Hello Mr. Neher, I wanted to get your opinion on if I should change bass teachers because I do not feel I am progressing fast enough and would like to have a top quality teacher than my current one even though I like my current teacher. The main reason is because I did not make all state this year and practiced over 3 months with my teacher and still did not make it. thanks for your hopefully prompt response.

Hello Mr. Neher, I wanted to get your opinion on if I should change bass teachers because I do not feel I am progressing fast enough and would like to have a top quality teacher than my current one even though I like my current teacher. The main reason is because I did not make all state this year and practiced over 3 months with my teacher and still did not make it. thanks for your hopefully prompt response.

Hi !
You have presented a tough question. Without knowing the repertory you covered in 3 months, how long you have been playing the bass, how long you have been taking private lessons, what the course of methods the teacher is/was using, and even, perhaps, the training of your teacher and what your expectations and goals are ... I think it would be very wrong of me to suggest a change of teachers. And I am no psychologist (my wife is though so maybe she should answer), but from the tone of your question, it seems you have already answered your question and just want confirmation. If you think you are ready for a different teacher, tell your present teacher, and ask him/her what he/she believes is in your best interest. It is, of course, YOUR decision in the end. I recommend MANY teachers. I have had about fifty, from which about ten have been really important to me. And everytime I hold a bass event here in Arizona, I learn from each of the invited experts. You will learn all your life (hopefully) and it is GOOD to have many teachers, if you can absorb it all and sort it all out to make the best of the information for you. If you have a specific goal in mind (say, to be a member of the Chicago Symphony) then go study with the person that is the closest to that goal (so, study with the Principal Bassist of the Chicago Sym). If All-State is your goal, be sure to study with one of the teachers who has judged the bassists at the All-State auditions, and it usually takes more than three months!!!!
Best to you!
PN:)

I started practicing all-state when they posted the music, so the time is not an issue, and it was probably more like 4 or 5 months. Btw, I have decided to try out a potential teacher and see if he can get me to where I need to go. Thanks for your input!

Glad to be some help. Let us know how you do ....
PN:)

well, I had my first lesson today with my new teacher and he uses a completely method called I believe the Rabbath method of playing and I'm going to have to get a laborie endpin and almost start from scratch on the bass-besides knowing all the notes and positions etc.- just thought I'd give you an update.

Hey, that's cool... I sincerely hope it works out to your expectations!
More on Rabbath in a few articles I have written and one by James Reel in Strings Magazine may help enlighten "The Method" of Rabbath, by getting to know him a bit. Double Bassist Magazine published an intrview article about Rabbath a few issues back that I wrote. And the Strings Magazine one was about a year ago. I'd guess some Internet searching will take you to them. The ISB has back issues about him too.
Best of Luck! And Happy Holidays!:hyper:

yeah, my new teacher took has been taking lessons from rabbath for the last eight years so it won't be any problem finding information about Rabbath, also, is it possible to use Simandl fingerings on a bass with a laborie endpin?

yeah, my new teacher took has been taking lessons from rabbath for the last eight years so it won't be any problem finding information about Rabbath, also, is it possible to use Simandl fingerings on a bass with a laborie endpin?

Yes of course. You can use your nose if you want. Fingerings are not end-pin specific (generally). You may find the balance of the bass with a bent pin a bit different and therefore chose fingerings that remain the the upper positions longer, but overall the pin should release tension you had/have holding the bass, alowing great flexibility in fingering sequences and the amount of musclel used.
Best of luck!

Mr. Neher,
Would you find a laborie endpin/eggpin/bent endpin to be of use for an orchestral player who only sits?

All the best,
Alex

Mr. Neher,
Would you find a laborie endpin/eggpin/bent endpin to be of use for an orchestral player who only sits?

All the best,
Alex

Generally, no. Sitting is "emulated' by using the bent pin, it releases the weight of the bass on the left hand to act like you are sitting (mostly). Unless you want a very steep angle (upward) to the bass, say if you like to sit way back and you play German bow, a bent pin for sitting is not recommended. BUt, hey, I know players that sit and stand in rehearsals. Going back and forth with pins is impractical, so they just leave the bent one in.... but on the concert it is all standing.
Ciao and Happy Holidays
PN

There are players in the National Symphony that have the Laborie endpin and have two endpins, one long for when they stand and one very short for when they sit in the orchestra. I know Ali Yazdanfar did this and I think Jeff Weisner tried it. I'm not sure if either of them are still using it in the orchestra.

Patrick, as long as we are on the topic of teachers and endpins, two of my most burning questions right now, I would appreciate your opinion on my situation.

I just started with a new teacher in a university setting. I really like this teacher as far as a good personal fit in working together, and I am making progress, but it has been so discouraging going almost back to square one after the four years I have been playing and my history of being swtiched around from Simandal to Rabbath, then back to traditional Simandl, due to previous teacher changes suggested by my previous school, and now to this teacher at this university who has his own methods, kind of a conglomerate of methods, but definitely not pro-Rabbath. Since going to my first lessons, its been all about how I have deep gaps in my learning and have to get back to basics. I don't know why I have deep gaps in my learning because I studied with some of the best of the best teachers I would be proud to mention in another context. I did a lot of practicing on every lesson assignment I was given and never ever got the kind of feedback about my bad playing techniques that I have gotten recently at this university.

I am beginning to wonder if switching teachers has delayed my progress, or if I am just being impatient and should be happy I have a new teacher who is a good fit and, yes, we have to spend a few months going over basic technique his way. I keep wondering, have I been wasting my time? Were my previous teachers really a waste of time? Why does every teacher seem to have his or her own way and dismiss other ways? I spent last year going through the Simandl Etudes and working on Hrabe exercises, and now they are basically dismissed as just something that was made for gut strings, and we need to move on to other things. But, what we are moving onto is nothing cutting edge, its old stuff that's out of print half of the time.

I guess my question is, acknowledging I have had too many teachers, is why can't teachers adapt this attitude of distilling the best from all these methods? Why does it have to be, Rabbath vs. Simandl, dissing his etudes as just made for gut strings. That was a strong year of Simandl work. And another year plus of Rabbath work. All dismissed.

And, now, I am being asked to give my my bent endpin. My teacher is a former bent endpin person and changed back to a straight endpin and thinks this is superior. I already cannot stand it, and, especially for long orchestral rehearsals, I want my bent endpin. I am really over the edge over this proposition. The reasoning has something to do with not having good stability with the bent endpin and not having it adjusted right.

I am trying to look at this in a positive way, but, believe me, it is difficult as times to see it that way and I have doubts that this university setting is right for me anyway. I really think the right teacher is the most important think is a school scenario, but maybe I am not considering other things or am missing some major points here. Thanks for any feedback.

First, jgbass, let me say thanks for the long and thoughtful thread / question(s). It is a time in your life when questions arise a lot and may never be answered. Partly you have to allow that, in order to not go insane. Life in music will likely bring you a lot of frustrations, AND elations. There is, IMO, always reward to working diligently in music.

But your teacher (ANY teacher, ANY method) is only a guide. You are the one and only person that can take the steps for yourself, forward or not. You are the one and only person that for you can allow yourself to progress in the direction you want to go. A teacher simply points different ways to go, gives you insights that you my not yet have, provides opinions that you may have not yet considered. In observing players, you also gain "ways" of doing things and reaching your musical goals. You can learn SOMETHING from every teacher, and every player, whether you agree with what you see or are told or not. You will progress if you chose to, in spite of or in concurrance with your teacher. So, no you have not wasted your time with any teacher or in any endeavor, if you have learned from him/her/it.

There is a lot of mis-information about all methods out there. People who are ignorant of a subject and yet profess to know about it, do exist in all fields of study. You will run into a lot of them in a university... some are faculty. They are all human! Remember to "weigh" the source of criticism with what your experiences are. So, you will experience say; some bassist that you really admire (their playing), you take a lesson from and find he/she cannot teach what he/she can do. Ignore the teaching and really observe and figure-out the playing. You will also run into those who can teach really well and cannot play (anymore... for example my former beloved teacher, David Walter. He was the best teacher and the most thoughtful musician I have ever known, but his playing when I studied with him was not stellar.) Rabbath is a great example of a musician who's playing is amazing, and though his teaching was immature in the early 80s, it has evolved to be really thoughtful and detailed. The method books are NOT self-explanatory and many teachers do not know how to use the books, or understand the approach, so it is easier to shrug it off. Simandl is clearly written and explained and has been taught for decades. Both are valuable, as is Bottesini, Bille, Streicher, Green, Hertl, Findeisen, Posta, and countless others. Being OPEN to all methods will really allow you to excellerate your performance ability.

I believe it is important to support a student's individual strengths and identify the weaknesses, and therefor move those toward strengths. It sounds as if your opinions are strong, but are they backed-up by action, are they supported by research and thoughtfulness? If so, you should support your strengths. Be able to say that, for YOU, a bent endpin works... show yourself that when playing with it you are free, comfortable, virtuosic, professionally adept. If you can feel the same way when playing on a straight pin...GREAT! (that was my goal and I finally feel equally comfortable on bent or straight, but it took more than three years of bent-playing to allow me to understand the balance of the bass when standing, as I was a sitting player for 25 years!), but if not, then research the reasons why or why-not, for YOURSELF, not to please a teacher. In otherwords, be true to yourself in all situations: playing, dealing with people, taking tests, interacting with life; and you will find that the unknowns are easier to swallow. And dealing with people that you respect who dismiss something you believe in, will be easier as well. You cannot change the opinions of others, but you can adjust yours in any way that you feel is true. So, relax, enjoy your revelations and immersion in knowledge. No need to sway others in your direction, since they will come your way only if they want to. And you will find that you become resolved: peaceful and virtuosic.
Good luck to you!!!! And best for the holidays.:hyper:
Patrick

Patrick,

Thank you so much for your thoughtful response. Your words arrive on the day of my jury at the university where everyone had their opinions to give and I for reasons not understood by me fully, I did not get into the performing organization I really wanted. These are opinions, you're right, not facts.As an example, one jurer thought my time was great on Beethoven's 7th; another thought it was off.

I need to rethink my teacher experiences and I think I need to be the one to distill the best from each experience. Good point about there being a lot of misinformation out there. I was at the Arizona Bass Festival when Rabbath was there a few years ago, and his information was so valuable, but here's someone who who ends up being talked about in a way that reflects a lot of misinfomration.

My current teacher actually has stated several times that he wants to help me find what works best for me, those things that are my style, the interpretation of the piece that comes from me, so I think he is on the right track in many ways, although I will never agree with his dismissal of Rabbath's technques. But that's OK, that's his opinion and maybe I will someday have something valuable to share with him about what I know about Rabbath's techniques.

The more I am here at this university, the more I am starting to toot my own horn in a nice way about what I want to experience here. After all, I am the one spending many many hours a week practicing. I have a lot of choices. Any time I spend with a teacher is small in proportion to my time with the instrument. I think I still have a lot to learn about making this university experience a good experience, and your response has been very helpful and there is much to think about. Thanks again!

Hi !
You have presented a tough question. Without knowing the repertory you covered in 3 months, how long you have been playing the bass, how long you have been taking private lessons, what the course of methods the teacher is/was using, and even, perhaps, the training of your teacher and what your expectations and goals are ... I think it would be very wrong of me to suggest a change of teachers. And I am no psychologist (my wife is though so maybe she should answer), but from the tone of your question, it seems you have already answered your question and just want confirmation. If you think you are ready for a different teacher, tell your present teacher, and ask him/her what he/she believes is in your best interest. It is, of course, YOUR decision in the end. I recommend MANY teachers. I have had about fifty, from which about ten have been really important to me. And everytime I hold a bass event here in Arizona, I learn from each of the invited experts. You will learn all your life (hopefully) and it is GOOD to have many teachers, if you can absorb it all and sort it all out to make the best of the information for you. If you have a specific goal in mind (say, to be a member of the Chicago Symphony) then go study with the person that is the closest to that goal (so, study with the Principal Bassist of the Chicago Sym). If All-State is your goal, be sure to study with one of the teachers who has judged the bassists at the All-State auditions, and it usually takes more than three months!!!!
Best to you!
PN:)

Hi Mr. Neher, I just thought I'd let you know that I made All-State this year and that I am very happy I chose to choose teachers-I have learned so much-. Thank you for your advice.

Hello thedbassist. Do you know of any exceptional double bass (or even electric bass) teachers near Riverview? By the way, congratulations on making all-state.