I reviewed some theory on minor scales last night and one of the scales reviewed was c minor.

The exercise talked about the next tone up, so when I worked out the scale according to the W-H-W-W-H-W-W and my understanding of the sharp/flats, I came up with:

C D D# F G G# A# (C)

Now I know I'm incorrect because you can;t have the "same" note in a scale but I don't get it...If I'm moving UP in pitch, it should sharpen the note.

Am I right to assume that when I'm moving UP in pitch, it's referred to as the Eb Major, and when moving DOWN in pitch, it's the c minor scale? Or am I missing something else completely?

Thanks again TB.

Sharps and flats do not correspond to moving up or down as you described, but to key, so you are right--you can't have the same letter twice in a scale. No matter what scale you are doing, you need all seven letters: C D E F G A B. To make c minor look right, it must be C D E-flat, F, G, A-flat, B-flat. C minor is what as known as the relative minor of e-flat major because both are the 3-flat keys. Frankly, the best thing to do is memorize the keys and their relative minors and be able to recognize them immediately when you see sharps and flats in the key signature.




Scott

Alright, my bad, thanks for the heads up:)

I always thought if I play a G, then go UP a semitone, we call it G#.
I also always thought if I play an A, then go DOWN a semitone, it's called Ab.

That was a simple concept for my feeble brain to comprehend. :D

So in trying to comprehend this new information a bit further, I took the time to look up the Cycle of Fifths and resolve/compare the Eb Major and c minor scales (the 2 "3 flat" key signatures), and came up with:

Eb Major - Eb F G Ab Bb C D (Eb)
c minor - C D Eb F B Ab Bb (C)

Just doing that alone helped me understand their relationship to the key sigs (not the fretboard), but to me it still seems counter-intuitive to call a note flat when you're moving UP to it...That's gonna be a fun habit to break :help:

What might make it easier for you to use A minor. A minor is the Relative minor of the C Major scale. Which means it has the same notes it just starts at the 6th degree of the related major scale C.

-------------W W H W W W H
C Major C D E F G A B C
----------------------------W H W W H W W
A Minor------------------A B C D E F G A


Study that for a few minutes and you can see the how they are both same notes, but minor by starting on a different degree the order of whole and half shifts to correct natural minor order.

FWIW, I find it easiest to 'remember' the relative minor by moving 3 half steps down from whatever note I am on ... which is also an octave lower of the 6th of that major scale ... or easier yet, I play with a finger to a fret, so whatever my pinky is on, my pointer would be the relative minor ...

What might make it easier for you to use A minor. A minor is the Relative minor of the C Major scale. Which means it has the same notes it just starts at the 6th degree of the related major scale C.

-------------W W H W W W H
C Major C D E F G A B C
----------------------------W H W W H W W
A Minor------------------A B C D E F G A

Study that for a few minutes and you can see the how they are both same notes, but minor by starting on a different degree the order of whole and half shifts to correct natural minor order.

Thanks. I spent the few minutes and can see that both scales, a minor and C Major, draw from the same set of notes - C D E F G A B and that the a minor starts at the 6th position, being the note A. If I get some time, I'll go through the rest of the scales in the Cycle of Fifths and check the others out.

But my original question related to sharps/flats and my initial mis-understanding that you call an enharmonic note a sharp when moving UP to it, and a flat when moving DOWN to it, and trying to apply that concept to the scales.

So, from the perspective of my original question at least, I still don't quite understand how naturalising the scale I'm working on helps me understand the concept that you can move UP to a flat note (ie play a higher note). I hope to be slowly getting it thanks to TB and similar resources, but today I can still recall many many examples where musicians have told me "no, not the B, the B FLAT" or "no, not the A, the A sharp"...

But again, thanks for answering...it all helps and usually gives me plently to chew on...often, too much :bassist:

Whether you call it C minor or Eb major depends on where you're rooting yourself. If you call the C the root, then the third will be Eb and a minor third up from the root (C).

C - root
D
Eb - minor third
F
G - fifth

If you call it Eb major, then the third will be G, a major third up from the root (Eb).

Eb - root
F
G - third
Ab
Bb - fifth

Ab and Bb are A and B because they follow G. You can't call it "G, G#" because you can only have one G in a scale.

Whether you call a note sharp or flat has to do with which note you're modifying. You should learn the cycle of 5ths.

Starting in C major, when you go to G major, a fifth up from C, you have to sharp the F - it was an F, now it's an F#. You don't call it a Gb or an E## because there's already a G, and there's already an E, the only note that changed is F.

D major will have two sharps, A major will have three sharps etc. So when you go up the cycle of fifths, you sharp one note per shift.

When you go down the cycle of fifths, you end up having to flat a note each time. F major (a fifth down from C) will have a flat B because the scale goes F, G, A, Bb, C, D, E, F. The B isn't flat because you came up or went down*, but because B is the note between A and C, and in this case it's a half step lower.

Every scale will have one of each note.

If it moved up it'll be sharp.

If it moved down it'll be flat.

It has nothing to do with which direction you approached it from, and everything to do with where it used to be.

* Actually, the B is flat because you went "down" but in this case "down" is "down the cycle of fifths" which is where some of your confusion is coming from. If you ever heard "sharp going up, flat going down" they were referring to the cycle of fifths, which describes every possible key starting at C - no sharps, no flats.

But my original question related to sharps/flats and my initial mis-understanding that you call an enharmonic note a sharp when moving UP to it, and a flat when moving DOWN to it, and trying to apply that concept to the scales.


I was trying to show where the half-step fall in relation to parent scale. I thought that was part of the problem. As for enharmonics, they are used to make something easier to read. In teaching especially in beginning better NOT to use enharmonics. Better for student to see the sequence of note names to understand the concept. But key to remember using enharmonic does not change the pitch, just the name being given to it. So a A# and Bb are same pitch.

When talking about something like your Eb major/C minor the key signature handles the note adjustments for the scale. Same notes going up and down, no need for enharmonics. That why there are key signatures.

Just keep in mind enharmonics are a connivence to make something easy to read, and no rules I know of on when to use a sharp or a flat for an enharmonic. For learning theory best to avoid them so pitch relationships are easier to see.

Try to think of moving up from D to Eb as moving up a minor second from D to E which makes the E flattened.

I would also suggest not being too rigid about only having one of each letter name in a scale, you can run into problems when you get into some of the scales with more than 7 notes before the octave.

Gulp! :help: Thanks guys! I learned bass by reverse engineerings tabs. A lot. So I don't get a lot of the infomation you guys are telling me, but thanks for the effort!! I'm starting bass lessons late January. Honest.

Whether you call it C minor or Eb major depends on where you're rooting yourself.

I don't get "rooting yourself" in that I don't see how it applies to playing Californication by the Red Hot Chili Peppers for example...


If you call the C the root, then the third will be Eb and a minor third up from the root (C).

Nope, not sticking. How would I relate that to Enter Sandman by Metallica?


You should learn the cycle of 5ths.

That I understand. Whats the fastest way to learn it? Should I be playing it on the bass starting from the natural scale all around anti-clockwise? Or sitting on my butt studying it? Both?


Starting in C major, when you go to G major,

Laugh if you will, but why would I go from C maj to G maj? How does that relate to playing Hail Hail by Pearl Jam (wild verse riff, love it!!)? Or does it relate to free jamming where your guitarist noodles away while calling notes every 32 bars or so?
Is it just a reading aid?
Why don't I get this stuff? :D

I was trying to show where the half-step fall in relation to parent scale. I thought that was part of the problem. As for enharmonics, they are used to make something easier to read. In teaching especially in beginning better NOT to use enharmonics. Better for student to see the sequence of note names to understand the concept. But key to remember using enharmonic does not change the pitch, just the name being given to it. So a A# and Bb are same pitch.

When talking about something like your Eb major/C minor the key signature handles the note adjustments for the scale. Same notes going up and down, no need for enharmonics. That why there are key signatures.

Just keep in mind enharmonics are a connivence to make something easy to read, and no rules I know of on when to use a sharp or a flat for an enharmonic. For learning theory best to avoid them so pitch relationships are easier to see.
So learning the Cycle of Fifths is more an aid to assist in my sight reading, not so much playing or writing songs? OK, I'll keep that in mind, I'm trying to learn a few songs by ear (finally) and thought if I could find or stumble on a few correct notes (I have 2 riffs so far), I could use some theory to work the rest out or at least give me hints.

Try to think of moving up from D to Eb as moving up a minor second from D to E which makes the E flattened.

I would also suggest not being too rigid about only having one of each letter name in a scale, you can run into problems when you get into some of the scales with more than 7 notes before the octave.
Not being rigid about it? Phew, now that, I can handle.

Thanks :bassist:

So learning the Cycle of Fifths is more an aid to assist in my sight reading, not so much playing or writing songs? OK, I'll keep that in mind,

I didn't say anything about the Circle of Fifths. The Circle of Fifths is used for different things. It shows the order of the key signatures as accidental are added to create the next key. It is also is the strong chord resolution i.e V down to I. You hear many people say they practice everything in all twelve keys. Many people practice things in the order of Circle of fifths. It has a musical sound moving by fifths. So the Circle of Fifths is just a tool.

For writing songs the Circle of Fifths gives your the V-I resolution that is common, but there are other strong and weak root movements of chords. As you learn songs you will start seeing common chord movements, each style of music has chord movements that are common to the style. If you study more theory you will learn about harmonized scales and that helps in figuring out songs. You will learn strong and weak root movement for chords that will help write songs.

I would say at this point just start figuring out songs and write down the chord progressions. Even if you can only get the root movements. Then after you have few tunes you like figured out, start comparing and look for similar chord movements in the songs. That will help for figuring out more songs in the future and give you ideas for writing your own songs.

I think you're on the right track. You're starting to make some good connections.

Look up the definition for "enharmonic".

Joe

Sorry if I confused you, I was trying to answer the "when is a note X# or Yb?" question. This stuff - the theory, is the language we used to describe music. Your question is sort of like "what's the difference between 'I is, I am, and I was?'" So I went all grammar book on you.

Anyway, songs have keys. Californication is probably in A minor, Enter Sandman is probably in E minor. I'm not sure about the Pearl Jam song, I'm not sure I ever heard it.

The key tells you where home is. You move away from home to create tension in a song, and you return there to resolve it. This is what I mean by "where you're rooting yourself."

Once you learn a little theory, you'll be able to pick out the key of the song either by looking at the tab, or by playing along. This will help you figure out songs, jam, etc. because you'll have a map of the territory. Maybe you won't know the exact route they're going to take, but you know the places they might go and when.

You'll know that when they return home in the key of C minor, they're going to go to C minor. And you'll know that to create tension they may play an F minor chord or a G minor chord, so you'll be able to figure out where they went without too much difficulty.

This way when you're in a jam session, and the guitarist calls out a new chord to play, it's on the map and it's somewhat expected and you can get there easily. Or when you're figuring out a new song, and they get to the chorus you'll say "Oh, they're probably going to resolve & go home" and try there first before somewhere else.

I would say at this point just start figuring out songs and write down the chord progressions. Even if you can only get the root movements. Then after you have few tunes you like figured out, start comparing and look for similar chord movements in the songs. That will help for figuring out more songs in the future and give you ideas for writing your own songs.
Thanks again! I've been doing what you suggest, I called a band last week and have 2 original songs to learn so there's no cheating off tabs...I've been forced to learn them by ear and I know that by finding the main progressions, I can at least match the main pitches...is that "in key?"

I think you're on the right track. You're starting to make some good connections.

Look up the definition for "enharmonic".

Thanks! It doesn't feel like I am making any connections. :)
enharmonic - an enharmonic is a note (or key signature) which is the equivalent of some other note (or key signature), but spelled differently.

Alright, now I knew there were enharmonic notes (ie, A#/Bb are enharmonic) but I didn't know key sigs were referred to as enhamronic as well.

Sorry if I confused you, I was trying to answer the "when is a note X# or Yb?" question. This stuff - the theory, is the language we used to describe music.
Your question is sort of like "what's the difference between 'I is, I am, and I was?'" So I went all grammar book on you.

Please, don't apologise...I was confused before you answered anyway and it wouldn't surprise me if my questions are just as confusing to you guys as the answers are to me :)

And I hope I didn't sound too frustrated in my last reply...it gets me down sometimes that I can play my basses pretty good, that people listen to songs I've written and think it sounds good too ... so it's a bit depressing to not "get" the theory behind it all...


Anyway, songs have keys. Californication is probably in A minor, Enter Sandman is probably in E minor. I'm not sure about the Pearl Jam song, I'm not sure I ever heard it.

First, I'd encourage you to listen to Hail Hail...I'm not much of a Pearl Jam fan myself but that bassline is one of my favourite lines at the moment, I love the verse riff and the runs during the chorus and suspect he may be using a fretless, but I digress :)

Second, I understand songs "have keys", I'm just not sure what it means as such. I have the first 5 Metallica ambums in bass standard notation/tab form and I've looked through them to find the various key signatures (not that there is much variation haha), and I do understand that if a song is in a key signature that flattens the B, then all the B's maked on the staff will be marked as natural notes and assumed flattened until the key changes. I (think I) get key signatures from that perspective, and hope to be slowly learning to relate them to my own song writing and free jamming. For me I just come up with a riff or two then build a song from that on what sounds good...for all I know one song could change keys all over the place and be "wrong".


The key tells you where home is. You move away from home to create tension in a song, and you return there to resolve it. This is what I mean by "where you're rooting yourself."

Once you learn a little theory, you'll be able to pick out the key of the song either by looking at the tab, or by playing along.

This will help you figure out songs, jam, etc. because you'll have a map of the territory. Maybe you won't know the exact route they're going to take, but you know the places they might go and when.

You'll know that when they return home in the key of C minor, they're going to go to C minor. And you'll know that to create tension they may play an F minor chord or a G minor chord, so you'll be able to figure out where they went without too much difficulty.

This way when you're in a jam session, and the guitarist calls out a new chord to play, it's on the map and it's somewhat expected and you can get there easily. Or when you're figuring out a new song, and they get to the chorus you'll say "Oh, they're probably going to resolve & go home" and try there first before somewhere else.
Hey this part relates to when I play Knocking on Heavens Door in one band and we start on G and I fumble through the progressions making a total mess most of the time, but I still seem to "know" when that G is coming around again :)

I feel like a kid in a lolly shop...so much to choose from :)

Thanks again guys I really do appreciate the help despite my shortness sometimes

Thanks again! I've been doing what you suggest, I called a band last week and have 2 original songs to learn so there's no cheating off tabs...I've been forced to learn them by ear and I know that by finding the main progressions, I can at least match the main pitches...is that "in key?"


I'm not quite sure what you are asking. If you figure out the progression and you know about harmonized major scale. Then you can figure out the key. Don't forget songs can and do change keys during course of the song. Another gotcha there are exceptions to all rules, like Rock's use of Power chords (chords without thirds.) Power chords can move in non-diatonic ways because of lack of thirds. Then if Blues like then you will have dominant chords all over that the key and harmonized scale won't. So theory gives you a starting point and good first guess at what might be going on.

So do you have the figure out the progression and make your own bass line, or are you suppose to transcribe the bass lines. Either way you need to figure out the progression and chords to know what notes are available to you.

I hope that helps somehow. Knowing theory is important not because it has all the answers, it mainly helps you guess better using the guidelines it lays out.

I'm not quite sure what you are asking.

Sorry. I'm asking what "in key" actually means, without having to ask "what does in key actually mean". :D

I used to think matching a song note for note was considered "playing in key", and if I hit a wrong note, I'm "out of key"... but I'm pretty confident today that that's not right, it seems to me today that "playing in key" is more akin to the available notes you can choose from WITHIN the key you're currently playing in, so when we're playing in the key of E and I do a bass run that doesn't quite work but uses the notes from the key of E...and I manage to resolve to the next chord as per everyone else, it doesn't sound as bad as when I choose notes from another key or worse still, miss the progression altogether for the sake of ending my run and end up playing an A when everyone else resolves to G and I get "the look" :rollno:

Sorry, I'm waffling while thinking aloud...

If you figure out the progression and you know about harmonized major scale. Then you can figure out the key.

Cool, I look forward to being able to do that. SO far I've learned most of the first song, half the second song by ear...I wouldn't be sure what key the song is in as such :)

The intro to one song is DD, C, C#, D#D#D#D# twice, and then AA, G, G#, A#A#A#A# twice...or I guess it could be DD, C, Db, EbEbEbEb and GG, A, Ab, BbBbBbBb...I play them on the A and E strings. To my tab brain, it's 55, 3, 4, 6666 ... twice on the A string, then twice on the E string, then they play a G (3rd fret E string).

I also find that G on the 3rd fret E, or C on the 3rd fret A are good places to hide if I'm not sure what they're doing...if that makes sense :)

So, if I look at all those possible notes in the COF (sharps or flats), I should just find the one scale that uses all those notes, right? And that makes the key the song is in, right...provided they are following the rules?



So do you have to figure out the progression and make your own bass line, or are you suppose to transcribe the bass lines. Either way you need to figure out the progression and chords to know what notes are available to you.

They never actually said what they wanted me to do with the songs as such, they were emailed to me to give me an idea of the style they play, and whether I liked it.

I liked the songs so much that I emailed them back the same day asking for an audition ... so I figured why not transcribe the current basslines best I can, I need to work on my ear training anyway...then if I get that far, start looking at the kinds of changes I could make if they did ask me what changes I'd consider making to the song, given the opportunity to contribute such ideas.

I figured spending my time on their songs that way minimises their workload with me on the day of the audition and shows the band I pick stuff up quickly and hopefully shows a level of commitment and dedication they are looking for...it's my goal to have both songs down cold for the first audition and I'm a lot closer than I ever expected to be.


I hope that helps somehow. Knowing theory is important not because it has all the answers, it mainly helps you guess better using the guidelines it lays out.
Mate thank you, it all helps me hey! I really do appreciate the time you guys on TB keep taking to tell me stuff you guys are probably all sick of repeating :)

Sorry. I'm asking what "in key" actually means, without having to ask "what does in key actually mean". :D

I used to think matching a song note for note was considered "playing in key", and if I hit a wrong note, I'm "out of key"... but I'm pretty confident today that that's not right, it seems to me today that "playing in key" is more akin to the available notes you can choose from WITHIN the key you're currently playing in, so when we're playing in the key of E and I do a bass run that doesn't quite work but uses the notes from the key of E...and I manage to resolve to the next chord as per everyone else, it doesn't sound as bad as when I choose notes from another key or worse still, miss the progression altogether for the sake of ending my run and end up playing an A when everyone else resolves to G and I get "the look" :rollno:

Sorry, I'm waffling while thinking aloud...

)

Even playing "in Key" there are what some call Avoid Notes. This gets into building chords. The key is important for some info, but the actual chord brings in their own issues. So I'll use Eb Major since you mentioned it before. If in Key of Eb and you have a I chord Eb Major the avoid note is Ab. In the Chord Eb, the Ab is the 4th/11th and in a major chord the 4th clashes with the Major 3rd a halfstep below. I add to the though process in Key of Eb Major on a C Minor chord the VI of the key the 4th/11th is F. In a minor chord the 4th/11th is a good note, because the b3 of C minor is a whole step away.

So there is a lot to think about in the beginning. After awhile of playing you internalize this stuff you just automaticly avoid notes certain notes. Your ear will help you learn avoid notes. One last comment avoid notes isn't a great term, because any note can work, just some require special handling. But that is whole another topic.

I think that we need to narrow the focus of your question and the answers we give you. We are all over the map (and it's really easy to do that).

Theory can be difficult to understand.

The application of the theory can be even more difficult to understand (even thought application is the goal).

We should keep things as simple as possible since you're just starting out with your music theory skills.

Go to:
http://www.musictheory.net/

You'll find some interactive lessons that will help you understand some of the stuff we're talking about. After you try the lessons a few times, we can focus on what you're really trying to ask. ;)

Joe

I think that we need to narrow the focus of your question and the answers we give you. We are all over the map (and it's really easy to do that).

Theory can be difficult to understand.

The application of the theory can be even more difficult to understand (even thought application is the goal).

We should keep things as simple as possible since you're just starting out with your music theory skills.

Go to:
http://www.musictheory.net/

You'll find some interactive lessons that will help you understand some of the stuff we're talking about. After you try the lessons a few times, we can focus on what you're really trying to ask. ;)

Joe

Thanks everyone for your replies...I can get "avoid" notes...those are the one's I play when everyone around me responds with an "eeeeew" and faces slightly away from my amp :cool:

And Joe, thats some solid advice there, thanks. Sometimes it's hard to know what I'm asking, or I think I'm asking the right questions only to get correct answers on another topic.

And I laughed when I read your suggestion to review lessons on musictheory.net. I was on that site reviewing the minor scales section when I incorrectly resolved the minor scale formula to sharps, then compared it to the COF. That is the point I got confused and started asking questions on TB :D

Thanks again guys believe it or not with your help I know more than I did before I asked :bassist: :bassist: