Well here is another sad story for the week. I just discovered that the bass bar on my Kay has come unglued the last 4"s or so on the end pin side. Now, taking off the top is expensive work. Is there any trick way to glue and clamp the bar without taking the top off? If not, should I play the bass in this condition?

If you like your bass, have it repaired as soon as possible. Under the pressure of the strings the belly will begin to collapse along the F-hole, just like not having a soundpost would do on the other side.

Wow this has been a real bad week for the DB.
I think I will lock mine in the closet.

Ouch!!!

I took my bridge off after reading your comment David. Thanks for the info.

Unfortunately if 4 inches of the glue has failed the rest of it is probably ready to pull off. A good test, with no tension on the top, would be reach in and well, just try and rip it off. If the glue is failing it will probably come right off. If you can't get a grip on the bass bar get a helper with really long fingers who can reach in. My teenage son can easily grab the bass bar on my Swingmaster. I can barely touch it! Kays and Englehardts have a little bigger F-hole than most. You do need to look with a mirror and make sure the inner veneer isn't tearing away with it. If the veneer looks like it is peeling STOP. If the bass bar does just peel right off at least you know for sure the top or back has to come off for the repair. If the bass bar seems tight except for the 4 inches that has come loose and the top and the back seem nice and tight rig up a post that will put pressure on the bass bar when inserted and have it ready to go. Slip some slow dry two part epoxy in the split with whatever rigged up stick you can come up with. (the hard part) Now insert the post as a clamp. Is there any trick? Well it is all done with smoke and mirrors. Minus the smoke!

Epoxy?

Sure, after all the gymnastics of getting in there I would want to be darn sure it's going to stick and stay put. If the rest of the bass bar comes loose except for this repair I would use epoxy on that also. It's not meant to ever come apart. Is it?

Originally posted by farmerdude
Well here is another sad story for the week. I just discovered that the bass bar on my Kay has come unglued the last 4"s or so on the end pin side. Now, taking off the top is expensive work. Is there any trick way to glue and clamp the bar without taking the top off? If not, should I play the bass in this condition?

Good you removed the tension. Take it to a good luthier for an evaluation. They may be able to glue it without taking off the top. It's been done, but it will depend on the condition of the rest of the bass/bar connection.

Do you use hide glue or epoxy to attach a bass bar?

Hide glue is the norm. I, me personally would use epoxy. At least on a plywood bass that didn't follow any traditional rules of instrument making when they were gluing up those plys.

Hey thanks for the info Wellspal. I never thought of using a post as a clamp. It may have worked in this case. Hard to say. ...a little update on this bass... I took the top off and everything looks ok. Just the 6" or so needs glue and a few patches along the lid. Showed it to a luthier friend and he agreed on a permanent glue (as Wellspal said) since we did not want the bar to ever come loose. I would not do this on a carved. In the case that it would come loose, the laminate would more that likely come with it and would need a new layer of laminate. That would be worse case scenario....so now that the bar was easy to fix...I need to figure how to glue the top on again:D

You're a braver man than I (or more luthieriologically inclined!).

Originally posted by vanderbrook
(or more luthieriologically inclined!).

Youve met me. You know better than that.:)
I guess I did ok for my first removal.

Once again hide glue is the standard for gluing the top. I just glued my dads' 40's Regal plywood back on with exterior carpenters glue (Elmers) and lots of pipe clamps with the plastic protective covrs on them. No bass police came to the door and it sounds great!
But yeah, I wouldn't do it that way on a carved bass. Glad I could help.

I guess I did ok for my first removal.
Does that mean you've got the top back on? Or is it too early to congratulate you on the reassembly?

Originally posted by wellspal
Hide glue is the norm. I, me personally would use epoxy. At least on a plywood bass that didn't follow any traditional rules of instrument making when they were gluing up those plys.

Glueing anything with epoxy makes it so permanent, that it's impossible to take it apart for repairs in the future. Think about it...

What surprises me is that any luthier worth his/her salt would make such a recommendation. I've always been told that hide glue should be used... always... NEVER EVER USE EPOXY! ...don't even THINK of using epoxy!

- Wil

I can just see Jeff Bollbach, poised over the keyboard, coiled for the strike....

Originally posted by vanderbrook

Does that mean you've got the top back on? Or is it too early to congratulate you on the reassembly?

I'll say it agian, I guess I did ok for my first removal. ;)

Uh-oh, here come the bass police now. Before all the purist in the crowd start a lynch mob let's remember what we are talking about here. A plywood bass starts out as a sheet of plywood in a gigantic factory in southern Indiana. The plys are glued together with PVA glue. (poly-vinyl-something) The reason they use this particular glue is that it is permanent. Will not re-melt. When the plywood is dampened, heated and clamped into a mold at the Englehardt-Link factory in Elk Grove Village Illinois they really don't want those plys coming apart. However when they glue all the pretty pieces together they do use hide glue just in case you want to open that baby up. So with all that in mind I am really not going to lose any sleep if I know my bass bar is permanately glued. As for the top and back, well I would definetly stick with hide glue. The 40's Regal I used carpenters glue on gets alot of abuse and is stored half the time in a basement.

I agree to an extent with Healthyfriend but recommend further thought. Being a "purist" regarding a plywood may on occasion be taking it too far. However, there are no permanent repairs and one has to always consider what happens if the repair fails. Basically we're looking at a choice of hide glue, aliphatic resins, or epoxy. Hide glue, while those who got to read my rant know I have a fetish for, would not be my recommendation. It has poor gap filling properties and only excells in fine joinery. This is usually not the case with a ply. Plus it is not really compatible with the glue that was originally used which is almost certainly an aliphatic resin[carpenter glue]. Epoxy may hold but for how long? Then what do you do ? It cannot be cleaned out-plus it is very thick and heavy which could affect the tone. I would recommend the carpenter glue for the bar. After it is glued I would put a strip of linen over the end of the bar in such a way that it forms a "U" over the bar and extends 1.5centimeters onto the top oneither side of the bar. Impregnate this with hide glue as insurance.

Basically we're looking at a choice of hide glue, aliphatic resins, or epoxy.

What about a couple lag screws through the top?:)

Seriously, aliphatic resin is known to elasticize over time as does epoxy to a lesser extent.

farmerdude,

Call Keith George (816) 630-0892

http://members.aol.com/MandoKinet/MandoKinetics/GMS.html

He has done a lot of Kay bass bar repairs. He's very friendly, might tell you how to do it over the phone. Doesn't charge much if you have him do it.

I really don't want to beat this into the ground but what the heck, it's so much fun. Jeff, your worried about a film of epoxy as thick as well let's say FILM (which would also be the same thickness as the carpenters glue) changing the sound of the instrument but you would add a linen u-bolt to the end of the bass bar? I am not talking about 2 part bondo here. Yes epoxy can fail in the future just like the others if the wood is dirty but it is not any more difficult to clean up than say dried carpenters glue. I am not a bass bar gluing expert but I have reglued a million chairs. This is how I became a lover of epoxy. It holds better. Lasts longer. When I was a member of the Guild Of American Luthiers in 1979 at the convention in Winfield Kansas there was a guitar maker there giving a talk on how he attached his necks to the bodies with nothing at all except epoxy. Not even a dovetail joint, a BUTT joint with just epoxy! The two part stuff that calls for one hour clamping time. I believe he was actually hanged in the town square! But seriously these were expensive beautiful instruments. Think of the tension on that joint. I know he wrote at least one book but I never followed his career. I think his name was David Russell Young. I'd be interested if anyone knows of the condition of his epoxied guitars, 20 some years later. On a similar thread I've often wondered how a plywood bass would sound glued together with a super flexible adhesive like silicone or poly-seamseal, in the spirit of keeping everything vibrating.

I know-get a life. Wellspal, Youv'e got me on the tonal diff. If there were a difference it would be surely be infinitesimal. But I wouldn't say i was worried about that. I do worry about epoxy removal and I guarantee that I've had about a million % more experience re epoxy removal from basses than you. i don't mean offense it's just an unfortunate fact. Re-gluing failed epoxy joints is a cumulative nightmare. The very first rule of lutherie is never do something that can't be undone.
Well, pal-You have cast dispersions regarding linen and tone. This I cannot accept as linen and I are very close. Linen was used by Stradivari on all his instruments-all the Itie greats used it! It is very compatible with wood in it's tonality. A linen "u-bolt"[funny] would also have an infinitesimal effect on tone and it would give an added measure of insurance. If you visit my website there are some pics of my use of linen on an Italian restoration-let me know what you think. jeff

I have nothing against linen repairs. I was just making the tonality point. As a woodworker, cabinetmaker and occasional luthier for the past 30 years I do know something about gluing two pieces of wood together. If you are running across epoxied repairs that are a nightmare to clean-up I would suspect that they were executed really wrong in the first place and the same repair done with carpenters glue would be equally as difficult to clean-up. After all you're not soaking someones bass bar in water to get the old carpenters glue off, are you? Aren't you scraping and sanding no matter what the glue? I think whipping out arbitrary rules about lutherie can be misleading and make you sound, no offense here, condescending.

I think your web site is very impressive. You might want to revise that no carpenter glue ever used here line though. After all you are recommending it here.

I especially like your "wacky" wood tailpieces. Really nice touch. Have you ever tried osage orange for anything? Farmers used it as a hedge around their fields. Very colorful and gnarly when cut up. I'll send you some hunks if I ever come across some.

BTW Jeff, I can't get to the Rant on your web site. It just comes up with something called 404 error.

Wellspal- When someone asks me a question here I like to respond-it's usually fun and always polite. But I feel that this must be my last post on this subject-I hope you understand.
It is interesting that you saw fit to comment on the statement about not using carpenters glue. My recommending it "here" and using it "there" are two different things. I still believe it is a better choice for Agrarian than epoxy.
Carpenters glue can be dissolved readily with vinegar and then rinsed with water. Epoxy must be scraped out and you run the risk of scraping through a ply. Even though I may be dead in twenty years I don't want to give any future luthiers any headaches.
I am sorry if I sounded condescending-but my aim here is first to have fun talking about basses and second to use my experience to give players some info if thay are interested. There is amazingly little literature out there on bass lutherie. Sometimes it is tough to express your knowledge without sounding like a know it all.
My rant is currently down for a revamp. I should get to it soon. Thanks, Jeff

Jeff, Yes this has dragged on too long now and it is my fault. I realized the crux of our debate was based on me assuming that removing old carpenters glue and removing old epoxy was the same process. In the furniture repair business it pretty much is. Chair joints and other wooden furniture joints have way too much glue in them for vinegar to do much good. With your help it has finally dawned on me that the THIN film of (yellow)glue associated with any bass joint is possible to remove with vinegar. So not only will I stop comparing apples to oranges, basses to chairs I'll save the epoxy for the furniture side of my business. I totally agree with your assesment. I apologize if I was impolite along the way.

For anyone interested, there is a great article on glues at www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/index.asp
If this address gets messed up just find the main page to FineWoodworking magazine, look under Feature Library. Go to Materials. The article is called A Working Guide To Glues.

...and all I said was "Epoxy ?"

Agrarian?

Farmerdude has been affectionately refered to as Agrarian from time to time.

Originally posted by wellspal
Agrarian?


WILLSPAR,

Check your private messages - I sent you one about the "Name Game".

DURRL

I get it!

Thanks Chris. I hear that.

Please DO NOT reach inside your bass and try to rip out the bass bar, or rip it loose. This is a good way of taking the top part that it's glued to along with it especially with a carved top bass. I am continually amazed at the advice I read from people with no experience or knowledge about bass repair telling someone else what they should or should not do to their instrument. I've been making and repairing basses for nearly 30 years and have worked on basses from plywood wrecks to those worth $100,000. You probably wouldn't tell your Doctor how to do heart surgery and you'd resent someone like me trying to tell you how to do your job. You knew more about your job after two days than I will ever know about it, so respect your repairperson and respect your own lack of knowledge in this area.
My evil twin tells me however that you should go ahead and do what you want, because when you finally have to bring it to someone like me, I'll be able and have to charge you five times what it would have cost originally.
Secondly hyde glue when mixed and applied properly to a properly cleaned join will hold for hundreds of years, it's stronger than carpenters glue, and has scientificaly been shown to hold up better under heat and adverse conditions. Carpenters glue leaves a film between the pieces and doesn't transfer vibration as well. I can't tell you how many basses I've had to repair that were first repaired with carpenters glue so that the repair would last forever; forever sometimes being less than a week.

It's your bass. If you want to have some fun and repair it yourself go ahead, but I'm leaving surgery to my doctor, my car to my mechanic and you should do the same with your instrument, if you care about it.

I guess we know who we won't find at Home Depot

You don't question your car mechanic or doctor? What a nice world that must be.

Martin, but seriously, if you carefully read this whole thread aren't all your concerns addressed? The warning about tearing inner veneer, the huge glue discussion, making it clear I have SOME knowledge and experience not ZERO as you suggest. Nobody is dis'ing an experienced bass luthier by offering some m.a.s.h. type advice on a PLYWOOD bass. The original question did imply farmerdude couldn't spend the bucks on removing the top and was looking for creative solutions. As long as you are making it perfectly clear that players should bring their broke basses to you or someone like you, which is what? about 30 guys in 50 states (unless your in New York of course) why not just share with the class what you would charge for this repair.

Just find where the bass bar sits, get out your screw gun and sink some sheetrock screws right through the top. They'll pull that sucker right up! No, seriously, a good repair guy (or gal) can unzip part of the lower bout, and get some strong clamps in there thru the f-hole. The reason the lower bout needs to be opened is to work the glue in on a long blade of some sort. I'd probably use hide if I saw that it would close up. I agree with Sir Bollbach about covering the end in linen...

Hello,
Can anyone tell me if there is any dependency between the bass bar tension and the tone color and volume of the bass sound?
Could you discuss the statements below:
Too strongly tensioned bass bar makes bass louder (but for the player only - not in general) boosts high and mid frequencies lacking the depth.
Low tensioned bass bar increases the lowest frequencies, bass vibrates more freely. For the player, bass tends to be quiet, but the audience can hear it well.
Is that true?
-sorry for my strange English:)