass and I still had trouble hearing him.

Acoustically speaking, the sound pressure from a double bass can't compete with the sound produced by a drum; suffice it to say that strings are plucked with fingers and a drum is hit by sticks.
I learnt from my experience that even if you have a good technique you have to support the sound with an amp properly adjusted near you and in many case it can be just sufficient for you.

I've never seen and listened to great musicians in a real jazz situation without a good amplification system.

I think it also depends on the TYPE of drums being played and what tool the drummer is using to hit the drums (i.e. sticks, brushes, hands...). I've played with and acoustic guitar and a snare with brushes (accoustically that is) and have no problem being heard. If I was playing at a club though, I'd use an amp or go through the PA.

I've played un-miked with varying degrees of success. First, you have to have the technique, and that involves the left hand just as much as the right hand.

You have to be in a good acoustical environment. One that's not dead and where the audience isn't trying to talk over the band.

You also have to be performing with musicians who understand dynamics and how to acheive a balanced ensemble sound on their own. Most cats think a balanced sound is acheived by playing however they want into a mic and leveling it out using electronic controls. I find most drummers think they can play as hard as they like and the rest of the band should play up to their volume. They have no idea of how to control their stroke. Modern amplification capabilities have made a lot of musicians very lazy in regards to developing the ability to play with an ensemble naturally. IMO, that's a shortcoming in their musicianship.

Originally posted by David Kaczorowski
You also have to be performing with musicians who understand dynamics and how to acheive a balanced ensemble sound on their own...Modern amplification capabilities have made a lot of musicians very lazy in regards to developing the ability to play with an ensemble naturally. IMO, that's a shortcoming in their musicianship.
Amen. Players who can't/won't adjust to the group dynamic level are inferior musicians. Period.

And I'm always amazed by the brain-dead drummer who seems to think that by playing loud, he's transformed into Elvin Jones.

When Mulligan started his first piano-less quartet (Carson Smith on bass), it was prior to the use of bass amps. He ordered the group to play at the dynamic level of the bass. No discussion.

Hi guys thank you so much for your help and for sharing your experience.
Bijoux

Originally posted by Don Higdon

And I'm always amazed by the brain-dead drummer who seems to think that by playing loud, he's transformed into Elvin Jones.



That's interesting..My drummer always thought he was transformed into Art Blakey :)
Seriously though everything Krackhouskey and Donosaurus said was on the money, If you are playing with people who understand dynamics, then acoustic balance is an attainable goal.

"Players who can't/won't adjust to the group dynamic level are inferior musicians. Period."[quote/Don]

I totally agree, Don.

Pkr2

Personally I have great admiration for musicians who understand dynamics, are conscious that balance is an attainable goal and, most of all, are able to play in completely acoustic gigs also in large and crowded spaces.

But, as musician and as listener, I often noticed, how can I say ..., an increasing sense of meager respect for the other on the stage.

Not to speak about the audience towards musicians leading a jazz acoustic gig in small clubs.

Originally posted by Boppingtheory
Acoustically speaking, the sound pressure from a double bass can't compete with the sound produced by a drum; suffice it to say that strings are plucked with fingers and a drum is hit by sticks.


Well it seems that the solution is to have the drummer hit his drums with his fingers and to pluck the bass with a stick.

-dh

So what's the chicken-egg pardigm here:

Did drummers feel free to play louder (as is their natural inclination) as bass amplification methods improved?

OR

Did bass players necessarily have to improve amplification methods as drummers got louder?

Originally posted by Jason Sypher
It is possible to play unamped and by far the best for the music.

Jason, that's a perfectly valid opinion and approach but it's not the only one.

I love playing with musicians who listen (as do all who posted above). I also love playing with musicians who are able to, and actually do, utilize the full dynamic range of their instruments. Drums, cymbals, pianos, trumpets, saxophones, trombones . . . they're all capable of playing louder than plucked, unamplified basses.

I don't want my bandmates to duck down for me -- the fact that my unamplified volume is softer than theirs is my problem, not theirs. I hope I've found a combination of pickups, amp and speaker that succeeds in solving that problem. If you use a different approach that works for you, great! If your solution is to tell everyone to quiet down to match you, I suspect that you gain some things and lose some others.

Originally posted by Samuel
If your solution is to tell everyone to quiet down to match you, I suspect that you gain some things and lose some others.

As I said in my prior post, this is precisely what Gerry Mulligan said to his quartet. So what was lost?

Originally posted by Mike Goodbar
So what's the chicken-egg pardigm here:

Did drummers feel free to play louder (as is their natural inclination) as bass amplification methods improved?

OR

Did bass players necessarily have to improve amplification methods as drummers got louder?
Both. We now have the ludicrous situation where drummers want their own microphones.

Originally posted by Don Higdon


As I said in my prior post, Gerry Mulligan said to his quartet {turn down to my volume}. So what was lost?

Others feel the same excitement playing their instruments at full volume that we feel playing our basses at full volume. Well, I can't say that drummers feel EXACTLY like bass players ;)

It's great to work with drummers who know how to keep momentum and excitement moving at lower volume levels. Sometimes, though, I want them to bash like Elvin when I'm soloing, so I can enjoy that ride! I can't do it without an amp. If others can, my hat is off to them . . . I've simply chosen to spend my time developing other aspects (or, more accurately, hacking off and eating junk food while they were practicing).

What I really hate is when the drummer ALWAYS drops the bottom out when it's my solo. If done without variation, it's not musical and assists listeners in yawning through my incredibly-exciting, earth-shattering, deeply-profound contributions to the jazz canon (yeah right ;> ).

The bottom line is, it's good to play soft and it's good to play loud, as long as musicians are listening and music is being made.

Loud, and playing sans-amplification aren't mutually exclusive.

Also, if you're already playing loud, there's nowhere to go dynamically but down. But besides, with a good bass and good technique, you should be able to pretty much hold your own with any drummer except when he's bashing the crap out of his instrument.

An un-amped band makes for a much more intimate listening experience too.

Ed, thanks for articulating everything I failed to communicate in the course of multiple posts. You communicated my thoughts exactly.

Congratulations on the pad! When's party?

The gig went really well; maybe our best yet. Unfortunately the audience was tiny. The whole joint was dead.

Originally posted by Ed Fuqua
...sticks and brushes are not a volume thing, they're a color thing. You should be able to play at pretty much any volume level with either.


Remo should stamp this quote on every drum head they produce!!!!

One of the drummers I am working with now just cant figure it out. After a year of me bitch'n about his volume and lack of dynamics- what did he do? He went out and bought a $3,000 electric set to "solve the problem".
Now that he has a volume knob, he is still playing at the same volume as with his acoustics.

Pay attention drummers, your ears and hands hold the key, quit blaming lack of musicianship on the wrong gauge of stick, the wrong drum size, "that guy uses brushes", etc,etc,etc. Learn to get your tone at different volumes. Listen to the music for a change. And yes, we hate those crazy drum shields.

(This of course is directed only to those drummers with one volume.)

It is good to vent.

Tell your drummer to attach weights to his arms! That oughtta do the trick;)

Seriously though, some drummers try to show restaint but end up like Animal from the Muppet Show. :)

tisk tisk...

Ed:
A simple e-mail and the audience would have been seven. Well, could have.

Originally posted by Jason Sypher
Well, it was just a suggestion!?

Okay. I'm playing a gig tonight at the Clifton Center on Frankfort Ave, 7-11 P.M.



In Louisville, KY....






See you there! :)

Chris:
Is there an exit from I64 for Payne St., or should I go up South Ewing to Payne?

Ewing. DEFINITELY Ewing...There is a Payne street exit but (forgive me) it's a pain.

See you there!

...so last night I try out for this big band. The old bass player is also there. He has an EB through a combo amp. I bring my Juzek with gut cranked way off the board with no amp or mic... Blew that EB away. :cool: Take that bassgeetarplayerssss.... (hope he doesn't bring a larger amp next time)

I've found that string height doesn't have a whole lot to do with the volume that you get out of the bass. It's all on you. I play Spirocores at 5mm and 8mm, and from HOURS of having to produce volume acoustically in NYC over the last few years, I'm getting more sound out of the bass than I ever have. A friend of mine plays an American Standard, and had a set of Weichs (and later a Golden Spiral / Weich combo) and gets about twice the volume that I do from my Italian 7/8, with the strings so low that I can't pull the G string without getting the D and somtimes the A with the same stroke. He is a bigger guy, and I think this helps somewhat.

What I would add is this, I can get a lot of sound, but as volume increases, quality diminishes. At a certain point you are just overplaying the strings. (Yes -- you CAN overplay Spirocores. :)) But, the more I play acoustically, the louder I'm able to get the nice sound louder.

Here's my bit on why balance is so difficult in your average jazz group:

When you take a device that was designed to communicate with neighboring villages and scare the **** out of the enemy, and try combine it with musical instruments, you have balance problems.

Originally posted by Ray Parker


Here's my bit on why balance is so difficult in your average jazz group:

When you take a device that was designed to communicate with neighboring villages and scare the **** out of the enemy, and try combine it with musical instruments, you have balance problems.


Word. This is why my ears are still ringing from last night's gig.

Originally posted by Ray Parker
I've found that string height doesn't have a whole lot to do with the volume that you get out of the bass. It's all on you. I play Spirocores at 5mm and 8mm, and from HOURS of having to produce volume acoustically in NYC over the last few years, I'm getting more sound out of the bass than I ever have.

Also can depend on what you are using. When using the Velvet 180's, I had my strings vert high and with the low tension could get a loud, clear, sound. When I went to the Oliv D/G and Eudoxa A/E the sound was a little "thuddy" until I lowered the action some. It is not exactly low (I don't think that would be possible with big gut strings), but it is signifigantly lower than it was. I don't have anything at home that measures millimeters, so I don't know what it is exactly, but I would guess that I went from around 12mm to around 8 on the higher strings, and from about 15 to about 10mm on the low strings. (I hope that's close, I'm looking at a ruler in a desk and converting inches to mm by x by 25.4)

Part of my point is that there is a point of diminishing returns on both too high and too low action. Too high can have a lot of tension and actually produce less sound. What Farmerdude was experiencing and what I experienced was that very low tension strings could take the higher action BECAUSE they were so low tension. However, I hate really low action because I can't seem to get my finger around it to get really good "pull" on the string, and I end up overplaying the string at that height. I find that at a low action, I can play faster, but with a decrease in volume. It's all a trade off, IMHO.

Monte

PS Of course what Ray says is true; you have to develop good pizz technique. It's not as simple as lowering or raising my strings.

Originally posted by Ray Parker
When you take a device that was designed to communicate with neighboring villages and scare the **** out of the enemy, and try combine it with musical instruments, you have balance problems.
You played in a band that had bagpipes?

Are bagpipes actually loud? Or just that annoying? Psychoacoustics is a strange thing....

My favorite line about bagpipes is that they sound the same after you've learned to play them as before.

When I hear bagpipes I want to hit someone...explanation= back when I played college football we had a couple guys (in skirts) lead us onto the field at home games...tell me that doesn't get ya fired up:rolleyes:

Originally posted by farmerdude
When I hear bagpipes I want to hit someone...explanation= back when I played college football we had a couple guys (in skirts) lead us onto the field at home games...tell me that doesn't get ya fired up:rolleyes:

Geeez, I take it this football team was not from the South:rolleyes: I dare any man wearing a skirt to run into a college stadium in Tuscaloosa, Baton Rouge, Starkville, Athens, etc.

Monte

pipers are people too, (they just always play with their bags)

So Ray, do work with Rufus Harley often?

Rufus Harley?

Originally posted by Ray Parker
Rufus Harley?

www.aaen.com/rufus-harley/

Wow. Illegal? I would hope.

There was a guy who used to drag one of those things into the jazz club in my hometown. Peer pressure put an end to that.

Well it seems that the solution is to have the drummer hit his drums with his fingers and to pluck the bass with a stick.

-dh

You WACK the drummer over his head with your bass and finish the Gig without him. :)

I played lots of un-amped gigs when i was in a "hot" string band. It sometimes worked, depending on the room. We used to play for college house parties, just park it in the corner with plenty of beer and try to play loud enough to be heard!

I played lots of un-amped gigs when i was in a "hot" string band. It sometimes worked, depending on the room. We used to play for college house parties, just park it in the corner with plenty of beer and try to play loud enough to be heard!

Hm--I'm trying to image "Louie Louie" as played by Stephane Grapelli and Django Reinhardt.

I play in a big band with a drummer in his '60's who's been playing this stuff all his life. His dynamic range is amazing, from barely audible to knockyerfaceoff. At different times he uses sticks, metal or plastic brushes, and these things that look like a bundle of bamboo, and sound half way between a brush and a stick (bricks?!..). He usually brings only a 24" bass drum, a snare, high hat and one ride cymbal to rehearsal. (full kit for gigs.) I'm constantly amazed at the variety of sounds he can get out of one snare.

Yes, it can be done...

One of things that I've found particularly helpful for not so well educated drummers is to instill in them, full responsibility for the dynamics. That is, make it clear that they have the greatest dynamic range of any instrument in the band and that the dynamics of the band falls on them. If anybody drops down in volume but the drummer does not then it doesn't matter. If the drummer does go quiet then the rest of the band will follow suit. Give them that responsibility and often they will step up to it and make that role their own.

I once had the pleasure of a drummer asking me, "Hey man, can you turn your amp up?"

I said, "No man, can you turn your drums DOWN?" :p

I once had the pleasure of a drummer asking me, "Hey man, can you turn your amp up?"

I said, "No man, can you turn your drums DOWN?" :pMike, I've had that pleasure more than once. During the 'acoustic days' the quote well known to all the band members was, "If you can't hear the bass, you're too loud!"

That's about the conclusion I've drawn from my experience into acoustic and amplified sounds when we're talking Double Bass and VENUE acoutics! I've just unloaded the van from last nights gig and, really are feeling quite frustrated with the on going battle with different room acoustics / and the continuous battle with trying for a GOOD sound from my amp.
So we (the three piece) agree to try the acoustic approach.Everything sounds Good / we're all smiles then..... The room begins to fills to about 150 people....they start to chat...ever louder... and by the third number the level of chatter is way over our acoustic level so, we do the only thing possible I crank up the GK400RB . the keyboardist goes for the volume on his Peavy and the drummer changes the brushes for broom sticks and, from that point on... the TRUE bass acoustic sound goes out the window and once again the night becomes an electronics nightmare! Situation Normal......NOT! :bawl: